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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 21:04:35
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Never used Gith, and have never used Drow in FR (used them so much in GH that I grew tired of them, long before Drizzt reared his maudlin head).
I prefer 'thinking games' (and PLEASE, no-one take that as an insult!!!)
In other words, my adversaries are almost always human (or demi-human), and part of the plot is to find-out who's really behind whatever is happening. There may be monsters, by they are usually working for someone more urbane.
To go into a village that is troubled by Orcs (or whatever), and then have the party go into the woods (or mountains, swamps, etc...) to find 'the Orcs' (or whatever) seems so.... 70-ish to me. I beat the 'dungeon crawl' scenario to death when I ran GH, and I grew very tired of it. Not that I don't still enjoy one every now and then, but I like my PCs to be able to spend time amongst 'sinister types', rather then out in the wilderness all the time. 'Intrigue' is more fun for me, these days (which is why I went from being a GHDM to an FRDM - FR is RIPE for those sorts of games).
And (to stay on-topic) I can use deities much more effectively this way; they make better 'thinking adversaries' then they do 'monsters'.
Just sayin'...... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2011 21:05:12 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 21:11:58
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| Agreed. I like to run a little of everything. That deurgar scenario led to my best dungeon-crawl, but it started out as a "solve the mystery" kind of adventure. And the gun-smuggling was actually being run by an off-world bunch of arcanes, gith, and giffs. The weapons were stolen from their gnomish inventors, then sold elsewhere, to be used against an elven border kingdom. And the leader of the empire that was actually buying and using the guns was a puppet being dominated by a powerful vampire wizard! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 21:28:49
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First off, dudes, leave Alystra alone. Whatever her games may or may not be like, the point is that she runs them the way she likes 'em. Which is all any of us can do! (And for the record, I think they sound great.) 
Secondly, I've used Gith in a game once. I mean, actually used him/her. As a PC. I need an epic level swordmage, and voila!
Thirdly, to my designer/writer's mind, the gods only have stats for if you really do want your characters challenging gods. If that's the sort of game you're running, great. In my current 4e FR game . . .
SPOILERS IF YOU'RE ONE OF MY PLAYERS GO AWAY!
... one of my characters is the reincarnation of Eilistraee (not that she knows it), and she's currently engaged in a long game with her soul-brother, the reincarnation of Vhaeraun (again, she doesn't know it, though there have been hints). And the only reason he doesn't swoop in and crush her (he's currently around 23rd level and she's 10th) is that he's waiting while she builds up her power, so he can turn her into an ally to go take out their treacherous mother. Will they work together, or will they fight? Will Lolth really be waiting at the end of the campaign? Only time will tell. In the meantime, he's kind of guiding her through, and reaping the rewards of her efforts as he can (i.e. pitting her against his foes).
Meanwhile, another of the PCs (a genasi) is on a collision course with the nemesis of his genasi parents: Blazing Rorn the Fury. Not that he's near high enough level, but I think there might be a battle there eventually.
END SPOILERS
And that's a pretty decent way to use gods, from a DM/campaign standpoint.
As a writer, I haven't had any interest in characters either interacting with or challenging gods as yet, other than that one scene in Depths of Madness with Erevan Ilesere. I guess we'll see if that comes up . . .
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 22:31:35
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My apologies Scribe Rupert. Openly mocking some scribes must be reserved for 'the Club', as poster Alystra demonstrates below...
But if this is not the case, I must wonder why you chose not to intervene previously. Perhaps ye Moderators are akin to the gods,eh? (In that we lowly mortals can never know your true purposes?)
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Dalor, ..., they would soon see that even an avatar would be WAAAYY out of the league of all but the most ridiculously munchkin-level mortals.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And as for out-powering a god- why would you WANT to? I think you are confusing heroes with power-hungry mages. (Who seem to be a dime a dozen, I'll grant you.) It seems to boil down to the level of maturity of the game.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 23:30:39
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Its easy to take people out-of-context on the internet.
I had not noted any malevolence in what she typed before you quoted it, but I see how you could conceive it that way.
Sometimes we word things a bit... badly...
There is at least one scribe here (whom I like, BTW) who literally makes my skin crawl when he describes his games (and no, Erdrick, it is not you, nor certain others here I have had harsh words with). To each his own - everyone has their 'sweet spot' when it comes to the power-level of their games. I can't stand lowbies or munchkins; I want my players to be able to handle themselves if a crisis arises, but I don't want them to be able to juggle planets. Somewhere in the middle is where I like it best...
...That's called Moderation.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Mar 2011 00:06:13 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 00:05:05
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| Mortals should in no way be able to challenge the gods unless the god is severely hampered or injured. For example- Karsus attacked through the weave (the source of the goddess's being) and he still lost. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 00:35:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Perhaps ye Moderators are akin to the gods,eh? (In that we lowly mortals can never know your true purposes?)
Our true purposes are defined by the dictates of the site's Code of Conduct. Our "Tablets of Fate," if you are so inclined.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 01:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Perhaps ye Moderators are akin to the gods,eh? (In that we lowly mortals can never know your true purposes?)
Our true purposes are defined by the dictates of the site's Code of Conduct. Our "Tablets of Fate," if you are so inclined.
It certainly feels like a 'Time of Troubles' at the moment. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 01:20:25
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| I wonder if that means Wild Sages will start appearing throughout the land ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 02:00:16
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| Okay, I'm confused now. How was any of what I wrote offensive? I was asking a question- one that to my mind deserves to be answered when dealing with challenging gods. Why WOULD anyone want to do so, either from an in-game stand-point, or as a player? To me, that's just asking to get slapped around. (Or depending on the god, simply squashed into oblivion, no chance of an afterlife.) I do not claim or pretend to be part of any sort of club, nor do I ever wish to offend others. As mentioned before, I've been a Mod elsewhere, so I know how thin an edge posting one's thoughts can be. Erdrick, I apologize if you took it personally, but I honestly would like an answer to that question. From ANYONE. What's your reasoning for wanting to battle deities, either as a player, or from the PC's POV? I've never seen any good reason for it outside of the "evil god out to destroy everything" trope, and even then, I'd rather see him put down but not obliterated. Evil deities are part of the very fabric of fantasy writing/gaming, so it would make just as little sense (IMHO) to attempt to destroy one. It throws the world in question out of balance. Dragonlance is a great example of this. Any time the gods of that world start making physical avatar appearances, things go bonkers. All the more reason to keep gods OUT of the kiddie pool. I guess I just feel that the only place mortals should routinely run into deities is in the afterlife. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 02:12:59
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Alystra I can try to break it down for you why some would find the comment insulting.
"they would soon see that even an avatar would be WAAAYY out of the league of all but the most ridiculously munchkin-level mortals. "
Some players do appear to aspire to such levels of play and would not want to be considered a munchkin. Extremely high level can be achieved without bending ever rule there is.
"And as for out-powering a god- why would you WANT to? I think you are confusing heroes with power-hungry mages. (Who seem to be a dime a dozen, I'll grant you.) It seems to boil down to the level of maturity of the game. "
This could be understood that games that allow play out-powering a deity lacks maturity. This could be considered insult to both DM and player of such games, questions the wisdom of people that even want to play such a game.
People aspire to derive enjoyment from the game, your way might not be their way, however there is nothing to say their way works better for that gaming group.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 02:27:50
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Killing a god is the ultimate thrill for a powergamer, routine fare for a munchkin, and unfortunate necessity for authors and game designers. It's a way to impress a permanent change upon the landscape. It's a classic fixation for insanely arrogant and ambitious megalomaniacs. It's a deepset psychological motivator for self actualization beyond the limits imposed by Jungian archetypes. People have been known to declare hatred of gods who oppose their religion or as some kind of personal retribution. A dead god makes a nice big trophy to hang above the fireplace, always looks good on a killer's resume, and some people just do it for the lulz. Go big or go home, ye can't bag a bigger fish than a god.
Having said all that, I strongly agree with your mindset, Alystra. Killing a god is a nearly impossible task for any mortal. It's also largely pointless, unless you're attempting to steal divine ranks/power, because there's always easier (and helluva lot safer) ways to reach your goals. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 02:46:56
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Hmmm. Well, I suppose if you put it that way, perhaps. It was not meant as any slant against those who do enjoy such games. In point of fact, I've played in several like that myself run by other people. And those types of games are fine. But they DO get stale after a while. I see it as being akin to a Monty Haul. Sure it can be fun to accumulate dozens of flaming vorpal swords of holy smiting, but when do you have enough? Power-plays and god-moding are fine- not my thing, of course, but *shrugs*. But I was asking from the perspective a person in the game world itself. In other words- what MOTIVATES someone to challenge a god? What's his purpose in it? If it's just power, then there seems to be a lack of depth in the character. (Note I did NOT say player or campaign.) If it's about the "next big epic achievement", then it would seem that challenging gods is just another step on a path of ever bigger and more impossible tasks. And even Hercules knew when to say enough was enough for that. Maturity can mean the level of sophistication or complexity of the campaign as well, so it was in no way meant to say that the players of such games are immature. But moat players that I've known have moved past that type of gaming after a while, and want something different from their games. Not necessarily better, but perhaps more mentally engaging.
And my comment about munchkin-level mortals was a simple observation, nothing more. It is plain to see that in order to have any hope of holding one's own against a god- let alone defeating one- a mortal would HAVE to be incredibly high-powered to begin with. Otherwise, said god would wipe the floor with the PC, and call for the nearest planar servitor to clean up the mess. When one has to beat a level 50+ being, it only makes sense that he'd better be nearly as high himself. Which is ONE of the definitions of a munchkin. (I even recall an editorial in Dragon WAAAY back dealing with the very subject of uber-high level "munchkins", so this is not JUST my opinion!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 05:58:58
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Taking the 'Munchkin' comment badly is being a bit thin-skinned, I'm thinking (the term is a generalization used throughout the hobby), but I can definitely see how the maturity thing can be taken as an indirect insult.
Not taking sides - just seeing everyone's point.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
It certainly feels like a 'Time of Troubles' at the moment.
I wonder if that means Wild Sages will start appearing throughout the land ...
Pure WIN.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 06:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
It certainly feels like a 'Time of Troubles' at the moment.
I wonder if that means Wild Sages will start appearing throughout the land ...
Pure WIN.
So, maybe we should formulate some kind of "Wild Sagic Chart?" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 08 Mar 2011 06:11:17 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 06:35:41
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Wild Sage- as opposed to Garden Sage? I use the latter to cook with, lol! (You wouldn't happen to know anyone named Rosemary, would you?) Sorry, couldn't resist.
On topic- I guess the reason for deciding to go off and commit deicide just escapes me. I've never played a character who wanted to, I find power-hungry wizards and the like to be utter idiots for trying, and I can't even imagine what a PC would do after they've gone and killed off one or more gods. Besides unbalancing the cosmos and possibly unraveling the very fabric of the multiverse, of course. Because let's face it, if you kill a god, you are basically making the statement that you have NO concern for the consequences of that act, such as possibly (for example, we'll assume you've killed Lathander) destroying the sun and landing the world in eternal darkness, or causing folk to be unable to die (if one killed Kelemvor.). And that's not the blessing it sounds, either. Imagine a world in which people sicken horribly or are mortally wounded, but cannot die and be released from their misery. Or where the dead all rise up again because there is now no where for them to go. Imagine killing Chauntea and causing all crops to wither and rot, the livestock to fall dead or no longer provide milk or give birth- and on and on..... Yep, that's what god-killing means to me. Total chaos and destruction. Unbalancing the forces of the multiverse. This is why I dislike the idea so intensely. So many players want to go kill Lolth or Shar, or Gruumsh, or Mystra, without even the slightest inkling of what hat means to the game-world at large. It's all about the PC, with very little thought for the consequences to all those NPC's they are supposedly protecting (if heroes) or who hired them to go do X. What's the point of killing gods if it renders the game-world unlivable?
I don't even give the players in my games a reason to try it. The gods are simply too far above mortals to make it worthwhile. If or when they show up, you can bet they're either bored and want to have some fun with the PC's, or they have a darn good reason. Besides, if the point of killing a god is to take their power, doesn't that also imply taking their place? If a PC in my group ever DID manage to kill a god, he would then have to fill the spot left open. That PC would no longer be playable. So there's really no point in doing it, since it effectively ends the PC's career, no matter what his reason for killing the deity. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 06:45:40
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| I begin to wonder if AO is another name for AlaundO ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 11:29:02
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Regarding Campaigns aimed at Killing Gods: In my campaign as DM, I don't plan on having the players go and kill any gods. As a matter of fact, they will unknowingly assist in bringing another god back (three guesses as to which god that is  )
Regarding Type of game and context of messages: About 10 years ago, I had a friend come over to play D&D from Montreal. I was playing a Bard and wrote a ballad as we went along about our exploits. It wasn't always easy to do (to make it make any sense - my poetry and music skills are lacking) but it was fun to do, and he happened to mention as a result to his at the time g/f who came to play as well that our games were "less serious" (or immature).
I took it in stride and didn't lash out. He could think what he wanted. I had fun, and my bard even entered a competition (entitled "NO HOLDS BARD" - get it?) - and the competitor just before him was Perdue the Halfling (direct ripoff of a minor NPC in BG1), who sand MY BALLAD and won the prize with it. Goes to show, just don't sell a copy of your ballad to a sneaky halfling who says he is a big fan, at least not until you win the No Holds Bard competition...
And my rambling ends to get back somewhat on topic.
Regarding Immortals (this @Markus): Small clarification, the immortal aspect of epic destinies in 4e is in regards to life longevity, etc... but a good old dragon breath with some claws and bites put in for good measure is still lethal (just in case this clarification is needed - and thats just an example to say they can still technically get killed). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 19:10:40
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My version of immortals is somewhat based on OD&D, with a smattering of both World of Tiers and Chronicles of Amber (and one series is a homage to the other). The 'Amberites' are merely one family who have uncovered the 'deeper secrets' of the universe. There are others - the Aesir, the Vanir (Valor), the Olympians, the Pharonics, parts of the Celestial Bureaucracy, The Sumaar, The Vedicoi, etc, etc... each is a family of beings who, on their home planes, have discovered the secrets of divinity... but THEY ARE NOT GODS. The are extremely powerful mortals who have given themselves immortality by unlocking certain 'Mysteries of the Universe'. Some mind their own business, some get involved in 'family politics', and others get involved in multi-spheric conspiracies and alliances.
But ALL of them can die. There are even (super-)diseases and ailments that can affect them. The only difference between them and mortals is that they have unlocked parts of their brain that others haven't (some of their 'godly' powers), and they will not die of old age. They also can't die from 'malnourishment', although they can enter into a coma-like state of hibernation if denied Elan (the energy that is transferred during the worship-process).
My (concept of) immortals have nothing to do with 4e Immortals - if there is any similarity chalk it up to parallel development.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Wild Sage- as opposed to Garden Sage? I use the latter to cook with, lol! (You wouldn't happen to know anyone named Rosemary, would you?) Sorry, couldn't resist.
Are they related to Garden Gnomes? 
Or, if the Garden Sage is so important, then what about the other three members of this adventuring company - Parsley, Rosemary, and Tyme? Last I heard they were headed for Scarborough Fair...
Or would that be Scardale Fair? Could be that pesky map-trouble we were talking about in the other thread. 
Anyhow, concerning the rest of your post: I agree with you in-theory - I find god-killing a bit distasteful in D&D. HOWEVER, it is an accepted trope of the Genre (Conan, Lankhmar, Moorcock's multiverse, etc), and therefor should be covered by the D&D game, regardless of our personal feelings about such things.
I think Gary & Co. handled it sublimely back in 1e. People got to 'kill gods', but all they were really doing is killing a single Avatar, which means nothing changes in the game-world, but the PCs gain a new (POWERFUL) enemy. Even in Moorcock's multiverse (Elric, etc), certain gods did not exist on some worlds, having been destroyed there (or perhaps having never bothered with that world at all). When Elric ventured outside of Youngspace, he never knew if he'd be able to contact Arioch (and when he did, Arioch tended to look different, and sometimes even acted a bit different).
So when in doubt, fall back on fiction. It always works for me.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
So, maybe we should formulate some kind of "Wild Sagic Chart?"
Put it on the 'to Do' list.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I begin to wonder if AO is another name for AlaundO ...
AlaundO 
If Arik disappears, we must all strike this info from our minds, for our own safety.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Mar 2011 19:16:10 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 21:00:16
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Exactly, Mt. Certainly deicide shouldn't be the scope of every campaign, or even most campaigns. However, to claim that telling these stories, epic in scope and deeply theosophically complex, is 'munchkin' or immature is exceedingly ridiculous. As someone who synthesizes every edition of the game, and looks to story first, combat second, I love the opportunites that came from running a bit of deicide in my campaigns.
And Shar learned a thing or two about reach and grasp, and the difference between the two.
And maybe felt the sting of vengeance herself... |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 22:24:06
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On the one hand, if you have an epic campaign where it's all about going after an evil deity's minions, and then culminates in a massive fight with a deity, if it all makes sense for the story, then I don't have a problem with god-killing in games. But it really should be massively epic and cool, and tie in with the players' characters' storylines in ways that make sense. But not all games are like that.
The Bhaal storyline in the Baldur's Gate computer games, that was really very well done and I loved that. Made total sense. IMO it was the best thing to come out of the Time of Troubles, really.
But on the other hand, in most games I think the gods should be completely distant, at least in the sense of being able to attack them. I'm totally "pro" for seeing distant, mysterious gods send dream-warnings to their clerics, or having a "possible avatar" give PCs a little glimpse at a clue, or even a deity representative give a little nudge here and there. Even then, such things should be rare and done in such a way as to elicit a sense of wonder from the players.
But actual 1:1 interaction with a deity? Not my preference at all. The worst thing is when a really immature/new DM has a god show up and take care of an enemy (like a DMPC, but way worse). Yugh.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 11:39:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
On the one hand, if you have an epic campaign where it's all about going after an evil deity's minions, and then culminates in a massive fight with a deity, if it all makes sense for the story, then I don't have a problem with god-killing in games. But it really should be massively epic and cool, and tie in with the players' characters' storylines in ways that make sense. But not all games are like that.
The Bhaal storyline in the Baldur's Gate computer games, that was really very well done and I loved that. Made total sense. IMO it was the best thing to come out of the Time of Troubles, really.
But on the other hand, in most games I think the gods should be completely distant, at least in the sense of being able to attack them. I'm totally "pro" for seeing distant, mysterious gods send dream-warnings to their clerics, or having a "possible avatar" give PCs a little glimpse at a clue, or even a deity representative give a little nudge here and there. Even then, such things should be rare and done in such a way as to elicit a sense of wonder from the players.
But actual 1:1 interaction with a deity? Not my preference at all. The worst thing is when a really immature/new DM has a god show up and take care of an enemy (like a DMPC, but way worse). Yugh.
I agree with this. Any personal interaction with a deity (especially one you don't worship) should be asomething that is built up to and feel special. In my group they are facing an aspect of Kurtalmak the Kobold deity, not his full powerful form, and they worked their way there by slaying A LOT of his faithful and subsequently slaying them all AGAIN in hell. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 04:02:44
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| I'm sure Sammaster wishes HIS DM had built him up to fighting against Lathander. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 05:07:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Exactly, Mt. Certainly deicide shouldn't be the scope of every campaign, or even most campaigns. However, to claim that telling these stories, epic in scope and deeply theosophically complex, is 'munchkin' or immature is exceedingly ridiculous. As someone who synthesizes every edition of the game, and looks to story first, combat second, I love the opportunites that came from running a bit of deicide in my campaigns.
Telling the story itself is not ridiculous, and god-slaying CAN be done interestingly and well- at least in fiction. BUT! The experiences I've had with it is that it is generally used only as an excuse to send those ultra-high level PC's (and yes, that IS a definition of a munchkin, though not the only one) against a progressively greater spiral of more powerful enemies culminating in the death of one or more gods, for little better reason than because either the DM or the players wanted to.
But what happens AFTER a PC kills a god? Generally, the game just ignores that part, and goes "hmm, what can we kill next?" This is not cunducive to fun gaming. Seriously, it gets tiring fast. Better to retire the character(s) before they ever get high enough to make it a real possibility, UNLESS there is some all-important, world-spanning story purpose to killing the god. And unfortunately, I've never come across a game where that was actually the case. And this is after some 16 + years of gaming, with multiple groups. I personally get very bored with games that start upping the power level in combat to dizzying heights.
In fact, When I run games, the combat usually involves mostly low-level monsters, minions, and perhaps a few scattered higher-level villains. But they're always mortal (or undead). But I don't make it the focus of my games at all. The combat I run is almost always with a purpose, to move the plot along. (Like the duergar scenario I mentioned earlier. Every creature I placed in the cavern warren they inhabited was part of the plot.) The largest part of my games is all about problem-solving, mysteries, interactions, and using skills. Killing gods frankly bores me. I'd rather find a way to send the god's followers all scattering like leaves before they wake the slumbering world-devourer, than try to fight it after it wakes up. It's more fun for me that way.
For what it's worth, I don't tell anyone how to run their games, and don't see anything WRONG with killing a god- as long as it's done with an eye to some great epic story-driven event that involves "saving the world" or something to that effect. Like keeping the god Galactus from eating the planet, or whatever. (If he were a god, of course.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 05:44:14
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Lets just suppose...for a moment...that an Evil Character considered himself a hero...and that the destruction and utter end of all Gods was the MOST heroic deed to aspire to. That the killing of Gods was justified because:
His entire civilization sank beneath the waves and whirlpools of a titanic cataclysm that the Gods did NOTHING to prevent. For all of their ability to "Create Worlds"...they couldn't save the MILLIONS of people that cried out to them to do just that.
Suppose this man wanted NOTHING to do with Divinity; but wanted to completely erase what he considered the "unfettered hubris and utter contempt for mortality possessed by the cowards calling themselves Gods who would not expend their own SINGLE life to save millions!"
Would you consider such a one to simply be insane and evil...or that he was indeed a Hero to all the innocent men, women and children who were cast away by those that could have saved them by perhaps expending the life of only one god...even if it meant two or three. Why would such selfish individuals be so much more worthy than the innocent eyes of children playing in the streets that this Wizard could not forget...and so his rage burned and his desire for their deaths to be avenged because of the apathy of "Gods" left them to then be ENSLAVED to the will of those that had let them die in the life after?
What say you to a Wizard like that...who then wanted to kill Gods?  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 06:08:57
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I'd say he's an arrogant idiot who does not understand how the multiverse works, not the minds and will of the gods themselves. Perhaps they allowed it to happen because his civilization was evil itself, or was threatening to cause some even greater cataclysm. Mortals CANNOT understand why gods do or don't do things, so to think that the gods aexist solely for the benefit of mortals is the height of hubris. What you have is an atheist or faithless, who "blames" the gods for the disaster without even knowing who or what caused it in the first place.
Here's the thing- take it as you will. Gods are not just powerful beings, they are physical embodiments of the concepts in their portfolios. (Never mind what the stats say- they are meant purely for those who wish to kill gods.) Let's think about what that means. The oldest gods were around long before there were any mortals to worship them, and they really don't NEED and followers- they simply EXIST. Kill one, and the portfolio he/she represents (the abstract ideas) fall apart, and part of the cosmic order goes with it. Kill Death, you've just DESTROYED "DEATH" itself. Kill the god of the sun, and you've destroyed the sun. See where this is going? They are intrinsically linked to their portfolios. there was a series by Piers Anthony that illustrates the idea of what happens when people "kill" a god. A man tried to commit suicide, and Death came to claim him. He saw him, got scared, and shot and killed Death, thus becoming Death himself. similar things happened with several other "gods" (incarnations) in the series- A woman who was a naturalist became the Incarnation of Nature,and a warrior prince ended up taking the sword of War. They had to, because the power of the Incarnations(gods) could not be left vacant, or those basic cosmic forces would become unbalance and unravel creation.
I feel that if any PC ever DOES kill a god, he would be required (probably by the fabric of the multi-verse itself, or some "higher power" to BECOME that god himself, to close the hole left behind. Either that, or the person standing nearest to the god when he/she died would be. It's why Midnight became Mystra 2.0. The universe abhors a vacuum, especially when it comes to certain basic foundations of creation. Life, death, light, darkness, weather, earth, love, etc- all these things are part of the mortal world. Without them- and their attendant embodiments, reality would unravel and there would be nothing left. Which would make Shar a suicidal goddess.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 06:24:33
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| Shar is fueled by void and oblivion. It's not enough to simply not exist ... it's required that everything (and everybody) does not exist. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 07:37:36
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So the world of Darksun actually has gods? No.
It is the fear of mortals that without things greater than them they have no place to "go to" when they die. It is the fear of "nothing" that forces mortals to have "faith" in things they often have no ability to accept without insanity.
With advanced consciousness comes the consequence of realizing mortality. A recent study (having to do with a neuro-stimulation helmet of some sort I think) has shown that the stimulation of a particular area of the brain actually causes the subject to feel the presence of individuals that are impossible to see or detect other than by the revelation of the stimulated individual. Current Theory is that in our ever increasing powers of reason and logic, there had to be a counter-balance to prevent a breakdown of the psyche that was being forced to accept it could see and begin to explain the universe...but couldn't comprehend that their own "self" would end without causing mental breakdown.
Coincidentally, the same study showed that those who had attempted suicide previously did not have the same reaction to this stimulation; and in fact it caused them increased anxiety.
So...going back to the world of Faerun, mortals don't "need" Gods at all to exist and go about their daily lives. This is obvious with the recent reduction in the Godly Realms in its numbers...as well as numerous deicides, deific deaths (with no replacement) and etc.
The very existence of Shar supports this, in that the will of those who do not believe that there is a need for Gods forces the manifestation of a God whose sole purpose is to cause the end of all.
Just because there are fancy Realmsian Myths floating about that Shar was one of the first gods doesn't make it true! Ed Greenwood himself has said so...and I will take his advice on it! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Mortals challenging the Gods.
