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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 00:58:39
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-Here are the articles. Interesting stuff:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15353397
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15720178
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16505521
-It should be fairly obvious that if an Archdevil had some very important item, or information in one central place, it'd be very well protected. Asides for actual defenses, such a place would have location on it's side. The odds that someone/something would be emboldened enough to attack it, I would think, would be fairly slim. Who is going to trek into one of the Nine Hells, break into some place that an Archdevil is protecting, steal something, and leave? Remember how much trouble Mystra had, in Elminster in Hell? On Faerūn, we know Candlekeep contains all sorts of lost lore, a lot of which could have very serious implications in various places. How often have we heard of assaults on Candlkeep? Or, looking at the real world, how often do we hear of belligerents attacking military bases that contain high-profile people/things, like Fort Knox, or the base where a prominent general is stationed/lives, or where nuclear weapons are kept? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 27 Feb 2012 01:00:18 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 01:05:04
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I would think that they have them, and have them big time, but largely in the sense of fanatical revisionists who perpetually cover up the truth with the official state sanctioned "truth", rewriting the official histories as devils in power die, fall, and ascend in power, influence, and favor - "Bel has ALWAYS been Lord of the First" etc. This is probably all under the aegis of Zimmimar of the Dark 8 (minister of propaganda and morale).
Actually there was a line in either Hellbound or Faces of Evil, talking about diabolic histories being the absolutely -least- reliable among the major fiend races overtly because of their trend of revisionist, state sanctioned histories. The demons tended to be unreadable, and the 'loths tended to have disturbingly accurate and largely secret historical records all the way back to the start of it all (ironic given their reputation as liars' liars). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 27 Feb 2012 01:10:19 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 01:12:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-It should be fairly obvious that if an Archdevil had some very important item, or information in one central place, it'd be very well protected. Asides for actual defenses, such a place would have location on it's side. The odds that someone/something would be emboldened enough to attack it, I would think, would be fairly slim. Who is going to trek into one of the Nine Hells, break into some place that an Archdevil is protecting, steal something, and leave? Remember how much trouble Mystra had, in Elminster in Hell? On Faerūn, we know Candlekeep contains all sorts of lost lore, a lot of which could have very serious implications in various places. How often have we heard of assaults on Candlkeep? Or, looking at the real world, how often do we hear of belligerents attacking military bases that contain high-profile people/things, like Fort Knox, or the base where a prominent general is stationed/lives, or where nuclear weapons are kept?
Indeed. I must add that the Lorekeepers are personally branded by the Archdevils, and therefore enjoy some certain level of personal protection. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 03:40:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It could have been in the book SECRETS - I really liked that tome. Sadly, no way of checking now. 
You've mentioned this book more than once... Who published it?
AEG
A lot of it was very good, and some of it was like "Huh?", but even the stuff that was just plain weird still gave you lots of juicy stuff to use and think about. I don't think there was single part of that book I didn't use somehow in my own stuff (some with lots of tweaking, but most, not so much). It's presented as a book of books, similar in how PftM was presented, but with far fewer 'contributory tomes', and each more detailed. And everything is presented in such a manner where it may or may not be true - that 'inaccurate third person' that we all loved in older FR sources. In fact, IIRC correctly, at least one 'author' was said to be insane. I think the presentation was one of my favorite things about the book.
For instance, one writer claims that dwarves don't have females - that they are born from the stone itself. When I first read that I was like "I'll never use that", but then when I was later working on my over-cosmology, I thought that would be perfect for the first dwarves; in other words, the females came later. So even something I thought I 100% wouldn't use proved useful in some way at a later time.
Plus, its just a really fun read - its like viewing ancient scrolls of forbidden knowledge. In fact, I'd highly recommend all of the AEG books - they are filled with tons of goodies for DMs to cherry-pick from.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2012 04:22:51 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 04:15:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It could have been in the book SECRETS - I really liked that tome. Sadly, no way of checking now.
You've mentioned this book more than once... Who published it?
AEG
A lot of it was very good, and some of it was like "Huh?", but even the stuff that was just plain weird still gave you lots of juicy stuff to use and think about. I don't think there was single part of that book I didn't use somehow in my own stuff (some with lots of tweaking, but most, not so much). It's presented as a book of books, similar in how PftM was presented, but with far fewer 'contributory tomes', and each more detailed. And everything is presented in such a manner where it may or may not be true - that 'inaccurate third person' that we all loved in older FR sources. In fact, IIRC correctly, at least one 'author' was said to be insane. I think the presentation was one of my favorite things about the book.
For instance, one writer claims that dwarves don't have females - that they are born from the stone itself. When I first read that I was like "I'll never use that", buty then when I was later working on my over-cosmology, I thought that would e perfect for the first dwarves; in other words, the females came later. So even something i thought I 100% wouldn't use proved useful in some way at a later time.
Plus, its just a really fun read - it like viewing ancient scrolls of forbidden knowledge. In fact, I'd highly recommend all of the AEG books - they are filled with tons of goodies for DMs to cherry-pick from.
I'll have to see if I can find that one... I really liked Toolbox and Ultimate Toolbox. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 04:17:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's incredibly difficult to maintain a 'neutral zone' in the Nine Hells.
I was picturing it on the border, and also over the border - in other words, like a city, unto itself... a MASSIVE one. Basically, most of it would be in the Hells (and maybe on more then one level), but a small portion of it would be over the border in Gehenna. Thats where the Yugolth 'Gatekeepers' would screen applicants (supplicants?)
And they probably charge 'soul stuff' for admission (and after taking their 'cut', they pass the rest onto the devils inside).
And while trying to picture how that would work, I found a great illustration of the planes - its not what I was looking for, but it was so cool I had to share it! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2012 04:24:42 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 04:29:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And they probably charge 'soul stuff' for admission (and after taking their 'cut', they pass the rest onto the devils inside).
That gives me the idea for an encounter where the PCs are in a large library in the Realms and come upon an NPC they've been chasing, who's dead on the floor in front of a wall with a large, square opening in it that is framed in glowing hot iron.
Beyond the opening are rows and rows of wrought iron shelves, filled with scrolls that appear to be made from skin. The floor is black obsidian, the air ripples with heat and the smell of brimstone wafts into the much cooler chamber where the PCs are searching the body of the NPC.
He's opened a gate to the Library of the Nine Hells, but it cost him more than the spell scroll he used to activate the gate wall promised.
The hellish keepers of the library gather on the other side and make ready to raid this latest mortal's library, with the PCs left to stand in the way.
Awesome. I like this thread. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 05:07:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It could have been in the book SECRETS - I really liked that tome. Sadly, no way of checking now.
You've mentioned this book more than once... Who published it?
AEG
A lot of it was very good, and some of it was like "Huh?", but even the stuff that was just plain weird still gave you lots of juicy stuff to use and think about. I don't think there was single part of that book I didn't use somehow in my own stuff (some with lots of tweaking, but most, not so much). It's presented as a book of books, similar in how PftM was presented, but with far fewer 'contributory tomes', and each more detailed. And everything is presented in such a manner where it may or may not be true - that 'inaccurate third person' that we all loved in older FR sources. In fact, IIRC correctly, at least one 'author' was said to be insane. I think the presentation was one of my favorite things about the book.
For instance, one writer claims that dwarves don't have females - that they are born from the stone itself. When I first read that I was like "I'll never use that", but then when I was later working on my over-cosmology, I thought that would be perfect for the first dwarves; in other words, the females came later. So even something I thought I 100% wouldn't use proved useful in some way at a later time.
Plus, its just a really fun read - its like viewing ancient scrolls of forbidden knowledge. In fact, I'd highly recommend all of the AEG books - they are filled with tons of goodies for DMs to cherry-pick from.
Hmmm. I've always been intrigued by most of the stuff published by AEG.
Can you recommend any other AEG tomes that might interest Realms-goers, Markus?
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 00:55:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's incredibly difficult to maintain a 'neutral zone' in the Nine Hells.
I was picturing it on the border, and also over the border - in other words, like a city, unto itself... a MASSIVE one. Basically, most of it would be in the Hells (and maybe on more then one level), but a small portion of it would be over the border in Gehenna. Thats where the Yugolth 'Gatekeepers' would screen applicants (supplicants?)
And they probably charge 'soul stuff' for admission (and after taking their 'cut', they pass the rest onto the devils inside).
And while trying to picture how that would work, I found a great illustration of the planes - its not what I was looking for, but it was so cool I had to share it!
Perhaps Asmodeus would assign the Gatekeepers, so that anyone who dare 'harm' them, the other Archdevils included, or violate the rules in acquiring certain lore, would answer directly to him. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 19:45:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Indeed. I must add that the Lorekeepers are personally branded by the Archdevils, and therefore enjoy some certain level of personal protection.
-At the same time, I would imagine that whatever Archdevil(s) might be keeping secret such knowledge would not trust the people who are keeping it all safe and secure. Whatever protections keeping the knowledge safe probably also doubles as a fail-safe against the being(s) tasked with guarding it all- since they'd invariably be plotting to use it somehow to overthrow their superior and take his/her place.
-Don't know what the reference is from, but kind of like the jail being run by the warden, who he himself is a criminal and condemned. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 00:44:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Indeed. I must add that the Lorekeepers are personally branded by the Archdevils, and therefore enjoy some certain level of personal protection.
-At the same time, I would imagine that whatever Archdevil(s) might be keeping secret such knowledge would not trust the people who are keeping it all safe and secure. Whatever protections keeping the knowledge safe probably also doubles as a fail-safe against the being(s) tasked with guarding it all- since they'd invariably be plotting to use it somehow to overthrow their superior and take his/her place.
Not when an Archdevil mind-linked all his Lorekeepers, enabling him to monitor their thoughts, even the repressed ones. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 03 Mar 2012 00:45:25 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 01:10:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not when an Archdevil mind-linked all his Lorekeepers, enabling him to monitor their thoughts, even the repressed ones.
-Knowing that someone is disloyal and would double-cross you and stab you in the back as soon as they could get away with it wouldn't necessarily change such a scenario. Really, in the Nine Hells and the Abyss, one doesn't need to read an inferior's mind to know that, if they could, they'd depose of you and take your place if they could. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 02:10:14
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I don't mean that any thoughts of betrayal by the Lorekeepers would instantly make the Archdevil eliminate them. It's the Nine Hells. Everyone betrays each other. But mind-linking himself with his inferiors could give him a relative assurance that he stays one step ahead of them...
Or heck, he could simply bind them in a way that should they divulge lore to anyone without his consent, or outside the rules he himself set, and should they try to "hurt" him, they'd perish instantly. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 05:08:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I don't mean that any thoughts of betrayal by the Lorekeepers would instantly make the Archdevil eliminate them. It's the Nine Hells. Everyone betrays each other. But mind-linking himself with his inferiors could give him a relative assurance that he stays one step ahead of them...
Or heck, he could simply bind them in a way that should they divulge lore to anyone without his consent, or outside the rules he himself set, and should they try to "hurt" him, they'd perish instantly.
-I would hope that he/she would be able to stay one step ahead of them regardless. If he/she couldn't, they'd 'deserving' oust him/her. Very social Darwinian. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 05:53:46
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No Archdevil would be able to keep his throne for long if he does not know to keep a step ahead of everyone else. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12084 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 14:57:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Indeed. I must add that the Lorekeepers are personally branded by the Archdevils, and therefore enjoy some certain level of personal protection.
-At the same time, I would imagine that whatever Archdevil(s) might be keeping secret such knowledge would not trust the people who are keeping it all safe and secure. Whatever protections keeping the knowledge safe probably also doubles as a fail-safe against the being(s) tasked with guarding it all- since they'd invariably be plotting to use it somehow to overthrow their superior and take his/her place.
Not when an Archdevil mind-linked all his Lorekeepers, enabling him to monitor their thoughts, even the repressed ones.
Here's one of the few spots where I'll differ, but only in the level of involvement. In a lawful good library, with a lawful good person overseeing it... I see this as possible. In a lawful evil society though, I see this kind of library springing up but them not submitting to too much "governmental" control in one hand. There might be controls in place, but it would be something again to a large body of control (i.e. a council or senate). I know this doesn't fit with the tyrannical view of the Hells and sounds a bit more chaotic, but even devil's will want some freedom from their masters (after all, they are self centered i.e. evil). Now, I could see that if they were suspected of something the "council" might use their collective power to peer in on a given librarian. Also, I could see this "council" putting in means to watch the librarians without the librarians knowing it. Basically, something akin to a "information police" group being setup to watch the activities of the various groups in the library, as well as possibly an "information administration" group being setup to control the access granted to the librarians. Finally, there may also be another group formed that's responsible for "data migration"... i.e. moving and tracking data around so that its not necessarily always in the same place and/or preserving data by recopying it (but not actually having access to a means of unlocking the data itself). Naturally, a commodity in trade that might spring up on the "black market" of hell might even become passwords/puzzles that are periodically changed/moved by unscrupulous members within these various organizations. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 08:19:23
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A council is fine. But for their own relative safety and those under their wing---the librarians---they should keep their identities a secret. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Demon Lorekeepers
