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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jul 2011 : 17:12:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Erm, Mister X, if you will re-read my last post, I said that of those two hundred left, they would be somewhat evenly divided in sexes. So it would be about 100 of each, give or take, but the female commoners/soldiers would be above their male counterparts, and only be commanded by the noble males or the weapon master or house mage or patron themselves- but since most of those female soldiers would probably be considered "elite" guards (Just as the guards in Arach-Tinilith were all female, and in fact there were NO males there at all!), they would more likely be under the direct command of the Matron or her daughters themselves. (Because they are more trusted than male guards.) And I also had the tiers (in a more simplified form) as Suru put them- though not in the same format. I'll agree almost completely with his rankings, and add that the noble males were allowed into that particular brothel by invitation only. Even the proprietor did not want just ANY males walking in. He had a business to protect. BTW, the non-drow tier covers both males and females of other slave races. Obviously, in Sorcere or Melee-Magthere, most of the guards would probably be male, but a typical House would have a mix. But within that mix, the females would be most likely to have command positions.
You're obviously wanting to paint a picture of a society where females are held in high regard, just for being female. Where even a lowly commoner female is shown deference and respect over males generally. But frankly, that just isn't how drow society works, once you step away from looking at the nobility.
Sure, if we were looking at Paradise Island, where Wonder Woman comes from, or the Amazon tribes of Xena Warrior Princess, or some other Amazonian society, I'd be right there agreeing with you. But in a drow society? No way, no how. Consistently, you're ignoring that Lolth -and- drow society allow (and encourage!) power, skill, and cleverness to win out over gender. And you're using rare, unusual singular examples (from House Baenre, or general oddities in Menzoberranzan) to support your position.
There is no "respect" in drow society, for being female or anything else. Excise that thought right away. Fear? Yes. Envy? Yes. Respect? Never. Females hate each other, for the power and influence that one has and the other doesn't. They are in constant competition with each other, and where such a thing might be sisterly and respectful in an Amazon society, it's cold and malignant in drow society. Everything is done for individual success, to impress Lolth and gain power/status. One does not award position to fallen enemies, simply because they are female (again, House Baenre / Menzo is an oddity in this regard); those who lose favor with Lolth are either dead or enslaved.
Another thing you have to remember, drow society is intentionally kept unstable and chaotic by Lolth herself. If you read her entries on religion and dogma, regardless of what unusual and unique things have happened in Menzoberranzan, Lolth constantly tests her priestesses by removing powers, shifting favor, or just plain fracking with them. Those who can navigate Lolth's capricious "favor" simply survive for another day. There's no respect granted for high positions, there's no "sisterly bonding" or helping other females out. Such things are a route to a quick death in drow society.
Instead of holding up House Baenre as an "example" in drow society let's think about why it has some incredibly odd things going on and probably should never be considered an example.
- When Triel became matron mother, their house dynamic became confused and muddled. Generally, only a matron's daughters (and a few sons) are considered noble. Sisters, brothers, cousins, even grandchildren aren't usually considered noble. But somehow, Gromph and Triel's sisters are still treated as nobles.
- House Baenre brought in a few allies from crushed, broken houses. This is extremely unusual, as individuals from broken houses typically lose all status. They usually become commoners, or slaves, and are never typically treated like "sisters" or relatives. The only thing that might make sense as to why the original matron did this might be if she wanted a specific ally or to hold a secret card in her hand that could later be used against another house. But again, very atypical because fallen houses are usually seen as having lost favor with Lolth.
- considering the elite female guard of House Baenre, there is no additional "respect" for them because they are female. In fact, female fighters are looked down upon (generally, in drow society) as those who couldn't cut it as either priestesses or mages. And that's not good. But Matron Yvonnel liked unusual things, so she hand-picked an elite guard. I'll guarantee you, though, that each member of that guard had to have been extremely skilled otherwise she wouldn't have even considered it. There would be no point to having an elite guard that's less skilled than another house's male guards.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 01 Jul 2011 17:50:43 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2011 : 17:40:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Suru
Tier 1
Matron Mothers, 8 Houses
Tier 2
Matron Mothers other houses
Tier 3
Headmistress, High Priestesses
Tier 4
Priestesses
Tier 5
Noble Females
Tier 6
Arch Mage, Masters of the Academies, House Mages, Weapon Masters
Tier 7
Noble Males
Tier 8
Commoner Females
Tier 9
Commoner Males
Tier 10
Female Slaves
Tier 11
Male Slaves
Tier 12
Non-Drow
This is certainly the case (with the small modification I've bolded) in cities like Menzoberranzan and Ched Nasad where the dynamic is "typical" and there aren't a lot of unusual things that have happened to shake things up or challenge the basic power of the priestesses.
But I do want to emphatically say that Lolth, being chaotic and unstable herself, encourages diversity and shake-ups for her different cities. Where some might see the few cities where males / wizards lead instead of priestesses as "not right" and "not what Lolth wants", I would argue that Lolth encouraged these things to happen. Where Corellon's elvish societies are very structured and don't change much from city-to-city in terms of their dynamics, Lolth is the deity that fracks with the status quo, suddenly grants or removes favor, or on rare occasions will even lead drow groups around with her avatar acting like a messiah. Those male-dominated cities are still her cities, because the power-mongering, fear, hatred, backstabbing, and hunger for control is still there.
Lolth definitely doesn't like competition with other deities for worship, that's very true; she would hate it if a city completely turned to Vhaeraun or Ghaunadaur or Eilistraee. But those things too, in their own way, keep her people constantly jockeying for power and position. For Lolth, that's what it's all about.
All drow cities are Lolth's cities, whether or not they use the "typical" power structure outlined above.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 01 Jul 2011 17:43:17 |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2011 : 17:50:25
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| There's nothing to add. |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2011 : 17:57:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
All drow cities are Lolth's cities, whether or not they use the "typical" power structure outlined above.
-Mmm...I don't fully agree with this. The only way I can agree is if you want to consider non-Lolthite cities reactionary against Lolth, in how their societal structure works, and I don't think that would be "fair", so to speak. That is to say, that non-Lolthite cities specifically structure society in a way to not be like Lolth's, with Lolth and how she likes things specifically in mind. That, I think gives too much credit to Lolth and her followers, and not enough to other Drow deities and their followers. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2011 : 18:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
All drow cities are Lolth's cities, whether or not they use the "typical" power structure outlined above.
-Mmm...I don't fully agree with this. The only way I can agree is if you want to consider non-Lolthite cities reactionary against Lolth, in how their societal structure works, and I don't think that would be "fair", so to speak. That is to say, that non-Lolthite cities specifically structure society in a way to not be like Lolth's, with Lolth and how she likes things specifically in mind. That, I think gives too much credit to Lolth and her followers, and not enough to other Drow deities and their followers.
There are no "non-Lolthite" drow cities. There are drow cities where the power dynamic is different from Menzoberranzan, but they still have Lolth priestesses and follow the basic "jockeying for position and personal power" at the cost of most everything else. Taking power from the priestesses, as has been done by males / wizards in certain cities, is just part of Lolth's way.
Lolth works on an immediate "here and now" level, but she also works in the long term. Sometimes her plans are extremely long term. Drow cities that have put down the priestesses might be viewed as having lost Lolth entirely, or they can more appropriately, IMO, be viewed as a test by Lolth. After all, her priestesses in those male-dominated cities still get Lolth-derived powers and spells. Whether Lolth encouraged this as a test, or even if it's just a personal whim, those priestesses still have Lolth's favor. Therefore, the city is still doing Lolth's will, regardless of the current societal structure.
Male mages in that male-dominated city still assassinate each other to gain rank. They are in constant fear of their lessers, and must guard continually against others who would want to steal their tomes and other magical items. Whether they realize it or not, they are still worshipping Lolth unless they specifically choose another deity or remove themselves from Lolth's overall system by undergoing self-exile. |
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2011 : 22:52:38
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quote:
originally posted by Eltheron
There are no "non-Lolthite" drow cities.
In fact, there is at least one: Llurth Dreir, "the accursed city". Lolth has turned her back on that city hundreds of years ago, so there is none cleric of her's (as stated in the 3.5 "Underdark" supplement). The city is dominated by Ghaunadaur and, hear, Elistraee.
But I'd agree that the basics of Lolth's "working procedures" are followed there, as well. So the Drow will assassinate each other for power and wealth there, too. :) |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2011 : 01:57:29
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quote:
Originally posted by MisterX
quote:
originally posted by Eltheron
There are no "non-Lolthite" drow cities.
In fact, there is at least one: Llurth Dreir, "the accursed city". Lolth has turned her back on that city hundreds of years ago, so there is none cleric of her's (as stated in the 3.5 "Underdark" supplement). The city is dominated by Ghaunadaur and, hear, Elistraee.
But I'd agree that the basics of Lolth's "working procedures" are followed there, as well. So the Drow will assassinate each other for power and wealth there, too. :)
Ah, very true, I hadn't really thought of that city. Did we ever learn the reason why Lolth has forsaken that city?
Lolth is a very fun deity for a being of sheer evil, and has been sadly overshadowed by chump deities like Cyric who just waltz in and gain greater deity status with negligible effort. *sigh* |
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2011 : 02:26:44
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quote:
originally posted by Eltheron
Did we ever learn the reason why Lolth has forsaken that city?
The "Underdark" says Lolth has been offended by the Drow of the city. Must've been some joke made by the high council involving Corellon and a bed or sth if you ask me… :D |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2011 : 06:20:50
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| -There are a variety of Drow settlements (not necessarily 'city-sized', per se), on both the surface world, and in the Underdark, that are led by Drow who are not affiliated with Lolth. In addition to Llurth Dreir, there is also: The Promenade (Eilistraee), V’elddrinnsshar (Kiaransalee), Ched Nesad (Vhaeraun, post 1371 DR), various Vhaeraunite settlements on the surface, Szith Morcane (Male Magocracy), Rilauven (non-affiliated oligarchy), Karsoluthiyl (Lolth's influence waning, Vhaeraun's rising, post 1371 DR). There are various others, to be sure, that I did not bother looking into. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2011 : 06:26:44
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"No, actually, about half that number would not even be drow. They would be slaves of other races. There would probably be about seven female nobles, (especially considering the rule regarding third-born living sons) and three male nobles- the rest of the house would likely be evenly divided in sexes,..... So out of the entire house of 400, only half might be drow, the rest would be goblins and such- and they are only counted in the house for purposes of "ready forces". "
This was the part I was referring to about numbers being roughly equal among the soldiers. Hope that clears it up.
And on to your reply.... "You're obviously wanting to paint a picture of a society where females are held in high regard, just for being female. Where even a lowly commoner female is shown deference and respect over males generally. But frankly, that just isn't how drow society works, once you step away from looking at the nobility."
That's because the ARE respected for that reason. Here is an excerpt from a recent source, 3.5 Drow of the Underdark, that explains it very well. This is canon for D&D in general, as well as supporting the lore from the FR books and novels.
"The supremacy of the female is deeply ingrained in drow
culture. Females are seen as stronger, smarter, and more emotionally
controlled than males, and—above all—holier and
more devoted to Lolth. Males, on the other hand, are viewed
as spiritually, intellectually, and physically inferior, useful
primarily for physical and skilled labor and breeding purposes.
A male drow is seen as superior to a member of any other race,
but inferior even to female drow of lower status.
This attitude comes from a variety of separate but related
sources. The first and most obvious is Lolth herself. The goddess
has, over the course of drow mythology and history,
taken multiple consorts, all of whom have been eventually
discarded. Whether this is the cause of Lolth’s opinion of
males or a symptom of it, Lolth believes that only females are
worthwhile servants.
Much like the spiders they revere, drow females also hold
power due to biological reasons. In many spider species, the
females are far larger and stronger, and males often do not
survive the mating process. Drow childbirth is a physically
strenuous occasion (see the Pregnancy, Birth, and Childhood
sidebar, page 24), and though the drow feel little if any affection
for their young, they understand the importance of continuing
the family and house lines. Thus, the females, who are
both essential to reproduction and capable of withstanding
it, are clearly both stronger and more blessed than the males.
Whether the drow think as they do because of their emulation
of spiders is unclear and ultimately unimportant.
Finally and perhaps most important, females are already
ascendant within drow society. Matriarchs and priestesses
have enough trouble clinging to power in the face of other
ambitious females; the last thing they want is to double the
pool of potential rivals. Thus, the tradition of female dominance
continues, in large part, at the behest of the females
who are already dominant.
Male drow hold little if any power, but not all of them are
mere property, even if many females see them as such. Some
of the most skilled crafters, warriors, and arcane casters among
the drow are male. In fact, the submissive status of males in
drow society actually inspires many of them to excel. Male
drow can lay claim to little authority, and they are constantly
at risk of being discarded by their female leaders, so only those
with skills and abilities that are not easily replaceable can be
relatively confident of their positions.
Denied the right to formally influence society, male drow
have become masters of finding subtle and nontraditional
roads to power. Many become teachers of arcane magic or
military strategy, attempting to form strong bonds with their
students— particularly the females who might well hold
power in the next generation. Others join the soldiers of a
powerful house or the priestesses of Lolth, working their way
up in the ranks. At the very least, these positions grant them
some measure of authority, and if they are fortunate enough
to be officers during wartime (or devious enough to start a
well-timed war), that authority can grow to rival that of some
matriarchs. And of course, some drow males attempt to seduce
powerful females, using lust— and even the rare emotion of
love— to influence drow leaders behind the scenes."
Clearly, the female/male issue is well defined, and this is why I've asserted that the females are so revered- Lolth herself feels that females are stronger, smarter, and more capable- and who is going to argue with a goddess? Sure, she encourages skill, power, and cleverness, but not at the cost of upending her carefully-constructed status quo. I'm not ignoring that aspect at all, but the skill of an individual drow of either gender is irrelevant, and to them, is literally of no importance. All that matters to them is the collective power of one's own House, beginning with its Matron and priestesses. All others are simply tools for them to exploit!
Your definition of respect is based on real-world thinking, it seems. I am not talking about respect as we know it, but as it would be defined by the drow themselves. Thier idea of respect seems to be based solely on what one can achieve, how high one has/can climb, and whether one belongs to a "respectable" (read- high-ranked) House or not. It has nothing to do with personal regard or mutual consideration at all, which is what our modern idea of respect entails. To them, respect and fear are the same thing!
"Everything is done for individual success, to impress Lolth and gain power/status. One does not award position to fallen enemies, simply because they are female (again, House Baenre / Menzo is an oddity in this regard); those who lose favor with Lolth are either dead or enslaved."
Actually, this is where you are mistaken. Baenre/Menzo have been stated several times (and in multiple sources) as "typical" drow cities! They practice her worship as they have for millenia, with little change. There was never any mention of giving position within a house to fallen enemies. (except for common soldiers, who often switch sides after their house has lost to avoid being executed.) The members of fallen houses I mentioned before were the surviving nobles of houses that were attacked but whose attackers failed to eliminate all the members of the house they were attacking. Baenre took several such survivors in and adopted them as part of their family in Homeland, and there is mention in Dissolution of one of Triel's sisters not being of Baenre blood, but adopted. This was what I was discussing earlier on that topic of drow from a fallen house gaining position in their "new" family. And this practice appears to be fairly common, at least with some houses. Commoners can even be adopted into the family formally, if they show real promise as priestesses (or other skills), not to mention male commoners being allowed to take the house names if they achieve the rank of Weapon Master or Patron or House Mage. However, this is still and always at the Matron's discretion. Individual power or skill is of FAR less importance than that of the House or its priestesses. Lolth cares little for individuals than she does for the power of Houses in her favor. Where individual power contributes to the overall power of his/her House, she gives favor, but if it undermines that house, she is more likely to turn away from the individual as going against her decrees. Family over ALL is part of her dictates. (I see the drow as sort of like the Mob, in that respect....)
"When Triel became matron mother, their house dynamic became confused and muddled. Generally, only a matron's daughters (and a few sons) are considered noble. Sisters, brothers, cousins, even grandchildren aren't usually considered noble. But somehow, Gromph and Triel's sisters are still treated as nobles."
The only thing really muddled about it was Triel's own position. She was not as confident or as ruthless as her mother, and so was faced with problems that her mother would not have even blinked at. As for the "odditiy" of her brothers and sisters still being nobles, that's really simple, though two-fold. First, they were ALREADY nobles of the house before her ascension, and second, she had only one child of her own- the draegloth Jeggred. (And it was even hinted that she was never likely to have any, due to her "sexual inclinations".) It was not Triel's daughters that were the nobles of the family (she HAD none), but Yvonnel's. And any one of them could have started their own noble house, as well, but they simply chose not to, in order to maintain Baenre's superiority. Family is ALL!
As for members of crushed houses loosing status, I've never read anywhere that this is the case. They are still nobles by birth, and can either rebuild their own House, or be taken into any other standing house that wishes to do so. They might be treated as lesser members of that house, but there is nothing specifically stated to reduce them to commoners, AFAIK. That is not mentioned anywhere. They are simply considered "poor relations" by the house that takes them in, from all indications. This also seems to be one of the few ways a member of a fallen house can regain Lolth's favor, especially if she then manages to move up the ladder of her new family....
Regarding the male-dominant city of Sshamath, and the wizards still worshiping her and doing her will, I'd have to say no, based on what was written in the Lady Penitant series. Lolth largely seemed to ignore that city after the shift and the take-over by the wizards, and apparently none of those wizards actually worshiped her at all- in fact, a spy of hers was uncovered attempting to propose a bardic school that would have been under her direct rule (the Lolthite bardic order, the name of which I forget ATM) and she was booted out summarily. As soon as they found out she was a Lolthite and that one HAD to be one to join the bardic tower she was petitioning for, they refused her outright. So much for them following Lolth. And several of the members of the established schools had renounced her completely, and there was even a brief mention that they wished to KEEP her from ever taking power in the city again, so it's a fair bet that Sshamath itself, while still harboring a few priestesses and a temple or two to her, did not in fact follow Lolth. This is all from the LP books, so it is valid as evidence against her rule there. And they don't have to undergo self-exile, they've already mostly stripped her power in that city to almost nothing. (A temple or two remain, but have little influence or real power within the city, or among the mostly wizard-run society.
"Regarding the "elite guards" – yes, most women are better fighters than their male counterparts since drow females are bigger and stronger. But "elite" comes with strength and skill, not strength and sex. I strongly agree that there are more females in high positions than males. But – leaving the clerics aside – a male drow can by principle achieve any position a female can. It's just (much) harder. So there are some (but few) male elite fighters as well. Again: To become number one (#8594; Weapon Master) you've to train a long time as number two. If there were no male #2 – we'd get a female #1, when the former #1 passes out…"
Unfortunately, the scenes in Arach-Tinilith in Dissolution do not bear this out, nor those in House Baenre itself. All of the guards in the clerical school were female by default, as they are the only ones allowed in (except for males during their last six months of training at the other two schools- but they would not be allowed to remain as guards, and certainly not "elite" ones!) All of Quenthel's and Triel's personal retinues were female as well, and this is entirely understandable, given that they would not trust males with such important positions of protecting their mistress. (They have much less reason to be vigilant, after all- if they fail, it's one less female to order them around, lol!)
"considering the elite female guard of House Baenre, there is no additional "respect" for them because they are female. In fact, female fighters are looked down upon (generally, in drow society) as those who couldn't cut it as either priestesses or mages. And that's not good. But Matron Yvonnel liked unusual things, so she hand-picked an elite guard. I'll guarantee you, though, that each member of that guard had to have been extremely skilled otherwise she wouldn't have even considered it. There would be no point to having an elite guard that's less skilled than another house's male guards."
On the contrary, this appears to be a common practice, and I've seen nothing to show that female fighters are looked down on. Honor guards are a position of extreme trust and prestige, so naturally drow would vie for these positions. And yes, Matrons often DO hand-pick their personal guards- they have to be able to trust them with their lives. It's not likely any Matron would hold enough regard for any of the males of her house to give them that sort of prestigious position to protect her. Yvonnel was hardly unusual in doing this. Malice did it too. (A typical honor guard, BTW, seems to consist of eight battle-priestesses, armed with maces and/or tentacle rods, IIRC.) BTW, the "respect" is not JUST because of their gender, but their training, as well. They are called "elite" guards for a reason, after all! (And I recall that even Liriel had some training as a fighter. The ones in these positions are usually females who were better at fighting then at clerical magic, but many are still battle-priestesses, and quite capable of using both.)
"In fact, there is at least one: Llurth Dreir, "the accursed city". Lolth has turned her back on that city hundreds of years ago, so there is none cleric of her's (as stated in the 3.5 "Underdark" supplement). The city is dominated by Ghaunadaur and, hear, Elistraee.
But I'd agree that the basics of Lolth's "working procedures" are followed there, as well. So the Drow will assassinate each other for power and wealth there, too. :)"
I'd add the caveat here that this would only be true of the Ghaunadaurans. The Eilistraeeans do not practice such customs or fight among themselves. And they care little for power or wealth, except perhaps to further their goddess's works, (The wealth, not the power.)
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2011 : 10:19:37
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quote:
originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
originally posted by MisterX
Regarding the "elite guards" – yes, most women are better fighters than their male counterparts since drow females are bigger and stronger. But "elite" comes with strength and skill, not strength and sex. I strongly agree that there are more females in high positions than males. But – leaving the clerics aside – a male drow can by principle achieve any position a female can. It's just (much) harder. So there are some (but few) male elite fighters as well. Again: To become number one (-> Weapon Master) you've to train a long time as number two. If there were no male #2 – we'd get a female #1, when the former #1 passes out…
Unfortunately, the scenes in Arach-Tinilith in Dissolution do not bear this out, nor those in House Baenre itself. All of the guards in the clerical school were female by default, as they are the only ones allowed in (except for males during their last six months of training at the other two schools- but they would not be allowed to remain as guards, and certainly not "elite" ones!) All of Quenthel's and Triel's personal retinues were female as well, and this is entirely understandable, given that they would not trust males with such important positions of protecting their mistress. (They have much less reason to be vigilant, after all- if they fail, it's one less female to order them around, lol!)
Please, please leave out the clerics while talking at a generalized level! Of course there are no male guards in the city's most important temple (Arach Tinilith). And of course men are forbidden to join an all female school teaching Lolth-priestesses…
But regarding the army of any random house (say, #12) it's just very unlikely to assume that of, say, 200 soldiers one male is the weapon's master, followed in ranks by 100 females, followed by 99 males. It's military. If a soldier outranks another, he is likely to lead in combat just because of the "chain of command". In a combat and an ongoing war, leaders are either skilled - or dead. So we can say that rank roughly equals skill – since the Drow are constantly at war.
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originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
originally posted by MisterX
But I'd agree that the basics of Lolth's "working procedures" are followed there, as well. So the Drow will assassinate each other for power and wealth there, too. :)
I'd add the caveat here that this would only be true of the Ghaunadaurans. The Eilistraeeans do not practice such customs or fight among themselves. And they care little for power or wealth, except perhaps to further their goddess's works, (The wealth, not the power.)
FunFact: Even in Elistraeean society, females are considered more worthy than males (taken from War of the Spider Queen). |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2011 : 18:03:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
That's because the ARE respected for that reason. Here is an excerpt from a recent source, 3.5 Drow of the Underdark, that explains it very well. This is canon for D&D in general, as well as supporting the lore from the FR books and novels.
I understand the canon very well, but you're misreading it. At no point do they use the words "reverence" or "respect" or "trust" (as you have done, repeatedly) when talking about drow females. They say "belief in superiority" or "supremacy" and it's "ingrained in drow culture" not drow religion per se. Drow might revere Lolth, or spiders, or the Matron Mother of one's own house. But the typical female drow (in the vast majority) does not show reverence, respect, or trust to another female. Lolth actually hates such things, because they foster emotional attachments, and she will painfully teach lessons to crush said emotions.
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Clearly, the female/male issue is well defined, and this is why I've asserted that the females are so revered- Lolth herself feels that females are stronger, smarter, and more capable- and who is going to argue with a goddess? Sure, she encourages skill, power, and cleverness, but not at the cost of upending her carefully-constructed status quo. I'm not ignoring that aspect at all, but the skill of an individual drow of either gender is irrelevant, and to them, is literally of no importance. All that matters to them is the collective power of one's own House, beginning with its Matron and priestesses. All others are simply tools for them to exploit!
Seriously, what are you smoking? An individual's skill is irrelevant and of no importance? How can you have read the sourcebooks and come up with this crazy messed up interpretation? I'll agree, certainly, that every member of a house wants their house to gain power... but come on... how do you think they accomplish that goal?
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Your definition of respect is based on real-world thinking, it seems. I am not talking about respect as we know it, but as it would be defined by the drow themselves...
Oh good grief, you're wanting to change the meaning of terms now?
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Baenre/Menzo have been stated several times (and in multiple sources) as "typical" drow cities!...
...First, they were ALREADY nobles of the house before her ascension, and second, she had only one child of her own- the draegloth Jeggred. (And it was even hinted that she was never likely to have any, due to her "sexual inclinations".) It was not Triel's daughters that were the nobles of the family (she HAD none), but Yvonnel's. And any one of them could have started their own noble house, as well, but they simply chose not to, in order to maintain Baenre's superiority. Family is ALL!
Are you suggesting that once someone's a noble, even males, that they "typically" retain their status as a noble - even if a female cousin were to replace the current Matron Mother (their biological mother)?
I mean, if you really think that every daughter of a given Matron retains their noble status upon her death, and can then in fact create their own noble house by becoming a Matron and having their own daughters (which would then also be noble, even if she then dies), then I guess I can see why you think there are a bajillion female nobles within a given house or city. Any female with a weak / extended blood tie to a current or previous matron (so long as the matron was never disgraced) would be a noble in your book. Distant cousins, nieces, adopted females from another city, do you seriously think that's the case?
Honestly, the only reason House Baenre can get away with these things is because they already hold the top position. They can do whatever they want, so long as they retain that power. That's why they're unique. Any house in the top position on a city's council could theoretically do the same. In that way, House Baenre is "typical" - but it's absolutely NOT the case that House Baenre is a "typical" model of ALL noble houses within a single city.
When I read the sourcebooks, I see things very differently than you do:
- The total number of ranked noble houses in a given city is determined by the ruling council.
- The only "nobles" are the current house Matrons of a ranked house and their biological daughters and sons. Cousins, grandchildren, or other extended family blood-ties are not considered "noble" unless their matron mother is in the First House and has given them a special dispensation or ranking (as with Triel and her siblings).
- If a given Matron dies, all her children lose their noble status (unless a daughter has previously moved out and started her own noble house, becoming a Matron herself, or she takes over her mother's house as new Matron). They can stay in their house and serve it, they can even retain a certain rank depending on the whims of the current matron, but they're no longer a member of the nobility. In the case where a daughter replaces her mother as new Matron, only her blood children are considered noble (again, unless you're in the First House and can do whatever you want).
- Adoptions from other houses, or ceremonially adding a given female (or partial house) into a current noble house, only creates the equivalent of a "clan affiliation" and does not make one noble. Adopted nobles from broken houses do not retain their noble status in their new house.
- Holding "rank" within a noble house does not also mean you are noble. All nobles are highly ranked, but all ranked positions are not noble. You can be adopted and highly ranked, or a highly ranked child of a former matron, but rank and house affiliation for a female doesn't automatically make you a noble.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 03 Jul 2011 18:10:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 05:58:40
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Eltheron- No, I am not changing the meaning of the term respect NOW, this is the definition I've been using all along. Respect does not mean the same thing to a drow that it does to us, and my posts reflect that in how I've been using the term.
"I understand the canon very well, but you're misreading it. At no point do they use the words "reverence" or "respect" or "trust" (as you have done, repeatedly) when talking about drow females. They say "belief in superiority" or "supremacy" and it's "ingrained in drow culture" not drow religion per se. Drow might revere Lolth, or spiders, or the Matron Mother of one's own house. But the typical female drow (in the vast majority) does not show reverence, respect, or trust to another female. Lolth actually hates such things, because they foster emotional attachments, and she will painfully teach lessons to crush said emotions."
I am misreading it how, exactly? I already stated that drow do not define "respect" (I'll use it in quotes if it makes you happy, since the definition is not the one generally understood by our society.) in the same way we would. To them, it means something entirely different. It is not the mutual respect for a peer, so much as the cautious acknowledgement of a superior. By "respect", I am referring to precisely the way they "rever" Lolth herself- not out of affection or trust, but out of fear and envy, just as you suggested. This is what respect mean to the drow. I do not misread the canon, I am defining it as they would. And Lolth actually encourages this kind of "respect", as it fosters paranoia, alertness, and envy among her followers. Also, the reason it is so ingrained in them in the first place is precisely because it is dictated by Lolth's edicts that females are superior. It is part of their religion as declared by her clerics. It is a self-fostering cycle of belief, started by her priesthood long ago, and is now so accepted that most drow would never even think to question it- hence the quote from DotD where Gorlist was so surprised by Nisstyre's idea of "humbling" Liriel!
"Seriously, what are you smoking? An individual's skill is irrelevant and of no importance? How can you have read the sourcebooks and come up with this crazy messed up interpretation? I'll agree, certainly, that every member of a house wants their house to gain power... but come on... how do you think they accomplish that goal?"
Kindly refrain from using that sort of derogatory comment, if you don't mind. I've provided citations on nearly every point I've made, and this one is stated directly in the DotU book (3,5 ed). They do not value individuals in their society nor are an individual's accomplishments considered important unless they further the aims of that drow's House. Thus, yes, they are of little or no importance. Especially to the society as a whole. Within the house itself, it would largely depend on if that member was in good standing in the house, and how well it aided the House as a whole. But other drow would not care one whit.
"Are you suggesting that once someone's a noble, even males, that they "typically" retain their status as a noble - even if a female cousin were to replace the current Matron Mother (their biological mother)?"
Since it is within the rights of any given female noble of a house to branch off and start their own House (how ELSE do you think new ones are formed to replace those that fall?!) then yes. DotU states that a daughter who is not in direct line to rule (due to having several older sisters) may in fact separate from her Matron's house (with permission, of course) and form one of her own, with nominal loyalty to the "parent" House. This is how new noble Houses are formed, and why the number of them remains fairly constant. When one family becomes sufficiently large, it may split into two or more smaller Houses, with the bulk of the members remaining in the original, but some joining the new one(s). Obviously, males are not given this right, since they are considered the property of their house anyway. (No matter how you slice it, that's what they are.) Daughters or sisters who form their own Houses still retain their noble status of birth. Also, you seem to assume that ONLY birth can confer noble status among drow. Not so- if the Matron decrees it so, any member of her house can be given that status, regardless of actual birth status, just like a king granting nobility or knighthood to a favored subject. Zaknafein was an example of this- Malice allowed him to retain the House name (remember, he was born a commoner!) even after she took a new Patron, because he was the Weapon Master. And only the nobles of a House are typically allowed to use the name of their House as their own. This is how most "nobles" originally attained that status in the first place. There is however, a small difference between an individual how was BORN a noble, and one who was granted the status by a superior, and drow would treat them slightly differently- the "upstart" would not be given the same kind of "respect" as an established noble family.
"Honestly, the only reason House Baenre can get away with these things is because they already hold the top position. They can do whatever they want, so long as they retain that power. That's why they're unique. Any house in the top position on a city's council could theoretically do the same. In that way, House Baenre is "typical" - but it's absolutely NOT the case that House Baenre is a "typical" model of ALL noble houses within a single city."
They have a certain amount of leeway, this is true, but this is how things have been run in Menzo for at least two thousand years, and no one seems to have argued about it there. In fact, it appears to have been a long-standing tradition to do as they have, and Malice commented to that effect during the destruction of House Freth (I think it was) when Drizzt and family went to watch. She did not seem surprised at Baenre's announcement, just annoyed that she would not get the chance to take them in herself. This tells me that it is in fact a very common practice.
"I mean, if you really think that every daughter of a given Matron retains their noble status upon her death, and can then in fact create their own noble house by becoming a Matron and having their own daughters (which would then also be noble, even if she then dies), then I guess I can see why you think there are a bajillion female nobles within a given house or city. Any female with a weak / extended blood tie to a current or previous matron (so long as the matron was never disgraced) would be a noble in your book. Distant cousins, nieces, adopted females from another city, do you seriously think that's the case?"
No, typically, all cousins and other members would not be- only her own direct line. Any children of her children (and most drow females do not begin to have any of their own until they have become Matrons in any case) would only become nobles once the previous Matron dies, and only the ones of whomever replaces her, although it seems in some instances that exceptions are made- such as Liriel. She was the daughter of Gromph, and was technically part of her mother's House by birth (and her mother was a minor noble, too!) but was allowed to be granted the status of a full Baenre princess by Matron Yvonnel, and later by her aunt Triel, neither of whom seemed to care that he had claimed her as a member of the House. In fact, Triel wanted her to become a full priestess, as the House was apparently in need of new ones at the time. The reason that female nobles tend to outnumber their male counterparts is largely because of the rule of the third-born living son being sacrificed. This tends to limit the number of male nobles who survive birth, and skews the ratio enormously, since every noble house does it, and probably most of the non-noble ones, to- since it is Lolth's will that this be done. And no, I do not think that there are a bazillion noble females- but the ratio seems to be at least 2/1 or 3/1, based on the facts. If they allow other males to live after the (first) third-born living male is sacrificed, then the numbers would be roughly as I stated- seven females to three males out of a total of ten nobles in a house. As an average, mind you. YMMV.
"If a given Matron dies, all her children lose their noble status (unless a daughter has previously moved out and started her own noble house, becoming a Matron herself, or she takes over her mother's house as new Matron). They can stay in their house and serve it, they can even retain a certain rank depending on the whims of the current matron, but they're no longer a member of the nobility. In the case where a daughter replaces her mother as new Matron, only her blood children are considered noble (again, unless you're in the First House and can do whatever you want)."
Sorry, but that is only the case IF she has children of her own, in which case, the other females of the House will probably be plotting to supplant her, or at least assassinate her children to regain their former status- assuming they remain part of the House, that is. Otherwise, they are likely to start their own, and either way, would keep whatever status they already had. (At least the one who takes her place would.) Alternately, if the new Matron wishes it, they can still retain their status, especially if they already hold high rank within the house.
"Adoptions from other houses, or ceremonially adding a given female (or partial house) into a current noble house, only creates the equivalent of a "clan affiliation" and does not make one noble. Adopted nobles from broken houses do not retain their noble status in their new house."
Where do you get that? Matron Baenre herself told the entire city that she was claiming those children from the fallen House as part of her family, and thus, nobles. The sister of Triel that I've mentioned (I keep forgetting her name) was of "common" birth, but still had been given the status of full noble sister due to her clerical talents when she was adopted. How does that not make them "nobles"? It is not just a clan affiliation, it is a full adoption into the family, (even Si'Nafay was supposedly given this status when Baenre foisted her off on Malice!) with all the rights and privileges thereof. We know this from what is written in the novels.
"Holding "rank" within a noble house does not also mean you are noble. All nobles are highly ranked, but all ranked positions are not noble. You can be adopted and highly ranked, or a highly ranked child of a former matron, but rank and house affiliation for a female doesn't automatically make you a noble."
I never said that it did. However, most high-ranked females ARE members of the "noble" family that rules their House, either by birth or by being elevated by the Matron of said House. They do not loose that status simply because the Matron changes- unless the new Matron already has several children of her own, whom she would then favor over her siblings, etc. Those sibling would most likely leave the House to start new ones at that point, and would thus retain whatever status they had before. Baenre being an exception, but in that case, it is to retain the rank of the First House, as well as head of the Council- a lofty position that every member of that House wishes to keep. Even Quenthel had reflected on that, and it was mentioned as the reason Banere was so big and still had so many nobles after Yvonnel's death. They simply stayed part of it rather than starting Houses of their own.
Now that I've addressed Eltheran's claims, I'll move on-
"Please, please leave out the clerics while talking at a generalized level! Of course there are no male guards in the city's most important temple (Arach Tinilith). And of course men are forbidden to join an all female school teaching Lolth-priestesses…
But regarding the army of any random house (say, #12) it's just very unlikely to assume that of, say, 200 soldiers one male is the weapon's master, followed in ranks by 100 females, followed by 99 males. It's military. If a soldier outranks another, he is likely to lead in combat just because of the "chain of command". In a combat and an ongoing war, leaders are either skilled - or dead. So we can say that rank roughly equals skill – since the Drow are constantly at war."
Mister X, I was simply illustrating that elite ranks are usually found only in the direct presence of Matrons or other high-ranked priestesses, and so, are almost guaranteed to be female. Quenthel commanded her troops personally, and was no slouch at melee combat, as shown when she fights the demons Gromph sent after her. Since most female drow take the clerical path, how can one NOT have them as part of the generalized level?! The priesthood is the quickest path to power among female drow, even for those not of noble houses, and they quite naturally vie for that power. As noted before, very few females out of the general population take a different path to power, and of those, fewer still choose to be soldiers in the army of any given house. Thus the clerics are a substantial portion of the general population.
Even if they are commoners, they will still have been given special training by either the House Weapon Master or in the Academy (Liriel had a special tutor for this as part of her clerical training) to improve their skill. This, combined with their gender, would tend to put them in command of other soldiers in the House. They might still be under the nominal command of the Weapon Master, but that could be over-ridden (and often is) by any ranking priestess of the house. There is a scene during the rebellion of the slaves in Dissolution where a priestess takes command of a squad of drow warriors after their own leader has fallen, even Ryld is seen taking orders from a priestess at one point, IIRC. And he was a Master at Melee-Magthere. So apparently, the chain of command CAN be based on gender. The priestess mentioned does not even last long, as I recall, but the fact that they obeyed her says she had that authority.
Regards to the "fun fact"- They are seen as more "worthy" because they are naturally closer to their goddess because of their gender, not because they are inherently "better". Eilistraee actually encourages males to ascend to any position they wish, as equals among her faithful. Quilue's mate Elkantar was also her second in command, to give an example, even though he was neither female nor a cleric. And she also had male clerics even in 2nd ed, long before the LP books introduced the concept in novels. But she does not favor females over males in her general lay-followers like Lolth does.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 07:34:50
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Alystra, not to offend you – but after being asked to leave out the clerics you used them as a reference seven or eight times in the directly following paragraph…
Your arguments are good, though, but you miss in one point (as always, if I might say that…): Scale.
When stating "most females" would be going to be clerics, I'm pretty fine with it – with nobles. Most Drow would have levels in NPC classes, after all (mostly Warrior or Expert, I'd rule, maybe some Adepts…). Of course the sources say that "most female prefer the path of Lolths clergy" – because it's somewhat unlikely for a PC to roll up "Danifae the Blacksmith"; she'd rather chose between "Danifae, Weapon Master of House XYZ" or "Danifae, Priestess of Lolth". Nearly all sources focus heroes, not society in general.
Second, if such a high percentage of females would be priestesses (as you are suggesting), it'd be the males and the slaves running day-to-day business (with crafts, alchemy, etc…). I strongly doubt that…
Aside, the DotU 3.5e does not focus Faerűnian Drow. There are too much "facts" in it that interfere with those put in other sources. |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 17:48:02
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The general Drow have been described as males had a natural preferred class wizard and females cleric.
We do not have a census of the population, however I would not be surprised if half the females have at least one level Cleric, even if having 10 levels Commoner... The question might be put to Ed if not already done. Though even Ed can do is make a best guess as how he sees the population.
Of course multiclass could confuse the ranking order very much. A level 10 Fighter would not worry much about what a Com 10/Clr 1 might have to say.
In some ways actual class likely does not matter as much as how much individual power each has. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 17:48:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
...And Lolth actually encourages this kind of "respect", as it fosters paranoia, alertness, and envy among her followers. Also, the reason it is so ingrained in them in the first place is precisely because it is dictated by Lolth's edicts that females are superior. It is part of their religion as declared by her clerics. It is a self-fostering cycle of belief, started by her priesthood long ago, and is now so accepted that most drow would never even think to question it- hence the quote from DotD where Gorlist was so surprised by Nisstyre's idea of "humbling" Liriel!
Putting aside the issue of changing terms mid-conversation, your assertion that it is "part of their religion" is simply your interpretation. And IMO you're wrong. As we've talked about how this element does not exist in every drow city where Lolth is worshipped, it's clearly a cultural phenomenon specific to cities where the priestesses hold total power and not specifically Lolth dogma. Defending your interpretation with "it's true in Menzo, so it's Lolth dogma!" is simply not sufficient.
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...I've provided citations on nearly every point I've made, and this one is stated directly in the DotU book (3,5 ed). They do not value individuals in their society nor are an individual's accomplishments considered important unless they further the aims of that drow's House. Thus, yes, they are of little or no importance. Especially to the society as a whole. Within the house itself, it would largely depend on if that member was in good standing in the house, and how well it aided the House as a whole. But other drow would not care one whit.
Your references have been primarily: Menzo, Menzo, Baenre, Menzo, Baenre, Baenre, Menzo, etc... which several of us have pointed out previously and repeatedly are too unique and often "special cases" that are not typical of general Drow society. Yet you persist in claiming that they're the model for whatever you are claiming.
And then when you say something bizarre like, "the skill of an individual drow of either gender is irrelevant, and to them, is literally of no importance" it makes it hard to take you seriously. Personal accumulation of power, through honed skill and clever manipulation of others, particularly in defeating one's superiors and challengers, is THE core of drow life. It's a defining characteristic of the culture, whether you're looking at the Realms or even at "core" drow as seen in DotU. If individual accomplishments were "of no value" and "literally of no importance" then how do you explain the massive levels of interpersonal envy among the drow? It's pervasive in their culture, and described regularly in every single Realms novel and sourcebook involving the drow.
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Since it is within the rights of any given female noble of a house to branch off and start their own House (how ELSE do you think new ones are formed to replace those that fall?!) then yes. DotU states that a daughter who is not in direct line to rule (due to having several older sisters) may in fact separate from her Matron's house (with permission, of course) and form one of her own, with nominal loyalty to the "parent" House. This is how new noble Houses are formed, and why the number of them remains fairly constant...
Wrong on many, many levels. Although a daughter of a noble house can certainly branch off and build her own house as a new Matron, she does not retain her nobility and her new house is not a noble house -unless- she can attack and supplant another house that is ranked. The number of noble houses in a city is limited by the ruling council. The new Matron has to build her power base, and claw her way back into the nobility by wiping out noble houses standing in her way; it's not automatic, as you're suggesting.
Additionally, it's important to remember that DotU is a core supplement and not specific to the Forgotten Realms. Many things in it can be taken at face value and applied to the Realms, but not everything.
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Where do you get that?
I look at houses other than Baenre, and cities other than Menzoberranzan.
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...Eilistraee actually encourages males to ascend to any position they wish, as equals among her faithful...
Er, well, no. Even by the time Eilistraee became the "Masked Lady" after killing Vhaeraun, it's pretty massively clear that her faithful still put limits on what males could do. Her priestesses only -grudgingly- allowed a male to participate in one of her high rituals, after being told point-blank about how non-equal they were in practice. So when Eilistraee's faith took the step of actually becoming balanced and equal, it was so close to the time of her death that it almost didn't matter. |
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 23:09:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The general Drow have been described as males had a natural preferred class wizard and females cleric.
We do not have a census of the population, however I would not be surprised if half the females have at least one level Cleric, even if having 10 levels Commoner... The question might be put to Ed if not already done. Though even Ed can do is make a best guess as how he sees the population.
Of course multiclass could confuse the ranking order very much. A level 10 Fighter would not worry much about what a Com 10/Clr 1 might have to say.
In some ways actual class likely does not matter as much as how much individual power each has.
-I disagree with this supposition.
-No doubt, the Church of Lolth would work to indoctrinate all Drow, male and female, in any given city where those priestess' rule. Indoctrination and a basic knowledge in the general dogma and religion does not equate to levels in Cleric. I would agree 100% that most Drow who are primarily those NPCs (Commoners, Experts, Aristocrats, Adepts, whatever else) have ranks in Knowledge: Religion, because of their time being indoctrinated by the Church of Lolth. Those low-born commoner females, however, though women, they're not necessarily of "good enough" stock to be priestesses.
-Using Tibet before China's invasion as an analogue, an astounding percentage of young boys enrolled were enrolled in monasteries, but not all of these young boys turned into monks. Plenty of common-born females might learn the ways of Lolth, and understand her dogma, and exercise the inherent superiority over other men that being a Lolthite bestows upon them, but this does not make them priestesses of any kind; rather, it makes them knowledgeable, on a basic level, of Lolth, and the society she fostered over the years.
RE: Eilistraee & Gender Equality
-On the surface, Eilistraee's faith seems very much as sexist and gender exclusive as her mother's, sans the violence. We've been told by a bunch of sources that Eilistraee fosters gender equality, and does not particularly divide her worshipers among those those lines, but at best, we can say that, while she might not, her church certainly does (causing me to wonder why she allows it, if she doesn't necessarily allow it?): Titles for her Clerics all use female pronouns (ladies, maids, etc.), males who wish to enter into her priesthood must undergo rituals to become females for a limited amount of time, there's a great deal of gender discrimination witnessed by readers in the Promenade in the WotSQ series and the LP trilogy... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 04 Jul 2011 23:15:32 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2011 : 01:57:25
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I concede, it is likely most females are offered training, however some either can not pay for it (should there be a charge) or have a lack of Wisdom. The game in general starts at a person achieving a class level. Current versions do not have 0 level as far as I know. This replaced with things like Com level.
I also agree that gender equality did not exist ever, just more equal then Lolth society. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 21:01:27
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| I honestly wasn't aware of Eilistraee's faith being as discriminating as her mother's faith is. Of course, I was never a big fan of hers. I always favored Vhaeraun more with a PC. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 22:11:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
I honestly wasn't aware of Eilistraee's faith being as discriminating as her mother's faith is. Of course, I was never a big fan of hers. I always favored Vhaeraun more with a PC.
Well not as much as Mother, In the Promenade males were allowed to attend council meetings and comment, however did not have a vote.
A male attending a Lolthian council would be killed slowly .
Eilistraee society is more equal, then Lolth society.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 22:55:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
I honestly wasn't aware of Eilistraee's faith being as discriminating as her mother's faith is. Of course, I was never a big fan of hers. I always favored Vhaeraun more with a PC.
Lolthian cities vary in their degree of misandry (i.e. hatred of males). Eilistraee's groups have virtually no misandry, except perhaps for brand new female recruits directly out of the underdark. But once they've been with Eilistraee for a while, the old hatreds die away.
But both Lolth's and Eilistraee's societies have some fairly pervasive sexism and discrimination (again, though, it varies depending on the city).
Personally, I like to think of it this way: because of the depth of evil and hatred generally in Lolthians, Eilistraee had a -lot- of work to do, and getting rid of hatred was the first step. Once the old hatreds had been defused, and if she had lived, Eilistraee would have worked on removing the sexism and discrimination. But she first had to build love and trust, and real sisterhood, among her people. What a god/goddess wants "right now" often can take quite a while to accomplish. Mortals are slow to change their cultural beliefs.
I quite liked the Masked Lady, although I wish she'd found a way to get there without killing Vhaeraun and without getting herself killed later.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2011 : 23:47:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I quite liked the Masked Lady, although I wish she'd found a way to get there without killing Vhaeraun and without getting herself killed later.
I understand completely, and thanks for your insights and replies, my friend. As for killing the two of them off, I haven't nor will I add anything from the 4E Realms to my campaign. I also can't figure out why anyone would want them dead, or even Kiaransalee, when so much can be done with them. I also left the Blackstaff alive, since my players and I enjoy him so much; the same goes for Halaster. All I did was switch my campaign over from 3E/3.5 to Pathfinder, which I think is a better "fit" for our gameplay. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
Edited by - Joran Nobleheart on 06 Jul 2011 23:51:28 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 00:50:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I quite liked the Masked Lady, although I wish she'd found a way to get there without killing Vhaeraun and without getting herself killed later.
I understand completely, and thanks for your insights and replies, my friend. As for killing the two of them off, I haven't nor will I add anything from the 4E Realms to my campaign. I also can't figure out why anyone would want them dead, or even Kiaransalee, when so much can be done with them. I also left the Blackstaff alive, since my players and I enjoy him so much; the same goes for Halaster. All I did was switch my campaign over from 3E/3.5 to Pathfinder, which I think is a better "fit" for our gameplay.
Thanks, Joran. I also preferred the depth and choices of having a rich background. Even if we didn't choose to have certain things in our own campaign worlds, having tons of options always seemed like a good thing. :)
One of the things I loved most about Eilistraee was that her religion really seemed to be evolving in front of us, all on page. And it seemed very organic and realistic, not to mention that she was just a cool, likeable goddess. Kiaransalee also, I loved the idea of having her as a "secret option" in large drow cities, and also for having her own small communities. Lolth too was enriched by having a wider field of enemies to choose from, IMO. I miss all the dark seldarine. *sigh*
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 08:32:21
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Eltheran-
"Putting aside the issue of changing terms mid-conversation, your assertion that it is "part of their religion" is simply your interpretation. And IMO you're wrong. As we've talked about how this element does not exist in every drow city where Lolth is worshipped, it's clearly a cultural phenomenon specific to cities where the priestesses hold total power and not specifically Lolth dogma. Defending your interpretation with "it's true in Menzo, so it's Lolth dogma!" is simply not sufficient."
First of all, I did not say that "it's true in Menzo, so it's Lolth's dogma." What I HAVE said- repeatedly- is that Menzo is a TYPICAL Lolthite city, which means that the practices there are the "norm" for her cities. And yes, it IS in her "dogma", as shown in the quotes I have provided in earlier posts. And another, from Menzoberranzan: "Lolth rules by means of those same priestesses; in Menzoberranzan,
they speak her will, and act upon it." Her church/clerics (under her mandates) decrees that females are superior; therefore, that is part of her official dogma as it appears in the sources. It may not exist in EVERY city where she holds sway, but it is the STANDARD practice, as shown in the lore we already have. It is the AVERAGE, or NORMAL practice. How many times do I have to reiterate that? It's not just an interpretation, it's a reading of the lore as it is written.
"Your references have been primarily: Menzo, Menzo, Baenre, Menzo, Baenre, Baenre, Menzo, etc... which several of us have pointed out previously and repeatedly are too unique and often "special cases" that are not typical of general Drow society. Yet you persist in claiming that they're the model for whatever you are claiming."
*sigh* And yet no one has been able to point out HOW it is not typical, when even the sources themselves say that Menzo IS a typical drow city of Lolth. Yes, they are indeed the "model", as stated before BY ED HIMSELF ("To get an idea of larger drow cities, consider a typical one: Menzoberranzan..." DotU 2nd ed, ch2, pg 18) Also note: "The honorary Ruling Council of the city consists of the matron mothers of the eight foremost Hoses. Through their decrees, intrigues, and rivalries, Lolth's twisted rule holds sway over the city." (DotU, ch 2, pg 19) Clearly, this is the very model of a Lolthite city. And since it is also the city most documented, this makes it the BEST example we have of a drow city under Lolth. I've noticed that many of the others that have been mentioned either are NOT Lolthite cities, or are cities where her influence is reduced in some way. This makes them all rather poor examples of her society, IMO.
"And then when you say something bizarre like, "the skill of an individual drow of either gender is irrelevant, and to them, is literally of no importance" it makes it hard to take you seriously. Personal accumulation of power, through honed skill and clever manipulation of others, particularly in defeating one's superiors and challengers, is THE core of drow life. It's a defining characteristic of the culture, whether you're looking at the Realms or even at "core" drow as seen in DotU. If individual accomplishments were "of no value" and "literally of no importance" then how do you explain the massive levels of interpersonal envy among the drow? It's pervasive in their culture, and described regularly in every single Realms novel and sourcebook involving the drow."
*sigh again* I did not say anything bizarre- I was in fact quoting verbatim from the 3.5 DotU book. It even says that IN THE BOOK. Personal accumulation of power matters only to the individual in question, for obvious reasons. It only matters to others if it somehow advances his House. Otherwise, no one will ever even notice, except perhaps to note him/her as a threat to be taken down later. And your interpretation of the interpersonal envy is somewhat flawed, IMO. Envy between individuals is usually restricted to siblings within the same House, or within an organization (such as a guild). Other drow outside that small circle would never even see most of that "personal power" you spoke of, as it would be kept hidden from most outside enemies unless it is being used against them directly.
Drow simply do not value personal accomplishments of individuals, because they do not value "individuals" AT ALL. They value the strength of the FAMILY or House. Not its individual members. Those members (except for the Matron herself, obviously) are merely tools to increase the power of the entire House. (Even Drizzt was nothing but a tool to his Matron, as was Zaknafein, and Rizzen, and even his sisters. She cared nothing for him or his "achievements", even when he had killed Masoj and Alton, only for what it could do for the House as a whole!)
"Wrong on many, many levels. Although a daughter of a noble house can certainly branch off and build her own house as a new Matron, she does not retain her nobility and her new house is not a noble house -unless- she can attack and supplant another house that is ranked. The number of noble houses in a city is limited by the ruling council. The new Matron has to build her power base, and claw her way back into the nobility by wiping out noble houses standing in her way; it's not automatic, as you're suggesting."
I'd like to know what you base that on. Read the section of DotU(3.5) to understand how the House system works. New Houses are constantly replacing those which have fallen, and those new noble Houses must come from somewhere. Where else would they come from if not from those that have branched from their original House? As I mentioned earlier, Quenthel toyed with the notion of starting her own noble House, but decided that she enjoyed her current position too much to fight her way back up the ranks of the noble Houses. Obviously, had she done so, the implication there is that she would have retained her rank as a noble. It's common sense. Since the House wars are fairly common, there is nearly always at least one House being attacked except for rare times when Lolth herself decrees there be no such attacks. (Such as just after Liriel's defection, or during the Silence.)
"Additionally, it's important to remember that DotU is a core supplement and not specific to the Forgotten Realms. Many things in it can be taken at face value and applied to the Realms, but not everything."
Perhaps, but most of it was written from the existing lore- which is mostly regarding the FR, since it has become the "default" setting regarding drow lore over the years. We have Salvatore and Cunningham to thank for that. Most of the info in that book is derived from various other sources dealing with the drow as they and others have written them. Something to keep in mind.
"I look at houses other than Baenre, and cities other than Menzoberranzan."
What cities? Which Houses? They all seem to follow Baenre's lead in most things. And the other cities simply do not have enough published info on them to count as comparisons. A short blurb in a source-book on Gaullidurth or Lith-Myithar does not constitute enough lore to make a generalized statement on their social dynamics! You have to use what is presented, and I've said it time after time, there just IS NOT ENOUGH info on those other cities to make an informed basis of comparison, even if Menzo was not already confirmed as a "typical" drow city. And most of these others all have differences in the religious order, so they can't be counted under the blanket of "Lolthite cities". I'm sorry, but that argument falls flat under closer scrutiny.
Here is a bit more lore, taken from the 2nd ed supplement Menzobarrenzan: "Commoners with exceptional skills are
usually adopted by the noble House they
serve, or (more rarely) by the first noble
House to notice their skill and seize them.
They receive the House name, sponsorship,
and a position- a precarious one,
based on performance and the whim of
the ruling Matron of the House. In the
case of male drow of great beauty awarded
the position of "patron" (consort to the
Matron), this is all too literally true."
This statement along with the earlier references to Triel's adopted siblings illustrates my assertion that commoners can be and often are adopted (apparently sometimes forcefully) into a noble House.
"Er, well, no. Even by the time Eilistraee became the "Masked Lady" after killing Vhaeraun, it's pretty massively clear that her faithful still put limits on what males could do. Her priestesses only -grudgingly- allowed a male to participate in one of her high rituals, after being told point-blank about how non-equal they were in practice. So when Eilistraee's faith took the step of actually becoming balanced and equal, it was so close to the time of her death that it almost didn't matter."
I find it interesting that you took only part of my earlier quote for this. You didn't include the part where I mentioned that Quilue's MATE was both present for and part of the war-council to free the slaves and aid Liriel's fight against the Dragon's Hoard band. This was WELL before the events of those books. Even then, males were very much equal among her followers. Elkantar was even her second-in-command! So this is not equality among the faithful? In what way?
You refute evidence, but do not give anything concrete to back it up. I've given specific examples for every point, and still I keep getting- "you're wrong" from those who insist I'm "misreading" the lore. The lore says exactly what it says- I don't misread it, I simply (re)state what it already tells us in clear, unambiguous terms. Anything else is
Also, Regarding House Baenre and other Houses' forces, I found this:
House Baenre:
Matron Mother: Matron Yvonnel Baenre
level 25 priestess
Nobles: 63
Priestesses: 47
High Priestesses: 16
House Males: 16
Fighters: 4
Wizards: 12
Drow Soldiers: 2,600 (known)
Formations: 325 Elite Foot (female)
675 Archers
1,200 Foot
400 Lizard riders
Slave Force:
Formations:
700 (at house proper)
200 goblin foot
150 orc spearcasters
100 gnoll archers
150 bugbears
75 ogre
boulder-hurlers
25 minotaur foot
#2 Barrison Del Armgo:
Matron Mother: Mez'Barris Armgo
level 13/13
priestess/fighter
Nobles: 48
Priestesses: 11
High Priestesses: 3
House Males: 37
Fighters: 20
Wizards: 17
Drow Soldiers: 1,000 total
Formations: 50 Elite Foot (female)
200 Elite Foot (male)
200 Archers
350 Foot
200 Lizriders
Slave Force:
Formations:
1,100 total
300 goblin foot
200 goblin archers
150 orc spearcasters
250 ogrillons
(home-bred)
150 bugbears
50 ogres
#3 Oblodra:
Matron Mother: K'yorl Odran
level 16 priestess
Nobles: 32
Priestesses: 22
High Priestesses: 6
House Males: 10
Fighters: 4
Wizards: 6
Drow Soldiers: 450 total
Formations:
300 Elite Foot
75 Archers
75 Lizriders
Slave Force: 600 total
Formations: 600 kobold
#4 Faen Tabblar:
Matron Mother: Ghenni'tiroth Tlabbar
level 16 priestess
Nobles: 40
Priestesses: 22
High Priestesses: 5
House Males: 18
Fighters: 12
Wizards: 6
Drow Soldiers: 750 total
Formations:
Slave Force:
100 Elite Foot (female)
200 Archers
300 Foot
150 Lizard riders
800 total
400 goblin foot
100 goblin archers
100 orc spearcasters
100 bugbears
100 trolls
#5 Xorlarrin:
Matron Mother: Zeerith Q'Xorlarrin
level 15 priestess
Nobles: 36
Priestesses: 14
High priestesses: 5
House Males: 22
Mages: 21
Fighters: 1
Drow Soldiers: 250 total
Formations: 60 Elite Foot (female)
100 Archers
80 Foot
20 Lizard riders
Slave Force:
Formations:
500 total
200 goblin foot
100 goblin archers
100 orc spearthrowers
100 bugbears
#6 Agrach Dyrr:
Matron Mother: Auro'pol Dyrr
Nobles: 19
Priestesses: 12
High Priestesses: 4
House Males: 7
Fighters: 2
Wizards: 5
Drow Soldiers: 400 total
Formations: 100 Elite Foot
100 Archers
150 Foot
50 Lizriders
Slave Force:
Formations:
600 total
200 goblin foot
200 goblin archers
100 orc spearcasters
100 bugbears
#7 Mizzrym:
Matron Mother:
Nobles: 19
Priestesses: 12
High Priestesses: 4
House Males: 7
Fighters: 2
Wizards: 5
Drow Soldiers: 400 total
Formations: 100 Elite Foot
100 Archers
150 Foot
50 Lizriders
Slave Force:
Formations:
600 total
200 goblin foot
200 goblin archers
100 orc spearcasters
100 bugbears
#10 Duskryn:
Matron Mother: Berni'th Duskryn
(level 12 priestess)
Nobles: 33
Priestesses: 15
High Priestesses: 13
House Males: 18
Fighters: 6
Wizards: 12
Drow Soldiers: 600 total
Slave Force: 500 total
And so on. These numbers seem to indicate that there is actually quite a difference in the number of male/female soldiers. However, note that most elite solders in each House are in fact female. This bears out my earlier posts regarding the status of female soldiers, particularly in higher-ranked houses. I think this should put to rest the question of female soldiers' status.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 17:55:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I find it interesting that you took only part of my earlier quote for this. You didn't include the part where I mentioned that Quilue's MATE was both present for and part of the war-council to free the slaves and aid Liriel's fight against the Dragon's Hoard band. This was WELL before the events of those books. Even then, males were very much equal among her followers. Elkantar was even her second-in-command! So this is not equality among the faithful? In what way?
-As I mentioned in my response earlier that kinda got buried, Eilistraee's orthodox church is seemingly just as sexist and gender exclusive as her mothers, except it is devoid of the wanton cruelty and violence that Lolth espoused, and that cruelty and violence has been replaced with love and acceptance. A few sources state that Eilistraee fosters equality among males and females, and that she doesn't see the former group as worthless, like Lolth does, but in practice, it's very much there. Titles for her Clerics all use the female pronoun (Dark Ladies, Maids, and so on), which goes against the convention of keeping titles pronoun neutral when men and women are involved (Fire Fighters, Police Officers, Mail Carriers, etc.). Males who wish to involve themselves in her clergy must transform into women for a limited amount of time, but females who wish to involve themselves in her clergy are not mandated to transform into men for a limited time. In the Promenade, as witnessed in the Lady Penitent trilogy, there's all kinds of gender discrimination against Jub, the Half-Orc follower we "meet" there, and the former Vhaeraunites who had their church linked with that of Eilistraee's when the two merged to become the Masked Lady. One could make the case that Eilistraee doesn't feel that way, or like it, and that it's only her church that is like that, but then why does she not communicate with her followers to change such practices? And, using the same logic, it could be said that Lolth is actually nice, and accepting of males, but it's her church that is doing it, not her. That, we know, is patently false. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 22:19:12
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I lack of time (and will supply this with proper arguments later) but like to adress this (neutral and not intended to offend anyone):
quote:
The lore says exactly what it says- I don't misread it, I simply (re)state what it already tells us in clear, unambiguous terms.
I think that's the point. We give interpretations, while you just quote. |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 22:50:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
First of all, I did not say that "it's true in Menzo, so it's Lolth's dogma." What I HAVE said- repeatedly- is that Menzo is a TYPICAL Lolthite city, which means that the practices there are the "norm" for her cities. And yes, it IS in her "dogma", as shown in the quotes I have provided in earlier posts. And another, from Menzoberranzan: "Lolth rules by means of those same priestesses; in Menzoberranzan,
they speak her will, and act upon it." Her church/clerics (under her mandates) decrees that females are superior; therefore, that is part of her official dogma as it appears in the sources. It may not exist in EVERY city where she holds sway, but it is the STANDARD practice, as shown in the lore we already have. It is the AVERAGE, or NORMAL practice. How many times do I have to reiterate that? It's not just an interpretation, it's a reading of the lore as it is written.
In the above paragraph, you say I'm wrong for interpreting what you said as "it's true in Menzo, so it's Lolth's dogma." But then later in the same paragraph you make the case -emphatically- that because it's seen in Menzo (a "typical" and "standard" city) then it's Lolth's official dogma in the lore. I mean seriously, FFS.
No matter how many times you reiterate it, you're still misreading it. Sorry, but you are. The clerics in Menzo have declared that females are superior. And in some ways, physically for instance, this is generally the case. But in none of the official listings for Lolth does it specifically state that Lolth's religious dogma includes superiority of the female over the male. Culturally for Menzo and similar cities where the priestesses hold total power, yes, but in Lolth's overall religious dogma, no.
So you're making a conclusion for Lolth's dogma (which is worldwide), based on what happens in Menzo's priesthood. Then you ignore the fact that many other Lolthian cities don't enforce this phenomenon. So yes, you're reading it wrong.
quote:
*sigh* And yet no one has been able to point out HOW it is not typical, (...) ...Clearly, this is the very model of a Lolthite city.
You're conflating "typical" with "model example" and that's a mistake. See below, I've gone into this a great deal more.
quote:
...Drow simply do not value personal accomplishments of individuals...
Zaknafein was kept around -solely- because of his skill in combat.
Gromph pulled Liriel into House Baenre, specifically for her skills.
It's more prestigious (and better generally) to have high priestesses in your house.
In all houses, mages of low level are less valued than mages of high level.
Elite troops are chosen based on their skills, and elevated above regular footsoldiers.
Frankly, I'm not sure why you are arguing against this. Houses only gain power through each individual's accumulation of personal power. The more high level people you have in your house, the better it is for your house.
quote:
...A short blurb in a source-book on Gaullidurth or Lith-Myithar does not constitute enough lore to make a generalized statement on their social dynamics! You have to use what is presented, and I've said it time after time, there just IS NOT ENOUGH info on those other cities to make an informed basis of comparison, even if Menzo was not already confirmed as a "typical" drow city. And most of these others all have differences in the religious order, so they can't be counted under the blanket of "Lolthite cities". I'm sorry, but that argument falls flat under closer scrutiny.
I seem to recall that Mister X posted a nice list of cities, with short descriptions that noted exactly how they were unique and different. Whether a description is long or a short "blurb" it is still canon information, and many of them do differ in their religious practices. If we are to believe that Menzo is a "typical city" in terms of Lolth's dogma, then where are the other cities that match it? Perhaps when they said "typical city" they meant that it was typical in terms of general flavor, and not necessarily a structural model for religion, or layout, or noble house structure.
The fact is, when so many Lolthian cities have been shown to be different in their religious makeup, or their power structure, it would be a far better conclusion to say that drow cities are all fairly unique, because Lolth likes chaos and not hard-and-fast rules.
Here's the thing: when a sourcebook says a city is "typical" of other cities, whether you're talking about Menzo as a typical drow city or Suzail as a "typical Cormyrean city", it's almost never talking about the unique structures, religions, groups, etc. at the very top. It's referring to the majority of the city, the non-noble parts where commerce and building styles and whatever else that's common to a given culture helps to define it.
Menzo is "typical" because the drow all engage in competing for power, they crave the positions of their superiors, they have to watch their backs constantly for subtle attacks. Taking the word "typical" too far, you conclude things like House Baenre is a typical house... when it's absolutely not, in almost every way.
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This statement along with the earlier references to Triel's adopted siblings illustrates my assertion that commoners can be and often are adopted (apparently sometimes forcefully) into a noble House.
Being adopted into a noble house doesn't mean they become nobles. It doesn't say that. You're simply drawing a conclusion.
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I find it interesting that you took only part of my earlier quote for this. You didn't include the part where I mentioned that Quilue's MATE was both present for and part of the war-council to free the slaves and aid Liriel's fight against the Dragon's Hoard band. This was WELL before the events of those books. Even then, males were very much equal among her followers. Elkantar was even her second-in-command! So this is not equality among the faithful? In what way?
Because her mate's rank is irrelevant given the TONS of other examples we've seen in novels that point out the lack of gender equity amongst her faithful. Lord Karsus made those points quite well, so it's not necessary for me to repeat them.
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You refute evidence, but do not give anything concrete to back it up.
Uh huh... more selective reading on your part. Anything that disagrees with your conclusions (which are not facts, btw), you ignore or dismiss.
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I've given specific examples for every point, and still I keep getting- "you're wrong" from those who insist I'm "misreading" the lore. The lore says exactly what it says- I don't misread it, I simply (re)state what it already tells us in clear, unambiguous terms.
When you get the same message from several people, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your process.
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And so on. These numbers seem to indicate that there is actually quite a difference in the number of male/female soldiers. However, note that most elite solders in each House are in fact female. This bears out my earlier posts regarding the status of female soldiers, particularly in higher-ranked houses. I think this should put to rest the question of female soldiers' status.
You're misreading the tables, and arriving at the wrong conclusion. Let's take House Duskryn. Of 33 nobles, 15 are priestesses (13 of those are high priestesses). There are 18 House Males (6 fighters and 12 wizards). 15 + 18 = 33 Nobles. None in that house are noble female fighters, because there are only 33 Nobles. As to "Drow Soldiers" at 600, there's no way to know how many are male or female.
Let's take House DelArmgo. Total Nobles: 48, of which 11 are priestesses (and of those, 3 high priestesses). House Males = 37 (of which 20 are fighters and 17 are wizards). 37+11 = 48 total nobles, none of which are noble female fighters. This one, however, notes that there are 1000 drow soldiers (which are all commoners, whether they're elite or regular). There are 200 male elite footsoldiers, and 50 elite female footsoldiers. Of the rest, which are all regular non-elites, you cannot be certain how many are female vs. how many are male.
Even with House Baenre, it only clearly states that there are 325 elite female footsoldiers. All the rest, there's no way to know how many are male vs. female.
Far from "putting the question to rest" you're actually providing NO support for your claim. |
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 23:03:09
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originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
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originally posted by Eltheron
And then when you say something bizarre like, "the skill of an individual drow of either gender is irrelevant, and to them, is literally of no importance" it makes it hard to take you seriously. (…)
*sigh again* I did not say anything bizarre- I was in fact quoting verbatim from the 3.5 DotU book. It even says that IN THE BOOK. Personal accumulation of power matters only to the individual in question, for obvious reasons. It only matters to others if it somehow advances his House. Otherwise, no one will ever even notice, except perhaps to note him/her as a threat to be taken down later. And your interpretation of the interpersonal envy is somewhat flawed, IMO. Envy between individuals is usually restricted to siblings within the same House, or within an organization (such as a guild). Other drow outside that small circle would never even see most of that "personal power" you spoke of, as it would be kept hidden from most outside enemies unless it is being used against them directly.
same post:
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originally posted by Alystra Illiannis, quoting from 2ed Menzo-box
Commoners with exceptional skills are usually adopted by the noble House they serve, or (more rarely) by the first noble House to notice their skill and seize them.
… seriously. What? |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2011 : 23:58:45
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Another little tidbit from the FR 2E source Menzoberranzan. After reading this, consider that it's about the 2nd House of Menzo, Del'Armgo. If Lolth's religious dogma actually included supremacy of females (i.e. if it wasn't just a cultural expression deriving from the practices of the priestesses currently in power), then why would House Del'Armgo be shown such direct favor by Lolth?
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Mez'Barris, long considered a renegade for her catering to the predominant house males, decided then to stop fighting against her nature, to stop resisting the unique graces Lloth had bestowed upon her house.
Mez'Barris realized that she, and her off spring, would forever bear male children, and understood that Lloth wanted it this way. Of all the drow cities, Menzoberranzan, with their slavish dedication to matriarchal rule, was probably the weakest in terms of wizardly magic. And the lopsided favors extended to females certainly diminished the other half of the city's drow population.
Mez'Barris found a new patron, an exceptionally large and strong male, and began with him a line of physically and emotionally superior males.
And so Barrison Del'Armgo, using their unique (to Menzoberranzan) gifts, continued to thrive, continued their inevitable ascension. Their open acceptance of males beamed out as a beacon of welcome for unhoused rogues rumors say that even Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe, has found the secret favor of Mez'Barris. Jarlaxle, of course, pragmatic and wise, and considered by Matron Baenre to be her exclusive property, denies these claims bitterly.
There was also once a rumor that Gromph Baenre, Archmage of the city, spent some private moments with Mez'Barris Armgo on more than one occasion. This cannot be confirmed, though, since everyone who spoke the rumor, and nearly all of those who heard it, have since been sold as ebony statues to a distant duergar community. Another major benefit of Barrison Del'Armgo's attitude towards males is that the house males are undyingly loyal to their Matron Mother (where else in all the city could they go and receive as much respect?).
Bolding mine, for emphasis. In terms of Lolth's favor, consider that this house jumped from rank 47 to rank 16 after a flawless attack on the 27th house (at the time), then carefully resisted all challenges to their ascension as they made their way to rank 2. All due to skilled male mages, born into her house under the auspices of Lolth.
Curious, no? I'd say this is a pretty blatant argument that "female supremacy" has more to do with the culture of the priestesses in power, and isn't Lolth's religious dogma per se, which is what I've been arguing all along. 
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 08 Jul 2011 00:15:07 |
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The Place of Drow Males
Topic Locked
