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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 14:08:23
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Having recently re-read FR2 Moonshae (for about the 20th time since the late 80s), I came to realize that this supplement is exactly what we should have gotten all along for the Realms and what I would love to see the 5th Edition return to (of course set at the same time, but let's leave that aside for the moment).
FR2 Was written after the Darkwalker novel came out (and likely with intimate knowledge of both Black Wizards and Darwell) and yet the supplement was set 10 years prior to the events in Darkwell (ie 1335DR). This is what (IMHO) makes FR2 spectacular as it sets the stage for a region, while still allowing the DM/Players to be involved in the events of the future Darkwalker War (either to participate, lead, or change) without sacrificing any lore or invalidating any "canon". And even though the supplement is set 22 years prior to the OGB, it is still extremely useful to a DM, as very little (outside potentially of rulers) is going to change from a cultural/societal/geographic perspective in such a short period anyways (or at least it shouldn't). I would like to see the 5E Realms get back to this model for supplements to the game (ie not necessarily incorporating the novel outcomes) so that DM's and Players can pick and choose their Realms themselves (and ideally, I would like to see them all set back in the general 1335-1357 range).
Of note also, is that in FR2, the much maligned (by Shattered Realms enthusiasts) Elminster is essentially portrayed as nothing more than a tourist/sage at this point in Realms history.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4431 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 14:27:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
Of note also, is that in FR2, the much maligned (by Shattered Realms enthusiasts) Elminster is essentially portrayed as nothing more than a tourist/sage at this point in Realms history.
You'd like to believe that, huh? But the truth is, I've never really read or seen (espically the post-Spellplague fans here) people are against Elminster or his power. He's iconic and I even have plans to help him regain that power with my group at some point. Deep breath buddy. It's just a game. |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 14:44:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Apex
Of note also, is that in FR2, the much maligned (by Shattered Realms enthusiasts) Elminster is essentially portrayed as nothing more than a tourist/sage at this point in Realms history.
You'd like to believe that, huh? But the truth is, I've never really read or seen (espically the post-Spellplague fans here) people are against Elminster or his power. He's iconic and I even have plans to help him regain that power with my group at some point. Deep breath buddy. It's just a game.
The point is one of the big complaints used to justify the time shift/Shattered Realms was that "why would PC's ever adventure because Elminster et al would just do it for them" and the answer is that this wasn't an issue back in the early Realms. Elminster et al simply weren't actively adventuring (or interested in it). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 15:05:52
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See, this is precisely the problem they face.
This was my least favorite supplement. It bored me to tears - I never even finished reading through the whole thing.
Sorry, thats just how I felt. The Moonshaes weren't in Ed's Realms - it was another setting entirely that was poorly pasted in, and one of the things I would really like to see gone in 5e, or the "Ed Greenwood Presents.." books(s).
If it was stand-alone setting (as it was intended), I probably would have enjoyed it more, but the whole wishy-washy Earthmother/Chauntea thing really left a bad taste in my mouth.
Once again, I apologize - I understand the purpose of the thread, but I just wanted it to be known (to 'the powers that be') that not everyone liked the Moonshaes. The concept, YES - the bad paste-job, NO. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2012 15:06:28 |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 15:10:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See, this is precisely the problem they face.
This was my least favorite supplement. It bored me to tears - I never even finished reading through the whole thing.
Sorry, thats just how I felt. The Moonshaes weren't in Ed's Realms - it was another setting entirely that was poorly pasted in, and one of the things I would really like to see gone in 5e, or the "Ed Greenwood Presents.." books(s).
If it was stand-alone setting (as it was intended), I probably would have enjoyed it more, but the whole wishy-washy Earthmother/Chauntea thing really left a bad taste in my mouth.
Once again, I apologize - I understand the purpose of the thread, but I just wanted it to be known (to 'the powers that be') that not everyone liked the Moonshaes. The concept, YES - the bad paste-job, NO.
The example wasn't based on the material, but on the method. I could've used much of the Savage Frontier supplements as an example as well. Although it had some (very brief) mentions of the outcomes/characters from The Crystal Shard, the supplement is set in 1357 and yet includes nothing on either Streams of Silver or The Halflings Gem and yet the supplement works wonderfully without them. Simply put, I believe the Realms is better when the supplements are separated (as much as is reasonable) from the novels, thus providing DM's with more options and information, but without invalidating the canon of the novels. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4431 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 15:10:34
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| I really liked the Bard character in the novels. Actually made me want to play one at some point. I haven't read the adventure, but I'm not opposed to run a game there. I rather like the Celtic approach they made. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 15:36:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Once again, I apologize - I understand the purpose of the thread, but I just wanted it to be known (to 'the powers that be') that not everyone liked the Moonshaes. The concept, YES - the bad paste-job, NO.
I don't remember ever learning about the Moonshaes being added in to the Realms until several years after I first read the novels.
To me the Moonshaes were always just as much a part of the Realms as Icewind Dale or anything else in the early days of the published Realms, and they still are.
I think if you ask most anyone from back then, they'd tell you the same thing.
I like Apex' point about how a sourcebook should be separate from whatever is going on in the novels. I'm sure game designers or executives at WotC might feel differently, but maybe they can be convinced otherwise. |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 15:54:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Once again, I apologize - I understand the purpose of the thread, but I just wanted it to be known (to 'the powers that be') that not everyone liked the Moonshaes. The concept, YES - the bad paste-job, NO.
I don't remember ever learning about the Moonshaes being added in to the Realms until several years after I first read the novels.
To me the Moonshaes were always just as much a part of the Realms as Icewind Dale or anything else in the early days of the published Realms, and they still are.
I think if you ask most anyone from back then, they'd tell you the same thing.
Yup. Not many people knew it was a 'paste-job' until later....much later in my case (1999). I would have known sooner but we didn't really adventure in that area. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 16:43:45
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Precisely.
Almost no-one did.
I liked the flavor, it just wasn't properly connected to the Realms. It had its own, unique fluff, and that doesn't make much sense (except from a meta-gaming viewpoint, where we know the real reason for this). they've spent years back-filling in the lore around it, trying to get it better linked to the Realms, but it actually makes little sense (read PftF and PftM - the seas around faerun used to be filled with many, MANy more populated islands, with their own peoples and history - the Moonshaes do not take into account ANY of that).
And the Northmen are just a conundrum - it seems like they come from everywhere and nowhere. Thats not really a Moonshaes problem, though - if anything, their Northmen make the most sense out of the entire cultural group.
However, I agree that I really like the 1e lore-approach to the setting books (Savage Frontier was one of my favorites) - thas the kind of books I want to see for the Realms.
Realms nations, BTW, do not have well-defined borders, like we had in Mystara or Greyhawk (or Eberron), so that's why I propose they continue with Regional splats (as they have always done in FR), rather then national ones (Cormyr being the only exception to that rule).
On the other hand, thinner, cheaper books might be more accessible to the largest number of people. I still would prefer regionals, though - I enjoy how they linked the lore together in those (I'd be afraid nation-only splats wouldn't have that level of interconnectivity... they usually don't).
Or just do the 'Volo's guides' until the end of time. I'm good with that.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2012 16:44:26 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 16:46:36
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Heh. Considering Darkwalker on Moonshae was the first Forgotten Realms novel, you could make an argument that the egg came before the chicken. Were the Moonshaes pasted into the Forgotten Realms or was the Forgotten Realms pasted onto the Moonshaes?
Tongue in cheek, but it is odd that the first ever FR novel was not supposed to be in the FR at all.
On the supplement, I actually liked it and the methodology is great to have a setting presented without novel plot lines executed, but it's difficult to draw the line here.
Off topic, I liked the first novel but hated Black Wizards and Darkwell. Too much contrivance and stupidity. Oh hello weird evil man that makes my protector so ill she can't speak or move, come live in my forest glen of purity. Please don't do anything evil like kill us and bring back an abomination from hell! Oh you will? my bad. No one could possibly have seen that coming. Ugh. I couldn't finish Darkwell it was too stupid. Except the part about Bhaal mentioning the appeal of God-Children way back in 1989. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 17:53:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Apex
Of note also, is that in FR2, the much maligned (by Shattered Realms enthusiasts) Elminster is essentially portrayed as nothing more than a tourist/sage at this point in Realms history.
You'd like to believe that, huh? But the truth is, I've never really read or seen (espically the post-Spellplague fans here) people are against Elminster or his power. He's iconic and I even have plans to help him regain that power with my group at some point. Deep breath buddy. It's just a game.
The point is one of the big complaints used to justify the time shift/Shattered Realms was that "why would PC's ever adventure because Elminster et al would just do it for them" and the answer is that this wasn't an issue back in the early Realms. Elminster et al simply weren't actively adventuring (or interested in it).
I loved the Moonshaes. It was the first RPG novel I read because it was the first FR novel written. I never got into Dragonlance.
I agree with Markus on most things, but this I have to strongly disagree. I know it is not the ED realms which I truly enjoy, but the Boxed Forgotten Realms I bought (the gray box) included it, and for me it was always the Realms. I followed Ed in Dragon, it may be that I was not old enough to know any better, but the realms I know and love was that published by TSR, not necessarily just the ed parts. I like Kara Tur and Zakhara, but I am a history nut and I like analogs.
I am a Realms purist to the released material. I did not know of the coastal issues until recently, but it doesn't really change anything for me. Plus I think everything released by Douglas Niles is fantastic.
I'll have to depart from Markus on this one.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 02 Feb 2012 17:58:48 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:10:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Apex
Of note also, is that in FR2, the much maligned (by Shattered Realms enthusiasts) Elminster is essentially portrayed as nothing more than a tourist/sage at this point in Realms history.
You'd like to believe that, huh? But the truth is, I've never really read or seen (espically the post-Spellplague fans here) people are against Elminster or his power. He's iconic and I even have plans to help him regain that power with my group at some point. Deep breath buddy. It's just a game.
The point is one of the big complaints used to justify the time shift/Shattered Realms was that "why would PC's ever adventure because Elminster et al would just do it for them" and the answer is that this wasn't an issue back in the early Realms. Elminster et al simply weren't actively adventuring (or interested in it).
I call BS once again. This is such a lame cop out saying that PC's wouldn't want to adventure in the Realms because of Elminster. Come on. Exactly which game supplements did Elminster's power come to play to such an extent that it drove PC's away? Actually, what game supplements did Elminster ever come into play as a character? I only ever remember him as being a source of knowledge for the supplement. I only ever seen Elminster's power played up in the novels. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:14:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Apex
Of note also, is that in FR2, the much maligned (by Shattered Realms enthusiasts) Elminster is essentially portrayed as nothing more than a tourist/sage at this point in Realms history.
You'd like to believe that, huh? But the truth is, I've never really read or seen (espically the post-Spellplague fans here) people are against Elminster or his power. He's iconic and I even have plans to help him regain that power with my group at some point. Deep breath buddy. It's just a game.
The point is one of the big complaints used to justify the time shift/Shattered Realms was that "why would PC's ever adventure because Elminster et al would just do it for them" and the answer is that this wasn't an issue back in the early Realms. Elminster et al simply weren't actively adventuring (or interested in it).
I call BS once again. This is such a lame cop out saying that PC's wouldn't want to adventure in the Realms because of Elminster. Come on. Exactly which game supplements did Elminster's power come to play to such an extent that it drove PC's away? Actually, what game supplements did Elminster ever come into play as a character? I only ever remember him as being a source of knowledge for the supplement. I only ever seen Elminster's power played up in the novels.
The stereotype likely stems from the Avatar trilogy modules, which were largely dictated by editorial as far as I know and had ELminster come through at several points just to try and slide the plot together. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I call BS once again. This is such a lame cop out saying that PC's wouldn't want to adventure in the Realms because of Elminster. Come on. Exactly which game supplements did Elminster's power come to play to such an extent that it drove PC's away? Actually, what game supplements did Elminster ever come into play as a character? I only ever remember him as being a source of knowledge for the supplement. I only ever seen Elminster's power played up in the novels.
This is the least offensive reason people felt the realms needed to be changed. By far the worse reason to change the realms was that "it was too hard to play in, too much to read" mantra that poisoned the net at the time of the edition development. Quality was sacrificed for being accessible.
I love how companies use accessible as a nice way to say dumbed down.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 19:52:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
This is such a lame cop out saying that PC's wouldn't want to adventure in the Realms because of Elminster.
Oh I don't know about that.
Players (especially young players) can easily form impressions about the Chosen from reading novels featuring Elminster or seeing his massive game stat wall on practically page one of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.
If you're the DM for players who've formed the impression, it's something you have to deal with.
Bringing this back to 5E and future game supplements: I think Eliminster and everybody else that's left should be kept out of the spotlight as much as possible.
Give them to me in novels, but diminished and in the background. Leave it to the mortals of the Realms. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 20:19:20
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| I don't think that Elminster, Khelben, the Seven Sisters, or whoever else you choose need to be excluded from the Realms. Each is important for what they influence, alter, and set up for the Realms at large and possibilities for play. Elminster especially is very important because he is the lens through which we have seen the Realms for years now. What needs to be done away with is this childish idea that the mere existence of these characters makes other deeds less interesting, useless, or meaningless. Game design really shouldn't be influenced by a boogeyman. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 20:28:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
This is such a lame cop out saying that PC's wouldn't want to adventure in the Realms because of Elminster.
Oh I don't know about that.
Players (especially young players) can easily form impressions about the Chosen from reading novels featuring Elminster or seeing his massive game stat wall on practically page one of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.
If you're the DM for players who've formed the impression, it's something you have to deal with.
Bringing this back to 5E and future game supplements: I think Eliminster and everybody else that's left should be kept out of the spotlight as much as possible.
Give them to me in novels, but diminished and in the background. Leave it to the mortals of the Realms.
Fans were saying that all along before, during, and after the Spellplague/4E transition.
WotC did not care to notice. It was as if the segment of fans who liked the Pre-Plague Realms did not exist. Then that's exactly what happened to a significant portion of the fan-base, disappeared into the ether and scattered to other pursuits.
I still don't think they will change anything for the better in 5E. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 20:33:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I call BS once again. This is such a lame cop out saying that PC's wouldn't want to adventure in the Realms because of Elminster. Come on. Exactly which game supplements did Elminster's power come to play to such an extent that it drove PC's away? Actually, what game supplements did Elminster ever come into play as a character? I only ever remember him as being a source of knowledge for the supplement. I only ever seen Elminster's power played up in the novels.
This is the least offensive reason people felt the realms needed to be changed. By far the worse reason to change the realms was that "it was too hard to play in, too much to read" mantra that poisoned the net at the time of the edition development. Quality was sacrificed for being accessible.
I love how companies use accessible as a nice way to say dumbed down.
I can agree with this. The Realms has gotten pretty big, so much so that it can dissuade new players of DnD. But the way they went about it was all wrong. What ever happened to having a beginners set of books? That's how I got into DnD. When I was 10 I looked at the AD&D book and just felt it was too adult for me. But then I found the old Red Box DnD Basic set which gave me a nice and easy entry into the game. I worked myself all the way up to the Immortal rules. Then when I was 13 I finally bought the AD&D rule books.
I'm not saying that 5E needs to be so tiered. But it is a much better way to introduce new players than taking a knife to the setting just to make it more accessible. I'm just so tired of people still bashing some very good fictional Realms characters just because they feel that they somehow ruin their home campaign. |
Edited by - Caolin on 02 Feb 2012 20:34:45 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 20:34:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
What needs to be done away with is this childish idea that the mere existence of these characters makes other deeds less interesting, useless, or meaningless.
Well, childish ideas are the stuff of good dungeons, monsters and first roleplaying experiences.
And really, why is it childish? After all, some people hold this opinion about the Realms as they get older. The opinion itself may not be factual (it's an opinion after all), but the fact that these opinions exist is undeniable.
What happens outside of the actions of the player in a campaign does matter to some people.
If it didn't, we wouldn't have people calling for divergent timelines because they feel that, whatever else they do, the Spellplague will always be on the horizon in their 1300s era Realms campaigns.
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Game design really shouldn't be influenced by a boogeyman.
Were I a game designer and someone told me face to face at a convention that they didn't play in the Realms because they thought the Chosen hogged too much of the spotlight (or that this is what the person's players think), I certainly wouldn't tell them they're being childish.
That said, I do believe the idea should be made to go away. Just not by pretending it doesn't exist. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 21:26:26
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Unfortunately, the method WotC chose to make the problem go away was to make the characters go away for good. We will likely not see the likes of them again, whether they contributed to the perception or not. It was easier to just take them out. Putting them back in will have the same group who asked for their removal scream bloody murder.
They kept the two biggest characters. Many players who disliked the Realms for the NPCs take one look and see those two characters featured as NPCs still. They get turned off the setting immediately. In the end WotC's actions accomplished little, or perhaps even damaged the setting's standing with fans of all types and preferences in the long run.
A different approach was needed, but given the changes already implemented going on five years now, the current situation will likely remain as is.
Back on topic, I felt the Moonshaes, even though they originally weren't meant as part of the Realms, did grow more connected to the setting.
Setting the game books a handful of years before the novel line sounds interesting, but do remember from the Old Grey Box to all the subsequent main setting boxes or books, once they're released and the novel line given a short time to progress, they function identical to this manner. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 23:03:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Unfortunately, the method WotC chose to make (snip) scream bloody murder.
I don't like the kill everyone off method either. It's not satisfying, you know? Reminds of one of my old GI Joe comics where a Cobra soldier armed with a heavy machine gun caught a bunch of Joes down in a pit. He mowed them down and a few issues later the writers were getting an earful from fan letters for picking the laziest way (from the fan PoV, of course) to kill off extra characters.
And Dark Wizard I want you to know I'm a fan of all the Forgotten Realms--including the post-Spellplague Realms--and I will not "scream bloody murder" if the Chosen are fully restored.
I think it's safe to say you are a fan of the Forgotten Realms, just like me.
Out of respect for that, if nothing else, can you please stop describing me, and others like me, in such an unflattering light just because I like a part of the setting that you don't?
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
They kept the two biggest characters. Many players who disliked the Realms for the NPCs take one look and see those two characters featured as NPCs still. They get turned off the setting immediately.
Though your experience might be different, I haven't ever seen a single person say they've made the decision to ignore the post-Spellplague Realms because Elminster and Drizzt are still around. Not online, not at the gaming table and not at conventions.
Myself, I'm currently enjoying Ed Greenwood's and R.A. Salvatore's latest Realms novels. I'm doing this even though I'm glad the Chosen got taken down a notch and Drizzt has fallen on hard times.
Makes for good novel reading.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
In the end WotC's actions accomplished little, or perhaps even damaged the setting's standing with fans of all types and preferences in the long run.
I agree with you here. Not entirely, but some. Though this and the rest of our side discussion probably belong on another scroll (apologies Apex).
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Setting the game books a handful of years before the novel line sounds interesting, but do remember from the Old Grey Box to all the subsequent main setting boxes or books, once they're released and the novel line given a short time to progress, they function identical to this manner.
I think the idea of placing novels some years after the sourcebooks is an interesting idea too.
I'm not sure what happens when the timeline advances in the sourcebooks to where they overlap the novels though.
What if WotC picked three eras to set sourcebooks in and wrote novels "in between" those eras? Would FR2 Moonshae-style sourcebooks work with something like this?
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 23:35:47
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| My original point (getting back on topic) was that there is no reason that the sourcebooks need to follow the novels and that setting the sourcebooks in the recent past may actually be better for the game as it allows DM's to dictate the canon in their games easier AND allow DM's to use novels as adventures (among other benefits). |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 23:49:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Apex
Of note also, is that in FR2, the much maligned (by Shattered Realms enthusiasts) Elminster is essentially portrayed as nothing more than a tourist/sage at this point in Realms history.
You'd like to believe that, huh? But the truth is, I've never really read or seen (espically the post-Spellplague fans here) people are against Elminster or his power. He's iconic and I even have plans to help him regain that power with my group at some point. Deep breath buddy. It's just a game.
Reading about Elminster these days is a nigh-complete travail. I miss the old he, or rather, the younger he. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 23:51:27
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@Jeremy Grenemyer
My apologies for the unflattering language. I shouldn't point the finger so much at other fans just wanting the products they like. I just wished the products the other fans liked didn't exclude so much of the setting elements I favored. I think you understand why this is so frustrating.
It's another matter if I was never a fan of the setting, then I wouldn't care what happened. However, the circumstances places me in a dilemma. I will not patron a setting I disagree with, but I never wanted to disagree with the setting in the first place.
@Apex
I agree with your idea and many others have expressed a similar wish for novels to play a less direct role influencing the setting. Unfortunately, from every indication I've read in the past, WotC is not willing to separate the game setting from the novel setting to such a degree. Things may change in 5E, but until an announcement otherwise, expect the novels and the game setting to be linked in 5E as they have been in other editions. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 01:54:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I agree with Markus on most things, but this I have to strongly disagree. I know it is not the ED realms which I truly enjoy, but the Boxed Forgotten Realms I bought (the gray box) included it, and for me it was always the Realms.<snip>
I only learned about the Moonshaes being 'patched in' at the very beginning of 3e, when I began to hangout on the WotC forums. I even read that trilogy second, right after the Icewind Dale one, so it was part of my introductory as well.
However, it never felt right to me. The Moonshaes had a completely different 'vibe' IMO. When I learned that the moonshaes were shoe-horned in, I was like "I knew it!" It just never felt quite right.
The dwarf women had beards, the Elves lived in faerie, the trolls were tiny (Trolkyn) and were also able to go in and out of Faerie. Don't get me wrong - I love Celtic lore and that sort of flavor - it just wasn't the same flavor as the rest of the Realms. I felt even the derivative Old Empires was a much better fit. The Realms has an 'old, crusty feel' to it. I once said (to Ed via his thread) that I felt like "you can't walk 10 feet in the Realms without tripping over some ruins", and THO replied "Thats precisely the feel Ed was going for."
The Moonshaes, on the other hand, felt wild and primal - like mankind was treading into places no-one ever has before... it felt PRISTINE. FR, on the other hand, is old, dusty, musty, dirty, grungy, etc, etc... if you dig deep enough, you'll always find a few skeletons. It has that Ancient feel to it, not in the same primal way The Moonshaes does - one feels like a world that is past its prime, and the other a world just starting out.
Thats why I never cared for it. It had nothing at all to do with the flavor (or writing, etc), it just didn't work for me. And as probably many here can testify to, I love my Celtic lore; I spent many days with Quale and others discussing that pantheon, and linking it to both the Fey and Elven ones. Maybe if it had been further away it would have made more sense, but for it to be so different, without any Faerunian influences for thousands of years - it was just weird.
Heres what I think - take the Moonshaes we got, and put it over in the Feywild (where I feel its a perfect fit), and then lets find out what Ed was going to do with the place. There's no reason we can't have both - after all, its canon that the creatures of the Moonshaes travel in-and-out of Faerie often.
In fact, the one in FR should be a 'pale reflection' of the primal one in Faerie (I guess I want it to get the same treatment Evermeet got in 4e). A castle in one would be a jumble of ruins in the other, a city, would be a small village, a small woods a dreaded forest, etc. Why not have both? That would keep the flavors in their correct environments, IMHO.
In other words, I like Eberron, and Athas, and many others, but I wouldn't try to paste them wholesale into the Realms - the feel would just be too far off.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2012 20:18:35 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 03:01:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I only learned about the Moonshaes being 'patched in' at the very beginning of 3e, when I began to hangout on the WotC forums. I even read that trilogy second, right after the Icewind Dale one, so it was part of my introductory as well.
However, it never felt right to me. The Moonshaes had a completely different 'vibe' IMO. When I learned that the moonshaes were shoe-horned in, I was like "I knew it!" It just never felt quite right.
I can agree with you on all counts; I didn't learn that the Moonshaes were a "nose job" on the Realms until I started hanging out here (which was far earlier than my account info suggests; I was lurking without an account for almost the entire lifetime of 3rd edition).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Heres what I think - take the Moonshaes we got, and put it over in the Feywild (where I feel its a perfect fit), and then lets find out what Ed was going to do with the place. There's no reason we can't have both - after all, its canon that the creatures of the Moonshaes travel in-and-out of Faerie often.
In fact, the one in FR should be a 'pale reflection' of the primal one in Faerie (I guess I want it to get the same treatment Evermeet got in 4e). A castle in one would be a jumble of ruins in the other, a city, would be a small village, a small woods a dreaded forest, etc. One not have both? That would keep the flavors in their correct environments, IMHO.
I like this... I like it a lot. Mind you, this doesn't surprise me.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In other words, I like Eberron, and Athas, and many others, but I wouldn't try to paste them wholesale into the Realms - the feel would just be too far off.
That depends on the ruleset you're using... no further comment.  Seriously, I think you're absolutely right, given 2E Athas; Athas in 4E has the same cosmology as everywhere else, so it wouldn't be out of place in (say) Raurin or even Anauroch; you'd have to re-write a lot of FR canon lore for those places, but it would work. IMHO, of course. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 22:31:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
That depends on the ruleset you're using... no further comment. Seriously, I think you're absolutely right, given 2E Athas; Athas in 4E has the same cosmology as everywhere else, so it wouldn't be out of place in (say) Raurin or even Anauroch; you'd have to re-write a lot of FR canon lore for those places, but it would work. IMHO, of course.
You don't have to re-write any canon, you just have to create some new magic disease (let's call it the silt-plague) and then jump the timeline forward 100 years. Bam, perfectly fine with canon. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2012 : 04:49:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
That depends on the ruleset you're using... no further comment. Seriously, I think you're absolutely right, given 2E Athas; Athas in 4E has the same cosmology as everywhere else, so it wouldn't be out of place in (say) Raurin or even Anauroch; you'd have to re-write a lot of FR canon lore for those places, but it would work. IMHO, of course.
You don't have to re-write any canon, you just have to create some new magic disease (let's call it the silt-plague) and then jump the timeline forward 100 years. Bam, perfectly fine with canon.
 Yeah... and then we'd be looking at a new edition and potential Realms reboot in 3-5 years. Not something I want to be responsible for triggering, thanks. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2012 : 20:32:09
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Actually, I was going to do this in my own (homebrew) rendition of the Realms, but changed my mind.
The map of Athas that came with the Dark Sun box (Damn - I just realized I lost that lovely cloth map as well  ) fits near-perfectly in the Raurin - they are almost exactly the same size.
However, as much as I like that, the 'flavors' were just too wild. I had considered putting Athas down in Zakhara, and then moving Al-Qadim up into the Raurin (which would work better, flavor-wise), but that was too much of an overhaul, especially since my players would probably never get there anyway.
Someday I might try to 'Frakenstein' it yet-again.
On the other hand, who's to say Dark Sun wasn't on Abeir? Someone on the far side of the planet could have called it by a different name (Abeir/Athas... close enough for me). Considering Athas's 'closed cosmology', and what little we know of Abeir, its more then just plausible.
Maybe there is another continent as well - called Ansalon. Perhaps 5e can stick all the smaller settings on Abeir, connect the two (Ao 'opens up the Gates'), and we have a Smörgåsbord (buffet) of whatever we want. Abeir could become one titanic 'dungeon' in my meta-setting concept.
Of course, that would crap-on prior lore concerning Krynn... maybe leave that one alone. Use Aebrynis instead - the 'Dragon Lords' thing would play well against the Regency's of Birthright.
5e should be a good way of using a lot of old material that hasn't seen the light of day, and bring it back into play via the FR meta-setting! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2012 20:34:14 |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 03:39:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I loved the Moonshaes. It was the first RPG novel I read because it was the first FR novel written. I never got into Dragonlance.
I agree with Markus on most things, but this I have to strongly disagree. I know it is not the ED realms which I truly enjoy, but the Boxed Forgotten Realms I bought (the gray box) included it, and for me it was always the Realms. I followed Ed in Dragon, it may be that I was not old enough to know any better, but the realms I know and love was that published by TSR, not necessarily just the ed parts. I like Kara Tur and Zakhara, but I am a history nut and I like analogs.
I am a Realms purist to the released material. I did not know of the coastal issues until recently, but it doesn't really change anything for me. Plus I think everything released by Douglas Niles is fantastic.
I'll have to depart from Markus on this one.
I agree and it was the novel that actually made me fall in love with the Realms and explore it further. Then later on I could look back in the proper context and realize that the Moonshaes are MEANT so be unique, and special. If it indeed was a cut and paste job they did a fantastic job of tying it in, as a unique little corner of the Realms. It has it's own fluff...as should ALL special regions.
I just bought FR2, and I'm EXTREMELY upset as it did not come with the 2 sided map of the Moonshaes as it's supposed to. |
Edited by - Cards77 on 19 Jan 2014 03:40:30 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1845 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 10:04:03
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Heh, I thought I was the master of thread resurrections.
quote:
5e should be a good way of using a lot of old material that hasn't seen the light of day, and bring it back into play via the FR meta-setting!
If only they would do this...but they never will.
As to the OP: I always liked the Moonshaes and FR2 is about as close to the ideal as I can imagine for how to handle regional supplements. I'm kinda neutral on their connection to the novels though...I just ignore/change what I don't like. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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FR2 Moonshae as a Template for Future 5E Realms
