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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 07:43:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'd say he's an arrogant idiot who does not understand how the multiverse works, not the minds and will of the gods themselves. Perhaps they allowed it to happen because his civilization was evil itself, or was threatening to cause some even greater cataclysm. Mortals CANNOT understand why gods do or don't do things, so to think that the gods aexist solely for the benefit of mortals is the height of hubris. What you have is an atheist or faithless, who "blames" the gods for the disaster without even knowing who or what caused it in the first place.
Here's the thing- take it as you will. Gods are not just powerful beings, they are physical embodiments of the concepts in their portfolios. (Never mind what the stats say- they are meant purely for those who wish to kill gods.) Let's think about what that means. The oldest gods were around long before there were any mortals to worship them, and they really don't NEED and followers- they simply EXIST. Kill one, and the portfolio he/she represents (the abstract ideas) fall apart, and part of the cosmic order goes with it. Kill Death, you've just DESTROYED "DEATH" itself. Kill the god of the sun, and you've destroyed the sun. See where this is going? They are intrinsically linked to their portfolios. there was a series by Piers Anthony that illustrates the idea of what happens when people "kill" a god. A man tried to commit suicide, and Death came to claim him. He saw him, got scared, and shot and killed Death, thus becoming Death himself. similar things happened with several other "gods" (incarnations) in the series- A woman who was a naturalist became the Incarnation of Nature,and a warrior prince ended up taking the sword of War. They had to, because the power of the Incarnations(gods) could not be left vacant, or those basic cosmic forces would become unbalance and unravel creation.
I feel that if any PC ever DOES kill a god, he would be required (probably by the fabric of the multi-verse itself, or some "higher power" to BECOME that god himself, to close the hole left behind. Either that, or the person standing nearest to the god when he/she died would be. It's why Midnight became Mystra 2.0. The universe abhors a vacuum, especially when it comes to certain basic foundations of creation. Life, death, light, darkness, weather, earth, love, etc- all these things are part of the mortal world. Without them- and their attendant embodiments, reality would unravel and there would be nothing left. Which would make Shar a suicidal goddess....
Your logic is flawed...if there is a demand for a void to be filled; then the Gods could simply have prevented the destruction of a civilization by sacrificing their own lives...and after the Universe would create more Gods.
The Empire of Alphatia is the civilization I was referencing...and it wasn't evil. Its destruction was a plot hook obviously...but that is player knowledge...and not character knowledge. To Dalor Darden, it was cold selfishness and apathy that caused the Gods to allow the destruction of his people...
Just imagine the revenge you would want on someone you percieved as guilty of killing your entire family...now multiply that in the magnitude of hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions...
As you don't know the full story from my perspective...I'll try to remedy that a bit... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 12:32:39
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@Alystra I'm sorry that your games have lacked the richness and complexity that my games have 'in spades'. I personally try to not make blanket statements of truth based solely on my limited experience.
Regarding your definition of 'munchkin'. Are you saying that The Chosen, Larloch, and all the other "high level" folks of the Realms are 'munchkin'?
Dalor, your description of Dalor to me is not Heroic in the least. He sounds Evil to me. He blames the Powers for not rescuing his civilization, but why does Dalor believe that the Powers must serve him in this capacity? Unless he had a contract with the Powers, like cataclysm insurance, why do they owe him?
Further, Dalor can plane shift, right? There are innumerable worlds on infinite planes that have suffered cataclysmic destruction. Where was Dalor when they needed him? Maybe Dalor should be murdered for failing to 'save' any of these?
Vengeance is the providence of small people, in my opinion. |
Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 10 Mar 2011 12:40:52 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 17:36:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
@Alystra I'm sorry that your games have lacked the richness and complexity that my games have 'in spades'. I personally try to not make blanket statements of truth based solely on my limited experience.
Regarding your definition of 'munchkin'. Are you saying that The Chosen, Larloch, and all the other "high level" folks of the Realms are 'munchkin'?
Dalor, your description of Dalor to me is not Heroic in the least. He sounds Evil to me. He blames the Powers for not rescuing his civilization, but why does Dalor believe that the Powers must serve him in this capacity? Unless he had a contract with the Powers, like cataclysm insurance, why do they owe him?
Further, Dalor can plane shift, right? There are innumerable worlds on infinite planes that have suffered cataclysmic destruction. Where was Dalor when they needed him? Maybe Dalor should be murdered for failing to 'save' any of these?
Vengeance is the providence of small people, in my opinion.
LOL..."providence of small people" indeed!
He is OF COURSE Evil...to his chilling core. He sees himself in a different light however; and no amount of reasoning with a madman is giong to change how he sees "the truth".
As for your comment of vengeance being the providence of small people...well "Vengeance is mine sayeth..."
Well, you get the point. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 19:42:20
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| Dalor — Athas (Darksun) does not have true gods, at least not as of 2E/3E. There are god-king templars; they have believers, grant priest spells, and are effectively as powerful as deities within their domains. They are vastly more potent than the other denizens of Athas, which says a lot. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 19:51:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Dalor — Athas (Darksun) does not have true gods, at least not as of 2E/3E. There are god-king templars; they have believers, grant priest spells, and are effectively as powerful as deities within their domains. They are vastly more potent than the other denizens of Athas, which says a lot.
Lmao, the Soeceror kings of Atlas do grant spells, but an e en cursory review I'd the 2e Dragon Kings sourcebook makes it abundantly lead that they are NOT EVeN CLOSE To being as powerful as true Powers.
LMAO |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 20:11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Dalor — Athas (Darksun) does not have true gods, at least not as of 2E/3E. There are god-king templars; they have believers, grant priest spells, and are effectively as powerful as deities within their domains. They are vastly more potent than the other denizens of Athas, which says a lot.
Lmao, the Soeceror kings of Atlas do grant spells, but an e en cursory review I'd the 2e Dragon Kings sourcebook makes it abundantly lead that they are NOT EVeN CLOSE To being as powerful as true Powers.
LMAO
I'm confused.
I think there is a misunderstanding about what constitutes a "God" among fantasy fans.
I've always just given the basic explanation that if someone gives a thing worship...well, it is a God.
So Erkrick, what is your definition of a God? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 20:28:10
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What constitutes a "god" is sometimes a matter of fine definition. Non-uniform and sometimes controversial definition. For example, I consider Asmodeus a "true god" (in D&D terms) as "originally" stated in D&D canon, though many people would nitpick or strongly disagree and could readily support their claims with other D&D canon.
Various D&D editions have presented gods, powers, immortals, and all manner of intermediate "ranks" or orders which range from beefier mortals to cosmic overgod(s). Many contradictory game rules have been printed to describe the stats and powers of such beings ... it's important to remember these rules are typically designed to add flavour to particular settings and were themselves evolved or edited over time with each new product. It's hardly appropriate to compare OD&D immortals, 1E gods, 2E powers, 3E/3.5E deities, or 4E gods because these are essentially different beings from entirely different games. It's like comparing Monopoly money with real money; they may both share many characteristics and even have the same names but they are meant to serve different purposes and are hardly the same thing at all. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 21:57:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
What constitutes a "god" is sometimes a matter of fine definition. Non-uniform and sometimes controversial definition. For example, I consider Asmodeus a "true god" (in D&D terms) as "originally" stated in D&D canon, though many people would nitpick or strongly disagree and could readily support their claims with other D&D canon.
Various D&D editions have presented gods, powers, immortals, and all manner of intermediate "ranks" or orders which range from beefier mortals to cosmic overgod(s). Many contradictory game rules have been printed to describe the stats and powers of such beings ... it's important to remember these rules are typically designed to add flavour to particular settings and were themselves evolved or edited over time with each new product. It's hardly appropriate to compare OD&D immortals, 1E gods, 2E powers, 3E/3.5E deities, or 4E gods because these are essentially different beings from entirely different games. It's like comparing Monopoly money with real money; they may both share many characteristics and even have the same names but they are meant to serve different purposes and are hardly the same thing at all.
BINGO! I wish I had thought of that comparison!
Too many people playing fantasy games get caught up in the feeling that "Gods" should be as they are often seen in our own REAL world...but in a fantasy setting, they are rarely seen as they are in this world.
Fantasy Gods are just different... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 02:34:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
@Alystra I'm sorry that your games have lacked the richness and complexity that my games have 'in spades'. I personally try to not make blanket statements of truth based solely on my limited experience.
Regarding your definition of 'munchkin'. Are you saying that The Chosen, Larloch, and all the other "high level" folks of the Realms are 'munchkin'?
So you personally know what goes on in my games in terms of complexity? I doubt that. Most of the plots of my games have multiple levels and interconnections, side-plots, and even character goals woven in. I do not subscribe to the basic hack/slash type of gaming by any means. I prefer to run games that are interactive, intellectual- once had a planar-pocket maze city that had only ONE exit, which was hidden in plain view and could only be opened with a "key" in the form of tail-rings on a bunch of eyewing "watchers" that guarded it- and unconventional. I quite often think outside the box of "go kill X to bring back Y artifact to stop Z from happening" sort of games, to things like discovering why the sheep in the village farms are disappearing while people begin acting strangely as a secret criminal organization cleans house among the nobility, and all while the PC's are searching for a lost family relic! Not complex enough for you? Then what is?!?!
Dalor wrote: "Your logic is flawed...if there is a demand for a void to be filled; then the Gods could simply have prevented the destruction of a civilization by sacrificing their own lives...and after the Universe would create more Gods.
The Empire of Alphatia is the civilization I was referencing...and it wasn't evil. Its destruction was a plot hook obviously...but that is player knowledge...and not character knowledge. To Dalor Darden, it was cold selfishness and apathy that caused the Gods to allow the destruction of his people...
Just imagine the revenge you would want on someone you percieved as guilty of killing your entire family...now multiply that in the magnitude of hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions...
As you don't know the full story from my perspective...I'll try to remedy that a bit..."
How is it flawed? I've given several examples of just how MUCH mortals NEED gods- such as the goddess of agriculture and wild nature (Chauntea). She literally IS Toril- are you trying to say that Faerunians don't NEED her?! That's highly illogical, as Spock would say. How would they fare if there was no power to keep all the livestock from going barren, or the crops from dieing of drought? What if there was a plague that swept the land and there was no one to pray to to stop it? Or what if- using my example of Umberlee from the other thread- there were no tides or currents? How would ships move? How about if Selune (the moon) did not exist? How would folk see at night? How would Toril's orbit be different? Would there still be life without the Moon Goddess's orb to guard against starfalls? I kind of doubt it. The POINT is that folk in fantasy worlds NEED gods, no matter how much they might protest otherwise. Those gods are there FOR A REASON. That being to keep the balance of certain forces, and to ensure that their mortal followers actually CAN live, work, play, and worship them. Without the gods, life on Toril would be worse than the Nine Hells, Abyss, and Pandemonium combined.
Also, I fail to see how the demand for a void in godly power to be filled could be filled by a god sacrificing himself to prevent a cataclysm in the mortal world. That is contradictory. If the god DID sacrifice his own life, it would then CREATE such a void, thus causing an unbalance in the cosmic order. It's a self0defeating argument.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 03:53:41
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Great Fun this!
I agree with ya...in Faerun Gods are needed...but it is nice to hear others explain the why; and not just say "Gods are powerful and you can't challenge them" becuase that isn't true.
Now, I won't go so far as to say that Faerun wouldn't exist without Gods...but I will go so far as to say that Gods wouldn't exist without worshipers.
The goddess of the world IS the world? I don't believe that holds true any longer...she lost her hold on the world and now there are MANY gods of the world such as Silvanus and others.
I also think the world would survive even if there were not clerics to do healing and miracles. And if not, then the plague of civilization would be wiped out by the anti-civilization plague killing agent created by nature to preserve itself.
Many ways to skin a cat... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 04:32:50
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Dalor, just to clarify, I'm not just talking about wiping out civilizations. I'm talking about wiping out ALL life on Toril. And I don't mena that Faerunians survive because of the priests performing miracles or healing, either. Rather, it is due to the influences and actions of the gods themselves. Think of it as a baker making a cake The baker (pick a god) puts together certain ingredients to create a cake, and to make it the best it can be. Too much of one or another, and the cake comes out wrong, or not at all. Creation and maintainance of their portfolios is a delicate act of weaving intricate threads of the fabric of reality to a desired end. Gods can do this because they are part of it to an extent that mortals never even begin to comprehend. Pull on one force here, and something happens across the world. Mortals never see this, though, and think that the gods exist only to please and aid them. They don't realize how big and vastly complex the multi-verse is. This is one of the reasons there are so many gods. Each one can only control certain parts of the cosmic forces of the sphere, so they concentrate solely on their own part, and trust the other gods to worry about the rest. Some might want to handle more, and look toward taking control of pieces of the reality puzzle from other gods, whether by force or guile. Others band together to exert greater control and aid each other to maintain the stability of their combined parts. Seen in this light, the gods are somewhat like a body, with each god as an organ working to perform its task. If some of those organs try to take over the tasks of others, the body suffers, and Toril with it.
And it's been stated in the lore that Chauntea IS the "spirit" of Faerun, if not the entire planet. She literally Is the land. Without her, there would be no land at all, nor anything living on it. This is canon. Same with Selune. Her presence (the moon) has indeed protected Toril from starfalls in the past, thus preventing terrible catastrophy on at least one occasion. Can't get to my books to find it ATM, but I recall the moon being hit by something. I'm sure that there may have been others, such as the event that created the Tears. Starfalls have caused massive destruction in Fearun's past; imagine the devastation if Selune was not there to help protect it!!!
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 05:32:05
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| Aw, gee. What's wrong with hack-n-slash, Alystra? I've gotta say that my poor tormented PCs have done a phenomenal amount of hack-n-slash in recent sessions and everybody's having a jolly good time (much of this can be attributed to an astonishingly bloodthirsty ruthless little girl who's playing a well-endowed barbarian). I suspect much of the jocular PC attitude results from having a simple (if dangerous) mission where progress is easily tracked; the usual machinations, layered plots, and subtle threats are currently forgotten while the players revel in gore and glory. Sort of refreshing. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Mar 2011 05:33:15 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 05:45:04
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| Don't get me wrong- I enjoy a little gory hack-n-slash every now and hen. but I usually prefer to integrate the fighting into my over-all campaign, as brief episodes of fierce, balls-to-the-wall battle (Can I say that here?) between sessions of problem-solving, investigating strange mysteries, crimes, or ancient secrets, and some fun NPC interactions. Like my last game-group visiting a dwarven city during the setting's spring dertility festival, and running across an odd sight- a drunken couple boinking enthusiastically in an alley, which consisted of a male dwarf, and a female orc! One of the PC's was disgusted by the combo, and proceeded to summon a pair of giant scorpions to kill the poor couple..... Everyone laughed, but I sort of felt sorry for the revelers. They were just celebrating, after all.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 12:47:25
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Gross. Then the grossness gets murdered, and everyone has a jolly laugh.
So, when Bane died, tyranny no longer existed in Faerun... or when Moander died, there was no more decay in Faerun... or when Amantour passed from the Pantheon, the Sun no longer existed in Faerun (I'll retcon my Pc's sun tan)... or when Mystra died, magic no longer existed...
Oh, wait, none of the above is true. |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 18:50:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Gross. Then the grossness gets murdered, and everyone has a jolly laugh.
So, when Bane died, tyranny no longer existed in Faerun... or when Moander died, there was no more decay in Faerun... or when Amantour passed from the Pantheon, the Sun no longer existed in Faerun (I'll retcon my Pc's sun tan)... or when Mystra died, magic no longer existed...
Oh, wait, none of the above is true.
Multiple deities can share the same portfolio. Besides the late Mystra, I can think of two other deities that have the magic portfolio. I can also say the same about the War domain too. And if a certain deity dies there is always another one waiting to expand their spheres of influence or hold onto a portfolio until another proper Power comes along to take it off their hands.
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 19:12:03
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Most of Bane's power somehow ended up in the Baneson, Iyachtu Xvim. Cyric claimed the Portfolio of Tyranny while Talos claimed those of Strife and Violent Death. Cyric was incompetent and later divested of this power, Talos appears to have grown a little in stature by 3E. It's arguable that tyranny in the Realms was diminished, especially after the destruction of Zhentil Keep (which was Cyric's fault). Bane (and his power over Tyranny) was eventually restored when he subsumed Xvim. It's arguable that tyranny in the Realms has seen a resurgence, especially during the 3E/4E transition in Thay. Some sources claim Asmodeus absorbed some of Bane's power as well; in any event, Asmodeus (and other beings like him) do have access to the Realms and are always willing to opportunistically fill a power vacuum.
Moander (and Rotting Decay) had always existed within the Realms; he was just dormant. I assume Finder still maintains these portfolios, although he has a more benign outlook and probably works closely with Chauntea, so these processes are balanced by nature. [I personally think it would be very interesting if we discover the divine power taken from Moander has been rotting Finder from within, essentially transforming him into a half-insane and tormented Moander-II. But that's just irrelevant musing.]
Lathander is essentially just a continuation of Amaunator.
The deaths of Mystryl, Mystra, and Midnight (along with their relevant impacts on Magic and the Weave) have already been well documented.
All of these portfolios represent "natural" intrinsic processes within the Realms (with the possible exception of Tyranny); they would likely continue regardless of divine governance, although they would not thrive without a deity actively encouraging their spread. I suggest that great things like these have a certain "inertia"; a lack of deity lasting a few years or even decades is just not enough to reverse many millennia of careful nurturing. Tyranny, in particular, is deeply routed (perhaps bred into) mankind and thus will always exist in some form (unless mankind is changed or deleted). Some human deity of Tyranny will probably always emerge in the Realms; whether an existing god or an entirely invented one. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Mar 2011 19:21:31 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 20:21:42
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I think (as in, PURE conjecture) that the whole process of portfolios, domains, etc is a contrivance by the mortal churches of deities.
The truth is, a deity recieves whatever worship is aimed at it. That means if you believe Mystra is empowering your spells, then she gets the 'juice' (Elan is my term for this worship-energy). If you think Thoth is doing it, then HE gets the Elan (or Savras, or Azuth, etc). YOUR (the Pc/NPCs) beliefs determine where your energies go, not some 'cosmic scheme'. Religions are all about obfuscation of the truth - we have way too much canon that contradicts the supposed 'laws of the universe'. In fact, Ao himself admits that the Tablets of Fate were nothing more then a 'red herring' - they DO NOTHING.
So when we read a source that says 'such-and-such', we need to read it in the (sorrowfully missed) 'inaccurate third-person' style that 1e/2e was blessed with. What we are reading about the cosmology is what Torillian Sages believe to be true, at the time the tome is written (which is why things change from edition to edition).
That means if I think Corellon is the god of assassins, and truly believe that with all my heart, then each time I murder someone Corellon gets the 'juice', whether he wants it or not. It is based on FAITH, which is mortal BELIEF - that's what decides what power goes where. A deity's portfolio is little more then what they have made a claim to, NOT something imprinted in their DNA. Canon is rife with gods switching around their portfolios, all the time, and they even vary from region to region. This is why religion is SO important to gods - the Dogma of the church sets the tone of things, not some sort of cosmic rulebook.
For instance, on some worlds, (core) Bane could be seen as a liberator and savior deity. If the humans (or whatever) of that world were oppressed, and they had a cult to Bane, and managed to break-free from their oppressors by organizing under Bane's banner, then that is what would be 'correct' for that world (and he may steer that new culture into a backlash-style tyrannical culture of it's own, oppressing their former masters). In fact, something akin to that occurred amongst the Gith - they became very similar to the people who enslaved them.
In this fashion, deities can arise 'spontaneously' (like tribal totems) - by worshiping something, you begin it on its ascension. The power comes from mortals, not the gods.
You want proof? Suppose you could do something extremely silly, like... I don't know... make mortals forget all about a god. The god doesn't become less powerful - it becomes powerless within that sphere (atrophies is a good word). It may not be dead (gone comatose in the astral), if it has worshipers elsewhere, but it loses all power within the sphere it lost it's faithful.
So that is just one way 'mortals can kill gods' - simply by losing Faith. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 20:39:17
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| I agree with your cosmic lava lamp idea, Markus. But you've got to draw the line somewhere, you've got to have some fixed absolute to use as a reference in a universe full of relative things. Faerûn has gods whose names and powers we know and can (for the most part) treat as constants. I suspect that once a godling's faith reaches a certain threshold it generates its own momentum: in your above example Corellon would "reject" the faith of murder, the divine energy would naturally flow to a god of assassins instead. Principle of similarity, like attracts like (and consequently rejects the un-like) ... in short, I suspect divine energy flow is something of a self-ordering system entirely dictated by consensus of faith. Corellon would not be able to digest assassin faith unless it was embraced to some degree by his "dogma" and church. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Mar 2011 20:40:31 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 20:41:54
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Kick arse.
I knew I liked you for a reason MT. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 02:07:09
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| Cavatina Xarran killed Selvatarm in Sacrifice of the Widow and Halisstra Melarn killed Eilistraee in Ascendency of the Last (though I don't Halisstra quite countas as a mortal. Both books from the Lady Penitent trilogy. Also, I read the Quilue Veladorn trapped Ghaunadar's avatar somewhere. I don't know what novel or seres that's in though. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 05:32:22
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Things are rolling around to my way of thinking here... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 10:30:53
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quote:
... in short, I suspect divine energy flow is something of a self-ordering system entirely dictated by consensus of faith. Corellon would not be able to digest assassin faith unless it was embraced to some degree by his "dogma" and church.
It's even represented by a feat in 3rd edition - Power of Faerun details the issue of heresy against the greater body of a deity's church. Basically, if you're a heretic (i.e. operate outside the normal bounds of your faith), then taking the feat means you can violate the alignment requirements of the deity and don't need to atone for misdeeds.
However, the price is that when you die, you are counted as False unless your deity intervenes with Kelemvor personally. This requires your deity to adopt your beliefs into the larger body of the faith and the deity's own portfolio/personality, thereby resulting in a potentially fundamental change to the outlook of the god.
So in the example of Corellon, he would have to accept the heresy as truth, which would have the result of changing his portfolios and fundamental essence to account for the new order of things. Which he may choose not to do. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 02:00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Cavatina Xarran killed Selvatarm in Sacrifice of the Widow and Halisstra Melarn killed Eilistraee in Ascendency of the Last (though I don't Halisstra quite count as as a mortal. Both books from the Lady Penitent trilogy. Also, I read the Quilue Veladorn trapped Ghaunadar's avatar somewhere. I don't know what novel or seres that's in though.
Halisstra was indeed still mortal, although twisted into an abomination as Lolth's "Champion". However, When she "killed" eilistraee, it was Quilue's body that was beheaded, with Eilistraee's essence inside. This is actually the definition of an Avatar- a godly essence inside the body of a mortal follower- and even a Chosen can't contain a god's ENTIRE essence. (Not even Elminster could do that, and he IS the most powerful Chosen around!) This would mean that all Halisstra killed was an avatar of Eilistraee.
Also, yes, the Eilistraeeans DID trap Ghaunadaur, inside his own pit of madness. This was in Ascendancy of the Last, the third (and IMO worst) of the Lady Penitant books. They also caused all of Kiaransalee's followers to "forget" her, thus destroying her, as well. This actually makes sense for some gods, and is probably the only way I would ever allow PC's to "kill" a god in my campaigns. Sort of like in the mini-series movie Merlin, where he tells Maab that everyone is simply going to forget her, which caused her to fade away. However, even with a Hig Magic ritual like that, one would assume that not ALL traces of the deity are erased. It would not, for example, cause statues or other images of the god to disappear. Nor do I suspect that written accounts about the god would, either. So in theory, the god could be re-discovered, either by it's own former followers, or by new ones.
And I suspect that an assassin's faith in Corellon as aiding his kills would be re-directed to Erevan Ilesere, who is the closest the elves have to a god of assassins(thieves and rogues).
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 18:16:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
...in your above example Corellon would "reject" the faith of murder, the divine energy would naturally flow to a god of assassins instead. Principle of similarity, like attracts like (and consequently rejects the un-like) ... in short, I suspect divine energy flow is something of a self-ordering system entirely dictated by consensus of faith. Corellon would not be able to digest assassin faith unless it was embraced to some degree by his "dogma" and church.
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
So in the example of Corellon, he would have to accept the heresy as truth, which would have the result of changing his portfolios and fundamental essence to account for the new order of things. Which he may choose not to do.
Who said anything about Corellon liking it? Or even having any say in the matter?
My point was that mortal worship flows toward whoever the person believes it should, regardless of whether that is 'the truth' or not.
Corellon might be VERY angry when the theoretical 'Assassin for Elves' dies, but while that character is still alive, its 'Faith' flows toward whoever it worships, REGARDLESS. (And BTW, I'm pretty sure the Eldreth Veluthra still venerate Corellon).
Gods have a choice of accepting their faithful, after they die - that is official canon. However, nowhere does it say that the energy produced by any act of worship (including simply believing the god is empowered by that aspect of its portfolio) can be denied by the god.
In fact, fantasy literature is rife with characters who's gods don't really agree with or like them (Elric is a classic example). Deities simply do NOT have a choice in these matters - energy flows in the direction the provider of said energy believes it should. In fact, we could even theorize that deities themselves can be 'corrupted' by this energy flow, IF it is against their normal set of beliefs.
This means that heresies can be particularly damaging, and it also provides us with a rather interesting scenario: Suppose a god's enemy purposely has his own mortal followers establish a heresy, just to corrupt the other deity?
In fact... I think this may be the mechanic behind 'divine absorption'. 
What happens when you convince a majority of mortal believers that two powers are one and the same?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2011 18:19:57 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 19:15:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Cavatina Xarran killed Selvatarm in Sacrifice of the Widow and Halisstra Melarn killed Eilistraee in Ascendency of the Last (though I don't Halisstra quite count as as a mortal. Both books from the Lady Penitent trilogy. Also, I read the Quilue Veladorn trapped Ghaunadar's avatar somewhere. I don't know what novel or seres that's in though.
Halisstra was indeed still mortal, although twisted into an abomination as Lolth's "Champion". However, When she "killed" eilistraee, it was Quilue's body that was beheaded, with Eilistraee's essence inside. This is actually the definition of an Avatar- a godly essence inside the body of a mortal follower- and even a Chosen can't contain a god's ENTIRE essence. (Not even Elminster could do that, and he IS the most powerful Chosen around!) This would mean that all Halisstra killed was an avatar of Eilistraee.
Also, yes, the Eilistraeeans DID trap Ghaunadaur, inside his own pit of madness. This was in Ascendancy of the Last, the third (and IMO worst) of the Lady Penitant books. They also caused all of Kiaransalee's followers to "forget" her, thus destroying her, as well. This actually makes sense for some gods, and is probably the only way I would ever allow PC's to "kill" a god in my campaigns. Sort of like in the mini-series movie Merlin, where he tells Maab that everyone is simply going to forget her, which caused her to fade away. However, even with a Hig Magic ritual like that, one would assume that not ALL traces of the deity are erased. It would not, for example, cause statues or other images of the god to disappear. Nor do I suspect that written accounts about the god would, either. So in theory, the god could be re-discovered, either by it's own former followers, or by new ones.
And I suspect that an assassin's faith in Corellon as aiding his kills would be re-directed to Erevan Ilesere, who is the closest the elves have to a god of assassins(thieves and rogues).
I quite agree with you that Ascendency of the Last was utter BS. And I didn't like the ending to Storm of the Dead either. In truth, they should have never killed Eilistraee, Kiaransalee, r Vhaeraun. I alo believe that Kiaransalee didn't completely fade from existence as everyone rembered that the goddess was a she, they rembered her dogma and everything, remvered what she was a goddes of, and rembered thay her clerics were called Crones. Isn't that enough to keep a deity alive anyway? But in my Realms that hardlydifferes from the canon Reals, they all get ressurected by the events of the Spell Plague. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 20:49:07
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I seem to have missed Alystra's last post - glad you quoted it.
Nice call about Eilistraee and Quilue. I keep saying that a Chosen is just an Avatar with self-will.
In-fact, come to think of it... perhaps ALL Avatars are of this nature; maybe gods don't simply create Avatars, they have to nurture a mortal to hold some of their divine essence.
Then, after the mortal dies, they become more like what our (D&D) concept of an Avatar should be. So the difference between an Avatar and a Chosen is that a chosen hasn't died yet (except in the case of Selûne... but you know something... that STILL works...).
I like this model - it works nicely for Saints as well (Chosen in life, Avatars in death).
Anyhow, good catch Alystra - Quilue could NOT have contained a deity's entire essence - we know this from prior canon. Liriel Baenre was another that couldn't contain as much 'of her god' (Lolth) as the goddess wanted to fill her with (it nearly killed her). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Mar 2011 02:03:34 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 21:20:30
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| But when a Chosen dies, their soul goes to that deity's domain. How are they an avatar in death? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 01:45:14
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MT, that's actually one of the reasons I feel it's such an impossibility for mortals to actually destroy(kill) gods. When fighting an avatar, you're basically fighting a mortal body with a piece of the god's divine essence in it, which is not the same thing as fighting the god itself. As we saw in the time of troubles, all of the gods at that time were reduced to acting as avatars, stripped of most of their divine power. This is why some of them were able to be killed. If they had held onto their full power during that time, not only would it have likely killed the mortals they resided in, but they probably would not have died themselves. Liriel is just one example of that. Elminster and Midnight are two more. And Quilue. That makes at least four- five if you count Iyachtu Xvim(Baneson). He would have technically been an avatar from birth.
TW, I'm not entirely sure I agree with MT's assessment on that, but I can see where he's coming from. We don't really know what happens to Chosen when they die- it's entirely possible that they become aspects of their deity, effectively making them avatars. But they would probably be limited to the deity's home plane, or might only be able to appear on the Prime for short periods. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 01:49:05
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| If I recall correctly, wasn't Quilue possessed by Eiluxtraee? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 02:26:07
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| Yes, which is why I belive it was only an avatar that was killed. Since Eilistraee was merely possessing a mortal body (and not even fully, at that, or it would have killed Quale, most likely) it would have made the body in question her avatar, by the definition of the term.an avatar is a god in mortal form, thus Quale was one while the goddess was in possession of her. Also, given that her realm still exists, it would imply that she is also still alive in some form, though perhaps hiding or taken in by Corellon. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Mortals challenging the Gods.
