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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 02:22:55
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| It's not. It is what we call make use of your men according to their own expertise. Have evokers blast their enemies, conjurers summon demons to smash the opposing army, illusionists to trick and slay them, and abjurers to protect all their allies. Of the four, only the third happens pretty much rarely in novels. Why? Oh, why? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 16 Mar 2011 02:23:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 03:30:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's not. It is what we call make use of your men according to their own expertise. Have evokers blast their enemies, conjurers summon demons to smash the opposing army, illusionists to trick and slay them, and abjurers to protect all their allies. Of the four, only the third happens pretty much rarely in novels. Why? Oh, why?
I think it's a believability issue. I myself have never liked illusionists because I just can't see taking damage from or being scared to death by a magical version of a hologram. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 03:46:01
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In rough order of effectiveness, most to least:
Invoker — "Fireball! Fireball! ... I love overkill."
Mage — "Fireball! ... no survivors."
Transmuter — "Polymorph into Burning Orcs! Twice! ... or fireball!"
Conjurer — "One or two Fire Elementals should keep those orcs busy. Fireball would also work."
Enchanter — "The orcs are now our allies ... for a little while."
Necromancer — "Burned orc corpses will still serve me well enough."
Diviner — "I saw images of orcs in yesterday's campfire, we should be prepared and perhaps try to avoid them."
Abjurer — "I'm completely immune to fire and you can be too! Yay!"
Illusionist — "The stupid orcs think that was a fireball ... except for those three big angry ones who disbelieved. Move quickly and try to slit the throats of all the others before they realize they're completely unharmed!"
Simple facts:
Characters in fantasy novels typically employ magic in combat situations. The sorts of (mid- and high-level) opponents they're expected to face are generally sufficiently competent to resist and save against such stuff. Gamers tend to dislike things which allow saving throws to negate/resist/reduce, they'd rather just roll a bunch of damage dice every round until somebody falls down. Many D&D writers are also gamers, and in any event they know much of their audience consists of gamers who will dissect and scrutinize the underlying "mechanics" of their stories.
Illusion spells are, by their very nature, very vaguely described in the rules. The spell descriptors are really more like guidelines than rules and their ultimate effectiveness rests squarely upon the DM. No matter how illusions are described in the novels they'll end up being criticized for inconsistency and game-breaking, which doesn't encourage authors to make heavy use of them.
There's also something vaguely unheroic about cowering (or attacking from) behind cover of an illusionary wall or invisibility spell.
Why use magic to create fake things when it can create substantial ones? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Mar 2011 04:48:25 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 05:38:45
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Spare me the lecture on games. I don't play, nor am I interested. In the OP, I noted NOVELS, not games. I'm a Drayar Manzughar, not a Dungeon Master.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Why use magic to create fake things when it can create substantial ones?
Because there are many ways to kill a chicken; one may prove better than the other, or equally good. And don't forget that power level plays a very significant role. An illusionist of Mythrellen's caliber could easily crush Nevron's lowliest apprentice.
Remember, too, that spellcraft is, as the name itself suggests, a craft. You use it not just for practical purposes, but for art and creativity as well. I favor variety in battles. If everyone's blasting each other, I might as well do yoga and be bored to death. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 18:25:22
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| I perceive the FR novels as being inextricably entwined with the D&D game, much as Star Trek or Star Wars novels (which I'll admit I've never read) must strictly adhere to the "canon" of their related shows and movies. Attempting to separate the products diminishes them all ... and the reality is that the fandom of the novels and the game (and the shows, movies, etc) is largely composed of a single overlapping group. If FR writers do not make some effort to keep all the fans happy they will, over time, lose some fans, ie: lose long-term revenue. Fans are fickle creatures, unswervingly loyal collectors who must get their grubby hands on every related product they can ... until the day comes that they feel betrayed and angrily reject all further product releases. This is the main reason I think FR writers tend to avoid emphasis on illusion magics; they're just too poorly defined and perceived as too "weak" and "useless" to be popular. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Mar 2011 18:31:10 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 18:30:19
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I'm inclined to agree that it is harder to "write" illusion for some reason. Even at its basic, an illusion would require more word count than other magic perhaps...just to instill a sense of the subtleness of the spell.
However, as for game mechanics, Illusion is the MOST adaptable magic in the game. The reason you memorize an illusion instead of an extra fireball is to give you a resource that can apply to many different situations.
Illusions give you the ability to do things like:
Create a hiding place for the whole party
Distraction (rival giant encroaching on a giants lair)
Comfort for a dying comrade (yep, created an illusion of their home and family for someone who was dying of Drow Poison after our cleric was already dead)
Twisting the Mind of an enemy so that they either die or do what you want them to
Controlling the Field of Battle with obstacles: Illusionary walls, pits, fires and etc...
Illusion is about manipulation, not force...Tzu would have LOVED Illusion magic! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 02:42:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
This is the main reason I think FR writers tend to avoid emphasis on illusion magics; they're just too poorly defined and perceived as too "weak" and "useless" to be popular.
Redefining them is the key.
Angels were hardly used as main characters in novels decades ago. Yet lately we see a plethora of them. There must have been some redefining happening along the way. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 02:50:26
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| lol, novels cannot benefit from CGI eye-candy. Angels are sexy, illusions can be too ... but not through printed media alone. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 06:59:53
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I never liked angels myself. But ever since I conceptualized a perfect villain for my new trilogy, I've been captivated by the idea of an archangel whose deeds alter faiths and systems of magic in two worlds. But I digress...I'm bringing the query of this OP over to someone I couldn't believe I forgot asking... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 17:24:36
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It seems to me that illusion is a potentially devastating weapon, and I've tried to portray it as such.
On the other hand, in a universe where setting a guy on fire for real is no more difficult that lighting him up with illusory flames that he may or may not believe in, it's fairly obvious which is the better tactic.
In my stuff, Mythrellan didn't die offstage because I thought the character was a feeble and inconsequential chump. It happened to serve a storytelling purpose, In my trilogy, I couldn't show every event in the Thayan civil war. I showed the start of it, then skipped ten years to show the end. But I didn't want the reader to feel like nothing much happened during the ten-year jump. I wanted to convey the idea that there'd been furious fighting and significant developments during that time. Having Mythrellan die during that period helped to accomplish this, or at least I hope it did. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 17:45:20
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| I stand corrected, MM. I primarily meant 2E rules. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 22:22:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
In my stuff, Mythrellan didn't die offstage because I thought the character was a feeble and inconsequential chump. It happened to serve a storytelling purpose.
Mythrellan, being the most powerful illusionist, represented the rest of the wizards in her school. So I thought that not showing her death, merely saying it in passing, manifests the author's idea that illusionists are weak and useless. And added to this is Dmitra's death in the hands of a mere monk. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 01 Nov 2011 17:11:43 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 17:23:51
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On the other hand, in my own cosmological theories, everything is an illusion - every single thing in existence was thought-up by some being somewhere, and the older that 'illusion' is, the more substantial it becomes, because now so many others reinforce it with their own belief.
Given that premise (which is the basis of nearly ALL religion - someone had to 'create' the world), illusionists are just the limited, mortal variant of divine beings; whose Realms, BTW, are based on their own perceptions, and cease to exist the moment the mind of the deity ceases to... isn't that an illusion by definition? "The illusion fails once the caster stops concentrating on it"? Divine Realms (re: Illusions) can only exist so long as they are 'maintained' by the mind of a god (power).
Just some food for thought. I am not fond of Illusionists - and most especially gnomes - but I am playing devil's advocate. Depending upon how you look at things, illusionists could be the most powerful mages, because they bypass all the usual trappings and go right for the core essence of magic - that all magic is based upon belief in it.
Which means magic itself is related to the divine, and may even be the same thing on some level. Whats the difference between you believing you can cast a spell, or you believing some god gave it to you? Either way, the magic still works, because you believe it will. Perhaps this is how Genie magic works? Wishes might just be nigh-impossible-to-disbelieve illusions.
And like I said, I am just arguing a point - these are not necessarily my views (in-game and out). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2011 17:28:38 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 17:42:56
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Dmitra's flying horse is a wonder. It was an illusion, one of her finest, but it was real---Malark was able to ride it and go to places.
You may be right, MT. Illusionists make you believe what's real, and that's where their true powers lie. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 17:49:25
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In Pool of Twilight, there was an awakened (self-aware) Illusion as one of the main characters. She was created by a mad (evil) Elven Archmage who was exiled to a deserted island off the northern coast of Evermeet by Amluiral (sp?).
The fact that she could operate independently, and even learn magic, is proof that there is much more to this illusion-IS-reality theory. Once she believed she was real, she maintained her own existence (and don't we all?)
And yeah, she reminds me a lot of The Doctor in ST:Voyager, but that' okay; in another thread I said how characters can easily be transplanted to other settings, so that's just more proof for my other argument.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 18:03:02
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Intriguing. Perhaps that illusionist combined the arts of crafting Illusion and constructs? The illusion might have involved some artificial or quasi- intelligence. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 18:06:30
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It wasn't planned, IIRC. He merely created the most elaborate (realistic) illusion possible, and being an elven archmage, that was pretty impresive. She became self-aware mostly due to her very long existance (most illusions are temporary, but she was left 'on' all the time).
Like I said, VERY similar to Star Trek's Doctor.
Edit: And I just realized this could possibly be the result of a 'walk-in" - a phenomena I only recently discovered and am including in my universal picture (cosmological mechanics). It could just be some stray soul managed to somehow 'possess' the illusion. Now I have to wonder if the illusion weighed 21 grams after it's awakening. <smirk> |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2011 18:14:03 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 18:18:17
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That's possible. Another possibility is that the archmage [who is he, anyway?] inadvertently [or deliberately] added a different property to the spell that enabled it to "attract" wandering or lost souls. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 19:12:04
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I no longer own the book (it burned with everything else), but I believe I sent the details of that particular scene to lord Karsus, so if he is around (or has the power to hear his name mentioned), he should be able to provide the info.
Another possibility I thought of while posting that last part is that the soul was that of a living Elven lass that was trapped after the archmage did whatever nefarious thing he did to be exiled. Elves are known for using gems that can capture memories (and souls - remember Bruennor's Grand-pappy?), so I can picture this 'bad guy' having at least one captured eleven soul lying around, that may have figured-out a way out by bonding with the illusion.
HOWEVER, she had no memory of any past life before she 'awakened' (which doesn't mean it isn't still possible). As far as she knew, she 'came to life' after a long time being an active (and very complex) illusion. We also have another Star Trek precedent - Mr. Moriarty was a character on the Holodeck that 'came alive' when Data accidentally added a layer of complexity to it's program. The Hunter-race also created self-aware holograms accidentally in ST: Voyager, by forcing them to remember each of their incarnations.
In each instance, it was the longevity of the illusion that gave it that 'spark'. Since both holograms and illusions are generated by complex patterns of energy, there may be a scientific basis we can fall back on - the same theory that says that suns and other bodies of active energy may be sentient.
When something is granted sentience magically, be it an artifact or creature, I get the idea that the mage (or priest/druid, etc) is actually imbibing his creation with a bit of his own life-energy, which acts like a 'seed' for the awareness to grow. I do not think that is the case with illusions though - there is no evidence of anything like that, and certainly not with that character (who despised her creator). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2011 19:13:37 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2011 : 21:40:04
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Or he might have used an artifact similar to Soulcatcher (Chronicles of the Necromancer, Gail Z. Martin), and "plucked" one from the collection of trapped souls and enmeshed it with powerful illusion to make it corporeal.
It’s also possible that the illusion had been amplified by the mythal itself, and thus the awakened sentience can only continue to exist within the reach of the mythal. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 02 Nov 2011 04:57:50 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 12:25:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Or he might have used an artifact similar to Soulcatcher (Chronicles of the Necromancer, Gail Z. Martin), and "plucked" one from the collection of trapped souls and enmeshed it with powerful illusion to make it corporeal.
It’s also possible that the illusion had been amplified by the mythal itself, and thus the awakened sentience can only continue to exist within the reach of the mythal.
How are Gail Martin's books? I own the first one but have yet to read it |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2011 : 14:42:35
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Or he might have used an artifact similar to Soulcatcher (Chronicles of the Necromancer, Gail Z. Martin), and "plucked" one from the collection of trapped souls and enmeshed it with powerful illusion to make it corporeal.
It’s also possible that the illusion had been amplified by the mythal itself, and thus the awakened sentience can only continue to exist within the reach of the mythal.
How are Gail Martin's books? I own the first one but have yet to read it.
Typical fantasy, but her characters are very likable. The necromancy in her world is leaning towards neutral and good. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 08:53:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On the other hand, in my own cosmological theories, everything is an illusion - every single thing in existence was thought-up by some being somewhere, and the older that 'illusion' is, the more substantial it becomes, because now so many others reinforce it with their own belief.
That is just one belief, you could say that for every school of magic, e.g. everything is someone's conjuration, or necromancy (that's what the Dustmen believe). |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 13:45:28
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Elena, a mage from David Hair's Mage's Blood, Book 1 of The Moontide Quartet, once proved how illusion, paired with a clever mind, could help slay even a greater foe (Samir). Below is a scene from page 76 of the said novel (and needless to say, a spoiler).
quote:
He smashed open the nursery door. Time to finish this. He let the first rush of smoke pour into the nursery and held his shields ready, but nothing came at him. She was quick, yes, but she had no firepower, and she was running out of places to hide. Somewhere in the dark he heard Lorenzo di Kestria gasping in pain and he grinned widely. That was the great thing about fire – it didn’t just damage, it also left mindscrambling pain, the sort that made master torturers wet with envy. The sort of pain he was going to visit on that prunefaced Anborn bitch before he started on the children...
The smoke rose to the high beams of the nursery, revealing Elena standing before him, between two mirrors, a dagger held in her right hand. She jabbed her left at him and an impotent blue gnosis-bolt dissipated unfelt against his shields. She looked ragged; she must be at the end of her tether.
He smiled, raised his hand and gave her everything he had, crying out in utter bliss as he made the air throb with gushing fire so hot the flames were translucent, warping his vision as they washed over her, through her, and billowed unobstructed to blast the far wall.
She reappeared, right where she had been, twirling two thin blades. Untouched. How? He sensed someone behind him, but too late: two numbing blows struck beneath his armpits and jolted through him. There was a metallic grinding noise as the blades rasped against each other, somewhere deep in his chest. He stared, bewildered, as the Elena standing before him winked out.
Numbness flooded through him, and when he reached for his power there was just a void. He tried to speak, but his legs gave way and he felt his own heart stop.
'I'm not left-handed. You should have noticed that,' she whispered in his ear.
Rukka! Mirrors... Illusion...
The floor pitched up to meet him.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 10 Jan 2013 14:16:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 14:12:04
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| But it wasn't the illusion that killed the foe, it just distracted him... Granted, it still showed the utility of illusions in combat, but it's not accurate to say its what slew the bad guy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 14:22:53
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Aye, and I edited it. She's not what Torilians could call an Illusionist, as the system of magic in that setting is a bit different from the Realms'. Still, illusion is one of her fortes. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 14:42:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
There are many ways illusionists can be very useful in combat, yet we rarely see them being utilized in FR novels. Outside FR though, illusionists are given enough importance. To name a few, there’s Durzo Blint from Weeks’s The Night Angels trilogy, Laromendis from Feist’s The Demonwar Saga, and Jane from Meyer’s The Twilight Saga. Laromendis created monstrous illusions to distract the hoards of demons who came to invade their planet, while his fellow taredhel spellcasters blasted the demons. Jane had no equal; she could inflict illusory pain to anyone, save perhaps her twin brother, who can numb any target, including himself. In fact, had she had the slightest inclination, she could have replaced Aro.
In the Realms, the best examples we have are the Zulkirs of Illusion and their lackeys, the Halruaan illusionists who vanished after the SP, and a few other illusionist archmages who are in hiding. In the Haunted Lands trilogy, it didn’t really help that the wizards from the School of Illusion were only used to create that spell of concealment on the entire army as they marched to face Tam’s legions. There’s one time when Jhesri and few wizards created illusory images of the zulkirs, which was helpful in a few heartbeats as the opposing army felt fear and hesitated to advance…But then there’s still so much more the illusionists could have done. In the battle at the Keep of Sorrows, for instance, the Red Wizards from the school of Illusion could have provided sufficient distraction---illusory monsters, demons, blinding light, or stomach-wrenching putridity---giving the evokers a second or two to blast their enemies to pieces. Or, given that their spells are hardly effective against undead, the illusionists could have killed scores of their “live” foes by creating illusion of drowning, where they would simply stop breathing.
Why, then, do we rarely see illusionists in the novels?
On this topic, I'd love to see a story based around the most fervent illusionists in the realm. The Nimbraii followers of Leira who were shifted over to the feywild when the spellplague hit  . Of course, they didn't know that their island (which is filled with fey beings and animals, such as the many pegasi herds) was similar to Evermeet and had been pulled over during the earlier Sundering..... primarily because the Elves hadn't realized they'd pulled it over either. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 15:06:57
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Indeed it would be great to see the Nimbrese priests of Leira survive. Though instead of the feywild, I'd rather have them shifted to the Demiplane of Nightmares. Instead of breaking their minds and losing their sanity during their ordeals in that plane, they came through toughened, and more powerful. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 17:01:43
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4e handled Illusionists better then previous,editions. Illusions were usually attacks against will and it hit aka you believed or it didn't and you missed, no double chance to dodge the attack aka disbieve and then normal defence.
4e had Wizards of the Mage build of the Illusion school and of the Nethermancer school. Nethermancers were basically those that in 3e terms specialized in the shadow subschool of the Illusion school, with the edition that they drew on the Shadow power source as well as the arcane. Could create a,powerful semipermant Shadow Creature to serve you. My favourite type of 4e wizard was the Nethermancer. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 17:59:26
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| Agreed, the 4E game mechanic is better, though not perfect. It basically shifts the "realism" of the illusion onto the caster instead of the target, basically analogous to a "combat" mechanic resolving an attack vs some kind of "armor class". This can be problematic when affecting multiple targets who have dissimilar susceptibilities to the same illusion ... but it's still a better approach than the default pre-4E illusion rules. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Topic |
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Illusionists: Unappreciated?
