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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 02:30:22
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I was stunned to finally realize last night that there are only THREE, count em, THREE FR deities that have healing as a domain. Only 2 of them are major powers. One was quite a surprise.
Can you name them off the top of your head?
Why are there so few?
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Edited by - Cards77 on 21 Jan 2014 02:43:41
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1845 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 02:41:00
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| It was part of the 3e changes to the core rules that instigated the change. During 2e, more deities had access to the healing domain (called 'spheres' at the time). Spheres were divided into major and minor access for each deity back then (a system that I prefer to 3e, btw) and it was the healing sphere was more widespread amongst the gods. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4431 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 04:29:52
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| I think Torm and Ilmater have the healing domains. Can't remember the third. Though I think it's BS that Lathander doesn't have it. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 12:30:54
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Does it matter if they have healing domain or not if their priests can still heal? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 13:55:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I think Torm and Ilmater have the healing domains. Can't remember the third. Though I think it's BS that Lathander doesn't have it.
Yeah that's the two major powers. There is a third minor power. Quite a suprise really, and yes I agree. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1845 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 14:18:31
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quote:
Does it matter if they have healing domain or not if their priests can still heal?
I think this depends on the concept you want for your character. I think Lathander should have the healing domain as well...and if I were going to play a priest of his I just might want that as a domain. I prefer the 2e spheres to the 3e domains by far. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4431 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 15:09:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Does it matter if they have healing domain or not if their priests can still heal?
For one, it can depend based on what Prestige Classes are available in the campaign. Often Pelor-ish things from "Core" can be easily converted to the Forgotten Realms Lathander because they both share very similar qualities. In this regard, the Radiant Servant of Pelor would make an excellent Radiant Servant of Lathander except he doesn't grant he Healing domain, which is a requirement of the PrC. Now sure, it's plain and simple to just add it to the God (it's what I did) but if anyone ever wanted to use the character in organized play or at someone else's campaign, well then there could potentially be problems.
Is it a big issue? No, not really. I think most sensible people would just hand-wave the situation in favor of fun, but there are those out there that have a pretty strict eye to certain things, especially granting automatic domains to Gods "Just 'Cuz" |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 15:32:33
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| According to Player's Guide to Faerun, Berronar Truesilver, Luru, Luthic and Sharindlar also have the healing domain. Faiths & Pantheons also shows that the giant deities Iallanis and Skoreus Stonebones have such. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 17:33:27
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Spheres worked very differently than Domains. They were more restrictive to the character, and really a pain to manage. =)
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Does it matter if they have healing domain or not if their priests can still heal?
For one, it can depend based on what Prestige Classes are available in the campaign. Often Pelor-ish things from "Core" can be easily converted to the Forgotten Realms Lathander because they both share very similar qualities. In this regard, the Radiant Servant of Pelor would make an excellent Radiant Servant of Lathander except he doesn't grant he Healing domain, which is a requirement of the PrC. Now sure, it's plain and simple to just add it to the God (it's what I did) but if anyone ever wanted to use the character in organized play or at someone else's campaign, well then there could potentially be problems.
Radiant Servant doesn't require Healing Domain, but the Sun Domain, which Lathander provides.
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11746 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 19:13:49
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| Knowing who has the healing domain becomes particularly important for wizards who take the Arcane Disciple feat (especially war weavers who have the ability to cast touch spells as ranged touch). The third one is Lurue, which given her tendency to roam the world healing beings with her horn isn't too surprising. What is surprising is that there's no such deity in the Mulhorandi pantheon, but the dwarven patheon has two.... and its even more interesting when viewing that an orc deity known for inflicting wasting diseases on people who abuse her name has it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dreamstalker
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 21:16:02
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I do agree that it is odd that there is no healing domain among the Mulhorandi Pantheon. I would expect Hathor to have that one. She only has four domains barring the Exalted addition of community and adding the domain to her would not unbalance her list.
Overall I am not surprised that the healing domain is not widely spread among Faerûnian deities. The conceptual space overlaps with the renewal domain. To an extant, the family domain also fills a niche that might have been filled by the healing domain. Healing is a common expectation of priests, but strong focus on healing over other pursuits is not common among the faiths. The high variety of domains leans the deities towards other options.
The mechanics of spheres and domains, as others stated, are very different. Spheres are about basic or full proficiency. Domains are about specialization. Every cleric in 3.x can heal very well, though non-evil clerics have the option of being better. The capability granted by major healing sphere access is fully covered by the basic cleric and druid list. The closest approximation to 3.x domains in 2ed would be specialty priest capability. If there is a specialty priest with more than the cleric's capability to heal that would be a strong candidate for the healing domain. |
Edited by - Dreamstalker on 21 Jan 2014 21:16:57 |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 02:00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
According to Player's Guide to Faerun, Berronar Truesilver, Luru, Luthic and Sharindlar also have the healing domain. Faiths & Pantheons also shows that the giant deities Iallanis and Skoreus Stonebones have such.
Per the FRCS, I only considered those listed as "Deities of Faerun", not the demi-gods, or various racial pantheons. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 12:54:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
quote:
Does it matter if they have healing domain or not if their priests can still heal?
I think this depends on the concept you want for your character. I think Lathander should have the healing domain as well...and if I were going to play a priest of his I just might want that as a domain. I prefer the 2e spheres to the 3e domains by far.
That wasn't really a question. I was merely alluding to the situations (facts, if you will) where Lathander's/Amaunator's priests in the novels are able to heal people despite their patron's supposed lack of healing domain. But then again, rules-wise, the novels trump the games. So it's a non-issue, really. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 16:13:45
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I think the spheres concept was better then domains. Don't know why they changed it. Having 'minor' and 'major' access was a great mechanic.
If I had to take a guess, I'd say it was the 3e design philosophy - players shouldn't have limitations. I also think thats why I had the most headaches running 3e games (despite liking that iteration of the rules best).
Its one of the aspects of the 2e rules that really shined. That way, you didn't get such silliness as priests of evil gods that can do major healing. Hope they fix priests in 5e - I have never found a version that was quite perfect. Ideally, the priest of each god should be its own class, but thats a bit much; they could have accomplished much the same thing with PrCs... opportunities missed, and all that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1845 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 16:24:28
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| 2e basically had individual classes for all priests...the specialty priests...and that's exactly how I would use them in homebrew instead of having these generic priests who must choose a prestige class to 'specialize' as a follower of their deity. Seems to me, if you enter the priesthood of Lathander, you are specialized in his worship. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 16:58:22
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I don't mind generic up until around level 3 - thats fine. The way the old SJ (and RL IIRC) rules had it, thats the point at which you are not generating the spells internally through faith - you actually need a god to answers your prayers.
So up unitl level 4, you CAN be 'just a cleric', but after that, you have to become a "priest of...", get it?
Thats when a PrC/sub-class/whatever should have to be taken. They could even super-simplify it, having choices along a generic priest-path, and then you have to choose from the list of abilities that goes with your god (with prerequisites, etc, of course).
EDIT: They could have done something along these lines with 4e, but I think they would have need more 'tiers' to make it work; like one every 5 levels or so.
EDIT2: Just realized, I have something similar in my Homebrew rules I've been working on (forever), except it uses 'Feat trees' with prerequisites. Mechanically, it works out to pretty-much the same thing. At level 4 you would take the 'Priest of...' Feat, get some sort of bonus for that, and then new feats (from that deity's list) become available as you move forward. Thus, you don't 'dip' into sub-classes/PrCs, you just make Feat-tree choices. People who think that sounds an awful lot like a VG would be correct, but as I said, mechanically there is no difference; we would just be streamlining a cumbersome system.
It also allows a priest to have more then one god... which is VERY Forgotten Realms... but D&D rules could never get that quite right. Of course, there would have to be a 'compatibility list' for that sort of thing, with DMs being able to add more as 'DM specials' (like Qilué Veladorn).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jan 2014 17:07:31 |
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Dreamstalker
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 19:50:03
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Something to keep in mind is that Cleric's in second edition all had the same sphere access despite deity, unless using a kit. Clerics were the most common type of priest over specialty priests, monks, mystics, crusaders, shamans, and druids. Aumanator, Gond, Helm, Ibrandul, Iyactu Xvim, Mielikki (only rangers!), and Shar are the major gods (in F&A) whose specialty priests lack major healing access. That was usually made up for by giving those specialty priests powers of other classes that made them more comparable to 3.x multiclass or odd base classes rather than straight clerics. Monks, shammans, paladins and rangers also lacked major healing sphere access. The spell list differences between most specialty priests and another priest class (cleric, crusader, druid, monk, mystic, shaman) is a lot less in practice than would appear by an initial glance. The deity specific spells create a lot more individual flavor.
Personally, I think what would really improve the domain system over the sphere system would be if domain spells could be prepared as normal, not just in domain slots. Move a few spells out of the base cleric list to only be accessed by domains. Then we end up with something able to fairly well replicate 2ed specialty priest without prestige classes, multiclassing still being needed for proficiency and skill setups. In some ways, Initiate of xxx feats already accomplish this.
If I ever get around to my homebrew d20 fantasy game I have the basic workings of a system that is sort of in between specialization, spheres and domains but for all characters. Basic core spell lists then a proficiency system that steals a lot of ideas from spheres. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11746 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 12:51:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dreamstalker
Something to keep in mind is that Cleric's in second edition all had the same sphere access despite deity, unless using a kit. Clerics were the most common type of priest over specialty priests, monks, mystics, crusaders, shamans, and druids. Aumanator, Gond, Helm, Ibrandul, Iyactu Xvim, Mielikki (only rangers!), and Shar are the major gods (in F&A) whose specialty priests lack major healing access. That was usually made up for by giving those specialty priests powers of other classes that made them more comparable to 3.x multiclass or odd base classes rather than straight clerics. Monks, shammans, paladins and rangers also lacked major healing sphere access. The spell list differences between most specialty priests and another priest class (cleric, crusader, druid, monk, mystic, shaman) is a lot less in practice than would appear by an initial glance. The deity specific spells create a lot more individual flavor.
Personally, I think what would really improve the domain system over the sphere system would be if domain spells could be prepared as normal, not just in domain slots. Move a few spells out of the base cleric list to only be accessed by domains. Then we end up with something able to fairly well replicate 2ed specialty priest without prestige classes, multiclassing still being needed for proficiency and skill setups. In some ways, Initiate of xxx feats already accomplish this.
If I ever get around to my homebrew d20 fantasy game I have the basic workings of a system that is sort of in between specialization, spheres and domains but for all characters. Basic core spell lists then a proficiency system that steals a lot of ideas from spheres.
That's a good point, for if they were to cut the base cleric class in half. If they had 3 or 4 spells per level in the domains, and none were in the generic cleric spell list, and each cleric got more than just 2 domains (say a deity gets access to 6 different domains and the cleric gets to eventually get all 6 after reaching say level 20, say 3 at 1st lvl and 1 every 5 levels thereafter). However, here's your problem. When they develop new cleric spells, do those go to the base cleric list? Do they go to existing domains (and thus some domains have more spells than others.. which could become unbalancing with time)? Do they go to some new domains that someone just made up? Do they go to some other non-cleric alternate classes as well? We see how well this kind of stuff got updated in 3e, where the wu jen and shugenja spell lists were rarely updated... and they skirted this problem with the spirit shaman by just giving them the druid list. However, IF they would properly update add-ons, the base idea is great. They'd need to develop a very stringent process for every new spell that lists out all the classes, schools of magic, and clerical domains and question "does this fit any of them?". Then you have to question, as much effort as this becomes, is it profitable. I would think doing a good job would draw people back, but it is a bit of a risk. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 15:12:29
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Thats very similar what I said - its just using different terminology. Mechanically, it all works out the same.
You would have 'spell slots' that are for normal spells, and then ones where you can choose from your deity's list. Call them powers, call them feats, call them skills, cal them my Uncle Harry.... it all works out the same.
Monte Cook using something like that in his Book of Experimental Might, he just calls them 'disciplines'. They are just 'powers' you can choose as you move forward, similar to class abilities, except they are not set-in-stone. Its sort of what they did to some classes in Dragon articles like taking the priests turning ability and making it more versatile, or how 3.5 allowed Rangers to chose from two paths to go down. Its basically making each character a little different with their abilities, and not just their feats (at which point I have to ask... why have both?)
He also gives a feat/discipline at each level - something I have also been doing for years. You just have to create a tier system within the Feat system (or call them different things, as Monte did). You have racial/background Feats, and major & minor feats (minor feats are all those great situational ones they had in 3e that no-one ever bothered to take, because there were better options).
Lots of ways to fix the priest class - they just need to move away from the paradigm that character abilities are all the same. A priest of Torm should be nothing like a priest of Bane. Sadly, I think 4e tried to do that, but they renamed so many mechanical aspects no-one could recognize it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jan 2014 15:14:05 |
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Deities and the healing domain
