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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 01:03:38
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Anilya's last words in The Shield of Weeping Ghosts are: "Remember it, vremyonni! Remember the power! Rashemen may yet have need of it!"
Is this just a crazy rambling of someone who knew she's about to die, or is Rashemen going to face a war or a cataclysm in the very near future? Had the durthans long ago gleamed into the terrible future and so was desperate to learn the secrets of Ilythiiri magic, the Breath, and the Word?
One more thing I'm curious about...Thaena once mentioned that the reason Thay had never managed to conquer Rashemen is because the Red Wizards, despite their effort, never learned of Rashemen's defenses/wards. What exactly are these wards? Some sort of Spirit Guardians? Or, considering they at times dabble in elven magic, a near-perfect replica of a mythal?
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 01:38:43
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| Rashemi possess only one secret weapon (that I know of) - they're stubborn as hell and refuse to ever submit or surrender, especially to Thay. There might be some Simbul's Children sorts wandering around, but although their powers might be epic they aren't federal. No mythals or megamagic that I'm aware of. Maybe some special favour (cheating) by the gods. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 01:49:30
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Simbul's children?! I'd love that...
Yes, I also consider a possible favor of the Three. But for the durthans to be desperate, it might be safe to assume that such favor is gradually waning. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4469 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 01:58:40
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Not really sure what year the Shield of Weeping Ghosts is set in, but from what the FRCG says, during Thay's civil war the Hathran and the Iron Lord took the opportunity to take out the Durthan threat in the Erech Forest and wiped them out.
The Wychlaran are still the true rulers of Rasheman as they control what the Iron Lord does and what-not. Old Ones, also known as Vremyonni, are still around as well and they delve into Itemcraft and Rituals.
I'd expect with the huge problems Arcane casters faced during the Spellplague, much of the Wychlaran turned to the Primal forces of their land, something that works well with the Othlor and large Fey that inhabit the land. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 02:41:02
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TSoWG was set in I376DR, Year of the Bent Blade, which was also the time when Thay was in civil war (1375-1478).
So the durthans are all dead? None was spared or survived? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 02:48:37
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If that were true then the Rashemi would lose a lot of military value. Their berserkers are too ferocious and stupid to be used en masse without magical control/guidance; the berserkers will all charge off and get themselves killed (doing a lot of damage of no little consequence) if the witches aren't around to keep them in check. It's part of the reason Rashemen doesn't fight much in foreign lands (aside from punitive retaliation and vengeance stuff); their power is concentrated in small units and individuals instead of dispersed through armies of fodder, their leaders are just too valuable to risk outside the borders.
So too bad that power's gone now, eh? Rashemen's got a bunch of dangerous berserkers ... even a pack of trolls can destroy berserkers, given time. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Jan 2011 02:52:59 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 03:05:47
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Indeed, Arik. The berserkers also tire, so if you send hundreds of fierce orcs in the fray, those Rashemi warriors could still be killed, as they were in TSoWG, though not by orcs, but by wraiths.
I'd like to think there are a few surviving durthans, perchance the oldest and most cunning in the lot. Even if the wychlaren don't recognize it, the durthans are valuable as additional defenders. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4469 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 03:15:27
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
So the durthans are all dead? None was spared or survived?
The FRCG quote was: "In what is now known as the Witch War of Rashemen, the Wychlaran and their commander, the Iron Lord, fought against the durthans and their allies. In the end, the Wychlaran prevailed and the durthans were no more."
It's unclear if they killed the Durthan to the last one, though personally I can't believe they killed them all. The Witch War was enough to drive them from their seat of power in Citadel Tralkarn so they have no basis for any sort of resistance. If anything, the Durthan are probably hermits who live among the evil fey of the Erech Forest. No central authority or coven, just individual witches who possible control a very small area.
@ Arik: If what was true? Reshemi have always been centric to their land and stay within it's borders. They don't seem to have the need to go about and lay waste to other contries. It's other countries that attempt to take Resheman. From Thay's old Red Wizards (and now Zsass Tam's undead armies) to the Demon haunted lands of the Nar, they're in a constant state of survival.
In addition, I don't think that every Reshemi warrior is a crazy, blood-thirsty barbarian who flys off the handle to kill at a moments notice. Many are Rangers and possibly (using 4E terms) Wardens of the land. For some good Reshemi lore, read the novel Bladesinger. It goes in depth about their culture and so forth.
But I do agree with you as to why they don't conquer other nations. They are to dispersed to actually have strong fighting ranks of soldiers. I think of them as mostly Gorilla war-fare tactics and using their knowledge of the land to hinder possible invaders. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 03:46:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
So the durthans are all dead? None was spared or survived?
The FRCG quote was: "In what is now known as the Witch War of Rashemen, the Wychlaran and their commander, the Iron Lord, fought against the durthans and their allies. In the end, the Wychlaran prevailed and the durthans were no more."
It's unclear if they killed the Durthan to the last one, though personally I can't believe they killed them all. The Witch War was enough to drive them from their seat of power in Citadel Tralkarn so they have no basis for any sort of resistance. If anything, the Durthan are probably hermits who live among the evil fey of the Erech Forest. No central authority or coven, just individual witches who possible control a very small area.
Or maybe they've formed a small coven, licking their wounds, and vowing to return. As I understand in TSoWG, the durthans' love for their land was as profound as the wychlaran's. So I don't think they would give up that easily.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
@ Arik: If what was true? Reshemi have always been centric to their land and stay within it's borders. They don't seem to have the need to go about and lay waste to other contries. It's other countries that attempt to take Resheman. From Thay's old Red Wizards (and now Zsass Tam's undead armies) to the Demon haunted lands of the Nar, they're in a constant state of survival.
That's what peaks my curiosity. How could they survive this long? What manner of defenses do they have that even the Red Wizards could not breach?
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
In addition, I don't think that every Reshemi warrior is a crazy, blood-thirsty barbarian who flys off the handle to kill at a moments notice.
True. Syrolf and Duras appeared to be still in control of themselves during their berserker-rage state.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4469 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 04:50:50
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Or maybe they've formed a small coven, licking their wounds, and vowing to return. As I understand in TSoWG, the durthans' love for their land was as profound as the wychlaran's. So I don't think they would give up that easily.
I wouldn't count their numbers in the 100's, honestly. Maybe if they pulled ALL of the Durthan's that were left over during the war, they might manage over 100, but that's just speculation. Honestly, the campaign setting for 4E was done in this way so you can say whichever end fits your fancy and it still wouldn't contradic canon (if anyone actually cares about such a thing). I could see small covens, 5-10 Durthans apiece plotting to overthrow the Hathrans again.
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
That's what peaks my curiosity. How could they survive this long? What manner of defenses do they have that even the Red Wizards could not breach?
The stronger connection Hathran have to the land. While there isn't some mystical field that covers their country, Hathran have appeard to have some connection to it and the creatures there in. This is what makes me believe alot of Hathran have gone a more "Primal" path and not so much of the Arcane or Divine. Couple the raw power they can muster from the fey, and spirital elements of the land and Berserker warriors and you can do alot of damage in a quick time.
Also, Thay really isn't any shape to march on anyone. Sure, Szass Tam has an army of undead, but apparently he was stopped in performing some great ritual to relase a demon lord called Eltab, but was stopped (no one knows by who). So a good reason he hasn't attack Rashemen fully is because his interests lie else where. As for the Nar, while I think they threaten the borders of Rashemen, I don't they can muster forces for a full-frontal assault either. Lite border skirmishes is probably what've been keeping Rashemi Berserkers busy for the most part.
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Darsson Spellmaker
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 05:34:44
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One of the Liriel novels had a brief mention that during the Time of Troubles, the magical wards and defenses blanketing the land fell, allowing a war party of Red Wizards/minions to kill a circle of Witches who were defending a Keep, and claim said Keep for a brief time (til the Rashemi took it back). Or at least, that's my recall of it. It's been years since I read the books, though.
Given their mastery of circle magic, and that some very powerful othlor still bide their time in Rashemen, it wouldn't surprise me if the Witches did have mythals and near-mythals in place. I could totally see Lady Yhelbruna leading a grand circle of Witches in casting an epic spell, although I personally would expect such a mythal to have more clerical and druidic powers with maybe an arcane ability or two thrown in for good measure.
But of course the real defense of Rashemen are the Witches themselves. Remember it was they who directly attacked Szass Tam and wounded him badly enough that he was forced to become a lich to continue his existence.
Also, aren't orglashes and telthors extremely easy to summon in Rashemen? Might be something as simple as that, if it comes down to them vs the skeletons/zombies/gnolls of the Red Wizards. |
"Know, O mages, that there is learning, and there is wisdom, and they are very far from being the same thing."--Azuth the High One, Utterances from the Altar: Collected Verbal Manifestations of the Divine and Most Holy Lord of Spells (holy chapbook, assembled by anonymous priests of Azuth circa 1358 DR)
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 06:47:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Also, Thay really isn't any shape to march on anyone. Sure, Szass Tam has an army of undead, but apparently he was stopped in performing some great ritual to relase a demon lord called Eltab, but was stopped (no one knows by who). So a good reason he hasn't attack Rashemen fully is because his interests lie else where. As for the Nar, while I think they threaten the borders of Rashemen, I don't they can muster forces for a full-frontal assault either. Lite border skirmishes is probably what've been keeping Rashemi Berserkers busy for the most part.
Tam is building his Dread Rings in the Sword Coast. I already asked this question before, but it seems like there's no clear-cut answer to it...Why there? Why so far when there's Aglarond or Rashemen that's just a stone's throw away? The Simbul is gone, so Aglarond may not be as well-defended as before. And Rashemen....well, Tam can devise some feasible tactics to conquer it. As Arik stated before, it could be that the disrupted original Rings rendered the nearby lands "unfit" for another set of the DRs. But when you mentioned about the Hathrans' strong connection to the land, I thought, there's little chance that the effects of the broken DRs reached Rashemen. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 06:58:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Darsson Spellmaker
But of course the real defense of Rashemen are the Witches themselves. Remember it was they who directly attacked Szass Tam and wounded him badly enough that he was forced to become a lich to continue his existence.
But at that time, there was only the school of necromancy to back him up. Now, he's got an entire country. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 08:48:54
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Szass can teleport to (almost) any place on Toril he desires. Maybe the Sword Coast just has scenery and a fresh sea breeze that takes his unbreath away? Maybe it's suitable because there's plenty of rich natural resources (ie, dead bodies, from places like Battle of Bones) scattered around which he can harvest? Maybe it's a good location precisely because those meddling Rashemi witches are so far away and thus can't interfere in great numbers? Maybe Szass is somehow conniving to siphon/steal divine power from stoned Karsus or from one of local godlings worshipped by the Uthgardt or Moonshae Ffolk? Or harvest divine power from the old Pits of Mystra? Maybe he wants access to all those wonderful portals littered around by elves and Waterdhavians, perhaps to contact (or escape/expand into) other planes? I'm voting for some kind of alliance with the daemonfey or even the phaerimm, or some Netherese artifact or site which Szass plans to exploit. Perhaps Szass is using the Sword Coast as a staging point to neutralize the Shadovar so he can properly access ancient Netheril. Maybe he chose his site just because he knows it will really bug Khelben a lot; he could have even left Thay to interlope on foreign turf and present weakness as a deliberate poison pill strategy, knowing he will lure (actually force) his enemies into attacking him on his terms.
I think the Rashemi are far from properly defended. But they've got stiff resistance and are defended well enough to not be a soft target. They probably use elven stealth, ambush, sniping, snares and traps, and other scummy guerilla tactics - although the berserkers are useless in that role and prefer face-to-face hack and slash instead. An invasion would involve an expensive and protracted military campaign which would require Szass's direct supervision to ensure success. The gains from taking Rashemen don't justify the costs of taking (and holding) it by force. If they pull out some megamagic surprise then the costs of invasion become prohibitive.
There's lots of soft targets elsewhere, and besides, the Rashemi aren't going anywhere. They even serve as a useful foreign buffer to insulate against other political power blocks - Szass doesn't care if they die, it saves him trouble and he still gets the bodies. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Jan 2011 09:11:37 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 09:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Simbul's children?! I'd love that...
Yes, I also consider a possible favor of the Three. But for the durthans to be desperate, it might be safe to assume that such favor is gradually waning.
I'd love that too!
The Liriel book mentioned was the first - "The Daughter of the Drow". There are a few more snippets from Fyodor's history in "Windwalker". |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 15:05:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Perhaps Szass is using the Sword Coast as a staging point to neutralize the Shadovar so he can properly access ancient Netheril.
That would be reckless of him. He is aware of Shade's might---of how it effortlessly conquered Sembia and obliterated Zhentil Keep. I don't think he would intend to attract further attention from Telamont.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
The gains from taking Rashemen don't justify the costs of taking (and holding) it by force. If they pull out some megamagic surprise then the costs of invasion become prohibitive.
I'm not so sure about that. Szass never cares if Thay perishes so long as he achieves his ultimate goal. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 04:43:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Darsson Spellmaker
But of course the real defense of Rashemen are the Witches themselves. Remember it was they who directly attacked Szass Tam and wounded him badly enough that he was forced to become a lich to continue his existence.
But at that time, there was only the school of necromancy to back him up. Now, he's got an entire country.
An entire devastated country with poisoned rivers and salted earth. I would imagine Thay united is significantly weaker due to the warfare. During the war(s) how many people do you think died? How many people do you think fled? I think it would be a huge proportion of the population.
Normal people are now food for the undead and presumably most of the Red Wizards who were neutral in the war fled the nation as well. It sounded as if he put all the resources into building the Dread Rings. They probably don't have much in the way of an economy anymore to finance the construction of anything. I don't think a nation ruled by undead would be filled with much economic vitality, they certainly no longer trade with their neighbors. Zombies and skeletons aren't as good laborers as real people needing the direction of Necromancers and being without intelligence, etc. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 05:07:36
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And that's cause for more trouble for Thay's [or Tam's] enemies. The undead do not tire. They do not eat, and are impervious to mundane weapons. Not to mention that Xingax left his legacy---twisted experiments of formidable sentient undead which Tam's Red Wizards or Szass Tam himself could still continue. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 08:19:12
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| They do have lots of vulnerabilities, no morale, lots of spells do bonus damage against undead, turn undead, take out the wizard who controls them and they're useless. And Rashemen has runescarred berserkers. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 09:23:57
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Taking out the wizards who control the undead is not as easy as it may seem, especially when Szass Tam himself warded them.
Those berserkers would be fodder to the dream vestige. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 13:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And that's cause for more trouble for Thay's [or Tam's] enemies. The undead do not tire. They do not eat, and are impervious to mundane weapons. Not to mention that Xingax left his legacy---twisted experiments of formidable sentient undead which Tam's Red Wizards or Szass Tam himself could still continue.
I loved Xingax, even though i am still a little confused as to exactly what he was. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 14:08:27
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And that's cause for more trouble for Thay's [or Tam's] enemies. The undead do not tire. They do not eat, and are impervious to mundane weapons. Not to mention that Xingax left his legacy---twisted experiments of formidable sentient undead which Tam's Red Wizards or Szass Tam himself could still continue.
I loved Xingax, even though i am still a little confused as to exactly what he was.
He is an atropal. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 14:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And that's cause for more trouble for Thay's [or Tam's] enemies. The undead do not tire. They do not eat, and are impervious to mundane weapons. Not to mention that Xingax left his legacy---twisted experiments of formidable sentient undead which Tam's Red Wizards or Szass Tam himself could still continue.
I loved Xingax, even though i am still a little confused as to exactly what he was.
He is an atropal.
Absolutely lovely |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 14:16:42
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Indeed. Someone I would love to hug. 
It would have been interesting to see how Szass Tam summoned him exactly. I'm almost sure no human was around that time. Only the undead can withstand his miasma of malevolence. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 03 Nov 2011 14:18:50 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 14:30:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Indeed. Someone I would love to hug.
It would have been interesting to see how Szass Tam summoned him exactly. I'm almost sure no human was around that time. Only the undead can withstand his miasma of malevolence.
Gross, i think i just puked a little. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 14:36:28
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Gross, i think i just puked a little.
After clicking on the Atropal link, so did I 
I'd never ever head of the things before, they do sound quite cool though. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 14:45:40
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It should be noted though that unlike most atropals [who seek death and destruction and hunt poor, unfortunate preys], Xingax is an inventor by heart. He said it himself, he didn't like to be in the middle of any war, and would rather spend his time in his laboratory. |
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 14:54:34
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| When you mentioned a laboratory I pictured an Atropal in a jar, suspended in fluid, ike from Alien Resurrection and the Ripley clone attempts. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 15:00:06
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Nope. He was a real inventor, and instrumental to Szass Tam's success. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 17:13:27
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| what did ''he'' invent? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 17:18:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
what did ''he'' invent?
All sorts of sentient undead, including a special type of vampire that can turn into mist and bats. |
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Rashemen's Future
