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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11749 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 13:54:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See, this is precisely the problem they face.
This was my least favorite supplement. It bored me to tears - I never even finished reading through the whole thing.
Sorry, thats just how I felt. The Moonshaes weren't in Ed's Realms - it was another setting entirely that was poorly pasted in, and one of the things I would really like to see gone in 5e, or the "Ed Greenwood Presents.." books(s).
If it was stand-alone setting (as it was intended), I probably would have enjoyed it more, but the whole wishy-washy Earthmother/Chauntea thing really left a bad taste in my mouth.
Once again, I apologize - I understand the purpose of the thread, but I just wanted it to be known (to 'the powers that be') that not everyone liked the Moonshaes. The concept, YES - the bad paste-job, NO.
The example wasn't based on the material, but on the method. I could've used much of the Savage Frontier supplements as an example as well. Although it had some (very brief) mentions of the outcomes/characters from The Crystal Shard, the supplement is set in 1357 and yet includes nothing on either Streams of Silver or The Halflings Gem and yet the supplement works wonderfully without them. Simply put, I believe the Realms is better when the supplements are separated (as much as is reasonable) from the novels, thus providing DM's with more options and information, but without invalidating the canon of the novels.
I do believe savage frontier came out before streams of silver (doublecheck me, but I recall reading streams of silver and already knowing all about uthgardt barbarian tribes). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11749 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 14:01:53
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| lets face it, the first few novels were in these "pasted-on" areas because they needed to give the authors the ability to write something before they had a final product for release ready (i.e. they wanted to release the product and follow on quickly with books). Thus the past-on of icewind dale and the Moonshaes. That being said, both feel just about as pasted on to me as say Halruaa, Lantan, Dambrath and Nimbral.... which is to say they're outside the "core" realms areas that have gotten focus and thus you don't see a lot of interaction with them as other areas (though, I'll admit that they have done a relatively good job with Halruaa and the Moonshaes over time integrating them more). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2014 : 16:55:00
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
lets face it, the first few novels were in these "pasted-on" areas because they needed to give the authors the ability to write something before they had a final product for release ready (i.e. they wanted to release the product and follow on quickly with books). Thus the past-on of icewind dale and the Moonshaes. That being said, both feel just about as pasted on to me as say Halruaa, Lantan, Dambrath and Nimbral.... which is to say they're outside the "core" realms areas that have gotten focus and thus you don't see a lot of interaction with them as other areas (though, I'll admit that they have done a relatively good job with Halruaa and the Moonshaes over time integrating them more).
I'm not a game designer but they don't feel as pasted on to me as I think they may do others. From a biologists view point, the Moonshaes are EXPECTED to be unique, totally different, with strange twists on existing races, flora and fauna. The Moonshaes and Icewind Dale are no more pasted on than the Galapagos Islands, Madagascar, or Antarctica are pasted on to the Earth.
When ecosystems evolve isolated from the mainland they evolve in a vacuum under different selective pressures, often in the abscense of competition or under EXTREME competition for limited resources.
Thus, the result is expected to be quite different but certainly recognizable from the "MAIN". |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 19:49:46
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One could also easily argue that many of the recent novels/editions have little relationship to Ed's Realms either and therefore should be considered less pure and summarily dismissed.
My point in starting this thread (almost 2 years ago) was that the Moonshae Book (FR2 precisely) is a perfect template for how sourcebooks should be written (ie full of lore that predates the novel(s) from that region. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 20:58:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
My point in starting this thread (almost 2 years ago) was that the Moonshae Book (FR2 precisely) is a perfect template for how sourcebooks should be written (ie full of lore that predates the novel(s) from that region.
The counter I would offer to this is that setting sourcebooks before relevant novels means that for some, the novels would therefore invalidate the sourcebooks. While it's obvious not possible to always have sourcebooks follow novels, I know that I, for one, greatly prefer to read about the changes to an area wrought during the novel, instead of reading what the area was like before it was changed by the novel. Until the advent of the Spellplague, I greatly preferred to stay on top of the latest canon. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 22:38:15
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| I wouldn't be surprised if after the Sundering, Elminster takes Azuth's place. Though I'd hate to see the end of the Old Mage novel line as I love the nuggets of lore we can pick out of it and the stories are fun. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1845 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 23:16:42
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| I don't think that's gonna happen Eilserus. I think Azuth's on his way back from Asmo's head and El will continue as he always has (but will be in the background more methinks). That doesn't mean we wont get any El books though...they can be written in the past with all that juicy lore-laden goodness we love so much. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 01:49:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Apex
My point in starting this thread (almost 2 years ago) was that the Moonshae Book (FR2 precisely) is a perfect template for how sourcebooks should be written (ie full of lore that predates the novel(s) from that region.
The counter I would offer to this is that setting sourcebooks before relevant novels means that for some, the novels would therefore invalidate the sourcebooks. While it's obvious not possible to always have sourcebooks follow novels, I know that I, for one, greatly prefer to read about the changes to an area wrought during the novel, instead of reading what the area was like before it was changed by the novel. Until the advent of the Spellplague, I greatly preferred to stay on top of the latest canon.
I guess in general I agree but in reading FR2, it was specifically set up to set the stage for the novels, and then also set the stage for you to run YOUR PCs through the events of the novel.
I think it can go either way, but in this respect i think it was handy, but not necessary, to set the table so to speak before eating the meal (the novels came out) at least for the gaming folks.
The FR2 was specifically meant to promote the novels, not vice versa, and in that respect I think they hit it out of the park in capturing the D&D crowd into the novel line. |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 20:49:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The counter I would offer to this is that setting sourcebooks before relevant novels means that for some, the novels would therefore invalidate the sourcebooks. While it's obvious not possible to always have sourcebooks follow novels, I know that I, for one, greatly prefer to read about the changes to an area wrought during the novel, instead of reading what the area was like before it was changed by the novel. Until the advent of the Spellplague, I greatly preferred to stay on top of the latest canon.
Except of course, for those of us that would prefer the novels not change the Realms in a way significant enough to invalidate a sourcebook.
Also, by placing the sourcebooks prior to the novels makes it much easier for DM's to either dismiss novels they don't like or to run their players through adventures based on the novels they do like. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 21:30:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
Except of course, for those of us that would prefer the novels not change the Realms in a way significant enough to invalidate a sourcebook.
Also, by placing the sourcebooks prior to the novels makes it much easier for DM's to either dismiss novels they don't like or to run their players through adventures based on the novels they do like.
Thank you. This encapsulates a couple of vital tweaks that are long overdue.
The novels should never invalidate anything... and when they do, one of two things has to happen. Either the novel is trumped by the game sources, or new game sources are released to describe the new area. Neither of these are attractive options, so the overriding conclusion should be that novels are set in the Realms... they don't change the Realms. Except in cases like the Sundering series where changes are being explained in novels and new game sources are already lined up to describe the new incarnation of the setting. The game sources need to always be current.
Regarding adventures-based-on-modules, I can only hope that the Powers That Be were educated by the Avatar trilogy. The big ball of lore in those adventures was great, but the PCs were reduced to hirelings and railroaded through the plot. The vaguely-named Empires trilogy (based on the Crusade novels) was much better, since it created a spin-off of the novel plots... the PCs were running around doing things concurrent with but mostly unaffected by the novels. |
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FR2 Moonshae as a Template for Future 5E Realms
