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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 14:33:50
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| Sorry Sage! I just don't like people applying it to the realms. But I really want this to go back to subject. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 18:25:06
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| I totally and absolutely agree with Arik. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 18:56:00
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I believe in Divolution. 
That will be in the dictionary someday. The belief that evolution occurs according to a grand design set in motion by a higher being or beings.
Races evolve - that's a simple fact of life. In fact, it has been proven that evolution occurs a heck of a lot faster then anyone thought. You can say that FR/D&D races were created magically (and most were) by 'the gods', but the moment something enters any environment it begins to evolve. Both half-Orcs and half-Elves have become viable races unto themselves (there are several canon groups of 'halfs') - is that not part of the evolutionary process? Even if two creatures need magic to 'couple', the outcome will be an evolutionary step (and most likely something non-viable - most magical creations are not meant to become races unto themselves). I site the owlbear as a classic example of something that had to have been the product of tampering, and yet has evolved and developed into a viable species.
Magic, divine intervention, disease, environmental changes, selective breeding, etc, etc... all stuff that occurs in a fantasy setting, and all contribute to evolution. They go hand-in-hand. In fact, a fantasy setting is far more ripe for dramatic evolutionary leaps then a mundane world.
As to what I was getting at last night...
Creatures evolve over generations. This means humans - of all the humanishš races - can adapt to change faster then any other humanish group (except, perhaps, halflings... but I have my suspicions about them anyway). Orcs can adapt even faster, and goblins and Kobolds fastest of all (maybe jermlaine have an advantage here, eh?)
This presents a big problem for long-lived races. Here's my theory: in the case of the dwarves, this factoid has contributed greatly to their decline. They simply can't adapt to change as rapidly as most other races, and certainly not the orcs they so often war against.
However, in the case of the elves, they have been granted a 'boon'. Elves can evolve within a single generation. The clearest example of this are the sea elves, but there are a few other examples in canon. I think of Elves as having 'morphic DNA' - they are able to shift their own physical characteristics to adapt to sudden changes. Like humans that are documented to have performed super-human feats while under stress, elves under stress go through something similar, but much more profound. Their bodies literally adapt themselves to their circumstances... which is why I think those first drow were very different then the ones we know today - for one thing, drow are shorter then other elves.
This is a magnificent evolutionary adaption; without it, the long-lived elves would have gone into much further decline then the dwarves. The lack of adaptability with Toril's ever-changing environment and conditions would have surely killed them off long ago (and the same goes for any fantasy world). Ergo, I postulate Elven evolution takes place internally, rather then externally, and happens within a single individual. It is truly a wondrous thing. Elves become precisely what they need to become.
Whether you think it was by divine tinkering, or evolution is up to you - I personally lean toward a 'blessing by Corellon' on this one. Note that elves (canonically˛) are not as affected by extremes of temperature or other variables as other humanish races - this is their body chemistry adjusting itself to the changing environmental conditions (which is only limited by time - these changes, unless assisted with divine intervention, will take weeks, months, even years sometimes, for the more extreme changes to occur).
And here's the kicker - the dwarven gods finally figured this out; they realized their people are too long-lived and their generations are too spread-out to allow for change, and so they came up with the 'Thunder Blessing' post-ToT. Not as good as the elven adaptability, but at least their birthrates are up to snuff now.
š Humanish: We need a term for 'humans and demi-humans', and 'humanoids' is already taken by the ugly crowd. Its just so much of a mouthful to to both type and say the long way.
˛ The 2e Complete Book of Elves goes into the subject of elven tolerances very well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 19:06:34
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| That's more like adaptation. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 22:32:09
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So is the chameleon's ability to change its color, but that adaption was derived through evolution.
What I am talking about is a permanent change in one's physiology, like going from breathing air or breathing water (which elves can do, apparently at-will). If a creature is going to permanently take on a new form and live a new life in that form, to me that is more like an evolutionary process (especially since this practice has lead to entire sub-races).
I do not think they undergo these changes lightly. I think in the case of VERY dramatic changes, they have to switch their primary allegiance to a different member of the Seldarine (thats pure conjecture). I also don't think its so easy to 'change back' - possible, but certainly not easy.
I also think this is a throw-back ability to their Fey heritage. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Mar 2011 22:43:31 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 22:48:42
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Aquatic elves were not blessed by some Seldarine deity? Perhaps deliberately crafted by magic for some (typically elven) expansionistic purpose? 70.8% of Earth's surface area is covered by water, as is (by my estimate) roughly 60-65% of Toril, that's a lot of unclaimed area (and volume) to occupy, even if only a small fraction of it is actually habitable.
Spelljammer has a lot of water-worlds (they occur just as often as earth-worlds on the charts) which only aquatic creatures could realistically colonize.
A possible lore explanation might be that aquatic elves are descended in part from water genasi. There might be huge elven populations in the watery elemental planes. The elven creation myth in Tolkien's Silmarillion has the Quenya (elven races) being formed from waters, not D&D canon but perhaps worth noting. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Mar 2011 22:56:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 23:03:35
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According to Evermeet: Island of Elves, all it takes is a prayer to Deep Sashelas and the elf transforms (and they did so by the thousands during the Crown Wars, meaning it was fairly commonplace).
This is why I think the deity may have simply 'speeded up' an inherent process (once again, just my conjecture) in the novel. Elves can become Sea Elves whenever they want, so long as their is a deep need for said transformation. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Mar 2011 23:06:45 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 23:07:24
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| That's not evolution. That's permanent polymorphism. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 23:38:09
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| Agreed, it's just permanent magic. You might argue that aquatic adaptations might be latent within all elves but would never express without the proper magical trigger ... but it's magic (and divine fiat), so it just works and no other explanation is needed, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 23:45:16
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So what precisely is evolution to you?
To me, its when a group of creatures, over time, become something different. On a fantasy world, magic and 'the gods' become part of that process.
Considering how many off-shoots of other things we have in D&D (THOUSANDS), I don't see how you can just dismiss the notion.
I agree that all the First Races were created whole-cloth (in the context of D&D), but after that, everything that affected them thereafter became 'evolution'.
The Spellplague itself became part of Toril's evolutionary process. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 23:57:41
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Evolution, to me, is misnomer for (biological) natural selection; the process by which complexity emerges from simplicity, a self-ordering system in which organisms are judged by no criteria beyond their success at competing, surviving, and multiplying. In short, I am a scientist and I strongly prefer the theory of evolution over other origin theories.
Having said that, however ... I willingly concede that evolution is not a major driving factor within the fantastic Forgotten Realms. I've already stated several times that this is not the proper forum for arguing the validity of origin theories and that elves (along with humans and other races in the Realms) have categorically creationistic origins. Realms and D&D canon explicitly states "Corellon created the elves" and thus it is inarguably so. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Mar 2011 23:59:45 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 00:04:50
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| I seem to recall somewhere it stating that elves lack canine teeth. This being proof that elves never evolved from a much more primitive form. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 00:58:49
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| And that's where my agreeing with Arik ends. XC Trying so hard not to pipe in my bias on science. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 01:27:24
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I assure ye that I, too, am sometimes urged to argue the validity of my belief and discredit yours, tradwitch. That is precisely why I issued an appeal for us all to avoid directing this discussion into the classic controversial mire of debating origin theories.
Ye must accept that while many people share your views, many others do not. We have both stated our "opposing" preferences and will likely never agree which is correct; we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. I do not personally find Creationism agreeable, though I've already conceded (and supported) the position that it properly explains elven origins and longevity within D&D canon.
I submit a short passage from a thesis I wrote many years ago, only to demonstrate my willingness to compromise the issue here:
Religion is perfectly free to accept and promote religious doctrine. But religion has no right to impose that doctrine on science with the expectation that science will accept doctrines that cannot be subjected to scientific scrutiny. Religion must accept that science will be compelled to confirm or refute the assumed validity of the doctrine.
Science deals with observable phenomena that can be reproduced or verified. But science has no authority to categorically decree that only observed phenomena exist while unobserved phenomena do not. Science cannot properly address the validity of religious statements in which the existence of unobservable phenomena must be admitted. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Mar 2011 01:31:48 |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 01:56:30
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I have to say that I've finally decided to abandon this scroll. Arik, I still agree with you on 95% of what you claim. I do find Markustay's suppositions to be valuable, too. The purpose of this scroll was to discuss why elves live longer than other races. I don't think it has anything to do with creationism (where you and I are in complete agreement, Arik) or evolution. As I've pleaded in previous posts, I don't think we can really discuss what "science" is in Faerűn because our science doesn't include the theory of magic. We cannot prove gods exist, whereas it's a given in the Realms. It creates a totally different paradox on what constitutes science.
The Realms follow certain scientific laws (here) that must be scientific laws on Toril also, or we wouldn't recognize it as an "Earth-like" world. In the novel Cormyr humans "evolve" from barbarians into what passes for civilized beings circa the 14th Century here. However, the concept of evolution (which can take millenia to express fully) is being drawn in ways that are just silly. So, here's my answer to Swifty's original question. "Because Ao desired it to be so, and did for reasons mortals needn't know."
I look forward to discussions with everyone on other scrolls.
Tempus is the only being I know who doesn't understand that sometimes the best strategy is retreat...
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 02:05:26
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Yes, I apologize to ye Azuth, tradwitch, Markus, and all others ... I'm allowing myself to be drawn too deeply into this matter.
Consider me withdrawn from this scroll. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Mar 2011 02:07:12 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 02:10:17
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I think it might be worthwhile temporarily sealing this scroll, just to provide those scribes still invested in this discussion, a chance to review their contributions, as well as any potential future participation.
I'll review this all, again, sometime next week.
*Casts Temporary Seal Scroll* |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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why do elves live so long?
Topic Locked
