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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 00:16:51
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| We're starting to go around in circles, folks. I really should prefer not to close this thread, but I also don't want to see the same arguments over and over again. Not singling anyone out; just speaking on the trend I'm seeing. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Jul 2011 00:17:19 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2011 : 07:32:02
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Hrm, I think I'm beginning to see the problem here. As Mister X said, there have been several interpretations presented, while I have simply put forth what the books say on the subject- and therein lies the misunderstanding. Please realize that my views are precisely and only based on what is IN the books. I make no attempt to "interpret" the facts into anything but what is there, except in cases where it is merely inferred rather than explicitly stated.
Usually, when I get the same message from several people and nothing to back it up, I tend to wonder why they choose to ignore or reinterpret the facts presented as either wrong or irrelevant. Still have not figured out the answer to that one, except that perhaps there is some personal bias going on. If someone chooses to see only what they wish, and not accept an opposing view based on canon sources, that is their perogative. But it comes across as somewhat narrow-minded and highly biased, IMO, rather than an informed and reasonable view. I'm all about the facts, myself. If it can't be verified by the sources, how can one say it is accurate? I prefer official answers to vague interpretations that have little support in the sourcebooks.
A model city is exactly that- one that is within the average and normal range of a city of Lolth- which, in fact, Menzoberranzan is. As to those other cities- most of them are NOT good models, because the social dynamic is not SOLELY based on worship of Lolth and ONLY Lolth, but rather Lolth/Ghaunadaur, or Lolth/Vearhaun, or Lolth/wizards, Lolth/Kiaransalle, and so on. Those cities exist as examples of a NON-STANDARD drow city, where the dynamics are significantly changed in some major way. That changes how the drow there would view males, and the power structure, ideals, etc. For Lolthites in general, however, males are viewed as second class (at best) and in most cases are little better than slaves. This is the whole point of why they were rebelling along with the slaves in the WotSQ books. Ched Nasad is another drow city where the basic tenets of Lolth are adhered to more stringently than in, say- Sshamath or Ghaullidurth. But to use those cities as a gauge of her strict faith is a poor interpretation. One cannot take apples(Menzo, Ched Nasad) and compare them to oranges(Sshamath, others)- it does not work. I'll also add that the Menzoberranzan suppliment mentions in its history section that Lolth herself led Menzoberra the Kinless to the site of her future city after the former settlement she and her followers left (sorry, forgot the name) had collapsed due to the tremendous amount of in-fighting. Lolth had led her to found a city based upon her true will and worship, that would server her as she intended. That seems like a pretty clear indication of how she wanted her followers to act to me. But hey, what do I know? I must be misreading what she wanted from her followers. And Baenre itself is really pretty typical in all but power. It is the oldest surviving House, one which was there FROM THE BEGINNING, and follows all the same practices as virtually every other House in the city. Having a shrewder and more intelligent leader for much of its history is what makes it so unique. But in practices and basic structure, it is the same as all the other noble Houses. It also seems to be well in Lolth's favor, so they must be doing something right. If she approves of how they operate for that long, when so many other Houses have risen and fallen, perhaps they have the right idea! Or am I just misreading that, too? I kinda doubt it....
Ah, So I'm not the only one who read that after all. Seriously, I was beginning to think no one even had anything to bring to the discussion except suppositions. That tidbit intrigued me as well, until I realized that hers is virtually the only House that feels that way. the bit about them being considered renegades says it all, I think. She is obviously one of the FEW forward-thinking and reasonable drow Matrons in the city, or anywhere else.
You say that individuals are considered valued for their skills, but that's just it- they are valued ONLY for whatever skills they can bring to their House, and nothing more. Not for their accomplishments per se, or even for themselves. Their lives are worthless, even to their own family members. Essentially, it's the skills that are valued, not the people possessing them! (Which is a very big distinction, by the way- a slave possessing the same skill is still just a slave, and just as expendable. So is any drow with a particular skill. He/she can always be replaced by someone else with the same skill...)
On Eilistraee and gender inequality. I will only say that that example is mentioned WELL before any of the supposed gender bias was ever mentioned in the books, and that Elkantar was the mate and second of Quilue HERSELF. If that does not signify a more gender-equal faith, I don't know what does. And those TONS of other examples all came from the LP books- which anyone who is a real fan/lore-follower of Eilistraeean drow will tell you should be taken with a heaping handful of salt, given all the inconsistencies with prior lore. (There is an even entire site dedicated to her- www.eilistraee.com There are entire threads on that site about those lore-gaffes.) Also, using the former Vaerhaunites is not a good example in any case, because they were HIS followers before converting to her. Her priestesses did not like them for that very reason. I remember those scenes quite well, and it was quite plain that they did not trust them or view them as equals not merely because they were males, but because they had been followers of one of their former foes! (Wow, how does one ignore THAT little detail?)
Troop numbers: If you would look at those numbers again, most of them have the elite units listed as female. Since we were discussing whether female fighters would be higher rank or not, that seems to spell it out pretty clearly. The rest of the troops are either male or mixed, from the numbers given. Since it does not specifically say, we can probably assume both, depending on the troop type. Incidentally, the numbers above also bear out the disproportionate number of female nobles to male nobles in most houses. With an average ratio of about 2/1 or 3/1, it seems there are far more noble females than males. So the bulk of the female population of a given House appears to be among the nobles and elite troops, where males fall just about anywhere on the scale. How am I misreading this again? Never mind, I suppose there's no basis for that one, either, though it's right there in the numbers....
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2011 : 08:38:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
On Eilistraee and gender inequality. I will only say that that example is mentioned WELL before any of the supposed gender bias was ever mentioned in the books, and that Elkantar was the mate and second of Quilue HERSELF. If that does not signify a more gender-equal faith, I don't know what does. And those TONS of other examples all came from the LP books- which anyone who is a real fan/lore-follower of Eilistraeean drow will tell you should be taken with a heaping handful of salt, given all the inconsistencies with prior lore. (There is an even entire site dedicated to her- www.eilistraee.com There are entire threads on that site about those lore-gaffes.) Also, using the former Vaerhaunites is not a good example in any case, because they were HIS followers before converting to her. Her priestesses did not like them for that very reason. I remember those scenes quite well, and it was quite plain that they did not trust them or view them as equals not merely because they were males, but because they had been followers of one of their former foes! (Wow, how does one ignore THAT little detail?)
-Elkantar was Qilue's mate, and was in a position of power during her raid on Skullport as described in Daughter of the Drow is fine- Rai'Guy was a priest of Lolth, after all- but that doesn't change the fact that the orthodox Eilistraeean faith is highly gender exclusive and almost as sexist as Lolth's faith, without the violence. Take with a grain of salt all you want the canon War of the Spider Queen and Lady Penitent books, but it's canon (didn't you just say using only what is presented in the books, and not putting any kind of subjective spin on things is the best way to go?) and shows us various examples of females having sociological superiority over males, simply because of their gender. What is the purpose of the Changing Dance? To transform males into females, for them to experience being female and being closer to their deity (a concept Sune, Shar, Selūne, and basically every other female deity I can think of does not prescribe to). Why does Eilistraee, to promulgate a society that is more gender equal, not mandate females to undergo such a ritual, to experience being male? In what way does it engender (pun intended) an balance of equality among sexes, mandating it for males, but not females? How do the statuses of Jub, Ryld, and others, as (for a lack of better words) second-class citizens within the Promenade help perpetuate a gender equal society? How does having only female priestesses help perpetuate a gender-equal society (Demihuman Deities), when she has followers of both sexes? Or, if at some point, she began allowing male priests, how does continuing to grant titles to clergy members using exclusively female pronouns, as opposed to male and female pronouns, or gender neutral ones, help perpetuate a gender equal society? Or, the suspicion and disdain that various Eilistraeean priestesses had for their Vhaeraunian counterparts after the two faiths merged, in which Lisa Smedman displayed no such analogue on the part of the few Vhaeraunite Masked Lady worshipers working with Eilistraeean Masked Lady worshipers. And the list goes on, and on, and on. All of these examples of her and/or her faith not being as gender inclusive as sources pass her off to be... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 07:56:53
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quote:
originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Troop numbers: If you would look at those numbers again, most of them have the elite units listed as female. Since we were discussing whether female fighters would be higher rank or not, that seems to spell it out pretty clearly. The rest of the troops are either male or mixed, from the numbers given. Since it does not specifically say, we can probably assume both, depending on the troop type. Incidentally, the numbers above also bear out the disproportionate number of female nobles to male nobles in most houses. With an average ratio of about 2/1 or 3/1, it seems there are far more noble females than males. So the bulk of the female population of a given House appears to be among the nobles and elite troops, where males fall just about anywhere on the scale. How am I misreading this again? Never mind, I suppose there's no basis for that one, either, though it's right there in the numbers....
You write "most" but sound like "every". Which is what I and I think Eltheron too, are arguing. Just to state "You're right with several examples, but not ALL drow are that way
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It's just logic: If most elite fighters are drow, than there must be some elite fighters who are not female (thus: male). Otherwise, most would be a word fatally wrong chosen.
Again: Nobody said you were wrong with your conclusions completely. It's just the fact you're saying "it's right with Menzo, it's right with Baenre, so it must be correct with every single drow in the Underdark". Which is, sorry, wrong. |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
Edited by - MisterX on 11 Jul 2011 07:58:34 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 20:03:55
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Actually, Quilue herself admonished the clerics of her faith who were belittling the male clerics (the converts). In fact, they all felt bad about it after she pointed out that there was no difference to the goddess between her male and female faithful. Those were PERSONAL prejudices, not those of the faith itself. And neither she nor Eilistraee herself has ever advocated anything like sexism among the faithful of the Dark Maiden. Just because her clergy is mostly female, (I really don't imagine many males wishing to become priests to her in the first place: #1, they are not inclined toward becoming clerics to begin with, and #2, they would not connect to a female deity as strongly, since they are, well, males.) does not mean that it has anything to do with sgeregation of the sexes. The males simply take the same roles in her faith as they do in the churches of Lolth or Kiaransalle, because it is what they are used to/suited for. There is no restriction against them having more rank or "power" in her faith at all. SOME of her clergy might have sexist views against males, but note that those who do are usually converts from Lolth! (The ones born into her faith are much more open-minded, as a rule.)
Also, why are most of the titles feminine? Let's think about that for a moment. Dark Dancer is gneder-neutral, so really does not seem to indicate anything male or female. Dark Ladies is admittedly female-oriented, but given the majority of her clerics have always been female, it's not sexist, it's just practical. You would not call them Dark Lords (which BTW sounds too menacing). Most of the other titles are really just variations on that theme. Silverhair Knights does not imply gender at all, so it does not count. Neither do the sineaters of Eilistraee. both are decidedly gender-neutral titles or positions. Dancing Ladies would just sound silly as Dancing Lords, (all apologies to Michael Flatley...) so it was likely more a choice of the game designers responsible for coming up with names for her cvlergy, who are, of course, mostly female. I'm sure she has perfectly respectable and equal titles for her male clerics, we just don't see any of them. Maybe you could ask Ed if he has ever used any. Or I might do so, since her faith has always been an interest of mine. Look back through his replies to my query about how Eilistreean weddings are performed. He's got some great material!
Also, he has discussed the Changedance, as well, and IIRC, it was primarily intended to bring males closer to her and to help them understand her faith better, as LK pointed out. It had nothing to do with being sexist- you said it yourself, LK, it was a spiritual awakening, as it were. She doesn't require females to undergo such a transformation because as women, they are already closer to her, and it helps those males to have more empathy, which is something most women are naturally better at. You're putting a sexist spin on something that is basically a form of initiation. (No one ever complained that a warrior's spirit journey was sexist!) Incidentally, Ryld never fully converted, Jub was looked down on more for being an orc than anything, but still had plenty of respect among his peers and with Quilue herself. Why Sahress , Sune, and other female goddesses do not prescribe to this idea, is likely because they are more tied to sensual pursuits where both sides are equally represented, in most cases. Singing and dancing has never been considered an especially male interest, particularly among drow. Especially when one considers that most singing or dancing in drow socitety is religious in nature, and males are hardly even allowed to participate in religious rites among Lolthites. (except as sacrifices!)
As for elite fighters, I think you may be confusing them with the rank-and-file warriors of most Houses, Mister X. The eiltes would be a Matron's personal guards, special units, infiltrators, and other specially-trained troops, as opposed to the regular troops of a House. Slave troops asice, most drow fighters are not among the "elite" units- they are the common, ordinary warriors of the House. Yes, there are probably some elite troops who are male, (note the Hosues where those units are specified as either/or) but they seem to be in the minority, at least among the Houses shown above. If those numbers are the norm, (which they appear to be) then one can assume that most other Houses are of similar make-up. We can't say for certain, of course, but it's a good bet that most follow the same general pattern. Notice, I did not ever say there WERE no male "elite" troops, only that MOST of them are female, according to the numbers above.
Nowhere have I said ALL/EVERY in any of my posts, and I really don't know where anyone is getting that from. Seriously, I am simply using those examples as an AVERAGE/STANDARD of comparison for the majority of Lolth's cities, because the books themselves say that this is typical of what most of her followers believe, and how they view themselves and the world around them. Sure, there are going to be splinter sects (that one that believes Lolth and Shar are the same comes to mind), random "renegade" Houses (like Barrison del'Armgo) that think differently, but they are not the "norm". I am in complete agreement with you both on that score. What I DO disagree with is how you seem to think that the lore applies ONLY to those locations I've mentioned. We already know they are "typical", so why wouldn't it apply elsewhere as well? This is the point I've been getting at all along. Not that every single drow acts/thinks that way, but that it is the TYPICAL view of the drow in general. Please don't put words in my "mouth". Read what is posted, and not what you think it means. It means exactly what it says and nothing else. One thing I try very hard to do is make my statements plain, and say exactly what I mean. I believe I've done that very well here. Why that should be such a point of contention is really beyond me. The opening post asked a question, and since it is something I have researched extensively(because I ran into that exact same situation for a story I've been working on for quite some time, dealing with this very issue) I decided to put what I've found on the table. No spin, no all-emcompassing one-size-fits-all ideas, but, as Detective Friday from Dragnet would say- "just the facts, ma'am". And that's what I've presented here- the facts as presented in various canon sources. (My own personal feelings about the LP books aside, which really are not very consistent with the rest. WotSQ was good, if slightly disjointed in places, but there were some glaring errors in Smedmen's trilogy regarding Eil's followers.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 22:07:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Hrm, I think I'm beginning to see the problem here. As Mister X said, there have been several interpretations presented, while I have simply put forth what the books say on the subject- and therein lies the misunderstanding. Please realize that my views are precisely and only based on what is IN the books. I make no attempt to "interpret" the facts into anything but what is there, except in cases where it is merely inferred rather than explicitly stated.
You know, it's not often that people surprise me, but you amaze me with your ability to see things only your way. Every single thing you have said has been your interpretation, and you casually dismiss any lore or facts that do not support your beliefs.
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Usually, when I get the same message from several people and nothing to back it up, I tend to wonder why they choose to ignore or reinterpret the facts presented as either wrong or irrelevant. Still have not figured out the answer to that one, except that perhaps there is some personal bias going on. If someone chooses to see only what they wish, and not accept an opposing view based on canon sources, that is their perogative. But it comes across as somewhat narrow-minded and highly biased, IMO, rather than an informed and reasonable view. I'm all about the facts, myself. If it can't be verified by the sources, how can one say it is accurate? I prefer official answers to vague interpretations that have little support in the sourcebooks.
YOU are seeing what you wish to see. People have given you plenty of examples from lore, as well as logical counterarguments to your claims, but you dismiss them completely. This, somehow, you interpret as "no one has backed up their statements." And to then blame it on personal bias? FFS, such drama! You are a master of re-framing and projection.
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A model city is exactly that- one that is within the average and normal range of a city of Lolth- which, in fact, Menzoberranzan is. As to those other cities- most of them are NOT good models, because the social dynamic is not SOLELY based on worship of Lolth and ONLY Lolth, but rather Lolth/Ghaunadaur, or Lolth/Vearhaun, or Lolth/wizards, Lolth/Kiaransalle, and so on.
NO ONE has ever once made the argument that any other cities are the "model" for drow society. Sheesh! YOU have made the mistake of conflating "Menzo is typical" with "Menzo is the model" and you're just simply wrong. I don't want to be repetitive, so scroll up to one of my earlier posts that explains the difference between "typical" and "model".
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Those cities exist as examples of a NON-STANDARD drow city, where the dynamics are significantly changed in some major way. That changes how the drow there would view males, and the power structure, ideals, etc.
The thing is, though, you cannot simply ignore those cities when considering drow society as a whole. They are there, they are numerous, and it is a gigantic mistake to throw them out when talking about all of drow society. And with respect to Menzo, did you ever answer which other cities (except for Ched Nasad, which is a colony of Menzo anyway) are actually "modeled" after Menzo? You didn't, because you can't. Based on all of the lore and evidence to date, every single drow city is unique.
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Ah, So I'm not the only one who read that after all. Seriously, I was beginning to think no one even had anything to bring to the discussion except suppositions. That tidbit intrigued me as well, until I realized that hers is virtually the only House that feels that way. the bit about them being considered renegades says it all, I think. She is obviously one of the FEW forward-thinking and reasonable drow Matrons in the city, or anywhere else.
Perfect example... as it doesn't fit your personal interpretation, you dismiss it entirely.
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...And those TONS of other examples all came from the LP books- which anyone who is a real fan/lore-follower of Eilistraeean drow will tell you should be taken with a heaping handful of salt, given all the inconsistencies with prior lore...
Ah, so here it comes out at last: only lore that passes your "real fan" test qualifies as canon. It doesn't matter that it actually is canon, you "true fans" decide.
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Actually, Quilue herself admonished the clerics of her faith who were belittling the male clerics (the converts). In fact, they all felt bad about it after she pointed out that there was no difference to the goddess between her male and female faithful. Those were PERSONAL prejudices, not those of the faith itself.
Do you not see the massive irony in making this claim about Eilistraee's faithful, yet insisting that Lolth's religious dogma includes the suppression of males (rather than it being a derived cultural phenomenon)?
And how you can be blind to the sexism in Eilistraee's faith, frankly that's just astounding.
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Troop numbers: If you would...
Just stop. You cannot even accurately read the table you've quoted, much less interpret it correctly.
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...I decided to put what I've found on the table. No spin, no all-emcompassing one-size-fits-all ideas, but, as Detective Friday from Dragnet would say- "just the facts, ma'am". And that's what I've presented here- the facts as presented in various canon sources.
And I'm calling BS. Your "facts" are fraught with your personal interpretations, time and time again. You ignore any facts that do not fit your claims.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
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The Place of Drow Males
Topic Locked
