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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
 Posted - 16 May 2011 : 18:11:35
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-Good lord, look at that wife's guide...  + 
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think it would depend on the deity, actually... Obviously, a Banite wanting to marry a Mystran or a Helmite is going to have issues with his superiors, should they find this out, and Bane would prolly signal his disapproval, as well. But a priest(ess) of someone like Malar, Mask, Loviatar or Talona -- all listed allies of Bane -- shouldn't be as much of an issue for a Banite priest(ess).
-The optimal way to signify alliances among the faiths. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 16 May 2011 18:12:25 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 18:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
What about a *secret* marriage story? A Banite priest/paladin fulfills his usual domineering duties for the temple, but also carries on a secret relationship outside the faith--possibly with a devotee of another faith entirely. Eh?
Possibly among low-ranking priests only. The ones in higher position would most likely avoid it, as their deities would probably discourage them. Being in position, they could easily exchange crucial information about their faiths that their gods might deem destructive.
Ah, but that just makes the stakes that much higher, doesn't it? 
Cheers
Hmmm. Would the high priest of Bane dare defy his god just to "follow his heart"? Sounds like a theme for romance than fantasy. But if handled well, it could work. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 18:50:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
What about a *secret* marriage story? A Banite priest/paladin fulfills his usual domineering duties for the temple, but also carries on a secret relationship outside the faith--possibly with a devotee of another faith entirely. Eh?
Remember--just because someone is evil by alignment doesn't mean that person doesn't have emotions or desires like any other person. The evil person who does evil things because he/she loves his/her family, partner, etc., is way more interesting than the evil-for-evil's-sake villain.
Possibly among low-ranking priests only. The ones in higher position would most likely avoid it, as their deities would probably discourage them. Being in position, they could easily exchange crucial information about their faiths that their gods might deem destructive. And we must take Cyricists out of the picture---Bane hates Cyric so much he'd rather be perished than ally with him or let his priests associate with his clergy.
I think it would depend on the deity, actually... Obviously, a Banite wanting to marry a Mystran or a Helmite is going to have issues with his superiors, should they find this out, and Bane would prolly signal his disapproval, as well. But a priest(ess) of someone like Malar, Mask, Loviatar or Talona -- all listed allies of Bane -- shouldn't be as much of an issue for a Banite priest(ess).
Even allies keep secrets to themselves, in case certain circumstances would make them enemies. I'm not saying the aforementioned gods (allies) would prevent their high priest(ess) from having homo-(or hetero-)sexual relationships with each other. But they may order a few restrictions. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 18:53:46
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quote:
What about a *secret* marriage story? A Banite priest/paladin fulfills his usual domineering duties for the temple, but also carries on a secret relationship outside the faith--possibly with a devotee of another faith entirely. Eh?
Remember--just because someone is evil by alignment doesn't mean that person doesn't have emotions or desires like any other person. The evil person who does evil things because he/she loves his/her family, partner, etc., is way more interesting than the evil-for-evil's-sake villain.
I think this would be less of an issue than first appears. Let's assume, for a moment, that a cleric of Bane falls in love with a cleric of Red Knight. They decide to have a relationship. That's not a huge big deal, and it is unlikely to cause a major conflict especially if both clerics are relatively minor entities in the church. If they're both individuals of power and influence in the church it may raise problems, but less because of the deities they worship and more to do with sharing secrets and information.
However, we deal with that all the time in the real world. Imagine a member of the CIA with Top Secret national security clearance entering into a relationship with an individual from a foreign country. Same issues.
I think it's important not to allow the views of our monotheistic culture influence how we view the Realms. They're polytheistic. It's perfectly acceptable for a cleric of Bane to offer prayers to another deity in addition to Bane. Thus, you could have a Cleric of Bane offering prayers to Umberlee before a voyage at sea or to Tempus or Red Knight before a battle in addition to their own deity. In fact, I'd say it would be odd if they didn't. That wouldn't make them less faithful to Bane; though there may be some sects of the church which practice some type of henotheism.
The exception to this rule are Cyricists who I'd define as practitioners of monolatrism. They recognize that there are other powers and deities, but refuse to acknowledge them believing Cyric is superior in every way. I'd say that is the official stance of Cyric's church and taking a counter view would be considered heresy.
The largest issues when it comes to inter-faith relationships would arise from faiths that are at odds. For example, a Banite and a Tormite having a relationship together might not end for either of them being expelled from their churches but it would be a scandal. Both would likely lose face and standing within their respective faiths should the relationship ever become publicly known.
Naturally, in some areas and cultures it is more scandalous than others. It's less scandalous if it happens in Waterdeep than - let's say - Zhentil Keep.
That being said, if it's just a sexual relationship there likely would be less disapproval than if it were romantic. Both sides, should it become known, would likely encourage their respective cleric to manipulate the cleric on the opposing side... in hopes of gaining valuable information that they can use against each other. Punishment may take place for refusing. This is where the conflict / story arises.
quote:
I do think that "mature relationship" stories don't fly as much in fantasy as "fall in love and vanquish the threat" sort of stories do, at the basic genre level. This is, after all, fantasy, and there is at least a perception in publishing (and the sales numbers do bear it out) that people are WAY more interested in the escape of early romance, rather than developed relationships. There's a reason we don't hear much from heroes after they "settle down."
Cheers
Oh, I don't know about that. Just tossing an idea out there: A female Red Wizard Banite and her female consort are in love. They share a... healthy respect for one another, while recognizing their boundaries within the relationship. The Red Wizard is, quite obviously, the dominate one. The story could take place in Athkatla, with the primary plot line involving the Wizard and her schemes to grow in power and influence. The consort could be a well-trained bard with many natural talents. A grand prize; a woman desired by many.
It'd be a story of seduction, betrayal, love, romance, murder, sex, money, and politics. Aim it at a mature audience, take some inspiration from George R. R. Martin, and I'd imagine such a book would sell well.
Make sure to hype up the fact that there are some steamy, explicit lesbian sex scenes in the novel, that FR is being racy and pushing the envelope, and I'm pretty sure it'd push the paper with the teenage fanboy FR readership as well.
Not that I believe WotC would ever green light such a novel; FR has been in an uphill battle over the years to just not portray those of evil alignment as idiotic and ridiculous failures. I don't expect to see any explicit gay / lesbian relationships anytime soon. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 16 May 2011 21:18:15 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 19:37:55
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quote:
HAHAHA you guys talk about the whole dangers of a gay banite wedding and consummation, if you think this is whack try having 2 gay cyricists or gay talosian/talosers??(i don't know this one
I think this view is wrong because it still bases the assumption off two factors. First, is the assumption that marriage in FR is like modern marriage in the real world. Second, is the assumption that deities would have an invested interest in performing marriages - the same way things are handled in monotheistic faiths.
As Faerūn is largely a polytheistic culture Sune would likely perform the bulk of marriage ceremonies, particularly among the common folk. The vast, VAST majority of the churches wouldn't perform marriages at all. They would not have an invested interest in doing so.
Bane's church may perform contractual unions, as I described, but this is very much different from how we'd envision a marriage. Love may or may not be involved. Love would likely be a requirement in a Sunite marriage, and if the two individuals could not truthfully state their love for one another it likely wouldn't be sanctioned.
Certain deities may "bless" the unions of their faithful. For example, a Kelemvorite Paladin marrying another Kelemvorite Paladin. It wouldn't mean anything, other than the church recognizing and celebrating the union, the same way a family might celebrate a marriage.
Waukeen likely would perform contractual marriages between merchants and their families, though the primary interest in such unions would be the facilitation of trade. As a result, it could look similar to the Banite Marriage, without the domination.
Siamorphe would CERTAINLY bless the unions between noble families, but would likely refuse to marry common folk.
Amaunator, Tyr, Torm, and Helm would bless unions and treat it as a matter of contractual law similar to Bane.
Mystra / Azuth would likely bless unions between wizards or sorcerers, but not those who don't practice magic. (Such unions would obviously lead to the sharing of magic, as well as both working together to develop more magic.)
Jergal / Kelemvor MIGHT bless a union, but only if those getting married are likely going to die in the immediate future. The primary goal of such a union would be to reunite in the afterlife. Someone going on a suicide mission, for example. So the marriage would likely also double as a funeral.
After Sune, I'd say Lathander would likely be the second most popular deity to be married by, since he's a deity of renewal and new beginnings. Marriage can often be seen as such. In many cases, it likely wouldn't be odd to have a priest of Lathander and Sune perform a marriage jointly.
Tempus or Red Knight might bless a marriage between two great warriors.
Outside of those deities, there may be a few select cases of others... but what need would Shar, Cyric, or Talos have in marrying individuals?
Even in the above cases the marriages they'd perform would be highly situational. It could even involve multiple priests from different faiths. For example, a wealthy nobleman may pay to have a priest of Lathander, Sune, Tymora, Waukeen, and Siamorphe all come together to bless a single union. But the bulk of marriages between the common folk likely just involve Sune. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 20:11:47
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Here is how I imagine the average marriage in Faerūn would look like...
Most people live in rural areas outside of cities, towns, and villages. As a result, they're unlikely to have an active priest of a desired faith in their community.
In Cormyr or Tethyr, if you live nearby your lord / lady, they'd likely perform your marriage ceremony even if a priest of a particular faith is present. Such a priest would be there to bless the union.
However, in the majority of cases a priest is going to have to travel to get to a rural community. This duty would likely be delegated to newer priests recently inducted into the church.
The churches would expect to be paid for their travel, expenses, and the blessing. Yes, even the priests of Sune would expect this - those Temples don't build themselves. Having such a blessing from a member of the clergy would be highly valued, and thus many would likely pay a suitable tithe.
This is the perfect opportunity for a benevolent lord, who wants to earn the respect and love of his people, to step in and pay to have a priest venture to the community to bless the marriage.
In more rural and poor communities, a priest of Chauntea may perform the marriage ceremony, blessing the union to be "as plentiful and as bountiful as the harvest." Though this would be very similar to the noble who performs the ceremony, and the priest of Chauntea is likely to invoke other deities on behalf of the individual getting married. They are likely to be paid, not with coin, but with some form of barter - things from the field, cattle, chickens, goats, etc.
A village elder or leader may also stand in for a noble / priest of Chauntea.
In the most ideal situations, you'd see small villages planning multiple marriages all at the same time. You'd then have multiple families working and saving to pay to have a priest from a nearby town or city travel to their community. The entire village would likely be invited to the ceremony and take place in the celebration. It would be a community event.
Regardless of whether or not a priest is present, there is likely going to be offerings to the deities - multiple deities. Tymora for luck, Sune for love, Lathander for the new beginnings, Torm or Helm (whichever is more popular in the region) for commitment to the relationship, etc. There would also likely be local customs regarding the appropriate offerings to such deities for marriages; though in the bulk of cases it wouldn't be much. Most people are likely to be poor, thus it's likely to be some type of animal or something from the fields. It'd be offered to the deity and then consumed by the people there after the marriage is over. Chickens, for example, could be offered to the gods in exchange for their blessing, killed, cooked, and eaten by those present.
That's what marriage would look like in the Realms for the majority of people, IMO.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 20:12:23
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It seems my question generated some interesting responses. Aldrick, I like your take on marriages in general, but what happens when two people (lay worshippers, say) of a particular deity marry, and are of the same basic rank or social/political standing? A union to pool resourses?
Alliances usually happen between "equal" partners, since each has something to offer the other, So that Banite marriage between the merchant's daughter and the nobleman would not offer much to the merchant's family beyond a permanent home for her and perhaps some contacts for the father. But it offers the nobleman almost nothing in return, unless one counts a trophy wife as a return on the investment. Not much in the way of tangible rewards to either side. But a marriage between two relatively equal Banite followers on the other hand, would allow both to use the resources of either one, or of both togehter! Same could be said of a Cyrician(?) marriage, or Sharran, or Talosian(?). |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 20:53:43
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Gah. I'm making tons of posts, but my creative juices are flowing. Apologies for the spam.
Something that hasn't been discussed, which is highly relevant, is when marriages and relationships end badly. This is when some deities get in on the action.
For example, Shar isn't likely to perform a marriage - ever, but many would likely turn to her in the event one does not go well. "Lady of Loss, I beseech you to have mercy on my broken heart, and help me forget the one who has wronged me." Shar is both the goddess of loss and forgetfulness, and these things are highly relevant when a relationship goes sour.
Likewise, if you're feeling vengeful, Cyric or Talos also come into play. One might pray to Cyric in hopes that their former lover is murdered, or at the very least strife is caused in their life. One might pray to Talos: "...just as you bring destruction to the land with your earthquakes and floods, I beg of you to bring destruction to the life of so-and-so who has betrayed their oaths to me. Show no mercy, Great Destroyer, just as you show no mercy to those consumed by your great conflagrations which sweep across the world."
Offerings would be given, priests may even be sought out to bless such hateful feelings.
When dealing with marriages that are more legalistic, such as those involving Bane or Tyr, their clergies would likely be sought out by the aggrieved individual. Both to have the union voided, as well as to see the agreement fulfilled. There would almost certainly be a clause in those contracts as to what should happen if the union goes sour... similar to a prenuptial agreement. The priests of Tyr likely would even oversee a divorce trial, and naturally would keep records and such of it as they would any other legal proceeding they oversee.
quote:
It seems my question generated some interesting responses. Aldrick, I like your take on marriages in general, but what happens when two people (lay worshippers, say) of a particular deity marry, and are of the same basic rank or social/political standing? A union to pool resourses?
Alliances usually happen between "equal" partners, since each has something to offer the other, So that Banite marriage between the merchant's daughter and the nobleman would not offer much to the merchant's family beyond a permanent home for her and perhaps some contacts for the father. But it offers the nobleman almost nothing in return, unless one counts a trophy wife as a return on the investment. Not much in the way of tangible rewards to either side. But a marriage between two relatively equal Banite followers on the other hand, would allow both to use the resources of either one, or of both togehter!
If they are important individuals with power, influence, titles, or wealthy I'd say they'd seek out an appropriate priest of a relevant faith. The agreements would likely be contractual and worked out beforehand. In the case of the wealthy merchant's daughter marrying a nobleman (or noblewoman), an agreement would be worked out that is suitable to both sides. The priest would act as mediator, draw up the contract, and act as the individual responsible for upholding the agreement (or ensuring that the rightful law upholds the agreement). The nobleman may need the wealth and resources held by the merchant, and the merchant may need the power and influence held by a noble. The marriage is merely a way to formally cement an alliance between the two.
Sort of like this: "I get to marry your youngest daughter, and she will bare for me a son within three years time. This son will become the heir to my house, and your family will be elevated to the nobility. Should your daughter fail in her duties to me, you will lose all title, rank and standing, in addition you shall be required to fulfill all of the obligations in the contract. Furthermore, we shall have a joint venture and purchase warehouses in Westgate... 60% of the profits will go to you, and 40% will go to me..."
Naturally, such contracts and arrangements would be different on a case-by-case basis. It could even look something like this: "As a noblewoman I have a great deal of... needs. I offer to purchase your son and have him trained in the seductive arts for 65 golden crowns. He will serve and obey me, as fitting for a consort, and the price is more than fair. I do enjoy them when they're a tad on the ugly and brutish side... once the dirt, fleas, and lice are washed away I hope he doesn't become too handsome for my tastes."
All of this would differ based upon local laws and customs. For example, in Calimshan where slavery is legal, it may be perfectly acceptable for a father to sell his son to the noblewoman. However, since slavery is illegal in Waterdeep, such an arrangement would likely be outlawed as a form of slavery. Such contractual agreements would have to be agreed to by the individual entering into them, thus giving the potential consort a voice in how things proceed. That doesn't mean they couldn't face pressure from their family to enter into such an arrangement, however...
It would be in the best interest of everyone involved that such agreements be entered into above board, and certified and sanctioned by the local law / ruler so that they can be enforced. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 16 May 2011 20:56:22 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 21:50:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
For example, Shar isn't likely to perform a marriage - ever, but many would likely turn to her in the event one does not go well. "Lady of Loss, I beseech you to have mercy on my broken heart, and help me forget the one who has wronged me." Shar is both the goddess of loss and forgetfulness, and these things are highly relevant when a relationship goes sour.
There is an exception to that: Shade. For centuries, most of the people of Shade have been worshiping her and her alone. However, some do not heartily accept her doctrines on loss and nihilism, Telamont being the prime example. Should they wish to marry, it would still be on her blessings though, as Telamont forbids any other faiths in his city. And Shar wouldn't deny them---at least not yet, because they have proven themselves useful so far. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 22:00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Gah. I'm making tons of posts, but my creative juices are flowing. Apologies for the spam.
Why that never stopped me!
I had a idea about two Banites that cross dress to live in an all woman commune of Sunites... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2011 : 22:40:57
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Yes, I'd say Shade is the exception rather than the rule. However, I'd personally declare the Netherese as (at best) bordering on heresy when compared to the majority of the Sharran faith in Faerūn. When they disappeared, Shar was worshiped somewhat differently than she is in her current incarnation.
During the time of Netheril, she was worshiped as the goddess of darkness, night, hatred, loss, forgetfulness, sleep, nightmares, illusions, lies, trickery, secrets, hiding places, betrayal, treachery, seduction, thieves, thievery, murder, and winter. Obviously, Shar has undergone some changes as she's moved from the Netherese pantheon to the Faerūnian Pantheon (taking some losses to those portfolios and gaining others). In 4E FR she may be openly worshiped as the goddess of caverns, dungeons, and the Underdark. However, as far as I'm aware in 3E she is still masquerading as Ibrandul when it comes to such worship.
It is also unclear as to what changes has been made to Sharran worship over the thousand or so years the Netherese have been practicing monolatrism. I'd say among them, she's likely also worshiped as the goddess of magic, and has likely gained / lost other portfolios as well among the Netherese.
This effectively creates to divergent branches of the Sharran church: Netherese and Non-Netherese.
Of course, this is all IMO, and it would be how I'd handle it in my games.
Keep in mind, though, that this wouldn't exactly be all that unusual. Even Oghma's faith is divided and at odds. They became divided after the Time of Troubles when the Grand Patriarch of Oghma (Cullen Kordamant) disappeared, and a schism formed as a result. The main branch of the Oghman faith called the Orthodox Church of Oghma believed that he had ascended to serve as Oghma's proxy, and that he remained the true Patriarch of the church until Oghma named a successor. Yet, a rival group went ahead and named a new Grand Patriarch anyway, which the Orthodox Church refused to accept.
So, such divisions within the Realms is not uncommon. Another example is the Lathander / Amaunator problems. Malarite sects have also gone to war with one another over territory, etc. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 16 May 2011 22:48:48 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 03:46:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Yes, I'd say Shade is the exception rather than the rule. However, I'd personally declare the Netherese as (at best) bordering on heresy when compared to the majority of the Sharran faith in Faerūn. When they disappeared, Shar was worshiped somewhat differently than she is in her current incarnation.
I disagree. Rivalen is the Nightseer, a favored servant of Shar whom she speaks to at times. And he is so devoted to her that he killed her own mother to prove his worth as her servant. Under his leadership, the faithful of Shade can't go wrong with how they worship Shar. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 05:48:35
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Wow first I have to say didn't know that a fr author would be taking stock of the topic but thanks thought for sharing opinion, (loved depths of madness, but why did you kill off Davoren?)
Anyway, everyone has many ideas on the whole novel, let me put my two cents on it, a wizard(cos it be more interesting??) falls in love with a cleric of ilmater (both of them guys) and the wizard wants to propose or take the relationship to the next level but ilmaterite refuses, says not ready, a series of events leads to near death of ilmaterite where he finds out his wizard lover has a dark secret(he's a shade and uses shadow magic, considering 4e no he's not under shar's control(the bitch)) and ilmaterite is appaled.
Wizard runs away, maybe to Luskan,where he meets a asmodeus worshiping warlock(guy too) and the warlock tries to get the wizard under his control while the wizard still struggling with his emotions, an adventure to stop the latest plans of an evil mastermind(perhaps a group of shadow mages formerly of shadovar) he meets up with ilmaterite, who does not want to kill him but has to??(his superior tells him to?) but wizard is saved, by shadovar prince,(anyone wan to make a gay shade prince or at least a bisexual one?) and he and warlock are taken away. to shade. The prince falls head over heels for wizard as they share common interests particularly magic, and another series of events leading up to warlock's death (or perhaps not) and somehow through those same series of events with the ilmaterite unintentional help(bear in mind, beginning he's an acolyte so he cant see the darkness in the wizard(who has lived before maybe time of troubles) destroys the mythallar of shade or sakkors and brings the city down, however the wizard aids the prince in escaping from telamonts wrath, which causes the death of a few maybe one or two of shade princes and the rest of the storyline leads up to fleeing and hiding from shadovar while the shade prince trying to win the heart of the wizard and ilmaterite jealous trying to win him back to, the ending however is how the author wants it to be.
Considering these plot points this could easily be a trilogy. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 06:10:47
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Dennis -
What exactly do you disagree with? It's completely true that Shar favors Rivalen, and that Shar will not punish those who follow him. That does not undermine the fact that Shade has been absent from Faerūn for over one thousand years. In that time the worship of Shar has evolved and spread beyond Netheril. The portfolios I listed in my previous post and attributed to Shar were taken directly from the 2E source book Netheril Empire of Magic. Seeing as how the faith of Shar has changed and evolved in Faerūn since the fall of Netheril, I'd imagine that it has also changed and evolved among those who inhabited Thultanthar.
As a result, those outside the influence of the Netherese and Rivalen may view him as heretical, and conversely he may view those outside his influence as heretical. While I am unsure how it is portrayed in the novels; it would make perfect sense (and in line with what we've seen in the past with other clergies) for a Sharran Priestess in Thesk to not recognize or attribute any authority to Rivalen, and likewise for Rivalen to not recognize or attribute any authority to the priestess in Thesk. That is, of course, unless Shar herself intercedes and makes it clear that her faithful are to follow and serve Rivalen in all things (then follow that up by denying divine power to any who disobey).
Sharran cults are also organized based on cells, so it's quite possible that Rivalen could receive support from one cell and not another. That also complicates things. If you want to get into really complex territory, different Faerūnian cells may not agree about various particulars of the faith with other Faerūnian cells. (Now imagine being completely out of the loop for over one thousand years and the differences in outlook and belief that could occur.)
I think it is a mistake to view any of the religious cults in the Realms as completely uniform in all things. Certainly, they may share common goals and beliefs, but that does not mean that they all agree on how to best serve their deity or on the various particulars of the faith. Such differences are well established among other faiths in the cannon, and as such there is no reason to believe the same would not be true for Shar.
I think Ed loosely addressed this (at least in terms of non-clerical worshipers) in the question he answered recently. As such, I'll copy and paste the relevant parts here.
quote:
Hi, everyone. Cronje, from the very beginning, the Realms was (and is!) polytheistic. Every intelligent creature believed in ALL of the gods, goddesses, demigods, and various divine servitors (exarches, Chosen, et al), and ALMOST every intelligent creature worshipped MANY of the deities (the exceptions being fanatics, including priests and sometimes paladins dedicated to a single deity).
So your typical merchant sailor would worship Tymora (for good luck), Waukeen (for prosperous voyages), Talos (so as to keep storms at bay, and provide good winds), Valkur or Shaundakul (for safe navigation), and Umberlee (to keep the sea friendly, keep from being drowned or shipwrecked or attacked by sea monsters, etc.). Some offerings/prayers were positive (Tymora, be with me now!) and some were to mollify/turn aside the wrath of deities (please dont drown me, Umberlee!).
This applied to the entire Realms. All sentient races and individuals.
As Thauramarth correctly pointed out, most individuals in the Realms will logically have a patron deity, which is simply the deity that they pray most often to/pay most heed to the priestly dictates of, USUALLY as a result of their profession (Chauntea for farmers, Tempus for warriors, etc.). Thats NOT the same as saying Person X ONLY believes in, obeys, and worships their patron deity.
Now, from the outset, some designers/writers and some fans/gamers didnt understand this, or didnt want to (cleaving instead to theres only one god thinking), so some Realms canon reflects such an attitude.
When it applies to an individual character/creature, this approach is fine, and its perfectly okay to have a state religion for a country or city-state, if you prefer. The conflicts between various racial pantheons, and between deities (and their followers) are an integral part of the game; no one has to accept one set of beliefs as true and others as false.
However, to understand the entire tapestry of the Realms, as I created it at the outset and have gone on filling it in ever since, its important to accept that people IN THE REALMS know that there are lots of deities, that theyre ALL real, and that they fight among themselves but are all greater than mortals.
People in the Realms dont believe that one priest or priesthood is telling the truth and that all others are wrong - - and most people in the Realms, if they were told that, say, Landurl the Potter only worships Gond (or any particular deity), would think that Landurl was either crazy, or at least odd, or that Landurl must have had a personal vision from Gond thats making Landrul act in this strange way (thats the accepted wisdom for why someone is a priest: they got a person altar vision, or dream vision when sleeping, in which the deity spoke to them personally, requesting their service - - and they accepted). Worshipping all relevant deities is the accepted norm.
....
Now, PRIESTHOODS in the Realms DO tend to be exclusive. Dennis was right when he pointed out that One can't expect a priestess to worship both Shar and Selune at the same time.
However, one COULD expect that a lawless anarchist smuggler who makes night light boat runs between Westgate and Sembia, and is a woman wanting either to get pregnant or avoid pregnancy, might very well actively pray to both Shar (evil, overthrow of authority and lawkeeping, triumph over lawkeepers) and Selune (safe night navigation, control over menses) at the same time.
Some priesthoods (Helm, Tyr, Torm . . . and Silvanus/Eldath/Mieliiki) do tend to cooperate, and their clergy can often freely venerate more than one deity. Higher-level clerics tend not to, and often discourage other clergy from doing so, on very mortal (human nature) loyalty/power grounds.
I think the part I bolded is the most important, and the part I underlined there is the most relevant.
The Shades control Sembia, so let's take that as a good example. The people for over one thousand years have been completely polytheistic worshiping numerous deities as appropriate for their lot in life and local custom. If I am not mistaken the Shades outlawed all non-Sharran faiths.
Consider then, the rural Sembian farmer. He may be aware of what has happened. His local priest of Chauntea may have even been executed in front of him! Does this mean that he's suddenly going to do exactly what the Netherese desire? No, in the worst case scenario he likely continues to worship and offer prayers to multiple deities - especially Chauntea - in secret. He'd most certainly view the Netherese as "crazy" (to borrow a word from Ed).
Would they be offering prayers to Shar? I think so. Just to be on the safe side, they're likely offering extra prayers out of fear that they'd be punished for not doing so. Yet, at the same time, they'd almost certainly be fearful of what would happen if they stopped worshiping the other deities. The farmer would find himself in a difficult position: "If I refuse to pay homage to Shar, she may become angry and send her servants to kill me! Yet, if I refuse to pay homage to Chauntea she may refuse to bless my fields - my family and I could starve!"
As a result, I'd wager that the majority of Sembian's are making open displays of worshiping Shar, but continue to worship the rest of the deities privately.
Within the Sharran faith in Sembia itself, putting aside any differences in belief for a moment, it becomes difficult to believe that the top dogs are enthusiastic about now playing second fiddle to someone from returned Netheril. They may follow and obey ("or else"), but that does not mean they aren't resentful, angry, or aren't plotting and scheming against the usurping invaders.
Granted, all of this is based off my personal conjecture as I do not have the knowledge of the novels to back it up. I could very well be wrong, and I'm prepared to eat my words if proven so by canon. Otherwise, I'd standby my claims. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 06:42:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Now THERE'S a faith where it might be interesting to see what sort of marriage customs and contracts apply!! Malarites, hmmm......
I don't think Malarites would view a marriage as a contractual agreement. In fact, I'd say a Malarite priest wouldn't have any problem with faithful members breaking up and separating. If there are strong differences in opinion within a marriage, and a Malarite priest is consulted...
"If you believe you are right in this matter, then you shall go forth and slay <insert powerful beast> in the forest. If you survive then you will be proven correct. If you die, return in failure, or refuse to accept the challenge then you are proven wrong."
A marriage ceremony would likely be celebrated by a hunt of some sort, perhaps communal in nature. Naturally, a powerful and fitting beast would be selected. However, such a ceremony would likely only be for a marriage between a man and a woman, and it would have less to do with getting married than getting pregnant.
One exception to this I could imagine would be if the group was tribal in nature, and the man / woman entering into the relationship with the same sex individual is joining the tribe as a result. In that case, it is less about the relationship between the two individuals, and more about the new individual joining the tribe and the hunt. The hunt would be less of a welcome, though, and more of a test. The new comer would have to prove themselves; and the hunt may be communal or they may be forced to go on the hunt alone. Failure or poor performance in the hunt could result in the new comer being rejected.
However, as I said, the majority of "marriages" would be for the purpose of procreation. So a couple who seeks to have children would likely be required to go on a hunt. A powerful beast would be slain. Then the priest would likely instruct the mother to wrap the newborn in the hide of the slain beast, telling her that the spirit of the great predator that was slain would fuse with the spirit of her newborn child, making him a strong and capable hunter. Naturally, this would result in mothers and fathers seeking VERY powerful beasts to slay as they'd view it as beneficial to their child.
That's how I'd roll with it, anyway.  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 06:44:41
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Xar Zarath,
One problem: How in Faerun will he manage to destroy Shade's mythallar? Even the combined might of the Chosen wasn't able to accomplish that.
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Aldrick,
In the novels [at least those that I read where Sharrans have significant roles, except Mistress of the Night], I see nothing which indicates that Sharrans outside Shade view the Shadovar heretics, and vice-versa. In fact, in TW, Rivalen made other people [non-Sharrans] believe that the non-Shadovar Sharrans in Sembia were heretics because they sacrificed people in the altar---tortured and killed them---when in truth that's just one of their basic 'ceremonies.' Even the mad Elyril, a non-Shadovar Sharran, held Rivalen with respect. And you're right, Shar makes it clear that her faithful should follow, or at the very least, don't meddle with Rivalen, unless she explicitly says otherwise [which happened in TW, where she told Elyril to cast the Shadowstorm without Rivalen's knowledge]. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 07:11:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Aldrick,
In the novels [at least those that I read where Sharrans have significant roles, except Mistress of the Night], I see nothing which indicates that Sharrans outside Shade view the Shadovar heretics, and vice-versa. In fact, in TW, Rivalen made other people [non-Sharrans] believe that the non-Shadovar Sharrans in Sembia were heretics because they sacrificed people in the altar---tortured and killed them---when in truth that's just one of their basic 'ceremonies.' Even the mad Elyril, a non-Shadovar Sharran, held Rivalen with respect. And you're right, Shar makes it clear that her faithful should follow, or at the very least, don't meddle with Rivalen, unless she explicitly says otherwise [which happened in TW, where she told Elyril to cast the Shadowstorm without Rivalen's knowledge].
I hope I'm not misunderstanding, so correct me if I'm wrong...
In the Twilight War Trilogy Rivalen turned people against the Sembian Sharrans, by calling them heretics? If so, then I'm not sure where there is disagreement in anything I've written.
If Rivalen is working against non-Netherese Sharran cells, or believes that they actually are heretics, then I think it proves my point. It would mean that there are divides between Shadovar / Netherese Sharran (Rivalen's cult) and non-Shadovar / Netherese Sharren. Which would make a great deal of sense, for the reasons I discussed previously.
Even if Shar sanctioned Rivalen's actions (and we'd have no reason to believe that she didn't), it wouldn't make the divides any less real. Imagine a non-Sembian Sharran priestess viewing what Rivalen has done in Sembia. I can't imagine that they're overly enthusiastic about it, or about Rivalen.
This action, I'd argue, would be grounds for a full out schism in the Sharran faith. A schism that may only be held in check due to Shar making it clear to her faithful not to meddle or work against Rivalen. (Though one would imagine that after his actions in Sembia, every single Sharran has their eye on him, and is waiting for any opportunity they can find to cause him to lose favor in the eyes of their goddess. Thus, giving them the opportunity to kill him themselves.)
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think what you posted illustrates that the way the Netherese view and worship Shar is different than the way Faerūnian Sharran clergy have traditionally worshiped / viewed Shar. This puts these two groups at odds, perhaps held in check by Shar herself.
I think all of this supports my statements, unless I'm misunderstanding. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 07:41:07
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No. The non-Shadovar Sharrans were Rivalen's allies. He just wanted to convert the suspicious Sembians, or at the very least let them tolerate the existence of Shar's church, by pointing out that the sacrifices, which came in the form of tortured, unfortunate folks, were something only heretics would do, when in truth he deemed such offerings appropriate and necessary. Though he couldn't do it to the people of his city because their number is so small and because each servant is important to his father's ultimate goal of world domination.
No non-Shadovar Sharran would blame Rivalen for what happened to Sembia because it was not him who cast the Shadowstorm. His role in stopping the Shadowstorm was not only determined by his father, but by Shar's silence. Had Shar forbidden him to stop the Shadowstorm, he might have done so even if it would mean losing everything he spent centuries to establish. But he understood Shar's silence meant that annihilation of Toril would come, but not yet at that time. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 17 May 2011 07:49:56 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 07:59:39
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| -The novel Mistress of the Night highlighted in a very good way the differences between how Sharran cults operate vis-a-vis the rest of the general Sharran church, and while it didn't particularly highlight dogmatic differences, touched on them in how certain characters representing either side acted. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 08:55:15
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Dennis-
Thanks. I'm at a bit of a disadvantage as I'm not a novel reader, sticking primarily to source books and stuff posted here by Ed and the like.
That being said, I think this could be a very good question to be brought up to Ed. I simply find it difficult to envision that two separate groups, effectively cut off from each other for over a thousand years, would NOT have differences of opinion (perhaps even wildly differences of opinion) on certain aspects of the faith. I suppose one could hand wave things a bit and say Rivalen was guided by Shar so that the two groups wouldn't be wildly incompatible.
However, I do have bias against returned Netheril. I'm not a huge fan of bringing back dead empires, and I always felt Shar as their primary faith (to the exclusion of all other faiths) was silly. The reasons are evident in your post, Shar's end goals are not the end goals of the Netherese, and thus at some point the two sides shall become divided. Either Rivalen will have to side with the Empire, and help Shar or he'll side with the Empire against Shar. At which point he'd lose favor with Shar and the whole religious structure of the Empire collapses. (Note: This has nothing to do with Shar, she's one of my top three favorite deities in the Realms; I just think she's a bad fit in the way it's been implemented.)
But this is neither here nor there. I may put the question to Ed, but I'm still hoping I'll get a reply to my questions regarding orthodoxy vs orthopraxy, the amount of power (and to what degree) worshipers have over their deities, and whether or not ALL priests of a deity have divine spell casting abilities. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 10:39:04
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Aldrick,
Rivalen would defy neither Shar nor Telamont. He came up with a resolution to reconcile his duty as a priest with his responsibilities as a prince. He's a devoted servant of Shar, tested and proven. He is a true nihilist. When he saw the fate of Ephyras, a world that Shar consumed, he realized everything would embrace the void. But he believes that it should not happen now, not within a decade, or a century---not until the Reborn Netheril conquers Toril. In a way, he doesn't stop the Shadowstorm; he only delays it.
------
Back on gay marriage...
Telamont intends to rule his empire forever, so the issue of whether or not there remains an heir is out of the picture. Will he then be open-minded enough to allow his sons [or one of them] to engage in homosexual relationship with a "commoner," and eventually marry? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 17 May 2011 10:41:15 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 10:39:28
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Dennis to your question, im not sure, i mean thats up to the author, i mean, how many times have we read about characters like drizzt going against creatures much more powerful than him and somehow he survives, if it were in terms of game rules, yes he would be dead but novel wise maybe they'll find some way, a relic or artifact of some sort maybe the asmodean warlock, briefly possessed by the god of sin, which more powerful than mephistopheles, could not be stopped and somehow the godly might of the devil lord defeated or at least severly damaged the mythallar in such a way that it could not be repaired, mind you it does not have to be shade but it could be sakkors.
And hopefully, does paul s kemp intend to continue godborn trilogy, because there have been some conflicted views on this, i mean i like erevis and all that but hopefully his son will not be a cleric(cos i somehow just do not like them) and hope that he brings about shar's destruction, i mean some people know, that bitch is overdue for a slap in the face and a knife in the back, hope that somehow they bring velsharoon and mask back, becos i like necromancers and second mask is way better than the nightbitch |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 11:03:06
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Xar Zarath,
The author would have a tough job of making it convincing. The most powerful of the Chosen, Elminster and The Simbul, weren't able to join the fight. But the combined strength of the remaining Chosen should have been formidable enough. How can a lone priest achieve something not even Mystra's Chosen were able to? Considering how much Mephistopheles now hates the Tanthuls, I guess he might help the priest and strike a bargain---a boost in power. However, right after the events in RotA, the Most High has done something to his city that enables him to detect who or what comes in and out of Shade, so the priest, should he try to enter the city via mundane or magical means, will easily be spotted. Also, I think Telamont has learned a lesson from the Chosen's siege. He couldn't allow the same disaster to occur again. I can imagine him putting layers upon layers of protective enchantments on the mythallar, and an instant-detection spell linked to him, so that when the mythallar feels the brunt of any attack, the spell would instantly teleport him near it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 18:35:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Back on gay marriage...
Telamont intends to rule his empire forever, so the issue of whether or not there remains an heir is out of the picture. Will he then be open-minded enough to allow his sons [or one of them] to engage in homosexual relationship with a "commoner," and eventually marry?
-Theoretically, I don't see why not. I don't really envision marriages occurring, but I don't see why, if any of the princes of Shade were inclined to, he would stop a same-sex relationship. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 19:02:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Back on gay marriage...
Telamont intends to rule his empire forever, so the issue of whether or not there remains an heir is out of the picture. Will he then be open-minded enough to allow his sons [or one of them] to engage in homosexual relationship with a "commoner," and eventually marry?
I'm largely in agreement with Lord Karsus. However, this illustrates one of the problems I have with Shar holding the place she has in Netherese society. The whole notion of love itself is pointless from a nihilistic perspective, and even more so than the fact the relationship would be between two men - the very concept of love itself would be what would cause the tension.
In fact, even when it comes to lust or merely sensual pleasure... such things are pointless from a nihilistic perspective. So a relationship that provided no tangible benefit would likely be viewed (at best) as a pointless distraction. The faithful of Shar are not supposed to hope and are forbidden to strive to better their lot in life or to plan ahead except when directly overseen by the clergy of Shar.
That being said, I could see love / lust being used as leverage to inflict loss on one of the Princes. This could be used to bring them closer to Shar, helping to create a general atmosphere of hopelessness - leading to a more blind obedience to Shar.
However, I am not sure how things work in Netheril. It's very hard for me to imagine Sharran doctrine (as described in the source books) working for a group of people with Imperial ambitions. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 00:58:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
However, I am not sure how things work in Netheril. It's very hard for me to imagine Sharran doctrine (as described in the source books) working for a group of people with Imperial ambitions.
The more realms Shade conquers, the wider the reach of Shar's Church becomes. Sembia used to be anti-Sharran. But look at them now. This is the very reason Shar tolerates Telamont's ambition and their occasional conflict of interests [like the one regarding the Shadowstorm]. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 03:49:02
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Dennis -
I'm shifting the discussion slightly, since my opinion is that Shar makes little sense as the Netherese patron deity. I'll try and explain my reasoning as I address each of your points.
quote:
The more realms Shade conquers, the wider the reach of Shar's Church becomes.
The issue I take here is manifold. The main issue is that Shar's reach already extends throughout Faerūn. Her faithful and cults exist in every kingdom and nation. No, they aren't openly acknowledged or sanctioned. Yet, this is appropriate as the goddess of secrets. The faithful of Shar shouldn't appear in town with a marching band, and if they did they'd deserve the deaths they'd receive as a result.
To operate in the open is very much counter to the mystic of the Sharran cult. Midnight dealings, blackmail, espionage, secrets, skulking around in the dark, these are all tropes that embody the essence of Sharranism.
It's not that one way is right and the other wrong, it's that they're different. It also means there could be consequences involved.
Let's assume that Shar makes it clear to her faithful that the way the Netherese worship her is the correct way, and all other ways are incorrect. She should be worshiped and revered openly, her faithful should strive to obtain positions of power, and then proceed to suppress all other faiths - through pain of death, if necessary.
To do this she puts at risk her portfolio of secrets; at least in its current incarnation. It could become more narrowly defined, or she could be challenged by another deity and lose it entirely. If one examines Shar during the time of Netheril, it's clear that she has lost portfolios, and thus there is no reason to believe that she couldn't still lose them now.
It's not that one way is right and the other way is wrong; there is no right or wrong way. It's just a fundamental shift to what has come before.
quote:
Sembia used to be anti-Sharran. But look at them now.
This makes the assumption that more is better; that quantity is more important than quality. At best, she has gained more people paying lip service to her. However, reading over the quote from Ed in my previous post - people already pay a great deal of lip service to Shar. So she's just getting more of it now. She is already a Greater Deity, and easily one of the most powerful at that. As a result any boost in power she'd receive from additional worship would be negligible at best.
quote:
This is the very reason Shar tolerates Telamont's ambition and their occasional conflict of interests [like the one regarding the Shadowstorm].
This underscores the very core of my problem with Shar being the patron deity of the Netherese. At the core, we aren't dealing with an occasional conflict of interest. We're dealing with a fundamental divide that can never be bridged. Shar's ultimate goal is to destroy everything. That includes Telamont and his empire. Telamont knows that.
At some point along this journey, either Shar is going to have to change her end goal, or Telamont is going to have to accept it. Of course, he could attempt to abandon Shar, but abandoning Shar is easier said than done considering that he's weaving her into the very fabric of his empire. Both Shar and Telamont are insanely intelligent beings, and thus if I can foresee this so can they.
However, in the 4E Realms this becomes much easier now that Shar no longer has control over the Shadow Weave, and thus the arcanists of Shade are no longer beholden to her.
---
Much of the problem I have with Netheril and Shar being so clearly interwoven could have been solved easily. The issue here is that everyone knows Shar's ultimate end goal. Much of this could have been avoided had a few simple changes been made...
Telamont could have become convinced that he had ascended to some form of divinity when he became a Shadovar. As a result he could have forced the inhabitants of Thultanthar to worship him as befitting a god-king. Rivalen could have been his High Priest.
However, all of this would have been far from the truth. Only Rivalen, a chosen of Shar, would have understood that Shar was behind all of Telamont's power. With each proclamation Telamont made he would have brought the world closer and closer to its end.
When Thultanthar returned to Toril everything would have made sense; Telamont's ambition, the spread and conquest of the Empire. He and everyone else would believe that the Empire heralded a new age in Faerūn, but in truth it only signified the end of all things.
Everything could have been kept secret. Shar could have kept Rivalen appraised of what was going on as the enclave was on the Shadow Plane, and thus when they returned he could have easily connected with other Sharran cells to unite them. He could have leveraged them to cause chaos, strife, and turmoil in the nations and kingdoms in which they operated; making it easier for the Netherese to conquer them.
Each conquest of Netheril, each victory, would have brought the world one step closer to the brink.
IMO, this would have made sense. As it stands, the only way it works is as you've described it - Telamont and others who are aware of Shar's ultimate goal - are choosing to ignore it. While it could have been argued that they had little choice due to their arcane might being linked to the Shadow Weave; this excuse no longer holds in 4E FR as the Shadow Weave is no more.
It would make sense for Telamont to begin distancing himself and the Empire from Sharran worship. Perhaps, easing the restrictions on other faiths, all in the hope of ultimately and gradually undermining Shar's influence. However, to do such a thing at this point would clearly mark Telamont as an enemy and put him at odds with Rivalen... a conflict would become inevitable.
All of this ultimately leads to an important question I asked Ed: How much influence can a deities worshipers have over the deity? Look what happened with Lathander transforming into Amaunator. What happens if the bulk of the Netherese reject Shar's ultimate goal? What if Telamont understands that deities are somehow linked to their faithful, and he decides that his best hope of dealing with his empire's dependence on Shar is to change the way Shar is viewed, perceived, and worshiped? Could this, in turn, actually manifest a change in the world view (and ultimate end goal) of Shar herself? |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 03:51:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Wow first I have to say didn't know that a fr author would be taking stock of the topic but thanks thought for sharing opinion, (loved depths of madness, but why did you kill off Davoren?)
Oh, definitely. I find the discussion very interesting.[/quote]
As for the kind words, thanks . . . and did I? Did I really?
When I posted my earlier comment about not seeing a lot of "settled" relationships among fantasy heroes, that was not to imply that there shouldn't be, necessarily. I for one would LOVE to write any number of the stories being herein discussed, and I have quite a few of my own to offer as well . . . we'll see what happens.
As for explicitly depicting non-hetero/non-monogamous relationships in the Realms, yeah, WotC has had an issue with that. But I do see it as getting quite a bit better as time progresses. War of the Spider Queen gave us a fair bit of girl-on-girl action, as well as a LOT of what I would consider pseudo-romantic/erotic male/male tension (without the actual physical acts of a relationship). (EDIT: Also the ending of Return of the Archwizards, which ends up with one man and two womans. Polyamory in FR! Gasp!)
I myself have outed two characters as committed homosexual partners (albeit they were off-stage at the time) and had two women kiss (though only in a romantic way to one of them, not both) in FR fiction. Granted, the girl-on-girl thing is much more acceptable at the present time, but I think the perception of the fantasy audience shifts along with social perceptions. (Which I suspect is about as much as we want to get into that issue.)
I think WotC is taking small steps, and I hope to see that trend continue.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 18 May 2011 16:12:22 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 05:01:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think WotC is taking small steps, and I hope to see that trend continue.
Cheers
So do I.
It's all about the money. WotC wants to attract as many readers as possible. But most likely they are underestimating the maturity level of their readers. They don't want to take risks, even though they can control and limit the risks by, say, publishing just one novel; and the first run will be half of what is usual [10,000 or 5,000 copies]. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Gay marriage?
Topic Locked
