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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 13:41:13
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So as the thread title says, a prospective demon lord can gain rulership over a layer if the demon can metaphysically conquer it?
1)However what would happen if a powerful, mortal spellcaster tried to do so? (Remember, epic level wizard)
2)Or if the wizard cant do it, the wizard could also force some entity to rule in their stead?
Note:Ruling a layer could also mean being top dog in the layer and making everything acknowledge that fact
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Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 14:16:37
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I once ran a solo adventure with no preplanned structure where a half-devil PC got involved in a political battle between Fierna and Belial on Phlegethos while fostering a cult to himself on Faerun. He was able to displace Belial with Fierna's support, then exploited a loophole in a contract he'd made with Fierna (which she'd included mistakenly thanks to the half-devils' insane luck and strong personal charisma) to effectively take over Phlegethos in all but name. Asmodeus was so impressed by his wit, charm and guile as well as by the cult's actions on the prime that he allowed his political machinations to stand unchallenged.
It was that PC's favourite ever campaign since it went so well for him and we were both slightly tipsy throughout all the game sessions. The cultists were funny too since I roleplayed them all as welsh stereotypes. That player has since moved away but it's all he ever talks about when the subject of DnD comes up in our online chats.
As for the Abyss, I think only power backed up by force would be an effective way to take over layers - a grand campaign during which the player invests in the power of the forces arrayed beneath him, taking epic magic from other planes and buying the loyalty of yuguloth armies, negotiating with night hags and engaging in personal combat or spellbattles with enemy generals. I don't know if getting another entity would be a good idea since trust is so hard to come by on any fiendish plane, especially the Abyss. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 22 Jan 2014 14:18:47 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 14:30:38
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Ye tread on dangerous ground mortal. If it were me (as a DM) I would require a metaphysical connection to the plane in order to truly rule any plane. Meaning, the plane itself must recognize you as 'one of its own' to accept you. Don't get me wrong, a powerful individual could conquer and possibly hold a large domain in the planes through sheer force, politics, etc. But, in order for the plane to recognize you (and other denizens of the Abyss, for that matter) you have to become connected to it.
Some (extremely powerful...and dangerous) ritual requiring the sacrifice of your soul to the Abyss would be in order. I would require multiple saves along the following lines: (Fortitude) in order to maintain a cohesive body...which gets altered by the plane to better suit your new found position. (Will) in order to exert control over your new domain, the process changes your 'spirit' into Abyss-stuff and you become a demon in both body and spirit. I would likely also include an Intelligence-based Reflex save to keep from going utterly insane in the process and being absorbed by the plane...and later regurgitated as a lower demon.
After all of that, many demons on the plane would sense your power and be attracted to your service (though others would seek to usurp and/or betray you). Other demon lords/princes would become aware of your presence as well (not all of them though) and you would get your first challenge to your power (but some would seek to use, I mean ally, with you. So, on the one hand you would receive a bit of help but, on the other, Orcus might come beating down your door.
The plane would demand a focus for your power as well (Orcus is the demon lord of undead, perhaps you become the demon lord of clowns...those things are friggin evil after all).  <----- I mean just look at that evil bastard.
The ritual should be grotesque in the extreme (cannibalizing demon flesh, sacrificing virgins in the most horrific manner imaginable, licking glass, whatever suits you). We're talking Grade A factory EBIL here.
Ruling in your stead? That's a touchy one. I'm thinking that anyone capable of doing that is capable of running the show themselves. But perhaps there is no ritual to allow you to become a demon lord so I suppose it's the next best thing. I would be very careful here though, you are obviously being used for someone else's purposes. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 15:31:55
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I wouldn't go as hard as The Arcanamach on someone trying to enforce his/her own rule on a random Layer of the Abyss.
Ignoring any attempt at the big ones we know from canon sources that a lot of layers are/were governed by beings with far less personal power and authority than full blown archdemons.
Eldanoth (picture a tiefling with snakes in place of fingers) is an agent of Orcus and fled his duties to start his own "business" on the unclaimed 359th Layer, and he is partially successful.
Adimarchus is a fallen celestial gone crazy that conquered Occipitus AND changed the rules for claiming it (and was later betrayed by Graz'zt's son and now is rotting in Carceri, but the Layer is still "his").
So i would say the first and biggest problem for any would be ruler is to enforce his claims by establishing himself as "top dog" (and this alone means a long string of battles, often fought in less than ideal conditions, with any type of demon having "home field" advantage over a mortal). Once that's done and the lesser demons start to respect the new boss the Layer will interact directly with the claimant. I don't think all Layers are inherently seeking indipendence, after all, a strong ruler that brings a lot of souls to it is better than simply remaining a battlefield. So i think that if the claimant is CE the Layer will simply grant him/her morphing powers and wait and see, anything with an L in the alignment is probably out of luck and would risk getting swallowed by the terrain itself, anything with a G in the alignment will probably be thoroughly tested with a long series of gruesome rituals and sacrifice (like the ones suggeste by The Arcanamach and worse) that will probably ensure the G turns into an E very quickly.
It's my opinion that is far harder to keep the rule of a Layer than to claim it in the first place: to claim it you need to be the most powerful resident; to keep it you need to enforce your rule on anything that passes by, you need to secure and defend any planar connection (to other Layers and other Planes), you need to avoid getting on the radar of the "big ones" until you're ready to defend yourselves, you need a costant stream of new souls to keep your army up, you need to beware backstabbers in your ranks and (if mortal) any demon in the Abyss that thinks you're not fit to rule on even a tiny fragment of the Plane.
Killing a bunch of balors and mariliths is just the start, and considering demons don't need to eat or sleep any mortal would be mightily challenged in keeping the game up 24/7.
Personally, in an "all stars aligned" setup with an epic spellcaster i would try to get a demiplane (with the epic spell, forgot the name) and stuff it with all kinds of traps and bound servants (something that by itself would take a lot of time) while starting some kind of cult on a Prime (think something like: teleport to random village and buff up people with stupid spells like mass bull's strength or using unseen servants to do tasks, all in exchange for worship and sacrifices) then choose an unclaimed crappy Layer of the Abyss, build a portal connecting it to my demiplane and use it to stage incursions and retreat there to rest. Something like this, all the way praying the DM doesn't start throwing random inconveniences my way (planar raiders, adventurers that mess with my cultists, bound servants freeing themselves, ecc...). |
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Ruling the Abyss!
