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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 23:52:44
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I was blown away a minute ago as I read page 40 of the 1st Edition DMs Sourcebook of the Realms.
There it says:
quote:
...,and Yostur Ulhmond, a young fighter from the villages of the Snow People in Thar, blond-haired and strong as an ox.
I didn't recall this group of humans in Thar until reading that...and I can't find any other reference.
Is this something that needs to go to Ed via THO...or does anyone else have something?
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 01:25:11
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Well found this
quote:
THAR (The Great Grey Lands)
AT A GLANCE: The Great Grey Lands of Thar stretch northward from the Moonsea in rising steppeland that ends at the Great Glacier Pelvuria. ELMINSTERS NOTES: Thar is a desolate, uncivilized region untouched by the hand of settlers and farms. Instead,
it is a land of nomad raiders and home of the beast-men (ogres), and great bands of orcs. These creatures are said to be aided at times by devils summoned by evil magery. Such fell magicworkers are known to command the war-strong city-state of Zhentil Keep, and its rival, the independent city-state of Mulmaster, which lies at the other end of the Moonsea. These, combined with the slumbering evil of Vaasa and the great Dragons, make Thar the gateway to The Evil of the North.THAR (The Great Grey Lands)
AT A GLANCE: The Great Grey Lands of Thar stretch northward from the Moonsea in rising steppeland that ends at the Great Glacier Pelvuria. ELMINSTERS NOTES: Thar is a desolate, uncivilized region untouched by the hand of settlers and farms. Instead,
it is a land of nomad raiders and home of the beast-men (ogres), and great bands of orcs. These creatures are said to be aided at times by devils summoned by evil magery. Such fell magicworkers are known to command the war-strong city-state of Zhentil Keep, and its rival, the independent city-state of Mulmaster, which lies at the other end of the Moonsea. These, combined with the slumbering evil of Vaasa and the great Dragons, make Thar the gateway to The Evil of the North.
It appears Fzoul had a Word of recall to Thar. This clearly looks like an ask Ed question to me. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 02:06:40
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I'm inclined to agree with Kentinal. A brief search of my extensive archives revealed little in the way of further info on the Snow Peoples -- official or fan-generated.
I'd say it's one for Ed too.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 19:22:19
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There is also a reference in The North material (IIRC) about Ice People, which may be the same group, or an ethnically connected group (the way the Frost, Snow, and Ice barbarians are all one 'race' in GH).
My best guess is that they are yet another name for the Inuit-like folk of Pelvuria, which if you recall was once much greater in size (Vassa was mostly under the ice just a few centuries back). There could also be groups of barbarians that live around the outskirts of the Glacier and have made their way of life based around those conditions (like the Trael mentioned in the Giants trilogy). If they exist, they could be a racial blend of the Orientalesque Pelvurians and the migrating Gur barbarians that became the Ride peoples and Netherease.
If anyone decides to go that route - a 'previously unknown group' of far-northern barbarians - I would prefer they just be considered more Trael - the group created in the Giants trilogy (we really don't need yet another racial or even sub-racial group when there is already one in need of some defining).
If any of this sounds ridiculous, my boys have Hannah Montana on in the same room right now, and I can feel my brain cells screaming and dying by the thousands.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 23:39:19
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My current train of thought is that a Blonde Haired Barbarian Horde could have been brought against the Ogres of Thar that helped establish the Human Kingdom of Thar.
I don't feel that blonde haired people would be native to an area that has dark haired barbarians of The Ride right next door without a major geographical divide...it just doesn't happen.
Going over to ask Ed now though... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2010 : 00:30:37
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Within the Tarzan series there was one the dealt with the concept of hair color mattered, that two groups formed that considered the other evil. Thus it might be possible the Blond haired were outcasts from The Ride and this established a holding (or many ) in Thar (the Ogres less a danger to their health then dark haired).
Ed of course best suited to answer about the hair color, humans even in a land dominated Ogres and other questions you have. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2010 : 20:57:49
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Blonde hair would come from the Posi (Reghedmen of the Frozen Far), and Dark (black) hair from the Eastern Gur.
Talfir would be Tethen/Chondathan, of tan skin tones and brownish (lightening to red) hair.
If the Trael (FAR northern barbarians mentioned in the Giants trilogy) are light-haired (I can't remember off-hand), then it would stand to reason that they are yet another remnant of the early (hypothetical) Pozi peoples. And like the Reghedmen, they may be of nearly pure Pozi blood (unlike the Northmen and Rauthym, who have quite a it of Talfir-Cortae blood at this point.)
Wulfgar, BTW, is an anomaly. 
His mom may have dallied with an Uthgardt.
Anyhow, it is entirely possible - especially considering I picture a vast, far-haired human empire in prehistoric times existing at the 'top' of the world - that there are several now-separated groups of Pozi-blooded people existing in what the Giants called 'The Cold lands' (everything north of Faerun proper).
I will need to re-read that short story about the ancient Elves under draconic rule, but there should be room in the timeline for a human survivor state to a fallen Dragon kingdom - one from which the Elves fledh south, but the humans stayed on, and battled the Giants for centuries. Basically, a human empire comes to an end with the Sundering, and the human survivors - along with many newly-arrived elves (Eladrin) - are swept-up into the Giant/Dragon schism. The Elves do there usual racist thing and create the king killer (or whatever that thing was called), thus destroying Draconic civilization and allowing the Giants a short reprieve (and possible 'renaissance' culturally), and the humans take up the reigns of that fallen Dragon Empire for at least a couple of centuries, until they too succumb (probably because of the now un-challnged giants).
This could be the time-period wherein we have the 'Rise of the Frost Giants' - that kingdom discussed in those portal articles. I picture that being on that massive Island just above the region of the Reghed glacier and ten Towns (there is at least one portal to that capitol located in the frozen sea nearby). The giants reduce the Humans to a barbarian state (the Traels) after a time, and flourish themselves (once again) for several centuries. This wuld make sense, because it is established that the giants and Traels have some sort of ancient animosity for one another.
Hmmmmm... when did the Elves first arrive in the eastern Heartlands? If they actually caused the tear-fall that created the Moonsea (something highly likely given their history), that could have been their way of destroying whatever remnant of Ostoria was still in existence in and around Thar.
I have to figure-out where the Dwarves come in in all of this - I'm getting a 'slave-race' vibe from them now, at least in the north. Too many cultural similarities with the Giants (including the written form of both languages). What if the Yehimals was a breeding place for dwarven slaves? We have evidence of an Ogre kingdom in that area, and if those dwarves were the same group as the ones from the affair of the Black Diamond (as I suspect), then we may somehow have a way of connecting the re-Fey-'arized' Fomorians of 4e to the Othea-bred abominations of 2e/3e. Those Dwarves were involved with the Fey, and if the Fomorians somehow enslaved the Dwarves after that tragic event, we could have a neo-canonically way of connecting Othea's brood to the Fey.
What if it was the Fomorians who planted the Black diamond for the dwarves to find? 
The original Fey lands are destroyed and they flee Toril, leaving the (guilty) dwarves behind, who are then 'easy-pickins' for a race of malevolent giants. This could also give us a reason for the differences in the two main branches of dwarves - the (northern) Hill dwarves could have some sort of 'taint' from the giants, whereas the southern ones are more 'pure'.
All we need is a portal from the Cold Lands to the Yehimals, and say the Ogre Kingdom that once dominated the lower slopes facing the Utter East were ruled by Fomorians. I'll have to look back into the Utter east thread - the leader (from the video game) of that evil country (Nix) may be spinnable as a Fomorian (although one with fiendish blood). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Aug 2010 21:36:43 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 21:07:06
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{casts 'resurrect scroll'}
I know you have some interest in Thar, DD, and while looking for groundlings in the 2eFRMM, I found this entry for Beguiler:quote:
Several mages of Thar have further increased the creature's value by acquiring the beguiler as a familiar. These mages have exhibited beguiler-like qualities, detecting hidden objects and hiding in shadows.
FYI, it looks like a shaved opossum. It has a natural 'True Sight' ability.
Making me now think it may have been a native of the Feywild before wandering into the Realms.....
Anyhow, I know 'Thar lore' is far and few between, so I thought you may be able to use this bit in whatever project you are working on.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Mar 2011 21:07:44 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 21:24:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
{casts 'resurrect scroll'}
I know you have some interest in Thar, DD, and while looking for groundlings in the 2eFRMM, I found this entry for Beguiler:quote:
Several mages of Thar have further increased the creature's value by acquiring the beguiler as a familiar. These mages have exhibited beguiler-like qualities, detecting hidden objects and hiding in shadows.
FYI, it looks like a shaved opossum. It has a natural 'True Sight' ability.
Making me now think it may have been a native of the Feywild before wandering into the Realms.....
Anyhow, I know 'Thar lore' is far and few between, so I thought you may be able to use this bit in whatever project you are working on.
SWEET...thanks MT!
I am indeed still working on a project for the area...but it has went a bit beyond just The Ride.
The more I look around the more I see HUGE tie ins to the Feywild in the Moonsea area!
This only anchors that moreso! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Snow People of Thar
