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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 01:21:57
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Would the archdevils of the Nine Hells benefit from having Lorekeepers among their subjects? If yes, how?
If you’re curious why I’m asking this, well… In Feist’s novels, there are demons called Archivists, who were under the leadership of the Demon King Dahun. They took care of all information/lore pertaining to their kingdom and their kind. Their existence was largely due to Dahun’s desire to establish some sort of ‘order’ in his domain, and ultimately, their survival.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 26 Feb 2012 01:22:51
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 02:24:55
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I would think they definitely would - they are lawful in the extreme - I would imagine their records go back to the very beginning (of everything).
Great train of thought. 
Picture it; Demons would have to ask devils about their own history, because demons would not know anything beyond their own memories and what they've been told. Demon-knowledge would only go back as far as the eldest demon.
You've just given me a great idea for a story - A vast (city-sized) library on the very edge of the hells, so that a part of it touches the Yugoloth lands. I can't picture Demons getting permission, but perhaps certain 'loth retrievers could enter and get the information a demon required (I'm picturing something of a 'neutral zone' outside the doors on that side of the lore-city). In fact, many Planers - and perhaps some primes - could be camped outside seeking entrance into the Infernal Library of the Damned.
You know... I think there may already be something like that...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2012 02:38:08 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 02:53:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You know... I think there may already be something like that...
That's just the Bundesarchiv at Koblenz and the Germans are very sensitive to jokes about it. They're not infernal, just somewhat bureaucratic. There's certainly no organised attempt to make them suck the souls from visitors, it's just an unfortunate side effect. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 03:36:05
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No, seriously - as I was typing that I recalled reading something similar - it may have been 3rd party.
It could have been in the book SECRETS - I really liked that tome. Sadly, no way of checking now.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 03:59:44
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There's a fanfiction entitled Library of the Damned.
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It's incredibly difficult to maintain a 'neutral zone' in the Nine Hells. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 04:10:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's incredibly difficult to maintain a 'neutral zone' in the Nine Hells.
Indeed. While I can imagine a Baateezu library*, I also imagine the keepers thereof hoarding all the lore for themselves alone**.
A better bet would be a baernoloth structure, probably on Gehenna or the Gray Waste. Maintained day-to-day by arcanaloths. With services available to all fiends and even anyone else who got there, with merely nominal prices... such as promices of service, new lore not already in the library, their immortal souls and other trifles.***
Of course, all the truly valuable secrets (in a cosmic sense) would be hidden and accessible only to the inscrutable founders of the library.****
*Because knowledge is power.
**See above.
***Because while knowledge might be translated into power at some point, power is and will always be power.
****Because the wise know that knowledge that you alone have is the foundation of true power in the multiverse and anything so precious must be surrounded by a bodyguard of lies. The fact that this allows the baernoloths to both have their cake and sell pieces of cake for indecent prices is merely one of the consequences of being the ones with the real knowledge while everyone else is eating lies. Yes, the cake is a lie. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 04:45:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Would the archdevils of the Nine Hells benefit from having Lorekeepers among their subjects? If yes, how?
If you’re curious why I’m asking this, well… In Feist’s novels, there are demons called Archivists, who were under the leadership of the Demon King Dahun. They took care of all information/lore pertaining to their kingdom and their kind. Their existence was largely due to Dahun’s desire to establish some sort of ‘order’ in his domain, and ultimately, their survival.
Knowledge is power, and we all know that demons crave power...so why not? 
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Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 26 Feb 2012 18:22:16 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 05:37:12
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Knowledge is power, and we all know that demons crave power...so why not?
-Absolutely. Especially since, you know, they're engaged in a more or less endless conflict with their enemies and all. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 05:54:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It could have been in the book SECRETS - I really liked that tome. Sadly, no way of checking now.
You've mentioned this book more than once... Who published it? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 16:41:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Would the archdevils of the Nine Hells benefit from having Lorekeepers among their subjects? If yes, how?
If you’re curious why I’m asking this, well… In Feist’s novels, there are demons called Archivists, who were under the leadership of the Demon King Dahun. They took care of all information/lore pertaining to their kingdom and their kind. Their existence was largely due to Dahun’s desire to establish some sort of ‘order’ in his domain, and ultimately, their survival.
Wow, I never really thought about this.... but yeah, that would make sense amongst the devils. However, I can't see their libraries as being similar to ours where you could just walk in and open a book after killing the owner of the library. I see the devious minds of the devils as putting weird strictures on things. Maybe the information is stored in crystals, and you need to provide a sacrifice to a "librarian" in order to unlock information. Such sacrifice might be in the form of blood... but it could also be in the form of knowledge which is sucked from your mind and stored in another "container". Hell, you may not even know that its taking your knowledge from you.... even more insidious.
What other weird strictures can people see being needed to both obtain information and protect it in a knowledge repository in hell? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 16:59:01
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Interesting. Days to years of servitude is also a possible 'condition.' The length of time would depend on the kind of information one wishes to know---the more sensitive and important the lore, the longer is the time of servitude. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 17:43:50
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| -Oh yeah, there definitley would be some kind of catch to access any information such a library would have. Information is a weapon, and if there's any race out there that knows how to extort information as a kind of currency, it'd be Devils. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 18:01:22
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I think it would also benefit the archdevils if their 'libraries' and Lorekeepers are not only open to the denizens of the Nine Hells, but to all the curious, including human conjurors and desperate wizards. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 18:22:25
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| Of course, many higher power demons/devils are geniuses in their own right...so the need to keep physical records may be moot. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 19:16:44
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When too many customers come to your store, it'd help a great deal if you have assistants. Multiple transactions can be done at the same time. Similarly, having your own brand of Lorekeepers would facilitate faster and more transactions, and bigger profits (servitude, power, and artifacts of the knowledge-seekers). |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 19:18:13
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Of course, many higher power demons/devils are geniuses in their own right...so the need to keep physical records may be moot.
Nah.
No matter how many orders of magnitude you postulate their memories as being better than human, the amount of possible information is still going to be more.
An efficient use for genius-level intelligence is knowing where to look for information that applies to a situation, not in memorising reams of data. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 19:51:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Of course, many higher power demons/devils are geniuses in their own right...so the need to keep physical records may be moot.
Nah.
No matter how many orders of magnitude you postulate their memories as being better than human, the amount of possible information is still going to be more.
An efficient use for genius-level intelligence is knowing where to look for information that applies to a situation, not in memorising reams of data.
Agreed.
And besides, though it doesn't happen that often, some humans managed to trick the wisest of demons. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 19:53:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Interesting. Days to years of servitude is also a possible 'condition.' The length of time would depend on the kind of information one wishes to know---the more sensitive and important the lore, the longer is the time of servitude.
Very nice. I like this. They might use the servants as library guards... or for more "expensive" lore, maybe use them as agents to retrieve other items or lore. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 20:01:19
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Interesting. Days to years of servitude is also a possible 'condition.' The length of time would depend on the kind of information one wishes to know---the more sensitive and important the lore, the longer is the time of servitude.
Very nice. I like this. They might use the servants as library guards... or for more "expensive" lore, maybe use them as agents to retrieve other items or lore.
I think the biggest challenge to the archdevils is ensuring they never get cheated, specially if the ones seeking the lost/forbidden/infernal lore are nearly as wise and powerful as they are, like Larloch's lich-servitors, Szass Tam, or even Halaster. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 20:34:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Of course, many higher power demons/devils are geniuses in their own right...so the need to keep physical records may be moot.
Nah.
No matter how many orders of magnitude you postulate their memories as being better than human, the amount of possible information is still going to be more.
An efficient use for genius-level intelligence is knowing where to look for information that applies to a situation, not in memorising reams of data.
Tell that to the Rain Man |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 22:07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Interesting. Days to years of servitude is also a possible 'condition.' The length of time would depend on the kind of information one wishes to know---the more sensitive and important the lore, the longer is the time of servitude.
Very nice. I like this. They might use the servants as library guards... or for more "expensive" lore, maybe use them as agents to retrieve other items or lore.
I think the biggest challenge to the archdevils is ensuring they never get cheated, specially if the ones seeking the lost/forbidden/infernal lore are nearly as wise and powerful as they are, like Larloch's lich-servitors, Szass Tam, or even Halaster.
Or sending retribution afterwards if they were cheated. That could also be a mission that they might send servants on... and many demons and devils might leap at the chance to go reap vengeance AND get the information they want. Very interesting topic. Glad you brought it up. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 22:29:10
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Tell that to the Rain Man
As soon as you point out the practical utility that his 'gift' has, over and above having an iPhone app that does it.
Alternatively, as soon as he memorises the Library of Congress and can refer to any information in there as fast or faster as an intelligent person with a familiarity with methods of information storage could look it up. And this is merely one tiny fraction of the available information in one country on one planet on one Prime Material world.
It doesn't really matter how smart you think your fiends are. They still can't memorise any appreciable fraction of the avaialble information on the infinite planes. Even managing to remember where to look would be quite a feat.
A genius isn't someone who can perform a fairly pointless trick of memory, anyway. A fairly small computer chip can store more data than any living human. The difference lies in what they can do with it. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 22:29:39
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| A human genius once said "never memorize something you can look up" |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 23:07:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
A human genius once said "never memorize something you can look up"
Did you memorize that quote? |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 23:08:59
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| I remembered it existed, and looked it up to get the exact wording ;) |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 23:09:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Tell that to the Rain Man
As soon as you point out the practical utility that his 'gift' has, over and above having an iPhone app that does it.
Alternatively, as soon as he memorises the Library of Congress and can refer to any information in there as fast or faster as an intelligent person with a familiarity with methods of information storage could look it up. And this is merely one tiny fraction of the available information in one country on one planet on one Prime Material world.
It doesn't really matter how smart you think your fiends are. They still can't memorise any appreciable fraction of the avaialble information on the infinite planes. Even managing to remember where to look would be quite a feat.
A genius isn't someone who can perform a fairly pointless trick of memory, anyway. A fairly small computer chip can store more data than any living human. The difference lies in what they can do with it.
Depending on technology for your answers leaves you extremely vulnerable as soon as that technology disappears.
A demon having a static target such as a giant "library" of knowledge would also be a constant source or stress and vast amounts of energy would be needed to defend it from their enemies. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 23:33:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
A human genius once said "never memorize something you can look up"
-I read a BBC article not long ago, that a study concluded that technology that aids in our ability to look things up (Wikipedia, search engines) is rewiring our brains to be more dependent on them. In the study sample group, the synapses having to do with memory are more or less unchanged, but the synapses that carried the impulses to look data up on Wikipedia, Google, and so on have strengthened. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:20:27
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| When Einstein said it he was talking about books and notes |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:20:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
A human genius once said "never memorize something you can look up"
-I read a BBC article not long ago, that a study concluded that technology that aids in our ability to look things up (Wikipedia, search engines) is rewiring our brains to be more dependent on them. In the study sample group, the synapses having to do with memory are more or less unchanged, but the synapses that carried the impulses to look data up on Wikipedia, Google, and so on have strengthened.
I suppose that study is done in UK and the subjects are British.
Unfortunately, it also speaks truth in my country.
But ultimately, it's all a matter of how you use the information. Memorizing is not the key. Familiarization is. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 27 Feb 2012 00:26:23 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:21:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
A human genius once said "never memorize something you can look up"
True in most cases, but not all. I myself memorize a lot (and hope I don't forget them soon) because I'm too lazy to look things up, even though I have internet access 24/7. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:26:11
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Tell that to the Rain Man
As soon as you point out the practical utility that his 'gift' has, over and above having an iPhone app that does it.
Alternatively, as soon as he memorises the Library of Congress and can refer to any information in there as fast or faster as an intelligent person with a familiarity with methods of information storage could look it up. And this is merely one tiny fraction of the available information in one country on one planet on one Prime Material world.
It doesn't really matter how smart you think your fiends are. They still can't memorise any appreciable fraction of the avaialble information on the infinite planes. Even managing to remember where to look would be quite a feat.
A genius isn't someone who can perform a fairly pointless trick of memory, anyway. A fairly small computer chip can store more data than any living human. The difference lies in what they can do with it.
Depending on technology for your answers leaves you extremely vulnerable as soon as that technology disappears.
A demon having a static target such as a giant "library" of knowledge would also be a constant source or stress and vast amounts of energy would be needed to defend it from their enemies.
Demon King Dahun (whom I mentioned in the OP, from Feist's novels) divided his "kingdom"'s denizens into warriors, archivists, civilian, and 'food.' The warriors were never to harm the archivists, and must protect them as much as possible. The archdevils of the Nine can do something similar. Not necessarily in those divisions, but at least have some guardians for the Lorekeepers. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Demon Lorekeepers
