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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 01:05:43
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Not including the Time of Troubles, how many instances of direct confrontation have occurred between mortals and gods in the Forgotten Realms?
I know about the Karsus/Mystra incident and the Bhaal Bane, Mykrul quest for divinity. I also recently read about Sammaster going up against Lathander. Have there been other instances of this sort of thing happening?
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 01:16:59
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Didn't Szass Tam go against Bane in a recent novel?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 01:17:34
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Not including the Time of Troubles, how many instances of direct confrontation have occurred between mortals and gods in the Forgotten Realms?
I know about the Karsus/Mystra incident and the Bhaal Bane, Mykrul quest for divinity. I also recently read about Sammaster going up against Lathander. Have there been other instances of this sort of thing happening?
Szass Tam and Bane in Undead. But Bane felt amused, rather than threatened.
Cale and Mask. Cale punched him, actually. 'Tis in one of the books in the TW triolgy; though I can't recall exactly which of the 3.
There's also that former Chosen of Mystra [in one of the old Elminster novels] fighting Mystra herself, [disguised as Myrjala, if I recall it right]. Of course, it's obvious who emerged the victor.
And I'm having a feeling soon we'll see Telamont confronting Shar. The signs are there... |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 05 Mar 2011 01:39:23 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 02:39:55
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If you count Mulhorandi legends, there have been a few of the Divine Rulers of that realm slain by "mere mortals" but I'm unsure of details.
Also, related to the same, there were the battles of the Imaskari against the Manifestations of the Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons.
If you count fiends as "Gods" then there have been MANY of those battles waged.
Personally, I feel Sammaster got a bum wrap against Lathander, an Avatar should have not had so easy a time against a wizard that was supposed to be quite possibly one of the most powerful ever to walk.
Back on track...Tiamat (her Avatar?) was defeated by Gareth Dragonsbane and his friends on her home plane. That same man and his companions also defeated Orcus and Baphomet I believe...though I won't say I remember precisely.
I am thinking of a couple more, but I want to make sure I'm right before I post them here...I'll check on it. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 02:47:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Personally, I feel Sammaster got a bum wrap against Lathander, an Avatar should have not had so easy a time against a wizard that was supposed to be quite possibly one of the most powerful ever to walk.
My thoughts exactly.
It was way too easy for Lathander that it looked like he was crushing a mere insect. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 05:00:37
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Lathander should win still, right. But Sammaster should have at the least been able to hurt him badly---maim him, gouge his eye, disintegrate his teeth...The battle was way too easy for the god. Sammaster deserves a little credit for being one of the most powerful [albeit insane] wizards to ever walk the Realms. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 05:24:47
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Sure, Lathander should open a can of whoop ass...but the powers at Sammaster's command should have been immense...I didn't see anything truly immense against Lathander.
Hell, a 10th level fighter with a +5 sword could have made Lathander bleed...and that is the extent of what Sammaster managed; just to make him drop a few bits of blood. Not a "big achievement" in my book. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 05:31:11
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| So you think that a mortal (even undead one) is the match of an actual god? I don't see it. ToT notwithstanding, most gods are FAR beyond anything a mortal can ever hope to achieve, Lathander included. The whole concept that a mere mortal, no matter how powerful, can ever truly hurt a god (who by his/her very nature can basically treat mortals like fleas) is almost ludicrous. Think of it this way- gods can create entire worlds at will; why SHOULDN'T they be far beyond the abilities of mortals to challenge? It's not just a question of simple power, but of the nature of gods themselves. Even an avatar is usually far more powerful than any mortal could ever hope to defeat. There are exceptions, I suppose, but Sammaster's not THAT powerful. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 06:11:33
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I guess you just came into D&D at a different time than me.
When I started playing D&D, mortals COULD challenge the Gods...and often did. Win? Not really...but challenge.
As for the fight between Sammaster and Lathander...yes, I believe Sammaster should have been shown to be more powerful. I'm not sure if you have read the description of the fight...but it isn't like Sammaster went after Lathander...but Lathander's priests summoned an Avatar of Lathander to fight Sammaster when they couldn't handle the fella.
It felt contrived and not well representative of the power Sammaster was said to hold...and all he managed was to make Lathander's Avatar bleed slightly...and I mean SLIGHTLY.
Had he faced Lathander directly, then Hells yes; he should be promptly smoked and made into ash...but this was a HASTILY summoned Avatar on a battlefield. Not a holy shrine even...or the place of some historical significance to Lathander.
In our own worldly mythology the Gods were challenged (and sometimes defeated!) by mortals...and that is how I like it in my fantasy games.
People cry foul when a Chosen of Mystra "saves the day"...but if the Gods are so willingly brought into conflict with the mortal world; then what is the point of aspiring to greatness when a flock of "the faithful" can summon their god to smack you down.
Crap situation that... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 06:40:39
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Well said, Dalor.
Also, Alystra, remember that Karsus---a mere mortal---once challenged and killed [indirectly] the then goddess of magic. And it wasn't just her avatar, but Mystryl herself. Sammaster might not be as powerful as Karsus, but he was close. Given that it was only an avatar of Lathander who came and fought the mad lich, Sammaster should have dealt a serious blow on him, not [as Dalor pointed out] a slight bleeding. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 06:40:59
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| Granted I haven't read the encounter in question, but was Sammy boy at all prepared for the possibility of the avatar of a greater god being summoned in the fight? While I'm not completely opposed to mortals challenging gods, I think it should be done with preparation and preferably with another god backing them up during the fight. Caught by surprise, contrived or no, he should have been crushed. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 07:18:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Granted I haven't read the encounter in question, but was Sammy boy at all prepared for the possibility of the avatar of a greater god being summoned in the fight? While I'm not completely opposed to mortals challenging gods, I think it should be done with preparation and preferably with another god backing them up during the fight. Caught by surprise, contrived or no, he should have been crushed.
No god would back him up because he believed in no one.
Surprised? Maybe a little. But he was prepared to face a formidable alliance of Harpers and priests, and so he was at his most powerful stand. Here's something from the said battle [as detailed in Cult of the Dragon]:
quote:
Sammaster, seemingly untroubled, floated in midair where his steed had been, and in the twinkling of an eye a coruscating aura of ineffable blackness surrounded him, as if a cloak of night and death had been knit about his body.
I don't think he'd be untroubled if he wasn't prepared. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 07:52:27
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| He's also insane. Insanity can lead to being untroubled by things others find troubling and troubled by things others find harmless. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 07:57:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
He's also insane. Insanity can lead to being untroubled by things others find troubling and troubled by things others find harmless.
Did you forget that Kasus, who killed Mystryl, was also insane? Besides, almost all wizards are.
Sammaster's insanity hardly makes it justifiable for Lathander to crush him like a pest. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 08:00:56
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Kasus didn't kill Mystryl, Mystryl killed herself.
And no, Sammy's insanity isn't justification for it. Lathander being one of the most powerful gods in toril is. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 08:11:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Kasus didn't kill Mystryl, Mystryl killed herself.
That's why I said indirectly. She wouldn't have killed herself had Karsus not cast his avatar spell.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
And no, Sammy's insanity isn't justification for it. Lathander being one of the most powerful gods in toril is.
Again, it was only his avatar. And Sammaster was at the height of his power then. I wouldn't expect him to win, but he shouldn't have been smashed so easily, either.
I suggest you read that said battle in Cult of the Dragon. If you don't have the tome, you can perform a search here at the keep, for someone posted it long ago. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 15:18:12
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| Does Finder vs Moander count? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 15:33:38
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| In Re: Sammaster v Lathander, IIRC, Sammaster did manage to wound the avatar, and the drops of blood he spilt are one of the Church's most prized artifacts. I remember reading the account and thinking that Sammaster was crazy powerful to have wounded the avatar of a greater power at all. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 15:42:36
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I was under the impression that an avatar is invested with a variable amount of power from it's deity, based on the said deities discretion. If so I could see Lathander making the avatar as powerful as it needed to be to stomp Sammaster. The guy is greater (or Intermediate?) power after all.
Now if Lathander was a Demigod I would assume things would be as lot different. Honestly I think a Demigod should be the cutoff for any mortal to realistically expect to win a direct confrontation(without divine assistance) and even then it should be extremely difficult.
Also just to add another layer of complexity. I don't know if Heroes/Quasi Deities (divine rank 0) qualify as mortals but they perhaps can accomplish even more. |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
744 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 16:14:11
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| Didn't one of the mage-kings (or whatever they were called) of Imaskar actually fight Horus-Re in some famous battle in pre-history? |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 16:53:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Cale and Mask. Cale punched him, actually. 'Tis in one of the books in the TW triolgy; though I can't recall exactly which of the 3.
Shadowbred I think.
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 16:54:23
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Having just read Powers and Pantheons and Faiths and Avatars, which carefully stats out the avatars of all the gods, the impression is certainly given that avatars can be challenged and even defeated by mortals. An avatar is only a tiny portion of a deity's strength; immensely powerful yes, but completely invulnerable, I don't think so.
With regards to the controversial showdown between Lathander and Sammaster, I can't say I've read it. However, my impression would certainly be that Sammaster should have been able to put up a formidable fight. He was one of the major players in the Realms, albeit mad. He was amongst the most powerful wizards and also Chosen of Mystra at one point (if I remember correctly). Fighting an avatar isn't the same as fighting a god; it should have been an epic battle.
Several Faerunian deities were originally mortal, even ignoring the elevation fo Cyric, Kelemvor and Midnight following the Time of Troubles. Azuth and Savras are examples. Although I don't think they battled gods, surely there must have been a point during their ascendancy to godhood when their mortal powers were so formidable it would make a true god consider them a threat.
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 22:20:09
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quote:
Originally posted by MalariaMoon
Having just read Powers and Pantheons and Faiths and Avatars, which carefully stats out the avatars of all the gods, the impression is certainly given that avatars can be challenged and even defeated by mortals. An avatar is only a tiny portion of a deity's strength; immensely powerful yes, but completely invulnerable, I don't think so.
With regards to the controversial showdown between Lathander and Sammaster, I can't say I've read it. However, my impression would certainly be that Sammaster should have been able to put up a formidable fight. He was one of the major players in the Realms, albeit mad. He was amongst the most powerful wizards and also Chosen of Mystra at one point (if I remember correctly). Fighting an avatar isn't the same as fighting a god; it should have been an epic battle.
Several Faerunian deities were originally mortal, even ignoring the elevation fo Cyric, Kelemvor and Midnight following the Time of Troubles. Azuth and Savras are examples. Although I don't think they battled gods, surely there must have been a point during their ascendancy to godhood when their mortal powers were so formidable it would make a true god consider them a threat.
Maybe....but is ascendancy based on power or more so on a mortal embodying some concept, characteristic or value? Of course those qualities are not necessarily mutual exclusive to power.
EREVIS CALE QUASI SPOILER BELOW
I remember in one of the Cale novels Magadon was able to tap into the power of quasi-sentient Mythallar and I believe he ZAPPED someone (forget who) with it. I believe that someone was a Demigod. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 23:17:28
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In general no mortal can kill a deity, the rules might have evolved some over the base concept.
The base rule is/was a deity can only be killed on their home plane.
Any mortal would almost certainly need a deity slaying device, artifact of some kind.
On home place deity can, at will, teleport with no error, change terrain and conditions on home plane, and portal to another plane of allied deity should some extremely powerful mortal actually make deity believe they might lose on home plane.
Killing a deity on any other plane might disable deity for a while, however is not dead and almost certainly would extract revenge for the inconvenience. Even if the Mortal stayed in deity plan, the deity allies almost certainly would show up to kill mortal. After all they would be out of home plane and could not be killed.
Prefect dice rolling included would almost require attaching a deity with no allies of get a one attack kill.
Like I said the versions vary some and clearly deities have killed deities, however in general it should be impossible for any mortal to kill a deity unless assisted by another one.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 23:48:03
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| There's also a 4e rule that says that anyone not of epic level is completely incapable of harming a deity in any way. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 00:25:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Kasus didn't kill Mystryl, Mystryl killed herself.
That's why I said indirectly. She wouldn't have killed herself had Karsus not cast his avatar spell.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
And no, Sammy's insanity isn't justification for it. Lathander being one of the most powerful gods in toril is.
Again, it was only his avatar. And Sammaster was at the height of his power then. I wouldn't expect him to win, but he shouldn't have been smashed so easily, either.
I suggest you read that said battle in Cult of the Dragon. If you don't have the tome, you can perform a search here at the keep, for someone posted it long ago.
Only his avatar is still a Fighter 20, Cleric 20, Divine Champion 5, with a Divine rank of 17(Which makes him ridiculous in Avatar form). All known Divine immunities, Fast healing 37, Fort +60, Spell resistance 49 and spontaneous casting of divine spells. not to mention dozens of Spell like abilities that he can will instantlyas a 27th level caster.
The idea that anyone could hurt him even as an avatar is ridiculous to me. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 00:29:14
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by MalariaMoon
Having just read Powers and Pantheons and Faiths and Avatars, which carefully stats out the avatars of all the gods, the impression is certainly given that avatars can be challenged and even defeated by mortals. An avatar is only a tiny portion of a deity's strength; immensely powerful yes, but completely invulnerable, I don't think so.
With regards to the controversial showdown between Lathander and Sammaster, I can't say I've read it. However, my impression would certainly be that Sammaster should have been able to put up a formidable fight. He was one of the major players in the Realms, albeit mad. He was amongst the most powerful wizards and also Chosen of Mystra at one point (if I remember correctly). Fighting an avatar isn't the same as fighting a god; it should have been an epic battle.
Several Faerunian deities were originally mortal, even ignoring the elevation fo Cyric, Kelemvor and Midnight following the Time of Troubles. Azuth and Savras are examples. Although I don't think they battled gods, surely there must have been a point during their ascendancy to godhood when their mortal powers were so formidable it would make a true god consider them a threat.
Maybe....but is ascendancy based on power or more so on a mortal embodying some concept, characteristic or value? Of course those qualities are not necessarily mutual exclusive to power.
EREVIS CALE QUASI SPOILER BELOW
I remember in one of the Cale novels Magadon was able to tap into the power of quasi-sentient Mythallar and I believe he ZAPPED someone (forget who) with it. I believe that someone was a Demigod.
That would be Kesson Rel/Volumvax. He was not a Demi God. He was Quasi Divine with a divine rank of 0. Anyone with a Divine rank of 1 or higher is not subject to death from massive damage. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 01:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by MalariaMoon
Having just read Powers and Pantheons and Faiths and Avatars, which carefully stats out the avatars of all the gods, the impression is certainly given that avatars can be challenged and even defeated by mortals. An avatar is only a tiny portion of a deity's strength; immensely powerful yes, but completely invulnerable, I don't think so.
With regards to the controversial showdown between Lathander and Sammaster, I can't say I've read it. However, my impression would certainly be that Sammaster should have been able to put up a formidable fight. He was one of the major players in the Realms, albeit mad. He was amongst the most powerful wizards and also Chosen of Mystra at one point (if I remember correctly). Fighting an avatar isn't the same as fighting a god; it should have been an epic battle.
Several Faerunian deities were originally mortal, even ignoring the elevation fo Cyric, Kelemvor and Midnight following the Time of Troubles. Azuth and Savras are examples. Although I don't think they battled gods, surely there must have been a point during their ascendancy to godhood when their mortal powers were so formidable it would make a true god consider them a threat.
Maybe....but is ascendancy based on power or more so on a mortal embodying some concept, characteristic or value? Of course those qualities are not necessarily mutual exclusive to power.
EREVIS CALE QUASI SPOILER BELOW
I remember in one of the Cale novels Magadon was able to tap into the power of quasi-sentient Mythallar and I believe he ZAPPED someone (forget who) with it. I believe that someone was a Demigod.
That would be Kesson Rel/Volumvax. He was not a Demi God. He was Quasi Divine with a divine rank of 0. Anyone with a Divine rank of 1 or higher is not subject to death from massive damage.
OK thanks. Question what divine rank was Drasek Riven at the end? |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2011 : 01:31:17
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by MalariaMoon
Having just read Powers and Pantheons and Faiths and Avatars, which carefully stats out the avatars of all the gods, the impression is certainly given that avatars can be challenged and even defeated by mortals. An avatar is only a tiny portion of a deity's strength; immensely powerful yes, but completely invulnerable, I don't think so.
With regards to the controversial showdown between Lathander and Sammaster, I can't say I've read it. However, my impression would certainly be that Sammaster should have been able to put up a formidable fight. He was one of the major players in the Realms, albeit mad. He was amongst the most powerful wizards and also Chosen of Mystra at one point (if I remember correctly). Fighting an avatar isn't the same as fighting a god; it should have been an epic battle.
Several Faerunian deities were originally mortal, even ignoring the elevation fo Cyric, Kelemvor and Midnight following the Time of Troubles. Azuth and Savras are examples. Although I don't think they battled gods, surely there must have been a point during their ascendancy to godhood when their mortal powers were so formidable it would make a true god consider them a threat.
Maybe....but is ascendancy based on power or more so on a mortal embodying some concept, characteristic or value? Of course those qualities are not necessarily mutual exclusive to power.
EREVIS CALE QUASI SPOILER BELOW
I remember in one of the Cale novels Magadon was able to tap into the power of quasi-sentient Mythallar and I believe he ZAPPED someone (forget who) with it. I believe that someone was a Demigod.
That would be Kesson Rel/Volumvax. He was not a Demi God. He was Quasi Divine with a divine rank of 0. Anyone with a Divine rank of 1 or higher is not subject to death from massive damage.
OK thanks. Question what divine rank was Drasek Riven at the end?
Still 0. 0 Is the lowest divine rank. Obviously he absorbed only a third of the power, but there is no metric to gauge it below divine rank 0. |
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Mortals challenging the Gods.
