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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 08:07:31
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I'd say they would be killed on the spot, same as in Neverwinter and Baldur's Gate. However, if they were disguised, then they'd probably be able to get away with walking through those cities but otherwise, I really don't see them being allowed to walk openly.
Even when Qilue visited Waterdeep, she took on the appearance of Laeral.
Even when Drizzt visited Silverymoon, which is one of the most welcoming places ever, he went disguised. And even Ed said in one of his replies, that Drow would not be allowed to walk openly within Silverymoon.
Course, this might have changed in the Realms of 4e, which I don't know much about.
Well, Ed did say this back in 2004, so maybe they might not be killed on sight.
"Waterdeep is a human-dominated cosmopolitan trading city where coins rule and half the creatures of Faerűn rub shoulders; its tolerance is legendary and a foundation-stone of its mercantile success - - yet even in the City of Splendors, most folk react with either unease or open dislike to drow."
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Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
I'm finding all of this incredibly interesting! I'd like to ask another question, if I may? How would a drow be treated in Waterdeep itself? I know about Skullport, but would a drow be welcomed there? Where would a drow be likely to find rooms at? I know a place they'd likely drink at, according to VGtW, which is The Crawling Spider. Also, I'm pretty sure they'd be less than welcome at The Elfstone Tavern.  But could a drow find lodging at say, The Inn of the Dripping Dagger, or any of the other fine inns of the city? Would any of the guards, watch or watch-wizards follow him or her around? Would the drow also be able to purchase supplies or gear anywhere, turned away, or be subject to suddenly increased prices? I've been told that Waterdeep is more open than most cities when it comes to situations like that, but I also know I haven't read as much as a few of you here have. Your help on this would be greatly appreciated.
And while I'm on it, would drow be allowed in Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter, or would they be turned away at the gates?
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 21 Jun 2011 08:17:46 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 15:17:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And therein lies the problem. Gromph is a gray area- he has a great deal of personal power, a high position, and is a member of the First House. HOWEVER!If he were to kill a priestess or noble female in front of Triel, would she punish him? You BETCHA. She would HAVE to- or else risk loosing Lolth's favor for NOT doing so. She could not afford to let such an offense pass.
No offense, but you have things all twisted up, and are putting too much of your personal spin on things. You have much of it right, but not for the right reasons. If Gromph were to kill a high priestess openly, with witnesses (which he would never do, it's just plain dumb), Triel would punish him yes. But NOT because he's male. She'd do it because it was an open murder with witnesses.
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Think of it this way- House Baenre can afford to loose its Archmage, but it can NOT afford to loose Lolth's favor. Which is precisely what would happen if Triel or an other high priestess of the house did not harshly deal with ANY male of the house that acted openly against a female- UNLESS it was on the authority of another female!
You're qualifying it with "because he's male" when gender in this instance is completely NOT the issue. Your example is open murder with witnesses, and drow society would punish a male or a female for such a murder.
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See, the thing that no one has mentioned is that this is not just "drow law" that we are dealing with- it is LOLTH'S law. And her dogma includes superiority and supremacy of females over males.
No one's mentioned it because it's NOT a law. Lolth believes in female superiority, but she also fosters it by not allowing males into her priesthood and insisting on female heads-of-houses. Again, you're taking the male-female gender issue way further than it really goes.
If this is indeed a "law" of Lolth, and not just a cultural issue, then please:
- state exactly what this law is, in concrete terms
- explain why Lolth allows males to rule in certain cities
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Males of high station like Gromph might be able to get away with more against commoner females or very low-ranked nobles, but only IF they act in secret.
You seem to think that females would be able to get away with open murder, just on account of being female. This is NOT the case. Again, open murder is punishable in drow society whether one is male or female. As I said earlier, a female -might- be able to get away with open murder only if she was a high priestess and retained all her Lolth-given abilities, in which case her act would be considered the will of Lolth. But here it's the perception of "Lolth will" that's getting her off the hook, not the fact that she's female.
And in drow society, if females were considered so inviolate, why would Lolth ever let a "lowly male" get away with any murder of a female? Why are some males praised for killing an offending female, if they have been "known" to do it, but there isn't any definitive evidence?
So whatever you think this "law" might be, it doesn't exist.
Lolth enjoys seeing males kept in low/minimal power and status. It amuses her, and she fosters it with two powerful tools: the female-only priesthood, and ruling matrons. But raw power is, and has always been, more important to Lolth than her disdain for males.
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Otherwise, they are out of luck. Even Gromph would not be immune to the ire of his sisters if he were o openly attack even a low-ranked noble female. Gneder discrimination aside, Lolth requires them to punish males who commit offenses against her, her clergy, or noble females in general, because otherwise other males might begin to loose their fear of her and her clergy and rebel. This is why Zanafein was sacrificed by Malice, in SPITE of the fact that he was House Do'Urden's most valuable asset! Malice saw him as expendable, and Drizzt as well, simply because they were males who had committed offenses against Lolth. And to attack a female noble or priestess, regardless of rank, is one of the worst sins among Lolth-worshiping drow.
You're not really getting it: power, not gender, is the key issue in everything you mention here. It's not because they were male. That had next to nothing to do with it. It's because Zak and Drizzt were bucking the system, threatening her power.
No one is arguing that openly attacking a noble female or HP female isn't punishable. Open attacks by either gender are punishable offenses.
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Commoner females might not have as much luxury of treating males like dirt, but this does not necessarily mean that they are powerless against higher-ranking males. In Menzoberranzan at least, it is FORBIDDEN for any male to harm a female. (This is directly stated in Daughter of the Drow) There is even a scene where Liriel shows absolute shock and horror at the suggestion of being raped by one of the Vaerhaunites on the surface, simply because no male in Menzoberranzan would dare do such a thing. That in itself is telling. She repeatedly shows dismay at Fyodor's impertinance toward her, which she sees as an affront to her as a Baenre noble, and her treatment at the hands of the Vaerhaunites is shown to be considered blasphemous. So it would hardly matter what an individual male's rank is- if he openly struck out against a female, he would be made an example of- in accordance to Lolth's will!
On what page does this "forbidden to harm females" exist? Or is this just based on an assumption, given one of Liriel's experiences?
In any case, local customs vary in drow cities. If this were indeed "Lolth's will" as a point of religious dogma for her faith, it would be reflected in every drow city in the Underdark. So then why, if this is such an important religious law, does Lolth allow Rilauven (ruled by males), Sshamath (ruled by males), etc... to exist in such defiance of female supremacy? Because it's not a law, that's why. Remember that Lolth has zero respect for females that let power slip through their fingers.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 21 Jun 2011 16:19:00 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 16:04:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
I'm finding all of this incredibly interesting! I'd like to ask another question, if I may? How would a drow be treated in Waterdeep itself? I know about Skullport, but would a drow be welcomed there? Where would a drow be likely to find rooms at? I know a place they'd likely drink at, according to VGtW, which is The Crawling Spider. Also, I'm pretty sure they'd be less than welcome at The Elfstone Tavern. But could a drow find lodging at say, The Inn of the Dripping Dagger, or any of the other fine inns of the city? Would any of the guards, watch or watch-wizards follow him or her around? Would the drow also be able to purchase supplies or gear anywhere, turned away, or be subject to suddenly increased prices? I've been told that Waterdeep is more open than most cities when it comes to situations like that, but I also know I haven't read as much as a few of you here have. Your help on this would be greatly appreciated.
And while I'm on it, would drow be allowed in Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter, or would they be turned away at the gates?
This really depends on whether you're talking about 4E or pre-4E. In 4E, they'd be viewed with some suspicion (as racial hatreds take a long time to die out). But in 4E, there's a difference between "dark elf" and drow, given certain novel events leading up to 4E. They don't look different AFAIK, they both have dusky-to-ink-black skin of varying shades. But being a dark elf in 4E doesn't necessarily mean you come from the Underdark or have any association with Lolth. You might, but you might also be a goodly surfacer dark elf.
Before 4E, though, drow would find it hard gaining acceptance in any surface city. They'd rely on disguises, both magical and mundane. Skullport, as you said, is a place where they wander around freely and engage in all manner of trade. But on the surface, they'd be feared and hated (unless they restrict themselves to someplace like the Promenade or nearby communities where Eilistraens have footholds). That said, if you have a sufficient disguise, you can get lodging or engage in trade to your heart's content. Until you're caught, of course. Waterdeep and similar cities would likely run you out of town. Smaller and more insular communities might try to burn a drow at the stake.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 18:11:44
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Drow law
From FOR2
<quote>Social station is the most important
thing in the world of the drow. Ascension
to greater power is the ultimate goal in
drow society. Assassination is the preferred
tool in this job. It must be used
discreetly in the city setting, for to openly
murder or wage war (on a rival House)
brings down the merciless might of drow
justice (not because of the act itself,
simply as punishment for the boorish act
of fighting in public).</quote>
Well clearly not all the law, clearly an indication of "normal" Drow society. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Banter Darkdirk
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2011 : 16:21:12
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In general males are supposed to be subserviant to all females...openly. Openly is the key word. A male noble's station is really given so that he can govern other drow males, slaves, soldiers, etc; and for managing the business and affairs of the House. A female matron may be angry and seek recourse openly or in secret against an insult against one of her male nobles (seeing it more as "you disgraced my property"). But this generally has to do with other plots and conflict between two Houses.
And non-noble males are fodder. Barely elevated over slaves (and for no other reason except that they are drow). |
Sellsword for hire; sometimes mage...most times thief.
"Stealth and wariness are virtues, as are glibness and the skill to say one thing and mean another, twisting a situation to your advantage." |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 11:35:45
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I think you're all right. But I'd further say that you seem to ignore some very important detail: Scale of Society.
Drow society (I'm talking only about Lolth-orientated communities like Menzo…) doesn't consist only of noble families. In fact, a House of 400-500 Drow is ruled by only 4-5 nobles. And not every Drow can call a house her or his "home". Many live in open city districts. Second, even if females are considred to be superior to men, they are not in numbers. I think the mixture of females/males in Drow society is "nearly 50/50" as well. And not every woman can rule and not every man has to obey – it all depends on status (as it was stated many times above: Lolth does not suffer fools.).
When I say that not every woman can rule, I mean the following: It's common that males achieve vital positions. See Zaknafein and his equivalents in other houses. See all those mages. And with power comes privilege.
So a man has definetly (!) the right to defend himself when insulted by a woman of lower rank and status. There is no predefined and absolute superiority of women to men. There can't be - otherwise, please explain why there are female slaves…
Females can be subordinates to men. Otherwise, Zaknafein or Rizzen couldn't have commanded Do'Urden's troops, since it's foolish to assume that women couldn't be fighters if they wanted to – afterall a woman would be appreciated in a group of fighters, since Drow women are bigger and stronger then men. But a captain would definetly have the right (if not duty!) to defend himself against the insult of some bloody-new rookie, if she's female or not. Some teacher/old master at Sorcere could definetly kill a female apprentice if badly insulted. Watching priestesses of Lolth wouldn't mind – since obviously that woman must have deserved her fate. Lolth does not suffer fools.
When it comes to noble houses, all is slightly more complicated since you have to regard not only the personal but also the house's status. While a priestess from a low ranked house would be considered above the first houses captain (is it what Zaknafein is called? His title is something like "Weapon's Master" in german…), simply because she is priestess, I see no reason, why this captain shouldn't be considered ranked higher than some female wizard of the lower ranked house. Here, it's a bit ambiguous and here personal power and influence starts to get important.
To give a rough sketch of Drow hierarchy (top to bottom and not regarding different houses):
- Clergy
- Nobles (of all kind)
- Wizards and Mages
- Fighters
- Rouges and Assassins
- "normal" workers etc.
- homeless and scallywags
- slaves
- driders
- non-drow
The higher the difference between the male's and female's status (assuming the male's higher), it's more likely that he has the right to openly defend himself. A proud fighter of a noble house's army would slay a non-noble craftsperson on the spot, if insulted. Even if she's female. And a high-ranked wizard will show a fighter her place.
Of course, it's not very clever to do so, since all witnesses will now consider you as a potential threat – if you kill a woman openly, you're obviously dangerous. But if a lower ranked (!) woman starts a fight she can't deal with, nobody cares. She failed – she deserved to fail. Let me quote again the wise words: Lolth does not suffer fools. |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
---
When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 19:51:58
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| guess my last dm (My ex, though we're friends) was the only one that ruled (as a joke of course) that the only place a drow male had was their face between female drows legs. |
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2011 : 22:03:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracons
guess my last dm (My ex, though we're friends) was the only one that ruled (as a joke of course) that the only place a drow male had was their face between female drows legs.
That's not a position I can argue with.  |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2011 : 00:15:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dracons
guess my last dm (My ex, though we're friends) was the only one that ruled (as a joke of course) that the only place a drow male had was their face between female drows legs.
That's not a position I can argue with.
 - Sounds like your ex had a really good sense of humor!  |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2011 : 05:23:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
Drizzt was, at first, a follower of Lolth. Going by FR convention, I would have said he was technically a follower of Lolth for most of his early life (albeit not a very good one at all), then dipped into being one of the Faithless for a while, and then found his way to Mielikki.
And Lolth has always taken a rather special degree of interest in Drizzt. There's a short story out there about when Drizzt was a child, and he declared that "he wasn't afraid of spiders". Later, during a ceremony where Lolth would appear to one House in the city, Lolth chose to appear to Drizzt, holding a short conversation with him.
From that, I would probably argue that rather than Lolth always micromanaging everything that goes on, she simply took a greater-than-usual interest in Drizzt (and then there's that remark from I think Tos'un Armgo about how Lolth might even favour Drizzt as a bringer of chaos to the drow... though I personally doubt it). This is not something that is necessarily going to happen for every single House in the city.
Nope. Drizzt was NEVER a follower of Lolth. His statement in that story (the same one where Zak almost got himself turned into a drider) was basically his rejection of her. His later refusal to participate in the graduation "ceremoy(orgy) solidified that stance. Drizzt may have been RAISED by Lolth-worshipers, but he did not himself follow her at all- as evidenced by his disgust during the lectures by Master Hatch'nett. Saying he followed her during his early life is simply inaccurate.
Up to a point. Jarlaxle has no issues with backtalk and negotiating - he'll obey the one he's hired by because he's been hired, but he won't do what they say just for the sake of doing what they say. He pulls Triel (when she was Mistress of Arach-Tinilith) up more than once.
Jarlaxle is obviously an unconventional drow by any standard, and is certainly irreverent, but he has never openly disobeyed any female. In fact, he is quite respectful in terms of what he will do against them.
Or Lolth holds Jarlaxle high in her favour as an unbalancing factor. Even above a Matron Mother. It creates chaos, unrest, uncertainty. Lolth loves that, especially in a city that has been rather placid for some time now.
I will certainly agree to that. According to the Road of the Patriarch, at the very end it was revealed that he was the third son of Baenre, and had once been sacrificed to her(as all third-borns are). But for some reason, she returned him, and she clearly has no problem with any of his ventures- but since he does not work against females unless hired by another female ( which thus makes it fall under the rule of "taking orders") there is no real reason for anyone to object when he takes part in such an enterprise. It's just part of what he's been HIRED to do- as you said.
You mean like when he started throwing summoned devils in mockery of Lolth's domains/portfolios at Quenthel as soon as he had an opening? No, Gromph is quite willing to settle a debt even at the cost of some of Baenre's prestige (Quenthel being high in Lolth's favour and Mistress of Arach-Tinilith), and I don't even recall seeing much advantage in it for him, besides the fact that Quenthel was difficult to work with and irritating. He might dislike Triel, but he will go out of his way to take a shot at Quenthel.
Note, that was done SECRETLY, and further, was during Lolth's silence, when the situation was greatly in his favor. Had it been during normal times, he never would have dared. He acted against her ONLY because he knew that she had no magic of her own to discover him or defend herself, and because Lolth herself could not even punish him. This is NOT a good example. You're speaking as if it was business as usual, when it clearly was anything BUT. There were a lot of males acting more openly during that time, but had things been running normally, none of them would have ever even considered doing so- it would have been equivalent to suicide.
Because he's pragmatic about it. I mentioned that earlier, I believe.
Sure he would. He'd just kill both of them (presuming, of course, that he deemed the potential benefit of Liriel to be worth the effort - remember, pragmatism and risk vs reward). But again, this doesn't mean he's going to make a habit of doing that. He keeps himself under control.
Nope. Again, he only even attempted to kill Quenthel because he was aware of her lack of defenses and inability to "back it up" if he were caught. I'd like to point out a couple of passages to illustrate: "She always treated him like some retainer, even though he too was a Baenre, a noble of the First House of Menzoberranzan, and the city's greatest wizard besides. In her eyes, he thought, only high priestesses deserved respect." "The mistress governed the entire Academy, Sorcere included, and thus Gromph had found himself obliged to contend with her- indeed, to suffer her oversight- in this one-time haven as well." "....in a realm where Lolth was the only deity anyone worshiped, and her clergy ruled in the temporal sense as well as the spiritual one." (All quotes from Dissolution, ch 1, pgs 8-9 in my pb copy.)
These brief passages show clearly how even Gromph was treated by his own sisters- not just Triel, but by Quenthel and every other Baenre female. He would not act against Quenthel until it became plain that she was at a disadvantage, and even then, it was with the end-goal of supplanting her as Triel's chief adviser- so he could rule from behind the throne, as it were. But he did not even ATTEMPT it until Lolth went quiet!
Or, you know, he could just leave and go to somewhere like Sshamath if he really wanted to.
I doubt he would ever do that. He is perfectly comfortable where he is, and enjoys too much power and influence already to just give it up and go start over somewhere else. He may hate being under the thumbs of his sisters, but he has his own ways of working to change things- subtly and indirectly. After all, he has all the time he needs to plot and scheme to undermine their authority- all without ever lifting a hand against them directly!
quote:
Somehow, your idea of one just charging in does not strike me as all that realistic,
Exactly.
That is exactly it.
A priestess wouldn't just charge into his home uninvited. She would be asking for a fight. That's the whole point - it would be a stupid idea for one to try it (except in extenuating circumstances, like what you mentioned about Baenre itself being under attack), and drow are pragmatic.
Pragmatism only goes so far. Any female who "invaded" his personal sanctuary would clearly have enough power to deal with him, and would probably be there for a VERY good reason- like delivering a message from the Council, or a summons from his Matron. He would be far less likely to start throwing fireballs than to ask questions of her purpose. No, she's not automatically "asking' for a fight. She's probably there on OFFICIAL business- and raising a hand without finding out WHAT would likely be a death sentence!
His status and the perks he has are basically like an open secret, of sorts.
Not entirely sure what this has to do with it.....
The Archmage is, as I recall, supposed to be the most powerful wizard in the city. Now, this obviously might not always be the case, as lesser wizards could have held title to it in the past (as I recall, Gromph's predecessor is an alive-and-kicking archmage with a good chunk more power than Gromph himself has). But no, he isn't the only one who would potentially be qualified for the job. He's the one who holds it, however, and he has successfully defended his position from all-comers for going on a few centuries now.
AFAIK, that predecessor id actually undead, and retired for personal reasons. I've never read anything to suggest that he was more powerful, other than the fact that he was able to summon Gromph. I think he was only the former Master of Sorcere, however.
Against some. There is a very big difference between commoners, lesser nobles, and one of the top five or ten most powerful individuals in the city, male or not. Taking Gromph in would require many more resources than taking in even Zaknafein would (if Zak was actively resisting). As long as he keeps himself under control and doesn't go wild, the Matron Mothers, high priestesses and so on won't interfere with him. He's not upsetting the social order, after all. It's very different than the "idiot drunk down in tavern #34325" mouthing off about a female.
Against SOME?! Name one instance where a male was NOT punished for mouthing off or otherwise displeasing a female? Even if it was only a verbal threat, or a single crack of the whips, they still get their point across. Cross them, and pay the price.
And yet, he was quite willing to kill two of them on the spot. Silence of Lolth or no Silence, he knows what he's got and he is not afraid to use it. And the priestesses know it too. They're not going to push the issue. And Gromph knows that they know that he knows, at that. Which they are also aware of, leading to the balancing act that is status in Menzoberranyr society.
Actually, Lolth's silence was the only reason he was willing to do so, as stated earlier, because he saw an opportunity that normally he would never had even considered. The quotes above explain it quite well- one does not attack a tiger that has all its teeth and claws- but if that tiger suddenly gets de-fanged and de-clawed, it's open season! But even then Gromph would still not even attempt to do so openly- even without her own magic, Quenthel proved to be a match for him. Never once did he attack her openly or directly- he just sent demons at her, from the safety of his sanctum. Hardly the same as murdering a priestess in front of a witness....
And we come back to the favour again. Remember:
Lolth does not suffer fools.
You might be in her favour, but if you do something monumentally stupid - like, say, pushing too hard at picking a fight with the premier wizard of the city and an individual who is well out of your "weight class" - then her favour is going to dry up, and dry up fast. In which case, you're going to get what you have coming to you. A female stupid enough to do that is basically asking for it. There are "rules" and there are rules, and Lolth is not uniform in nature.
First, who is this hypothetical priestess picko=ing a fight with him? And WHY? That's a pretty big assumption- one, that any priestess would pick a fight in the first place (she'd have to be pretty stupid, to risk the wrath of House Baenre), and second, her reason for doing it would have to be REALLY good to even consider it. Like, say- during a war between Baenre and one of the other ruling houses. And she'd probably have a small army at her back, in that case. Not exactly a realistic scenario to just say a priestess goes in picking a fight with the Archmage. I don't even count that as an argument.
I think your approach is just too simplistic to be an accurate depiction of drow society (in Menzoberranzan, at least) beyond the most basic level.
Simplistic? Not really. It's pretty much how things have always been depicted. The women rule. Period. With a very few exceptions (battle-captives-turned-slaves, and a few poverty-stricken prostitutes) females are given more rights, privileges, and respect. Female fighters are still considered above their male counter-parts (they are usually commanders and elite guards) even though a male may "technically" be above them in rank within the house. (A Weapons Master still has to take orders from just about every female in his house!)
@ Eltheran: "No offense, but you have things all twisted up, and are putting too much of your personal spin on things. You have much of it right, but not for the right reasons. If Gromph were to kill a high priestess openly, with witnesses (which he would never do, it's just plain dumb), Triel would punish him yes. But NOT because he's male. She'd do it because it was an open murder with witnesses."
This is not my personal spin, but directly stated lore. I don't need to put any spin on it- it's been explicitly stated in the lore, both in novels and scource-books. I do not use or create any lore tht is not already canon, and my interpretations are literal, direct from the sources.
Consider these as direct examples of my views: "Gromph toyed with the idea of defying the summons. Yet he dared not. Triel reigned in House Baenre, and his life would be worth nothing if he incurred her wrath." (Daughter of the Drow, ch 15, pg 204 in my pb copy.)
"It did not occur to Kharza-kzad that he might refuse Zeerith's command. He was a drow of Menzoberranzan, a lowly male despite his power and his honorary position at Sorcere, and he was bound by law to honor the will of a ruling matron." (DotD, ch 16, pg 212.)
""The fighter's eyes widened as the meaning of the wizard's words became clear. Drow routinely inflicted horrors upon their own people and slaughtered the surface races merely for the pleasure of thge kill, but what Nysstyre suggested was beyond the unspoken code of dark-elven behavior. No female, not even one conquered in battle, was taken against her will. Centuries of indoctrination had forged a taboo that was seldom questioned and rarely violated. Females wielded power in their society, and all female drow were viewed as the mortal incarnations of Lolth." (DotD, ch 1, pg 248.)
"Four males, daring to waylay a female? It was outrageous, unthinkable!" (DotD, ch 19, pg 255.)
"Fyodor of Rashemen was a human, a male, and a commoner, and thus by any measure Liriel had ever known, he was unworthy of her notice." (DotD, ch 21, pg 274.)
"You're qualifying it with "because he's male" when gender in this instance is completely NOT the issue. Your example is open murder with witnesses, and drow society would punish a male or a female for such a murder."
Actually, I NEVER said "because he's male" specifically. I have stated several times that ANY drow committing open murder would be harshly punished or tortured, but males are more likely to be made an example of than females would. It's a double-standard, but that's how they operate.
"No one's mentioned it because it's NOT a law. Lolth believes in female superiority, but she also fosters it by not allowing males into her priesthood and insisting on female heads-of-houses. Again, you're taking the male-female gender issue way further than it really goes."
"So whatever you think this "law" might be, it doesn't exist."
Yes, it does. It is part of her expressed dogma of female superiority. Males are inferior to females in every way(according to her doctrines), and subject to their will. Lolth 's doctrines include supremacy of females over males, and her will IS law in the cities where she holds sway. The quotes above illustrate this. I'm not taking it any further than what has been written in the books. Her clerics reign is absolute. The fact of not allowing males into her clergy even demonstrates the point. She sees them as little more than tools or fodder for her schemes. Essentially, she doesn't give a fig about males at all. And neither do her clerics, beyond the usual purposes of continuing the house.
As to why she "allows" males to rule in other cities, that's pretty simple. She DOESN'T. They took power on their own, because the priestesses either lost her favor, or there were no longer enough of them to retain control (Sshamath is a perfect example, since the males only took over because so few females were being born, while their were large numbers of male births- they just outnumbered them enough to overpower them!)
Females able to get away with murder? Why, yes.... In Dissolution, Greyanna and her hunters were chasing Phaeraun and Ryld all over the city, Drisinil's group of conspirators poisoned most of Quenthel's guards at dinner, etc, etc. And they all seemed to accept it. No one cared that Greyana was killing bystanders in the street in her effort to get to her brother. No one seemed to care over-much that all of Quenthel's FEMALE retainers ended up dead at the table, either. And these were all priestesses who had lost their magic (never mind that ALL of them had- technically, none of them "had her favor" at the time...)
"You're not really getting it: power, not gender, is the key issue in everything you mention here. It's not because they were male. That had next to nothing to do with it. It's because Zak and Drizzt were bucking the system, threatening her power.
No one is arguing that openly attacking a noble female or HP female isn't punishable. Open attacks by either gender are punishable offenses."
But in her cities, power IS very much gender-based. No male would ever be allowed to become a high priest, or rule a house. They only have the power they do because the Matrons ALLOW it. And they will enforce their rule over any male who becomes too much of a threat. Zak and Drizzt were threats because as males, their place was to serve without question, and to obey. By defying that, they were setting an example for others that the Matrons felt was too dangerous to allow. Because they were male. If either had been female, it never would have been thought twice about. They would simply have been seen as ambitious females, rather than dangerous heretics. Same goes for Phaeraun when he killed that priestess and her patrol. If they had not wanted him dead before, they SURE did afterward!
"On what page does this "forbidden to harm females" exist? Or is this just based on an assumption, given one of Liriel's experiences?"
It's cited above- along with the other examples of how males are viewed/treated. And when Gorlist DID try to accost her, she reacted the same way any noble female would- with outrage. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2011 : 15:13:47
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| It's difficult to understand what you're saying, especially without dividers between quote and reply in what is a rather lengthy response. Could you clean it up? |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2011 : 15:32:25
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| It actually is somewhat confusing to read/difficult to figure out who wrote what. Interesting discussion, so clarification would be thankfully received! |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2011 : 15:43:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dracons
guess my last dm (My ex, though we're friends) was the only one that ruled (as a joke of course) that the only place a drow male had was their face between female drows legs.
That's not a position I can argue with.
Well, who are we to deny a DM's ruling…?
But, back to topic:
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
But in her cities, power IS very much gender-based. No male would ever be allowed to become a high priest, or rule a house. They only have the power they do because the Matrons ALLOW it. And they will enforce their rule over any male who becomes too much of a threat. Zak and Drizzt were threats because as males, their place was to serve without question, and to obey. By defying that, they were setting an example for others that the Matrons felt was too dangerous to allow. Because they were male. If either had been female, it never would have been thought twice about. They would simply have been seen as ambitious females, rather than dangerous heretics. Same goes for Phaeraun when he killed that priestess and her patrol. If they had not wanted him dead before, they SURE did afterward!
Of course, no man is allowed to become even novice in Lolth's clergy. Simply, because he's a male. But that's it.
The quoted part is, in my humbly opinion, perfectly correct, but it's too focused on priestesses. They, per definition, stand above males. And so every male clearly violates Lolths law (while one of her priestesses would be, of course, seen as ambitious) when killing or attacking (or even insulting) one of them. But that's not because they're females, but because they're priestesses of Lolth.
But, wouldn't a male (say, a wizard) who kills (of course, not openly…) another wizard of comparable status be also considered as "ambitious"? And what about a fighter killing his captain subtly during a battle to ascend in hierarchy? It's normal.
I can't quote from lore here, but have to refer to common sense, but I think I've got some good points:
There numbers of male and female are pretty equal.
Since females tend to achieve higher positions than males, it's pretty reasonable to assume they get more opportunities to get rid of superiors. If only females are accept to kill females, but also males and females are allowed to kill males, any male's chance to be killed is doubled. Since females are stronger than males, males also lack of some defensive skills. So if a male can't kill a female subordinate becoming too dangerous, no male could achieve high positions – he would be killed somewhere on his way. A female, with approximately half the chance to be attacked and a doubled amount of targets, had better chances. If this was true, we had the following outcome: Females would be in nearly ALL leading positions and there were very few males, since the killings would be unbalanced.
But in fact many vital positions within drow houses are occupied by males. The most teachers in Sorcere – are males. Many soldiers in commanding positions are males. Even the highest fighters and wizards of drow houses are males. And these are positions of power. Why is this?
Second: Remember that the characters in most stories are heroes of high character levels. Most female talking heads are priestesses. So of course they can command any male crossing their way.
But what about a young female fighter entering a matron mother's throne-room for some report and bellowing at the house's archmage to get the §$%§ out of her way? Wouldn't she be punished? Despite the fact she's female and the wizard's a male? |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
Edited by - MisterX on 24 Jun 2011 15:45:03 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2011 : 16:07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
It's difficult to understand what you're saying, especially without dividers between quote and reply in what is a rather lengthy response. Could you clean it up?
Well I can not speak for her, however in general as it reads to me Alystra is putting forward the same point I have offered.
Written Drow law exists, however cultural law most often controls.
Each city of course has its laws and Lolth dominated laws and culture are not the same of cities where religion is different or diminished. A city of magic user leadership clearly has different laws then Priestess ruled city. The culture and customs also can vary some, however there are some common themes, females are generally ranked higher then males when it comes to religion, all Drow tend to believe they are the superior Elven race, most hate all that live on the surface.
Alystra offered antidotes of reports on how males in Lolthian society generally deal with the difference of males and females on what they can get away with and what they can not get away with.
Side note to Alystra: In 2nd Edition FR Lolth did have male Priests, however no reports was it was believed they ever got high in level. In 3rd Edition it clearly appears Lolth either killed all the males or changed them into females. *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2011 : 02:16:11
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Aye, I'm aware of that, Kentinal. That was written in the Demihuman Deities book in her entry. However, as you've noted, males never achieved any sort of high status or rank even then. And then they got weeded out somewhere along the line. Why or how is not mentioned, but 3rd ed went back to the original "female only" clergy.
I do apologize for the somewhat confusing posting above, but I'm not very good at pasting quotes, so I did the best I could by putting more space between the "quotes" and my replies. I'm just not very savvy on the ins and outs of a multiple-quote posting.
So, to answer Mister X- I was using priestesses as a specific example, but hte same general rules would apply to almost any female drow- as is illustrated by some of those quotes above. Particularly the ones from DotD, where Liriel and even the Vaerhaunites themselves all understand the "laws" regarding such an attack. And I'd like to point out at this time that Liriel herself was not even a priestess yet, but had only just begune her training. One can probably extend the same rule to any noble female, at least, and to a lesser degree, and commoner female, as well. The passage regarding battle-captives sums it up quite well, I think. I would have brought in some other citations as well, but those two books and my copy of Drow of Menzoberranzan are the only ones I have that are not boxed up in storage ATM.
Also, Mister X, you bring up an interesting point. My thoughts on this arethat although in theory, a male would have double the chance of getting killed off, most likely, the priestesses and females of his house would not be interested in killing a lowly male to gain status or higher rank or position- it's not worth their time or effort. Also, although they are considered more expendable, males are still a valuable resource for their houses, and wasting that resource would certainly be frowned on by their superiors. This is probably why Malice took her daughters to task for attempting to harm or mistreat Zak and Drizzt- at least until their infractions became too great to ignore. Once she decided they had overstepped their bounds, they were fair game. Drizzt in particular, since he had committed the "sin" of allowing an elf to live. So whereas males would have to work doubly hard at moving up while avoiding being murdered by others, the ones who rise high enough would be that much more exceptional- and Zak himself is a great example of this. He started as a commoner, and only became part of House Do'Urden itself by excelling at his craft and attracting Malice's notice in (ahem) other areas. He was even allowed to take the House name, something few male commoners would be allowed to do.
A female in similar conditions would probably have an easier time of it. Any male she wished to kill could probably be excused as having been insubordinate. (Even if it's not true- who's going to argue?) And other females who are higher up are also busy plotting against THEIR superiors, so they have to keep their eyes on both the ones above AND below them- all while dealing with their male counterparts, as well. There is also the factor of lolth's faith to consider. Most drow females favor clerical studies over all others, and focus on that, so they would not have to worry as much about competition form males in the first place, since males can't even join. For the few who take a different path, they have their own classes to study those subjects (Liriel did, at least), or can take private tutorials to avoid being tossed in among the males. This largely leaves the pursuits of wizardry and fighting to the males- it's the only options open to them, since they are barred from the clergy. But females can (and occasionally DO) choose any path they wish, assuming their House allows it. But most seem to view fighting as something beneath them, and wizardry is a mostly male talent. (Liriel was stated as being one of the few females who actually had the gift for arcane magic.) So the males have those two options mostly to themselves, in any case.
As for would it be considered ambitious of him to do so? Certainly. But if that other wizard were also a female of a noble house, he might very well incur the wrath of her family for it if anyone finds out! Of course, most families would not bat an eye for two male wizards duking it out- the victor would simply deserve more status by virtue of being better, as far as they are concerned.
Would a female fighter be punished for that? Hmm, I'd say not likely. In fact, the Matron herself might punish him for getting in the way, if she didn't do it herself. And if the female fighter did snarl at him, the Matron might even find it amusing and appropriate. I suppose that's up to Matron's discretion.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2011 : 03:19:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I do apologize for the somewhat confusing posting above, but I'm not very good at pasting quotes, so I did the best I could by putting more space between the "quotes" and my replies. I'm just not very savvy on the ins and outs of a multiple-quote posting.
You just use the quote tags (the "Originally Posted by..." section is just italicised text with a forced line break after it, rather than the slightly more complex tags used by forums with more advanced coding than Candlekeep). To open a quote, you use (quote) and to close one, you use (/quote). Put the text you're quoting inside those two commands, and the forum software will do the rest. Just remember to replace the curved brackets with the "[" and "]" brackets, and it should work. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2011 : 03:40:49
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| Well, I've tried doing that in the past, and it never seems to come out right. Given my meager computer skills, I just stopped trying. It was more of a headache than it was worth, and I'm usually posting from the library, where I'm on a strict time-limit. It's just faster to do one large quote and interject, so I don't waste my minutes of net-access trying to make sure all the coding get in the right places. And my pc at home is on dial-up, which is both slow and unreliable. I'd end up spending all my time on just one post doing that. Sorry if it inconveniences, but I don't have enough net-time to do it that way. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2011 : 00:44:45
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Alystra: you're not really understanding the nuances of what I was trying to explain. Furthermore, you're only referencing material specific to Menzoberranzan. This "law" which you're claiming is a key part of Lolth's dogma only really fits perfectly with the social dynamic in Menzo. It's not Lolth's "law" but rather an outcome of the power dynamic.
You have to remember that all drow souls, unless they take up with other deities on purpose, are under Lolth's perview. Discounting what happens in cities other than Menzo, particularly ones where males lead, is a huge mistake and actually encourages a rather narrow view of Lolth's religion. Lolth actually has priesthoods in those other cities, which (if you were correct) would be tasked with bringing down the male-led power centers of those cities.
Again, I'm not arguing that males are considered "equal", not at all. But what you're seeing in Menzo (and some of the other cities but not all) is a socially derived result of Lolth's favoritism to females in the priesthood and NOT a direct, core feature of her religious dogma per se. It's a nuance, but a very important one. Power first is the key to understanding Lolth. Dismissal of males in cities where Lolth's priests hold the most power is simply a result of the structure, and neither a "law" nor part of her dogma specifically. Lolth has just as much sway over the souls in male-led cities, and she actually encourages such strife as part of her overall outlook.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2011 : 04:41:34
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Actually, we really don't have enough info on any other cities to verify that, given that the only other cities which have had much info written are Sshamath, (Which was taken over by males, as stated earlier- and I'll point out that although she still has a few priestesses in that city, they don't have enough power to retaliate.) and Ched Nasad, which was both a vassal city to Menzo and under the same sort of rule as that city. Very little is known of the other drow cities, either in power structure or local customs and social dynamics. We have to base our knowledge (or assumptions) on what is KNOWN from the canon. Unfortunately, your argument simply doesn't takI understand perfectly the nuances of your point- I simply don't agree with its validity, because the evidence we have does not really support it.
I realize you are not arguing for male equality, but keep in mind that several of the quotes I used above are taken from parts of those books that don't even take place in Menzo, but well outside the city, and even on the surface! Obviously, if the drow (even the Vaerhaunites!) in those other locales still hold to the same basic rules, then it must be a fairly widely accepted "law" among ALL Lolth-worshiping drow. And it's apparently still followed even by those who have turned away from her, given Gorlist's reaction to Nysstyre's suggestion.
In "Drow of the Underdark" written by Ed himself, Menzo is mentioned as a "typical" drow settlement, meaning that most other Lolth-worshiping settlements will be similar. Additionally, it states that drow who follow Lolth generally do not speak of or recognize those who don't. In other words, one could almost say there are TWO drow "races"- those who follow her, and those who follow other deities. Further, it says: "All drow who do not worship Lolth are to be converted or destroyed. All weak and rebellious drow are to be weeded out. All who impugn the faith must perish. Males who act independently of Lolth's dictates (and those of her priestesses) are to be sacrificed to Lolth.
Also, according to DotU, The typical ranking of a drow house goes as thus: Matron Mother, followed by all females of her blood in order of age. Next are the male officers of the House, such as the Weapon Master, House Wizard, and Patron. The next down are the male heirs of the house- also ranked by age- unless they hold one of the above offices. They are not allowed to look at the faces of higher-ranked drow, or even speak unless bidden. Below them are the "war-leaders", followed by it's common members. The Matron Mother decrees all ranks within the house, and these can change at her whim. Females hold all positions of power within the government, the military, and the home. Males are relegated to fighting and wizardy, for the most part. The few male-commanded groups are either Streeakh- "Suicide squads", or Dobluth- "outcasts" who have rejected the traditional authority-structure.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2011 : 15:15:36
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quote:
originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Actually, we really don't have enough info on any other cities to verify that
Eryndlyn, located beneath the High Moor, is openly divided between Lolth's followers on the one side and those of Ghaunadaur and Vherau on the other. They're quite even, so even when Lolth's silence began, her whorshippers were not crushed.
Guallidurth, below Calim Desert, is full of Lolth's servants – but nearly each of them whorsphip the goddess in his/her own ways. So there are plenty of sects and even more temples/shrines (therefore the name "Temple City of Lolth")
Llurth Dreir, beneath the Shaar, is mostly home to followers of Ghaunadaur, since the Goddess turned her back at the "accursed city", hundreds of years ago.
Maerimydra, just below Shadowdale, was a city of Lolth-worshippers like Menzo, until it was destroyed by a mighty follower of Kiaransalee and her servants during Lolth's silence (I actually ignored that and set a campaign of drow there after she regained her voice…).
Mantol-Derith includes a small drow community which lets the other parts of the city live – their inhabitants: svirvnebli, duergar, surface dwellers.
Sshamath, as already mentioned, is controlled by wizards. Religion plays a minor role, here.
T'lindhet, below Dambrath, seems to be a Lolth-dominated city, since Lolth is venerated in Dambrath, a (former) surface-colony of that particular city.
Undrek'Thoz (in actually seven places below Thay), features a monk (yes, lawful!) order of Lolth followers. They're a notably base of power and the matrons can't - and won't - ignore them. My sources let me assume that they've got some more privilegues apart from getting children from every house…
Sschindylryn is known to me as a drow city as well, where males rule. But I might err, and the Underdark 3.5e supplement (source for all information noted above) keeps silent concerning that city.
Most of the cities above will certainly have similar power dynamics to Menzo, but they all differ slightly. So I tend to agree to Eltheron, here…
quote:
originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The typical ranking of a drow house goes as thus: Matron Mother, followed by all females of her blood in order of age. Next are the male officers of the House, such as the Weapon Master, House Wizard, and Patron. The next down are the male heirs of the house- also ranked by age- unless they hold one of the above offices.
Yes. And next down are the commoners. Of both gender. |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2011 : 17:20:35
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I'll grant you that, but we still don't know much about the daily worship practices and social intricacies of those cities. That's why I did not include them- there just isn't enough info on them to judge how males are actually treated there. Mantol-Derith is not strictly speaking a city, but a trade-hub, and is equally ruled by leaders of all the racial factions. And we don't really know what faith rules among the drow there. tlindet is likely much like Menzo, as is Undrek'Thoz. It is notable for the monk order, but AFAIK, they still fall under the authority of her priestesses. They are basically a military order, much like the so-called Red Sisters. And then we also have Lith'Myathar, which is a city that seems to have vacilated between followers of Lolth and Eilistraee. Last I checked, the Eilistraeeans were fairly evenly matched with them. That might have changed, however.
As for the commoners, I already mentioned that. But most of the females of any given house would most likely be daughters (or even grand-daughters) of the matron herself, or possibly her own sisters and/or their offspring. (Triel is a great example- her rise was very recent, and so her sisters are still considered ranked near the top of the heirarchy. One can assume that their own daughters, if any, are ranked among the nobles as well.) As far as I can discern, there seem to be very few non-noble females in most houses, aside from a few low-ranked priestesses and elite guards. Even captured females are often adopted into the family (as Sinafay was), making them automatically higher than any male captives, or even the house soldiers. (Baenre seems to do this a lot with the survivors of fallen houses, which partly explains how they stay on top. Even one of Triel's "sisters" was not of Baenre blood.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2011 : 09:53:55
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quote:
Originall posted by Alystra Illianniis
But most of the females of any given house would most likely be daughters (or even grand-daughters) of the matron herself, or possibly her own sisters and/or their offspring.
You're telling me a house of, like, 400 people consist of ten nobles (of which most are female) and 390 male? Or did I get you wrong?! |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2011 : 23:57:34
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| No, actually, about half that number would not even be drow. They would be slaves of other races. There would probably be about seven female nobles, (especially considering the rule regarding third-born living sons) and three male nobles- the rest of the house would likely be evenly divided in sexes, but the females would hold higher rank within that number, other than the few positions open to males- ie, House Wizard, Weapon Master, and Patron(s). This is an extimate, mind you, based on the set-up of some of the houses with established lore, like Baenre, Do'Urden, and Hun'ett. Hunett had two male nobles that we know of- likewise Do'Urden. (I don't count Nalfein, as he died when Drizzt was born.) Baenre has more males, but it was stated in Homeland that Matron Baenre (Triel's mother) had SEVENTEEN daughters! (And some of those were probably adopted from fallen houses.) So the noble female/male ratio seems to be at least two to one. Comoners are probably more even in number. So out of the entire house of 400, only half might be drow, the rest would be goblins and such- and they are only counted in the house for purposes of "ready forces". (Malice was mentioned as having 250 soldiers in her house, and you can bet most of them were not drow- in fact, I recall that only her squads of elite troops were drow at all.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2011 : 01:25:53
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So we still have 200 (let's say 100 for a minor house and 99 for easier counting – the 100th just got killed today for the Matron's pleasure or sth) Drow in that house. All men? Can't believe that. Even if we'd assume the ratio 2:1 female:male (which I strongly doubt, actually) there would be 33 men. Let's assume most of them (like, 20) are either fighters or arcanists (10 each, for instance). I think at least one of each branch would outrank some of the women of the house in skill, thus serving (naturally) one step higher in the chain of command (and, therefore, above some females). If no other, these will be the House Wizard's and Weapon Master's picked student (it's in the Matron's and therefore the House's interest, to have someone to follow the former House Wizard/Weapon Master, since only that turns those particular drow "expendable").
But even if those 33 men were all ranked below their female counterparts – there would be still the House Wizard, Weapon Master and the occasional Patron to command 66 female commoners.
Point made. |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2011 : 16:09:36
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| I wanted to thank everyone for their answers, and if anyone has more to add, please do so! I'm still kind of on the go, and just back from being out of state a couple of days ago. I didn't want any of you thinking I had stopped reading or appreciating the information and views shared and expressed here. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Suru
Acolyte
7 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2011 : 20:56:51
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People here seem to be debating the wrong things. Obviously in Drow Culture if you get away with something because you don't get caught your in the clear, but I think this can all be simplified by tiering the power of Drow Society. A male can openly disrespect his lesser, even if female. A lesser can be defined by this chart. As you can see, most of the time, females are their superior. Obviously this only reflects Menzoberranzan. Also you have to take into account each tier has its own power structure, for instance Baenre Noble is more prestigious then someone of a lower house. This is why male strieve to become masters, so they can be elevated in position over other males. A Master is more prestigious then even a Baenre male who is not a Master, and so forth. You also have to take into account that all Noble females are expected to be priestesses. There are very few exceptions. Drow society is all about moving up the ladder. Here I give you the ladder. The people you have to worry about are always the ones just behind you, and the ones who have to worry about are just ahead of you. Some of you mentioned the Brothel, but if you notice the males going there were nobles, and the female a slave, which gives us more insight into the power structure.
Tier 1
Matron Mothers, 8 Houses
Tier 2
Matron Mothers other houses
Tier 3
Headmistress, High Priestesses
Tier 4
Priestesses
Tier 5
Noble Females
Tier 6
Arch Mage, Masters of the Academies, House Mages, Weapon Masters
Tier 7
Noble Males
Tier 8
Commoner Females
Tier 9
Female Slaves
Tier 10
Commoner Males
Tier 11
Male Slaves
Tier 12
Non-Drow
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2011 : 21:32:10
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| Hmm, I would put female slaves below Commoner Males. Even if Drow female, though most slaves appear to be other races. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2011 : 22:27:16
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| Same as Kentinal. Otherwise, thoes "tiers" look good. |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2011 : 06:19:15
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| Erm, Mister X, if you will re-read my last post, I said that of those two hundred left, they would be somewhat evenly divided in sexes. So it would be about 100 of each, give or take, but the female commoners/soldiers would be above their male counterparts, and only be commanded by the noble males or the weapon master or house mage or patron themselves- but since most of those female soldiers would probably be considered "elite" guards (Just as the guards in Arach-Tinilith were all female, and in fact there were NO males there at all!), they would more likely be under the direct command of the Matron or her daughters themselves. (Because they are more trusted than male guards.) And I also had the tiers (in a more simplified form) as Suru put them- though not in the same format. I'll agree almost completely with his rankings, and add that the noble males were allowed into that particular brothel by invitation only. Even the proprietor did not want just ANY males walking in. He had a business to protect. BTW, the non-drow tier covers both males and females of other slave races. Obviously, in Sorcere or Melee-Magthere, most of the guards would probably be male, but a typical House would have a mix. But within that mix, the females would be most likely to have command positions. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2011 : 07:24:07
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quote:
originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Erm, Mister X, if you will re-read my last post, I said that of those two hundred left, they would be somewhat evenly divided sexes. So it woudl be about 100 of each, give or take
I apologize but after carefully re-reading your last post, I still can't see it. I'm sorry.
Indeed:
quote:
originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
As far as I can discern, there seem to be very few non-noble females in most houses, aside from a few low-ranked priestesses and elite guards.
This "few" in combination with the high number of 17 (regarding Triel's daughters) didn't sound to me like you meant "100" with that.
As for the "Tiers":
quote:
originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
but the female commoners/soldiers (…) would be (…) only commanded by the noble males or the weapon master or the house mage or patrom themselves
Correct. I'm glad we agree, that a female slave can't command the house's patron (I've understood your first posts quite like this, you know?).
But a female slave won't be above a "free" male in status. Switch Tiers 9 and 10 and I'm fine with it (since I already gave that structure posts ago, too).
Regarding the "elite guards" – yes, most women are better fighters than their male counterparts since drow females are bigger and stronger. But "elite" comes with strenght and skill, not strength and sex. I strongly agree that there are more females in high positions than males. But – leaving the clerics aside – a male drow can by principle achieve any position a female can. It's just (much) harder. So there are some (but few) male elite fighters as well. Again: To become number one (#8594; Weapon Master) you've to train a long time as number two. If there were no male #2 – we'd get a female #1, when the former #1 passes out… |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
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The Place of Drow Males
Topic Locked
