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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 22:45:45
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Another thread got me to thinking on this subject.
What ever happened to the fantasy literature that showed "mere mortals" as being able to challenge the power of the divine?
I mean, I know it is there; but why are so many convinced that Mortals can't outstrip even the power of the Gods?
As the editions of D&D have come and gone, it has been a continuing trend that the divine can't be challenged in power...and mortals have become increasingly less powerful against the gods; to the point of nearly being powerless!
"In the beginning" mortal wizards (and few others) could literally amass enough power to chain the Lords of Hell and throw open the Gates of Heaven to challenge the Gods to combat.
Evil Wizards, such as Tam and others could actually hope to stand against a God in magical battle and hold their own; even if they couldn't actually permanently destroy a God. The earliest incarnation of D&D that I like to use (1st Edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons) never intended for Gods to simply be the highest tier of monster to be defeated; but it DID intend for a party of Heroic folks to be able to challenge a God that was stepping through a Gate and stuff him back in his home plane!
Rarely have I seen anyone actually play a character to the dizzying heights of level and power (legitimately...though my idea of ligit may be different I suppose) that would allow such to happen; but often the likes of Bigby, Mordenkainen and such were required to do so early on in the game.
So why are so many thinking that the Gods should be without the ability to be defeated by mortals? To me, it stands to reason that Gods should be able to not only be DEFEATED, but in some cases even chained by a mortal!
In Dragonlance, we see the Kingpriest of Istar getting ready to chain ALL THE GODS to do his bidding; and to prevent it the Gods had to invoke a cataclysm. Later, Raistlin nearly succeeds again.
In the Forgotten Realms we see that the Imaskari could even deny the presence of the Gods of their slaves into the Forgotten Realms...that is a major defeat if you ask me!
Also in the Realms, before Azuth was even a God, he defeated Savras and chained him into an artifact.
There are many other examples...but I won't blather on any longer.
The gist is this: why shouldn't mortals be able to challenge Gods? Is it a purely mechanical reason of game mechanics...or is it some fear people have that if divinity can be challenged by mortality then something horrible is wrong?
What exactly?
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 00:16:03
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| I have an extremely low opinion of mortals to begin with. The idea of them challenging ancient dragons, demon lords, or other such creatures is patently absurd to me, let alone the gods themselves. They have access to infinitely greater resources, have had thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of years to gain and secure power. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 00:19:57
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But that is exactly WHY mortals should fare well against them!
Their arrogance and somnolency is what makes them ripe!
I mean, the Roman Empire had a long time to make itself invulnerable; but we know that didn't work out.
I tend to look at mortals as the "refreshing wave of barbarity" that advanced civilizations experience.  |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 00:27:08
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The roman empire fell because the very things that had made it invincible had been crumbling in decay for centuries; the only comparable weakness that gods have is their worship slacking.
Not to mention that a mortal even considering challenging a god is either beyond desparate or beyond arrogant themselves. An arrogant god is going to beat an arrogant mortal. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 00:28:27
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Then, by your thoughts, a beyond desperate mortal should be ok?  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 00:36:38
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| A beyond desparate mortal is going to ask for help, and therefore is more likely to have divine sponsorship in thier battle agaisnt another god. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 00:39:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Then, by your thoughts, a beyond desperate mortal should be ok?
127 hours?
Back in topic, I have something to say about this. But I´m just fighting a fever right now, and nauseated after read some scrolls here in the keep. Tomorrow I´ll give voice to my mind.  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36964 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 01:45:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In Dragonlance, we see the Kingpriest of Istar getting ready to chain ALL THE GODS to do his bidding; and to prevent it the Gods had to invoke a cataclysm. Later, Raistlin nearly succeeds again.
Not exactly. The Kingpriest was demanding they serve him -- he had no degree of control over them. None at all. They hurled the fiery mountain down to punish him and the rest of the mortals for their arrogance.
I, personally, don't have an issue with mortals challenging deities... I just think it's going to take exceptional circumstances or exceptional power on the part of the mortal for the mortal to have a viable chance. Larloch could do it, but he's one of the very few I'd think would have a chance. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 01:49:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In Dragonlance, we see the Kingpriest of Istar getting ready to chain ALL THE GODS to do his bidding; and to prevent it the Gods had to invoke a cataclysm. Later, Raistlin nearly succeeds again.
Not exactly. The Kingpriest was demanding they serve him -- he had no degree of control over them. None at all. They hurled the fiery mountain down to punish him and the rest of the mortals for their arrogance.
I, personally, don't have an issue with mortals challenging deities... I just think it's going to take exceptional circumstances or exceptional power on the part of the mortal for the mortal to have a viable chance. Larloch could do it, but he's one of the very few I'd think would have a chance.
I'm confused, because I could have sworn I remember reading that his use of Wizard fueled magic taken from the Tower of High Sorcery in Istar is what gave him the secrets he needed to command the gods?
What novel was that...need to look that up again. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 02:22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In Dragonlance, we see the Kingpriest of Istar getting ready to chain ALL THE GODS to do his bidding; and to prevent it the Gods had to invoke a cataclysm. Later, Raistlin nearly succeeds again.
Not exactly. The Kingpriest was demanding they serve him -- he had no degree of control over them. None at all. They hurled the fiery mountain down to punish him and the rest of the mortals for their arrogance.
It was a little more involved than that, actually. Essentially, Beldinas [the Kingpriest], invoked the gods to allow him to destroy all evil by allowing him to become a god. He was very driven by pride, wrath, envy, and even fear into doing this. The gods were furious with his demand, and hurled the fiery mountain down upon the city of Istar. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 02:24:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In Dragonlance, we see the Kingpriest of Istar getting ready to chain ALL THE GODS to do his bidding; and to prevent it the Gods had to invoke a cataclysm. Later, Raistlin nearly succeeds again.
Not exactly. The Kingpriest was demanding they serve him -- he had no degree of control over them. None at all. They hurled the fiery mountain down to punish him and the rest of the mortals for their arrogance.
I, personally, don't have an issue with mortals challenging deities... I just think it's going to take exceptional circumstances or exceptional power on the part of the mortal for the mortal to have a viable chance. Larloch could do it, but he's one of the very few I'd think would have a chance.
I'm confused, because I could have sworn I remember reading that his use of Wizard fueled magic taken from the Tower of High Sorcery in Istar is what gave him the secrets he needed to command the gods?
What novel was that...need to look that up again.
I suggest you read Chris Pierson's "Kingpriest" trilogy. It provides an in-depth account of the Kingpriest's attempt to wrest power from the gods and, ultimately, make them answerable to his desires for Ansalon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 02:59:47
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Never thought I'd read a new trilogy from Dragonlance...thanks for the tip Sage!
Be looking for them now! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 03:22:32
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| I think it's almost a trope for mortals to challenge gods, actually. Something akin to the power-mad super-villain who thinks he can rule the world (or the universe, in some cases). In both cases, it's almost always a matter of simple arrogance and pride that leads the mortal in question to believe he even has the RIGHT to challenge them in the first place. The Kingpriest's attempt failed so miserably simply because he dared to put himself on the level with the gods in the first place- and they showed him (and anyone else who would ever think to try) his proper place beyond any doubt. There are RL myths of mortals challenging gods, but in almost EVERY CASE, they were at least part god themselves. And that is as it should be. Except in VERY rare and extraordinary instances, mortals simply have NO business challenging gods- unless said god is trying to destroy the world, and the mortal is trying to save it. But even then, a direct confrontation on a physical level is patently absurd. Better to reason with or try to trick the god than fight with him/her. You'd stand a much better chance of winning. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 03:27:35
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There you are! 
Why is it absurd in a game for mortals to challenge gods? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4487 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 03:44:34
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In a game, I could assume anything is possible. Challenging Gods should be no different. But the real question is Why should a mortal challenge a deity? I don't see a reason this would even come up except in certain campaigns when Mortals are put in a situation where they'd be forced to do it, not because they have a quirky whim to do so. Hence, it should be intertwined with the Plot and not because a PC thinks he can. That sort of campaign should also have no restrictions and allow Pun-Pun (just sayin').
What I think is funny is that 4E's Demigod Epic destiny allows for PCs to actually ascend into the ranks of the Divine, thus allowing them to challenge other deities. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 03:45:53
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| Well, I suppose I'm slightly biased. For one thing, I'm a wiccan, and have a great deal of respect for ALL revered gods, both past and present. As a person, I would NEVER consider picking a fight with one, or challenging the power of one, or trying to steal/usurp/whatever said power. Becasue as a Wiccan, I understand that there are some things that mortals are not MEANT to know or understand, and certainly not to try to attempt things that are the strict pervue of the gods. For instance, I would not go up to Yahwae and try to take over Heaven. I've too much reverence for the divine in general for that. Nor would I seek to learn the secrets of godly power in order to use it for my own purposes, as that is both incredibly selfish and arrogant. Mortals have little (if any) real understanding of what it actually MEANS to be a god, and to wield the powers of life, death, creation, and destruction. To think that any mortal could ever HOPE to understand those powers enough to use them RESPONSIBLY and WISELY is, as I said, ludicrous. Even in a game, there must be SOME things best left alone. Otherwise, you blow all sense of wonder, mystery, and believability right out the window. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4487 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 04:15:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Even in a game, there must be SOME things best left alone. Otherwise, you blow all sense of wonder, mystery, and believability right out the window.
Pretty much why I neverundstood why the put deitie's Stats into books, as this just reinforces the fact that players now want to go kill them, lol. I've always been under the impression, at least from the Forgotten Realms pantheon, that even fighting a deity on their homeplane and "killing" them doesn't actually render the being destroyed. This could weaken said deity, sure, but to out-right slay a God requires more than a +5 holy keen greatsword of speed. Often the backing of a greater deity and some serious artifacts might do the trick, but I'd say even with that, it's going to be difficult and you as a PC probably aren't coming back.
And I'd have to agree with Alystra on the RL religion viewpoint. As a Christian, I fully believe that there are powers out there that are better left unknown and left untouched. Which makes me even question the notion of going after a God's divinity (which I'm fairly certain no mortal would know what to do with). And I guess I'm baised as well, as I don't even mess with Ouija boards, lol. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 04:30:48
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I think it best to leave real life outa this one folks. I'm talking strictly fantasy here.
Why go after the power of the Gods? Because many wizards just HAVE TO KNOW what is next! The Netherese didn't consider the Gods as anything special, and fully expected that they would figure out how to have that power for the taking!
The Imaskari did the same...and so too the Red Wizards (Tam anyone?!)...and the Sarukh (sp?)...and etc.
So why should "modern" characters be any different from the overwhelming arrogance of those that came before them? Karsus is a PRIME example of what many wizards...who are NOT evil...aspire to!
Azuth defeated Savras for just the purpose I'm talking about: to prove himself SUPERIOR to an established God of Magic! Of course, I don't know the full story of Azuth (and suspect Mystra's hand behind him); but the fact that Wizards aspire to ever greater power is SO ESTABLISHED in not only Realmslore but other worlds as well.
I suppose my own arrogance makes me feel this way? I can't say I suppose...perhaps blinded as I am with the memories of Dalor Darden besting and chaining the likes of Yeenoghu and defeating the likes of Boccob (avatar mind you).
Sure, a god can send MANY Avatars; but they are more constrained by the pacts they share with other Gods...usually of non-interference; unless a God is willing to give a free hand to another god in some way, they usually don't want to interfere too much in the world of Mortals.
So, I guess I'm simply saddened by the fact that so many once exceedingly powerful mortals are now humbled by simple edition changes in rules that no longer allow them the power they once earned?
I don't know...I'm still torn. Perhaps someone will explain it to me. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 04:34:08
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| Wasn't the point of the Karsus story that of a man's reach exceeding his grasp, and how one individual's hubris brought down an empire in a spectical of destruction, and that mortals interfering in the realm of the divine is a generally bad idea? |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 04:37:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Wasn't the point of the Karsus story that of a man's reach exceeding his grasp, and how one individual's hubris brought down an empire in a spectical of destruction, and that mortals interfering in the realm of the divine is a generally bad idea?
Of course it was! But for those who THINK they are "better" than Karsus was and say "I won't make the mistakes he made!" there is only the question of how to make his spell work again.
Hubris knows no bounds...especially in beings who touch on the very fabric of reality by being able to cast Wish magics! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 04:44:29
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This is actually a sore spot for my namesake character who I use as an npc in several of my games; he feels very personally insulted by the idea of mortals seeking to challenge gods or personally attain godhood, and those who actually succeed, even more so. He believes firmly that mortals have a set place in the universe; below the gods.
Personally, not much liking humans in fantasy(my dislike for them is comparable to my dislike of elves), I enjoy situations where the gods in no uncertain terms smack the mortals down. Them trying isn't what bugs me. When they succeed, I have a problem. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 04:49:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
This is actually a sore spot for my namesake character who I use as an npc in several of my games; he feels very personally insulted by the idea of mortals seeking to challenge gods or personally attain godhood, and those who actually succeed, even more so. He believes firmly that mortals have a set place in the universe; below the gods.
Personally, not much liking humans in fantasy(my dislike for them is comparable to my dislike of elves), I enjoy situations where the gods in no uncertain terms smack the mortals down. Them trying isn't what bugs me. When they succeed, I have a problem.
How about Demons or Devils? Do you have a problem when Orcus gets canned by a mortal? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 04:59:49
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That one is slightly more about circumstance but generally speaking, yea, I'm not a big fan. If, say, it's not on their home plane, you have sponsorship(not necessarily from a god but from some big good or other big bad), and you get them by surprise- actually, that's another thing. While D&D deities aren't all-knowing by anymeans, I generally think of them as knowing what they need to know and a lot harder to take by surprise than just a powerful entity.
Anyway; if its a group effort, if you have the entity in question isolated and not on home ground, and if you have backing I'm more willing to give conscessions. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36964 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 05:12:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
There you are!
Why is it absurd in a game for mortals to challenge gods?
Because it's like taking a fire ant against an M1A2 Abrams with a highly skilled crew driving it. The difference in scale and capability is so staggering that it's just not logical to think that ant could do anything to the tank. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 05:16:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
That one is slightly more about circumstance but generally speaking, yea, I'm not a big fan. If, say, it's not on their home plane, you have sponsorship(not necessarily from a god but from some big good or other big bad), and you get them by surprise- actually, that's another thing. While D&D deities aren't all-knowing by anymeans, I generally think of them as knowing what they need to know and a lot harder to take by surprise than just a powerful entity.
Anyway; if its a group effort, if you have the entity in question isolated and not on home ground, and if you have backing I'm more willing to give conscessions.
Really?
Dang...how the hell would Gareth Dragonsbane have pulled of HIS save of Damara!
Seriously folks, you don't see the problem with Heroes not being able to defeat ANYONE when it is required?
I mean, what the hell do I need a Hero for...if I need a God to help me kill a god? What do I need a Hero for...if to defeat Orcus, I can only do it essentially with Superman coming to save the day?
That isn't heroic! That is Footsoldier. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 05:19:22
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Here is the crux for me:
If I can't outpower a god...how the hell can I outsmart them?
If they have had thousands of years to be invulnerable, shouldn't they also have had thousands of years to become impossible to outsmart? Shouldn't they have considered COUNTLESS possible avenues of assault on their person that would essentially make them impervious to all assault...no matter its kind or origin?
That is too much...and knocks the "hero" out and just leaves "ic(k)" in my mouth. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 05:20:40
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I was under the impression that Gareth did have divine support in his and his group's battles against Tiamat and Orcus. Not that there was a god there with them helping them in the fight, just giving support and backing throughout the adventure.
That being said I don't like gods and creatures like demon lords and arch devils actually being the main villains of a given adventuer focusing on mortals. I prefer them to be the bigger bad in the background, the man behind the man. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 05:25:01
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| I think you and I are looking at this from different angles. You're thinking "why would I want to read about a hero who needs help to slay a god" where as I'm thinking "why would I want to read about a god who is defeated by a hero". |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 06:04:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
There you are!
Why is it absurd in a game for mortals to challenge gods?
Because it's like taking a fire ant against an M1A2 Abrams with a highly skilled crew driving it. The difference in scale and capability is so staggering that it's just not logical to think that ant could do anything to the tank.
Maybe the Tank Driver is allergic to Fire Ants?
The tank driver wouldn't even see the fire ant coming...and by the time the ant bit the driver...well...
Sure, the driver smacks the ant and kills it...but THIS ant has Contingency Magic in place...and took the time to realize he had to negate the driver's contingency magic (his needle!) by catching him in the driver's seat during a VERY heated exchange against an Iraqi (or Fiendish) attack!
Gotta find your nitch.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 06:05:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I was under the impression that Gareth did have divine support in his and his group's battles against Tiamat and Orcus. Not that there was a god there with them helping them in the fight, just giving support and backing throughout the adventure.
That being said I don't like gods and creatures like demon lords and arch devils actually being the main villains of a given adventuer focusing on mortals. I prefer them to be the bigger bad in the background, the man behind the man.
He only had "guidance" which any idiot wizard (the one he was with) could have provided him!
I don't like them being the main villains either...but it shouldn't stop an arrogant wizard from being able to try to be the villain himself! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 06:07:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I think you and I are looking at this from different angles. You're thinking "why would I want to read about a hero who needs help to slay a god" where as I'm thinking "why would I want to read about a god who is defeated by a hero".
Agreed...100%
But it really depends on who is the subject of the story! If I'm reading about a God...then sure, smack the mortal.
But if I'm reading about my hero... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Topic |
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The Diminishing of Mortal Power
