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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 23:14:04
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Good evening fellow scribes...
I was wondering if anyone knew of a comprehensive list of goods and services and the pricing of these? I have looked in Arms & Equipment Guide, but these prises do not seem to be... "realistic". So I was wondering if by any chance anyone knew of a better source?
Thanks
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 02:57:38
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| Aurora's Whole Realms catalogue would be my suggestion. It's what I use. I've no standard of reasonable pricing, though. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 03:05:37
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| D&D never had realistic pricing. In some ways it is told off is that the price list is what PCs are charged, locals and NPCs pay other prices. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 04 Mar 2014 03:29:09 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 05:03:24
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| There is always a problem with a standard price in that it depends what region and time you are playing. D&D never went that much for scale of economy. Hârn World did try something like that, but their numbers do not work either. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 09:16:30
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Thanks...
I have just quickly looked through it (Aurora's catalogue), but the prices there strikes me as very very expensive as well.
Durable meats per lbs., ranges from 1 gp to 100 gp... meaning that no commoner would ever buy this.
Also... flour, wheat 3gp/lbs.! 
But this makes no sense, when bread are cheaper… So every baker loses a lot of money each time they bake something=?
I think the pricing is way off on a lot of things. I don’t know how much people make in general, but generally it seems that people would be struggling to survive with these insane prices. Especially when PHB says that a day’s labor for an untrained commoner is 1 sp, meaning 3 gold per month/moon. Meaning they just never eat bread, meat, vegetables or cheese... Porridge for them, morning, noon and night made from dirt and wild plants they pick up after a 12 hour shift at the local coal mine.
I think that if all the prices got divided by 3-5 it would represent something where actual commoners could live. What do you guys think about that?
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 10:04:04
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I've never been able to find a good, comprehensive economic system for DnD. I remember someone telling me that one of the GURPS sourcebooks had a good system in it but I don't know which one. I'll try to find it though.
GURPS Low-Tech Companion 3: Daily Life and Economy (for Tech Levels 0 through 4). I can't speak as to the realism of this work though. Also, I don't think it brings magic into the equation either (which I think would have an enormous impact on economics).
I've looked into this subject before and have never found a good price list. Kind of strange when you think about all of the work people put into their game systems...you would think someone with a decent understanding of economics and at least some intuitive idea of the effect of magic on the economy would have surfaced by now. I think most people just go with it and ignore the inconsistencies (such as the fact that a 3lb. wooden longbow cost 75gp vs. a 4lb. steel longsword costing only 15gp in 3e). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 04 Mar 2014 10:14:01 |
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Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 11:12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I've never been able to find a good, comprehensive economic system for DnD. I remember someone telling me that one of the GURPS sourcebooks had a good system in it but I don't know which one. I'll try to find it though.
GURPS Low-Tech Companion 3: Daily Life and Economy (for Tech Levels 0 through 4). I can't speak as to the realism of this work though. Also, I don't think it brings magic into the equation either (which I think would have an enormous impact on economics).
I've looked into this subject before and have never found a good price list. Kind of strange when you think about all of the work people put into their game systems...you would think someone with a decent understanding of economics and at least some intuitive idea of the effect of magic on the economy would have surfaced by now. I think most people just go with it and ignore the inconsistencies (such as the fact that a 3lb. wooden longbow cost 75gp vs. a 4lb. steel longsword costing only 15gp in 3e).
I 100% agree on this. Especially part with swords. It is difficult to make a sword. Because of it it was common for knights in RW to use mace's and axes and such againts enemy footsoldiers and archers. Swords were only used againts another knight with sword. All of that was because of swords price and fear of breaking it.
Also i think price of flour and such is rather irrelevant in typical campaing. And it has been discussed many times in this forum. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 11:46:26
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Well it might not be relevant for 99.9% of campaigns but it is for ours. We are trying to calculate how much troops cost per day, and by this calculate how many wogons of food a occupying force cost to have deployed in other countries. So when having 1000 men deployed in the north how much does that cost per month. And how many wagons of supplies do they need.
We reached this:
1 man eats 2 lbs of food per day, of different things. Bread, cheese, meat, vegetables.
1 horse eats 10 lbs of feed.
1 wagon has 2 ton capacity (4444 lbs minus two drivers minus their food minus horse food per day. A wagon "drives" 16 miles per day. So for each day of travel reduce the amount of supplies by 24 lbs.
We reaches that deplying troops 750 miles away cost 27 gp per week per man. The price will go up the farther away you were to deploy.
But 27gp per week is 3.8gp per day. That is waaaaaay off. Compared to the living standard of commoners and the likes it should be more like 1 sp per day.
So somthing is off... |
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Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 13:08:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well it might not be relevant for 99.9% of campaigns but it is for ours. We are trying to calculate how much troops cost per day, and by this calculate how many wogons of food a occupying force cost to have deployed in other countries. So when having 1000 men deployed in the north how much does that cost per month. And how many wagons of supplies do they need.
We reached this:
1 man eats 2 lbs of food per day, of different things. Bread, cheese, meat, vegetables.
1 horse eats 10 lbs of feed.
1 wagon has 2 ton capacity (4444 lbs minus two drivers minus their food minus horse food per day. A wagon "drives" 16 miles per day. So for each day of travel reduce the amount of supplies by 24 lbs.
We reaches that deplying troops 750 miles away cost 27 gp per week per man. The price will go up the farther away you were to deploy.
But 27gp per week is 3.8gp per day. That is waaaaaay off. Compared to the living standard of commoners and the likes it should be more like 1 sp per day.
So somthing is off...
As amount of food goes, your calculations are way too small. I would suggest you to read wikipedia article on "medieval cuisine". It was quite eye opener for me. One man would eat like 6pounds of food per day given heavy levels of activity. And also keep in mind that FR people are generally much bigger than RW people in middleages, when average height was like 5'3feet or something. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 13:32:30
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There's a few things to consider.
1- A commoner usually makes 1sp a day in *money*. He may be producing or bartering for his food.
2- Driving food 750 miles away to feed an army *should* be a lot more expensive than the same people buying it at the local farmer or market stand. For a large trip like this, the horses pulling the wagons really do tend to make a big dent on the supplies, for example, if there is no adequate forage. Not entirely sure how you got your numbers, but it seems you took this into account, which makes sense, and so do high prices.
3- You seem to be supposing your army will be entirely supplied by their home nation. That's usually not true (though it may be in your case). In friendly territory, the army can ask for food or buy it local. In enemy territory, they'll just take it wherever it's available. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 17:19:20
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Another thing to consider: places like Aurora's and other "adventurer mart" businesses typically have inflated pricing to take advantage of adventurers with pockets full of coin. If players take the time to visit local farmers or even fruit and vegetable stands at a "farmer's market" then prices should be dramatically lowered. Most farmers, and even city-based commoner food markets, likely operate on barter or at least have local resident prices.
Any good merchant, particularly an adventurer mart like Aurora's, is going to significantly inflate prices to gouge adventurers.
You could also think of it this way: if I regularly go to my local, modern farmer's market on Saturdays in my home city, I can cook a family meal for four that costs about $7.50 in U.S. dollars. But if I go to a fancy four-star hotel restaurant, that same meal for four people can cost about $80.00. Perhaps significantly more if you include alcoholic beverages - upwards of $120.00, depending on the alcohol.
Bargain hunting, and bartering at local prices, can also be an interesting opportunity for encouraging roleplaying.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 19:27:57
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Well in 3.5 D&D one only needs 1 pound of food a day and can never stave to death besides.
Logistics of moving an army is far more involved then the standard list prices. If you want I can try to offer a few ideas. Duke Kentinal has a standing army of 10,000 and has sent troops out to assist other realms in which I did some calculations for. Including foraging (buying , hunting or stealing food enroute on the march.). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 20:05:05
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| Never start to considder the price of goods in D&D in terms of realism. It will make your brain hurt or worse. Functioning economics in D&D just don't exist, nor make sense. Similarly the rules for making money off of the Profession Skill. If you really want something that works and makes sense you'll have to make it yourself. I've tried it on a few occassions, but I've given up before being anywhere near finished. I did once make a more "realistic" bargaining system for buying and selling stuff for a merchant campaign we played though. Ended up working fairly well. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 21:48:22
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I was getting to basically the same conclusions as ll of you.
Personally for the simple ease of things I think I'm going to divide prices by 3. It should be more realistically, also when considering the huge quantities we would need for the troops, some discount should be had.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 22:15:14
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An army on the March often takes walking food with them, not all needs on be on the wagon, some of the food can be pulling the wagon.
Depending on terrain the cost of 5 sp per day per troop would likely be enough. If the troops feel underfeed they can steal , hurt or raid for more food. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 00:55:19
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| I wonder if Ed ever worked this issue out in his home Realms... |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 01:21:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I wonder if Ed ever worked this issue out in his home Realms...
Well it certainly can not hurt to ask. As I understand it Ed started writing for TSR under 1st Edition rules and that edition clearly made an effort to keep PCs poor and there was discussion about realm management, taxes and costs. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 16:16:45
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| Placed a query to Ed about this...crossing fingers that the busy man (or THO) will be able to provide some insight. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 16:54:21
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I've taken a different tack from this issue and it seems to be working very well for our group.
Instead of worrying about "realism" and "exchange rates" I moved to a more "antiquated" system built on basic economics 101 - Supply and Demand. If you're wanting a glass of Triple Shroom Sherry to toast your latest victory and happen to be in a campaign in or near Cormanthor, the price might be very low. However, if the popular drink wherever you are is not Triple Shroom Sherry and any can even be had, the price is likely to be more expensive if out outrageous.
From a DM's viewpoint, this also allows me a secondary path to control/correct "Treasure Creep". An example of a practical method of doing so is the hiring of retainers. When PC's are relatively unknown, they may be able to hire a retainer for a small monthly wage. Once, however, their fame becomes wide-spread, applicants know they can afford to pay a better wage and will be less willing to accept a small wage because the tales of their exploits routinely show the entire party to be in danger. More risk, more pay.
Coincidentally, this has led to an unintended but beneficial consequence. PC's have self-induced many entertaining side quests as want to acquire a certain "thing" and may travel far and wide in order to do so at a price they can afford - all the while finding more adventure along the way.
Two cents from someone who's been gone a long while.
Good Hunting!
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"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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Kusghuul
Acolyte
Norway
33 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 18:13:24
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| Ok, but how does one accurately convert the disparate prices in the PHB. Converting to the silver standard is great, but it still doesn't give us an accurate cost for a longbow (75gp or sp if you like) vs. a longsword (15gp/sp). One is made of wood and fairly easily made while the other is made of (more valuable) metal and harder to manufacture. The prices should be reversed at the very least...but then we still have issues with other weapons, armor, and equipment. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 18:27:45
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Do you mean the miserable failure of fiat currency worldwide means we cannot perceive a system that's actually more solid as realistic? I can actually see some sense on that. 
But seriously, silver standard or not, most of the D&D economy is just inconsistent with itself. And one would assume some consistency could be achieved either with or without a silver/gold standard, since there are real-world examples of both - not sure what point you are trying to make.
As for price conversions, you usually don't do it like that. As I suggested, take the most important elements of the economy for your setting's feel, and extrapolate from there (you probably won't get a perfect economic model, but hey, economists can't do that in the real world either). There's no reason a longbow needs to cost 750 grams of gold, it's arbitrary. It could make sense, or it could not, and that depends on a lot of things that can only be taken as a context. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 05 Mar 2014 18:31:16 |
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Kusghuul
Acolyte
Norway
33 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 19:04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Ok, but how does one accurately convert the disparate prices in the PHB. Converting to the silver standard is great, but it still doesn't give us an accurate cost for a longbow (75gp or sp if you like) vs. a longsword (15gp/sp). One is made of wood and fairly easily made while the other is made of (more valuable) metal and harder to manufacture. The prices should be reversed at the very least...but then we still have issues with other weapons, armor, and equipment.
Bows were actually pretty difficult to make, at least longbows. Nevermind that the material that was generally used (yew) was toxic to humans. But yeah, I'm not a fan of just converting it to silver, but it's an idea, one that the Conan D20 setting rolled with, to give gold a bit of allure.
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Do you mean the miserable failure of fiat currency worldwide means we cannot perceive a system that's actually more solid as realistic? I can actually see some sense on that.
That's an economic issue that most economic schools will never agree with each other on, but I believe most disagree on price fixing (bar maybe Marxist-derived schools). My point is e that gold in Faerun is EXTREMELY available or they've gone for token fiat currency, where there is some intrinsic value (therefore gold piece instead of today's copper coins whose face value is lower than the scrap metal value), but the value of the coin is mainly backed by the arms of the different states, as coin debasement is one of the most common things in war, as it seems to be required for wartime expenditure. And war is something Faerun has a lot of.
Edit - Found this: http://www.archerylibrary.com/books/badminton/docs/chapter08/chapter8_1.html
At least gives you a place to start with regards to the price of a bow;p |
Edited by - Kusghuul on 05 Mar 2014 19:10:29 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 20:14:41
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The CODA System (used for the last incarnation of the Middle Earth setting) priced equipment based on how much damage it caused or protection it bestowed. Of course, the same can be said of many of the weapons and armor used in DnD. It also uses the silver standard and provides more logical costs for other goods/services. But it's hard to compare the two systems because many of the materials and types of equipment available in DnD aren't available in Middle Earth. For instance, only chain mail is provided in the Core book and adamantine does not exist there...let alone a suit of adamant full plate.
Comparing two of the links you provided above...a 'cheap' sword cost 6d whereas a yew longbow cost 12d (non-painted) as of the 1340s. So, if the standard DnD sword is considered 'average' (as opposed to 'cheap' which I interpret as sub-standard) then the average bow should not cost more than 30gp (or silver if you used that standard...which I plan too).
Mind you, I'm looking for a perfect system...just something with more logic and consistency. I can extrapolate costs based on supply/demand for myself in my homebrew (assuming I want to get that detailed). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 20:17:31
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By the way, I only use the bow/sword comparison because it's just a glaringly obvious discrepancy. Now I have a question...how realistic is the 1/100 ratio? Meaning...
100 copper=1 silver
100 silver=1 gold
100 gold=1 platinum |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Kusghuul
Acolyte
Norway
33 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 22:16:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
The CODA System (used for the last incarnation of the Middle Earth setting) priced equipment based on how much damage it caused or protection it bestowed. Of course, the same can be said of many of the weapons and armor used in DnD. It also uses the silver standard and provides more logical costs for other goods/services. But it's hard to compare the two systems because many of the materials and types of equipment available in DnD aren't available in Middle Earth. For instance, only chain mail is provided in the Core book and adamantine does not exist there...let alone a suit of adamant full plate.
Comparing two of the links you provided above...a 'cheap' sword cost 6d whereas a yew longbow cost 12d (non-painted) as of the 1340s. So, if the standard DnD sword is considered 'average' (as opposed to 'cheap' which I interpret as sub-standard) then the average bow should not cost more than 30gp (or silver if you used that standard...which I plan too).
Mind you, I'm looking for a perfect system...just something with more logic and consistency. I can extrapolate costs based on supply/demand for myself in my homebrew (assuming I want to get that detailed).
Before translating it into gold pieces, you have to remember how much silver and gold are in each coin. As detailed below, the Romans sliced their coins (literally), and even reduced the % of precious metal from 95% to 73% (that's a lot of extra coins the State can spend on troops, circuses to entertain the masses, and food to buy votes).
Also, weapons were not balanced in price based on their utility - it was mostly supply and demand, which of course utility played a role in. As all values are subjective, prices would increase depending on anything from the quality of iron, quality of work, utility, scarcity etc.
Think of a full suit of mail. Of course it would provide the best possible protection, but it was also labour intensive and required a lot of material and expertise - which may outweigh its utility on a large scale. HDue to the price it was simply not feasible to have more than your richest knights equipped in such a manner. And that didn't even always ensure victory - take much-cited Agincourt, where an army of outnumbered English longbowmen spanked the French knights.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
By the way, I only use the bow/sword comparison because it's just a glaringly obvious discrepancy. Now I have a question...how realistic is the 1/100 ratio? Meaning...
100 copper=1 silver
100 silver=1 gold
100 gold=1 platinum
Roman currency might give you an answer as to what is realistic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_currency
However, bear in mind that only gold and silver coins were considered to have intrinsic value - the rest were fiat, in most cases fiduciary media, which in modern terms means you could take the money to the bank and exchange it for the amount of gold set at the time of issuance.
Due to the Romans gradually debasing their currency in terms of precious metal content, you have a general price rise as the Republic turned to Empire and eventual destruction.
This link explains a lot of the things and is worth a watch - it's not difficult to follow at all :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyV0OfU3-FU |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2014 : 02:05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kusghuul
That's an economic issue that most economic schools will never agree with each other on, but I believe most disagree on price fixing (bar maybe Marxist-derived schools). My point is e that gold in Faerun is EXTREMELY available or they've gone for token fiat currency, where there is some intrinsic value (therefore gold piece instead of today's copper coins whose face value is lower than the scrap metal value), but the value of the coin is mainly backed by the arms of the different states, as coin debasement is one of the most common things in war, as it seems to be required for wartime expenditure. And war is something Faerun has a lot of. (...)
I was half-joking, thus the smiley face - I did say that fiat currency does work to a large extent, and, well, we stand here to prove it (just pointing out we agree here).
Where I disagree is that the Realms must be running an economy overwhemingly based on fiat money, because we have many sources that contradict that. For one, if precious metals had little intrinsic value, it would not be worth it to plunder a dragon's hoard, who probably owns coins and bars stamped by long-dead nations from all around the world. Instead, we've been hinted (maybe it was stated, but I cannot find the source, so...) that precious metals are more abundant on Toril than on Earth (but still not abundant enough to make them worthless as media of exchange).
Still, if you take things like the price of a typical seagoing ship, it stands at around 20,000 gold pieces, which is 200kg of gold, or about 6 or 7 roman gold talents. It seems to me quite a bit on the expensive side, yes, but not overwhelming to the point of nonsense (I have only very superficial knowledge there though). The problem seems to be that many things in D&D don't use a similar scale at all.
However, it would also be an obvious mistake to assume that there is no debasement or fiat currency in the Realms at all. In fact we're presented with canon examples of it. Many coins such as the Waterdhavian Harbor Moon are clearly worth more than the weight of platinum and other metals in it - the only thing sustaining its incredible value is the confidence in the ability of Waterdeep to back it.
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Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Kusghuul
Acolyte
Norway
33 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2014 : 13:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I was half-joking, thus the smiley face - I did say that fiat currency does work to a large extent, and, well, we stand here to prove it (just pointing out we agree here).
Where I disagree is that the Realms must be running an economy overwhemingly based on fiat money, because we have many sources that contradict that. For one, if precious metals had little intrinsic value, it would not be worth it to plunder a dragon's hoard, who probably owns coins and bars stamped by long-dead nations from all around the world. Instead, we've been hinted (maybe it was stated, but I cannot find the source, so...) that precious metals are more abundant on Toril than on Earth (but still not abundant enough to make them worthless as media of exchange).
Still, if you take things like the price of a typical seagoing ship, it stands at around 20,000 gold pieces, which is 200kg of gold, or about 6 or 7 roman gold talents. It seems to me quite a bit on the expensive side, yes, but not overwhelming to the point of nonsense (I have only very superficial knowledge there though). The problem seems to be that many things in D&D don't use a similar scale at all.
However, it would also be an obvious mistake to assume that there is no debasement or fiat currency in the Realms at all. In fact we're presented with canon examples of it. Many coins such as the Waterdhavian Harbor Moon are clearly worth more than the weight of platinum and other metals in it - the only thing sustaining its incredible value is the confidence in the ability of Waterdeep to back it.
Seen as there's no current fiat currency that's lasted longer than 43 years, I'd beg to differ;) Either way, it's besides the point.
But I agree with regards to Faerun - they probably are running a precious metal standard, but there are some insane arbitrary prices;p
Though I believe the Mazticans run some sort of feather exchange?
Is dark gold (from Vile Darkness) a cryptocurrency?;p |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2014 : 12:25:04
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I always ascribed the high prices to the massive premium attached to high demand low volume items. Want that +1 long-sword? So does the local militia captain who ordered it from the cuttler who made it. So you're really going to have to sweeten the deal before I could sell it to you instead.
Iron rations? These are from my stocks and this caravan is facing a four-day journey. You better make it worth my time to eat nothing but beans for three days. |
Edited by - BlackAce on 07 Mar 2014 12:27:29 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2014 : 15:45:46
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Arcanamach, as I understand, the 1/10 ratio would be more realistic (or more Earth-like, if you will) than the 1/100 one.
Though platinum is so ridiculously rare that I don't think anyone used to make coins out of it. From what we know, Europeans (and Old World peoples in general) discovered platinum when Spain invaded Mexico in the 1500s, and only really managed to isolate it in the 1700s. Copper, on the other hand, is very abundant and the price varies more wildly than silver or gold, making it not very good as bullion - as Kusghuul pointed out, a ratio like that would make more sense if copper coins are a fiduciary medium (backed by silver and gold), which seems okay for the Realms. Same for iron and other sorts of coins we know from canon. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 07 Mar 2014 15:54:29 |
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Trade goods pricing
