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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 02:12:06
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I've read through Cult of the Dragon, and even as a Chosen of Mystra (which is when he WAS actually at the height of his power, before she stripped him of it) Sammy did not strike me as being any more powerful that Elmisnter, who is generally regarded as one of THE most powerful mortals in Faerun. And even HE would have been slapped around like a red-headed stepchild but Lathander! (And that Avatar stat only proves it!) To be honest, I don't see anyone lower than demi-god status themselves- and more likely one backed by a full god, at that- doing more than making a Greater deity go "Ouch, that stung." Not even on an avatar. Karsus does not count, since his spell technically made him a god for that brief moment. He WAS siphoning off a good portion of Mystryl's power for that, after all!
And for the record, being prepared to face a large number of priests and Harpers is NOT the same as being prepared to face a godly avatar! Most mortals should (rightly) be wetting their pants at that very THOUGHT of an angry god showing up to flick them off the face of the planet..... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 04:48:22
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I guess I'm just spoiled on the days of Greater Gods having stats like:
Avatar of Boccob, Greater God (of Greyhawk)
HD 14; THAC0 13; SpA MU 18; MV 18"; AC -2; hp 62; # AT 1; Dmg 1d6+1 to 4 (strength bonus + variable magical bonus); MR 50%; SZ M; Str 16, Int 20, Wis 18, Dex 18, Con 16, Cha 18
Or full blown gods such as:
Goddess Takhisis, Greater Goddess (of Krynn)
40th level Black Robe Wizard/ 40th level Cleric
AC -10
HP 999
etc...
You see, these were beings that, while Gods, were not our modern concept of Gods. That is why the ancient Netherese and such as the Imaskari COULD do battle against the Gods.
Many people who play D&D today started with the 3rd Edition of the Rules...which changed MANY things about mortal/godly relations. The Gods suddenly became far beyond the ken of mortals...where previously they had been only beyond the power of anything short of the greatest of mortals.
And by the way, when The Cult of the Dragon book was published, Lathander's Avatar was:
Lathander, Avatar (Greater God)
Fighter 36, Cleric 25
Hardly a dominating force against Sammaster who was:
Sammaster (NOT A LICH)
human male Necromancer (no opposition schools!) 26 (or greater at the time of the fight?)
Now Lathander had about +200 HP on Sammaster and some other things; but it hardly would amount to the slaughter as written in the book. In fact, Sammaster's spell power EXCEEDED Lathander's Avatar in all regards...and sorry to say it, but Fighter Levels don't count for a lot at that level of power.
Again though, this was before the coming of 3rd Edition D&D...so you perhaps get a better feeling for my distaste and disregard for how the whole thing went down.
I mean, four drops of blood? Lets seriously consider that a moment... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 05:16:23
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| Dalor, I'm coming from the same era you did- I started playing during the 2nd ed era as well. I have- and have USED- all of the old Deities and Demigods, Faiths and Pantheons, Hallowed Ground, and other supplements. Monster Mythology seemed one of the most realistic to me, because the stats were closer to what I thought a god's should be. But honestly, I always thought the god stats in all of those books were way too low as compared to mortals. And if one could continue the progression with gods, they would soon see that even an avatar would be WAAAYY out of the league of all but the most ridiculously munchkin-level mortals. Even back then, there was a guideline that gods should NEVER be viewed as mere monsters to slay, nor should mortals be able to cause them much harm unless there is a SERIOUSLY good explanation (like those given above). Using Lathander's avatar as an example, (And let's just think about that for a moment, shall we? Ftr36/Clr25 vs a mere Nec26? In sheer combat ability ALONE Sammy's outclassed.) let's extend the THACO, AC, and other stats to what they would be with a continued adjustment. You'll get the idea pretty quick. It's one reason I despised the LP books- even wit that god-slaying sword, with Eilistraee in Quilue's body, all Halisstra could have slain was her avatar, NOT the goddess herself! In fact, I really think that gods were one of the things 3rd ed got right. It made them MUCH more difficult to challenge on an even half-way level playing field, much less to actually hurt or kill. I just wish it was more consistent in the lore. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 05:21:14
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Ah well...give me a level 26 wizard any day and I'll have an Avatar sweating it in 1st or 2nd...or running like hell in 3rd or 4th. 
Suppose I can just agree to disagree with ya. 
EDIT: that should have read "...or I'LL be running like hell in 3rd or 4th."  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 06 Mar 2011 22:20:44 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 05:30:59
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| To each his own, I suppose. Dunno about 4th, (I REFUSE to play it EVER AGAIN.) but I guess I just find the idea of a necromancer being more than a minor annoyance to a greater SUN god to be silly. (Especially after he went lichy. That's just funny- Lather could burn him to a crispy well-done piece of lich-meat in a heartbeat, if he felt like it.) It's not just about power to me (though that's a big part of it in dealing with folks who literally MAKE worlds) it's about WHOM you're dealing with. You don't pick a fight with the one guy in the multi-verse who uses the power you're weakest against. Even in Pokemon, most people know better. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 20:30:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
To each his own, I suppose. Dunno about 4th, (I REFUSE to play it EVER AGAIN.) but I guess I just find the idea of a necromancer being more than a minor annoyance to a greater SUN god to be silly. (Especially after he went lichy. That's just funny- Lather could burn him to a crispy well-done piece of lich-meat in a heartbeat, if he felt like it.) It's not just about power to me (though that's a big part of it in dealing with folks who literally MAKE worlds) it's about WHOM you're dealing with. You don't pick a fight with the one guy in the multi-verse who uses the power you're weakest against. Even in Pokemon, most people know better.
Likewise. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 22:18:58
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Well pulled out 1st Deities and Demigods and looked at deity powers, IIRC 2nd did not change much.
PowerS:
Command
Comprehend languages
Detect alignment
Gate
Geas
Quest
Teleport
True seeing
All instant and at will.
Saving throw only fail on a natural one
It is hard for me to picture killing any deity in 4 rounds or less. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 22:21:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well pulled out 1st Deities and Demigods and looked at deity powers, IIRC 2nd did not change much.
PowerS:
Command
Comprehend languages
Detect alignment
Gate
Geas
Quest
Teleport
True seeing
All instant and at will.
Saving throw only fail on a natural one
It is hard for me to picture killing any deity in 4 rounds or less.
I was talking about rules editions and not rounds (if you were talking to me anyway). 
EDIT:
though I'd be glad to walk you through the mechanics for killing almost anything in a couple rounds for 1st Edition though...some aspects of Magic in that game are quite broken and allow for truly horrendous things to happen! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 06 Mar 2011 22:23:56 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 22:36:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Ah well...give me a level 26 wizard any day and I'll have an Avatar sweating it in 1st or 2nd...or running like hell in 3rd or 4th.
*Blink* I believe this is your post.
Though that is not killing a deity. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 22:49:50
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Killing an avatar only annoys the deity. Another avatar can be deployed instantly, and each one can summon all sorts of celestials, servants, and priestly sorts. Multiple avatars can converge on a threat and they can even fetch help from allied deities when necessary. Megamortals might indeed paste an avatar; and the Goddess of Magic (by any name) has established a history of being stupid and incompetent (ie: killed) ... but nobody can face multiple avatars (and whatever extra firepower they bring along), whether it be consecutively or simultaneously.
Sometimes the utterly improbable just has to happen to make the story work. Fantasy heroism is supposed to be about somehow being special and succeeding at impossible tasks; anything less would be mundane. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 23:06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Ah well...give me a level 26 wizard any day and I'll have an Avatar sweating it in 1st or 2nd...or running like hell in 3rd or 4th.
*Blink* I believe this is your post.
Though that is not killing a deity.
Yep, my post...but I was talking about rules editions really, and not rounds. In 3rd or 4th Edition a 26th level wizard is hopelessly doomed against a God! LOL
In 2nd Edition also doomed most likely (though not against Avatars)...but in 1st Edition, few Gods had the level of ability belonging to a 26th level wizard.
One of the reasons they changed magic in 2nd edition was that in 1st Edition it was FAR too overwhelming at higher levels. There were no die level limits for things as simple as magic missile; meaning a 26th level wizard was firing 13d4+13 damage of magic missile (which would also not meet magic resistance because the caster's level would outstrip such)...with no save; and that is just a first level spell. So about 45 damage or thereabouts with no save...and using the right sequence of spells, a 26th level wizard would have about 14-21 segments to cast any number of spells he is able with Time Stop...and the rules don't even dissallow for a wizard to cast multiple Time Stops, one within the bounds of the next...
Even if he got off only six Magic Missile Spells, then his damage is roughly 273 points with no magic resistance and no saving throw...which means the Avatar of Lathander is toast.
The spell that Sammaster cast by the way seemed to be a Spell Wheel (perhaps augmented with Contingency magic of some sort), which has a much longer casting time than Time Stop normally.
Ok...my munchkinism is hurting even my eyes. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 04:19:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I believethat's precisely why that was changed for 2nd ed. It was so ridiculously easy to kill anything and everything, that it was no longer believable or fun.
I grant you that...truly it was hard to find something to challenge a high level character wizard in 1st Edition AD&D. Other characters could still be in trouble, but a high level wizard had little to fear as long as they were paranoid enough! 
I guess that is what appealed to me though: the reward of power!
It was DAMNABLE hard to get a wizard to a level where they could survive well and prosper! Once there, I thought it only fitting that the likes of Vecna and others could challenge the gods and even become a god by self-apotheosis.
Even in the new world of Golarion, the "Last Azlanti" known as Aroden (think I have that right) reached unimaginable heights of power as a mortal before he ever became a God.
I often don't talk much about my all time favorite character (my namesake); but I felt somewhat adrift and all after the rules changed and he lost so much power...of course after I found the right magical combinations in 2nd Edition AD&D it again felt somewhat "right" for a character of his level to be able to challenge the Gods...many of whom didn't have his level of magical ability.
With the coming of 3rd, that all changed for the good. There was just no way for a wizard to do what I had done before; without being MUCH higher level.
So, I go back to my original question; why the big change? Did so many games go the route of years of playing that resulted in characters that had nothing to challenge them any longer? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 05:07:50
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| That's probably an accurate guess, I'd say. I happen to know at least one player (my hubby) whose character became so powerful under 1st ed/2nd ed rules that she was literally killing gods on their home planes. Artemis, Anubis, and multiple avatars of Tiamat, just to name a few. But that gets old after a while, and then where's the challenge? Where's the FUN??! So I think it was a good thing that they toned down the power-level mortals could achieve, and upped the power of the gods. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 05:11:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
That's probably an accurate guess, I'd say. I happen to know at least one player (my hubby) whose character became so powerful under 1st ed/2nd ed rules that she was literally killing gods on their home planes. Artemis, Anubis, and multiple avatars of Tiamat, just to name a few. But that gets old after a while, and then where's the challenge? Where's the FUN??! So I think it was a good thing that they toned down the power-level mortals could achieve, and upped the power of the gods.
Well, my solution was to make other characters...leave alone the great achievements of my old character, and leave him behind as well; only to play new and exciting characters too!
Had I continued to play Dalor Darden ONLY, I would never have played the likes of Maelkith Karn, Grayson Haeldreth, Andrik Krage, Old Alzheimer or any number of others!
From a money approach, I see the reasons for the edition changes I guess...but from a mechanics point, mechanics are only there to be a rough guide for story! Right? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 06:37:29
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| Yes and no. The story can exist with or without the mechanics. The problem comes in when the writer WANTS the mortal to be challenging gods. Then the mechanics have to be created to make that possible in the game, whether it's actually realistic or not. I try to stay away from that myself. My HB world has many gods, but I have NEVER given stats to ANY of them. Basic portfolio descriptions and ranks, sure, but no stats for PC's to exploit. And that's how I like my games. The gods are there, often physically present (my version of Erevan Ilisere's avatar appears quite frequently, lol!) and meddle often in mortal affairs, but they remain untouchable to the mortals of the world. Even when they appear, there is always the sense that they could easily flick the PCs like a flea. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 14:12:26
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Excellent posts, Dalor! Not to worry though, the Avatar are still quite easily crushable in 3.x. I'll throw up a combat run-through this afternoon. It's easy to agree to disagree with posters like Alystra; she bases her opinions on how she would like the game to be, as opposed to the way the game IS.
And the game IS brilliant enough to be able to encompass the full gamut of fantasy storytelling; from low-level, deus ex machina type games like Alystra's, to rich, complex games like yours, Dalor. |
Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 07 Mar 2011 14:17:50 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 18:03:29
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| This isn't cannon, but in the Icewind Dale 2 CRPG I believe you get to fight Iyachtu Xvim. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 18:05:20
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Oh and in my home campaign, my players are currently fighting an aspect of Kurtalmak, deity of the Kobolds, in his home domain in Hell (they had to fight hordes of Kobolds before getting to him that happened to be kobolds they killed before - hordes of them jumping the the characters and stabbing them with knives lol - it was great). Again, not cannon.  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36966 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 18:35:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Excellent posts, Dalor! Not to worry though, the Avatar are still quite easily crushable in 3.x. I'll throw up a combat run-through this afternoon. It's easy to agree to disagree with posters like Alystra; she bases her opinions on how she would like the game to be, as opposed to the way the game IS.
And the game IS brilliant enough to be able to encompass the full gamut of fantasy storytelling; from low-level, deus ex machina type games like Alystra's, to rich, complex games like yours, Dalor.
There is no need at all for posts like this.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 18:57:01
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The only fault I can find with Alystra's gaming is the unusual preponderance of drow. Even this small issue is compensated by a generous helping of pirates, swordplay, and dwarven saddlepulting.
The rules governing deities and powers are deliberately vague; some people (DMs, players, and authors) think mortals can kill gods, some don't. OD&D and every edition since (perhaps not 4E) has provided rules for mortal ascension into exalted divinity; the canon in numerous rulebooks, adventures, and novels often supports the notion that a mortal can kill a god. If you stat something out (even if it's a god) then you're inviting an inevitable challenge from PCs to power up and kill it.
Having said all that, I'm of the opinion that gods trump mortals by definition; killing their avatars does little more than inconvenience and anger them.
The Faerūnian gods have always been integral to the Realms and they are not replaced or shuffled around without good reason. Often that reason involves telling a compelling story to make the setting vibrant and entertaining - those are worthy reasons which I personally think justify the occasional deicide. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 19:03:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik OD&D and every edition since (perhaps not 4E) has provided rules for mortal ascension into exalted divinity;
4E Epic Destinies all have Immortal in some way as a trait (if not all, then most) and one particular Epic Destiny is Demigod  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 19:10:33
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| Thank you for single-handedly talking me out of using 4e for my next game. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 19:13:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thank you for single-handedly talking me out of using 4e for my next game.
Worry not Markus - that isn't until level 21 and that will take you a few years to get to assuming weekly gaming approximately 4 hours per session, and if you want to play up to there. Heroic and Paragon tiers are fine as the only tiers you play in (not a lot of games go epic). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 20:06:16
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My games always peter-out around Lev. 12-14 anyways.
I was JK anyhow, I am developing my own (classless) hybrid system, with bits and pieces of several others, and I may be borrowing liberally from 4e for my magic (I had an epiphany the other day.)
Really... I did... her name was Epiphany... we are going out again on Friday.
EDIT: Ack! Almost forget to stay on-topic! 
In my setting, the gods are actually Immortals - beings of incredibly high power, but NOT Divine ('True Gods' are beyond mortal comprehension). Ergo, a person can literally 'challenge the Gods', and will probably get their butt handed to them, but it is possible, despite my own personal dislike of that notion (if I made my system/world 'all about me', I'd be the only one who wants to play in it, which makes all my work useless).
In fact, a major part of my mythos concerns a certain 'saint' from the church of the Sun god, who was greatly disappointed about the 'state of the heavens' once he ascended (he found 'no-one home'). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2011 20:23:34 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 20:14:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Excellent posts, Dalor! Not to worry though, the Avatar are still quite easily crushable in 3.x. I'll throw up a combat run-through this afternoon. It's easy to agree to disagree with posters like Alystra; she bases her opinions on how she would like the game to be, as opposed to the way the game IS.
And the game IS brilliant enough to be able to encompass the full gamut of fantasy storytelling; from low-level, deus ex machina type games like Alystra's, to rich, complex games like yours, Dalor.
Let me make one thing clear. I do NOT run deus ex machina games. Perhaps it may seem that way from my earlier post, but that is NOT the case. While gods "do" APPEAR quite often in my games, (as avatars only) they generally do little more than show up at odd moments, make cryptic remarks to the PC's (think Dungeon Master from the old cartoon) and occasionally offer help or advice. More often than not, they appear to "screw" with the Pc's and/or get them back on track when they get too far from the general campaign. Sort of like a deific Gibbs-slap when the party gets mired in its own bumbling rut. I once had the god of mischief appear at three seperate merchant booths in a bazaar when the group spent too much time dickering in town and would not get their butts going. THAT is how I use them in my games. NOT to pull anyone's butt out of the fire, or to provide some BBEG that can't be beaten.
I like to think that my games ARE rich and complex, to be frank. I've had deurgar raiders try to start wars between neighboring kingdoms of humans and dwarves by using their enlargement to have both sides blaming the other for caravan losses, shadowy thieves guilds running arquebus smuggling rings into expansionist empires, and runaway royals being hunted by rival groups of hired bounty hunters and angry siblings at the same time. Not to mention the odd fanatic cult and band of stylish lady burglers who leave calling cards and pin the blame on housemaids. Seems plenty complex and rich to me. And they are CERTAINLY not "low-level" as you put it. I have quite often had PC's reach at least 10th level and beyond. (I've rarely actually killed one- don't need to, as most of my players create new ones often enough to "retire" the old ones.) Just so you know.
@ Arik: Well, I DO have an entire kingdom in my world run by piratical drow, but it's hardly the focus of any of my games. I've only run a game in that region ONCE. Everything else has been in a relatively "quiet" kingdom halfway across the world, and nary a drow to be seen! (Unless you count the occassional Pc, of course.) There do seem to be a lot of orcs, though....
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 20:26:08
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Silly.
Everyone knows that Pirate-drow are only cool when pitted against dino-riding monkey ninjas! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 20:34:29
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Who doesn't love orcs? Ye can never have too many orcs.
My games seem to suffer from an unusual preponderance of Giths. Nary a drow to be seen anywhere (as it should be!), though seemingly a Gith (well, actually a pack of Giths) constantly shifting around where ye don't want 'em. People have complained about this on occasion.
Not so many direct divine manifestations, sort of a plausible deniability, ye can never be sure whether a god really had anything to do with something happening because there always seem to be other not-unreasonable explanations. Most of the gods are largely disinterested and unconcerned with what my PCs do anyhow, though there have been a couple exceptional instances. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 20:46:59
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| Odd, I've had some giths running around loose once or twice, myslef. Wonder if they're the same ones? Anywhos, I've had several minor cults appear, but no direct appearances byt their gods yet. Mostly just the ones the PC's themselves follow, or that "Yodagnome" deity. (He's actually an elven god in disguise, which makes it even funnier when he shows up. No one knows what to make of him, lol!) I DID once have a player summon her shadow-demon henchman and get the god of death by mistake. Turns out they share the same name..... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Mortals challenging the Gods.
