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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 04:19:08
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I don't think that meshes with Ed's description of the elves in Cormyr. I remember elves aging, just much more slowly than humans.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 04:33:42
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| I don't think it's at all meaningful to apply our understanding of telomeres and genetics to D&D elves for any number of reasons. They don't actually exist so we don't have any (living or dead) samples for proper scientific analysis, it is an error to assume they possess nearly identical genetics. Their genetics are established as being entirely unrelated to humans, from entirely different worlds; apparently the result of convergent evolution, meaning the similarities between our species result from our forms being ideally suited/adapted for our (shared) environment. Oh yes, of course: the rules of physics (and thus chemistry, biology, and every other science) in D&D differ from our own in subtle and quirky ways ... plus magic is plainly more evident than here. Finally: elves obviously don't age the same way humans do, the reasons might be genetic but they're not likely to be "caused" by telomeres or Earth-human genetics; even if they were, we are in no position to speak about it with any authority, we can only offer pseudo-scientific speculation. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Mar 2011 04:35:11 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 11:03:54
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This is a fantasy setting remember?
@Azuth
I'm sorry, I just don't buy into science, biology, or scientific thought. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 17:26:42
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@Arik, I agree, mostly. The biggest factor in my mind is the Weave. It's just a force of nature with which we have no common parallelism. That's why we call it "Fantasy" in part, I suppose. Of course, with the Weave's purported destruction, that leaves a big hole in my theory, but I suspect Ed can eventually help fix that missing component. 
Sage: I feel compelled to add that the discussion of science is related to the scroll's topic. It only becomes personal when one makes it so, which I hope we can avoid.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 18:30:20
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| TW- The reason that chimps are still around is becuase evolution does not work in a linear fashion- that is, it does not go in a single straight line as many people think. New evolutionary branches will fork off at varying points of a main family, thus creating several species that may or may not live simultaneously. what this means for us is that we split from the apes at a point BEFORE they existed, and they evolved from a separate branch FORM THE SAME ANCESTRAL ROOT. this does NOT mean that we evolved from current ape species directly- just that we both share the same ancestral parent species. It was, however, recent enough that we still share nearly all of the same gens. In fact there IS precedent of an nearly-human ape within our own time. There is 9or was, not sure if he's still alive now) a chimp named Oscar who was discovered as a baby in the Congo back in the late sixties. He is thought to have been the product of the (rather deviant, IMO) pairing of a human male and a chimp female. His features were as much human as chimp, he walked on TWO legs ONLY, and behaved an gravitated more toward huamns than to his own kind. interestingly, as he grew, he also developed the tendancy toward being sexually aggressive to human females rather than chimps, and wanted almost nothing to do with chimps at all. He picked up sign language and other human expressions much more rapidly than most chimps, and others of his own kind wanted nothing to do with him, either. There were some photos from his owners, and his resemblance to a human was striking. you can probably find it by using google-fu..... (i'll hunt some links, and post em!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 18:41:55
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The elven race is decendant from the faerie realm where one of the creator race the fey live. The seldarine is not a faerie phanteon btw and they did not worship them at the begining. see the snippet below from the rolls of the years behond the dale reckoning.
c. -27000 DR Continuing their work to undermine dragon rule, the Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive green elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time). Although most green elves are content to remain in small scattered tribes, one group known as the Ilythiiri negotiates with the dragons and begins to carve out a small kingdom in the south. The great Ilythiiri capital at Atorrnash remains a shining beacon of elf culture for millennia.
so in short the elven race live so long because of their fey heritage. But they don not come from the creator race. |
Purple you say?!
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Edited by - Portella on 18 Mar 2011 18:43:38 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 18:53:51
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Alysstra, that's gross!
But aye, the primate ancestor we share with chimps, gorilla's, utangs and gibbons was a primitive mouselike mammal with opposing thumbs.
Elves ancient ancestry is more suspect, as their myths claim they were created by Corellon (and they have a lot more credit for their myths because those ancestral generations are not that far off as their human counterparts).
If we assume that is a totally fictitious story, elves could have evolved from a smaller fey-like mammal, who were long lived by default. So their features such as magic affinity, low light vision and longivity are inherited from some sort of fey. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 18 Mar 2011 18:54:48 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Elestar
Acolyte
Hungary
27 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 20:09:00
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[Thank you su much for the help with accents, diacritic signs, and forum code!  ]
Wow! This chimp-human splice is a very intense story.. 
As for elves (or more likely they fey ancestors) predating the Seldarine: In the Book of Exalted Deeds - I hope I am correct saying so - there is some content on Eladrin (the celestial type from 3.5 Edition) which says that they took first on their elf-like forms (next to their original elmental one) when the elves/fey themselves appeared on Arborea, immigrating that plane from Ysgard. I guess the Seldarine as we know it, came to existence only after that; and somehow the Seldarine and the proper elven race, as we know them, mutually shaped each other's characteristics in a transactional manner. Eleves defined their ideals (paragons/gods) and these ideals defined the elves in return.
This far this has nothing to do with elven longevity. So I am left to say that indeed it must be the inheritence of their immortal fey ancestors. Speculation follows: I think gods like to be assured that their followers are mortal, wich is initially the main (or maybe the sole) difference between them. So the Seldarine pushed the elves (their own creations from whatever fey raw-material) to the mortal Prime Material world to dwell there, but they also gifted them with a bond with the arcane matter to grant them longevity and notable skill at manipulating different kinds of energies (magic).
As for elves and humans or any other demihuman race would share similar genes, I don't know. Most D&D race can crossbeed with any other, especially humans It just happens, regardless of how far or close they geunses might be. It's fantasy fiction, anything can be possible. (For example I clearly doubt that humanoid races have anything common with dragons, still there are half-dragons.)
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Edited by - Elestar on 18 Mar 2011 20:09:46 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 20:15:58
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| In regards to half-dragons, initially(or originally) this was only possible with the few draconic races that could NATURALLY transform to a human9oid) shape- the top-tier metallics, song, deep, and steel dragons, specifically. In 3rd ed and later, ALL dragons who could polymorph to humanoid form, whether magically or by natural ability, could then create offspring. Notably, it still only works one-way. That is, only male dragons with female humanoids. A female dragon CANNOT be impregnated by a humanoid, regardless of what form she takes. Draconic reproduction simply kills the offspring in its embryonic stage, because they are incompatable. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 20:31:05
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quote:
Wow! This chimp-human splice is a very intense story..
And also completely untrue. There is no evidence to suggest Oscar was "half-human". Again, scribes, take what some posters say with a HUGE slab of salt. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 20:35:33
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You got s citation for this no 'lady dragons getting seeded by humanoid' stuff, or did you forget to add a Home-Brew tag to this?
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
In regards to half-dragons, initially(or originally) this was only possible with the few draconic races that could NATURALLY transform to a human9oid) shape- the top-tier metallics, song, deep, and steel dragons, specifically. In 3rd ed and later, ALL dragons who could polymorph to humanoid form, whether magically or by natural ability, could then create offspring. Notably, it still only works one-way. That is, only male dragons with female humanoids. A female dragon CANNOT be impregnated by a humanoid, regardless of what form she takes. Draconic reproduction simply kills the offspring in its embryonic stage, because they are incompatable.
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 20:46:44
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| I don't know why people are trying to apply darwinism to a fantasy (mind you, Ibelieve that theorie is bs) setting. They were created by gods, no evolution. The Seldarine always existed, I'd like to know where people are getting this odd infofrom. The Seldarine was created like most of the gods of FR. Save Shevarash. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 20:54:29
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| nope, Edrick- thois came STRAIGHT out of the 2nd ed Council of Wyrms book. It had an entire section on draconic mating and repro., along with info on egg mortality, sinter-species breeding, etc. Much more thorough than the 3rd ed draconomicon. It specifically mentione that females could not breed with humanoids or any other species, even if they take the form. Yes, I DO my homework.... And the bit about Oscar most certainly WAS true, thank you. I read it in a magazine years ago- was Nat Geo or smithsonian or one of those, forget which ATM. And I DID say that he was THOUGHT to be a hybrid. At the time, the science of genetics was not well-known enough to proove one way or the other. it was before genetic testing came about. Don't know if anything was ever discovered about that later. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 21:02:42
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Not a big fan of 'science' either. Just modern-day mythology, is all. A theory is little more then a 'best guess', which is precisely what Shaman and witchdoctors did when they made-up stories about 'the gods'.
As for 'collective data'... LOL - the primitives said the same thing ("see? Water comes from the sky, therefor the gods must be pouring it on us!"), They had less then 1% of 'the facts'. We now have maybe 5%, if that. Science is a sham. Keep your guesses to yourselves, and keep telling yourself 'we KNOW stuff", if it helps you sleep at night.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
I've read numerous Scyfi stories about 'breeding', and two characters I found particularly intriguing: Lazarus Long, the product of breeding for longevity (he was supposedly 'immortal'), and Teela Brown, a human female bred by Puppeteers (Ringworld novels) for LUCK, of all things. I only bring this point up because even scyfi authors seem to be of the opinion that any quality can be 'bred for'.
Anyhow, just thought I'd throw that into the mix.
As for Elves, I personally feel (as in, purely HOMEBREW) that they are the 'children of the Fey' (either metaphorically or physically), and that the original Fey Creator-Race (the Shee) are immortal (BTW, I think the same of all the Creator-Races, including the original human one). At some point, 'death' was introduced into the universe; that's canon. And it is also canon that the Creators existed before the War that created Death, ergo, the original Creators could not die (I happen to think that logic is infallible). All life created after The War of Light & Darkness was subject to 'death' (which I feel is a form of corruption in the Material plane).
Since the Prime Material Plane had been 'infected' with death, many 'Creators' fled (the ones that survived the twin holocausts of the tearfall and Sundering) to avoid it's corruption. The Fey chief amongst them (they either went to or created the feywild)... but it was to no avail. Although they themselves could avoid death by avoiding the Material plane, their offspring were all still subject to it. They still had VERY long lives (1000+ years) IF they stayed away from the Prime, but upon entering the Material World each successive generation would loose a little more of its 'life' energy.
Certain things, like sunlight (which has Radiant Energy within it's spectrum) can help offset this a bit, but it cannot be avoided altogether without divine aid (or undeath). I add this last part because canon dictates elves do require some sunlight, and the drow, who get NO sunlight, live far less then the other sub-races.
Call it 'Radiance', or 'Elan', or even 'Purity', but whatever it is, those original forbears 'lost it', and can't get it back. Their offspring, however, can still lead very long lives if they are careful.
All IMHO, of course. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Mar 2011 21:41:20 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 21:04:13
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People are applying Darwin's Origin of Species subject because Swifty asked why elves lived so lone, and he mentioned DNA and chimpanzees in his original posting. Furthermore, it is important to note that nothing has always existed, TW. Superlatives are dangerous words as they're nearly indefensible. Ao brought himself forth from Chaos. Ao created Selûne and Shar. Ao controls the deities allowed in the pantheon.
That being said, this scroll is not a discussion on the real-world aspect of anyone's belief system. Science is the empirical proof of something. Faith is the belief in something in the absence of empirical proof. There is room for both in this scroll, and in the real world. However, we are discussing the longevity of elves here, and why we think it to be true.
I would appeal to everyone to please be cordial in your posting, and not starting demanding that every item be cited. This is a discussion about the Forgotten Realms, not a submission to a peer-review journal. Please be courteous to one another lest people start threatening to leave because of the tone.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 21:14:16
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| tradwitch is correct in stating that evolution isn't significant in D&D settings. There's ample proof that elves and all (or at least almost all) of the other races are products of creationism. They were created by deities (such as the Seldarine), or by creator races, or sometimes even by mad wizards. The process of natural selection is constantly present, but insofar as the presence of species in places like the Realms it just hasn't had sufficient time to be a determining factor; other D&D creatures (such as the gith races or all the denizens of Athas) would serve as better examples of design by evolution. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 21:27:10
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Agreed to both Azuth and Arik. I'm not sure evolution is actually applicable in the Realms, or any other D&D world. Although, it would bring up some interesting questions on how certain creatures in D&D came about. Ed would have a better knowledge of that than we do, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind some speculation on our parts as to how magical beasts might "evolve". (Just perusing through some old sources, I can definitely see a divergant group of just magical felines ALONE. Nonafels, kirres, displacers, shadowcats- just to name a few.) Elven longevity and sub-races seems to be one of those subjects where everyone has an opinion. And guess what? They're ALL right!!! (Assertions involving ignoring or taking salt with posts notwithstanding.)
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 21:42:51
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If you have faith in science, doesn't that make science itself a form of religion?
""Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." " - Albert Einstein |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Mar 2011 21:43:59 |
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Elestar
Acolyte
Hungary
27 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 21:45:16
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
They were created by gods, no evolution.
I am inclined to think this way as well.
I personally think that racial gods came in to existence in the instant when they create the very race they claim as their own. Prior to that, in my opoinion, they are just drifting concepts floating about the Astral, and these concepts need to took on a more definite shape. When they find the viable subject to be the prime incarnation of their spiritual identity they have their most important creation, who will inevitably venerate them for the very act of creation. And so gods and their created ones define each other. I can not imagine creation as a one sided act: "I am perfect, and I create you now." I don't think so, rather, "Wait a minute.. a little this and perhaps some of that.. Ok, WE are ready!" - So do I think, but this is only my own opinion.
Alystra, I remember I came across your half-draconic Characters and even had an IC debate on the nature of the crossbreeding with one of my character. I found your explantions correct and understandable, even if I found some deatils odd , for I generally imagine half-dragons as being more draconic-like in their phenotype, i.e. with more bestial features ..for some reason. But as you explained how your half-dragons resulted as they are, it seemed totally ok to me.
And well, yes elven subspecies could be even more a subject of debate. No wonder why 4th edition took sun, moon, and star elves under one category, they are very similar in every aspect. Though some materials (such as Cormanthyr, Empire of the Elves) sate that sun elves tend to live decades (up to two centuries) longer than moon elves, for example. It is interesting why is that? And they explain also the aloofness and the self-contentment of the sun elves with this greater longevity above all other People.
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Edited by - Elestar on 18 Mar 2011 21:48:41 |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 21:50:32
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Right, like you read any of 'Science's' journals. Your remarks re: Oliver are completely fallacious. Please, just stop.
Still waiting for a citation on that dragon non-sense. |
Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 18 Mar 2011 21:56:54 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 21:55:58
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| In 1E the longevity gap between elven races was measured in many centuries, even a couple millennia. Much less pronounced with half-elves, who were treated as a single group regardless of their elven pedigree. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 21:59:21
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Erdrick, I do not appreciate your condescending posts. I did a quick search to find relevant pages, and linked for others to see. I can READ just fine, thank you. Don't have time to pore over every single dang web-site on a topic. i'll leave that to those with no life.
Ah, Elestar, welcome back! I actually preferred the older version that had less of the physical draconic traits. It made them a bit less alien to other races. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 22:16:01
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Erdrick — I refer you to the Pyramid of Argument. You'll note that personal attacks and name calling are at the very bottom of the list.
[Edit: I notice you've edited your previous post to withdraw needlessly uncivil comments, I apologize for my accusation.] |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Mar 2011 00:35:21 |
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Elestar
Acolyte
Hungary
27 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 22:16:39
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Amazing it truly is, that longevity gap. I'm pretty clueless with Editions older than 3.5  I never cease to learn something new and interesting here That's why I like this site.
Thank you Alystra! I can only agree on that less reptilean and wyrmish half-dragons look less alien, and if your house rules are such, I personally see little need for any further explanations, whether you got canon material to prove that or not.
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 22:16:52
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@Elestar
Finally!!!! Someone who thinks like me!!!!!
I don't like science because if they can't explain scientifically, then it doesn't. Everything in scien e in based on "facts". That makes all of my beliefs moot to them. I do appreciate health science for the most part though.
I'm a spiritual person, so there is my natural aversion to it. I'm a strong believer in the super natural and am very religous (Scottish Traditional witchcraft/pagan), but .
Back on subject-
The battlesbetween Shar and Selune caused MANY gods to be created. |
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Elestar
Acolyte
Hungary
27 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 22:45:28
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I think either fey and elves are quite a conceptual (or metaphysical) kind of creatures rather than beings who are a result of a long adaptation process in the material world. I would say they are rather closer to the side of the source than to the side of a result.
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why do elves live so long?
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