| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 10:48:38
|
Real-world Earthbound RSEs (ESEs, I suppose) - things that seriously and permanently disrupt or reshape the world, often to the great dismay of fans - are caused by rather uninspired things like drought, famine, plague, endless wars upon wars, and the occasional earthquake or volcano. A flaming meteoroid and a couple of ice age PESEs have been retconned to add historical depth. Maybe the thirsty oceans drink a major city every few millenia.
Contrasted to the Realms where RSEs caused by ordinarily earthquakes are lackluster and boring; at least when one could instead witness vast armies of archliches riding dragons, unspeakable hordes spewed forth from extraplanar vortices, or the gods hurling chunks of the cosmos into Faerūn.
I actually view every RSE as a good thing. The setting needs to evolve; unless you just want to eternally read/play through little more than an uneventful gossipy soap opera or an endless string of sequentially interchangeable weekly episodes. In the few instances that really bother me it's not a real dislike for the new lore, or even weeping for lost lore (because it usually can, and will, be creatively recycled anyways) ... it is when the RSEs are handled in a thoughtless, impatient, clumsily heavyhanded manner that causes far more collateral damage than is strictly necessary. I'm not talking about craters and body count and necessary explanations for new game mechanics, I'm talking about thrusting a jagged dagger into the very soul of the Realms (and the more recent trend of strangling and pummeling the reeling Realms with an unstoppable flurry of RSEs without letting the setting catch its breath and carefully explore the fantastic implications of what has transpired.) It makes the existing characters and plots seem like little more than inconsequential pawns and disposable marketing gimmicks.
I wonder if the unmaking of Sauron's One Ring could be labelled MESE. Surprising that Tolkien fans have never decried it as foul. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Nov 2010 11:18:20 |
 |
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 13:42:09
|
The RSE with the Metatext and Cyrinishad (sp?) is my fave.
Actually the Rogue Dragons and the reclamation of Myth Drannor RSEs bother me more than the Spellplague and the Drow ones cause I simply don't care for post 1375 DR. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 18:23:22
|
Oooh, yes. I can't say I really think Cyric himself is all that appealing, but the Cyrinishad was conceptually quite profound, in a pseudo-theological way.
Wisdom found in an old scroll lost under the dust:quote:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I think ... it's best not to overthink the topic and just let the FR be exactly what it is.
|
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 19:10:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Oooh, yes. I can't say I really think Cyric himself is all that appealing, but the Cyrinishad was conceptually quite profound, in a pseudo-theological way.
I agree. Cyric is hardly worthy of my regard, but the Cyrinishad was a brilliant idea. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 20:16:31
|
Agreed.
The idea that the printed word can alter reality is very provocative, and a great jumping-off point for all sorts of plot-hooks.
I've been referring to the Metatext as the Language Primeval (from College of Wizardry) in other threads of late - I had forgotten it had an FR-specific term! 
What was that tongue Drasek Riven speaks? I haven't read the second trilogy, but that would make a great polar opposite for the Language Primeval.
I LOVE this site.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 21:13:50
|
| I think that the Dark Speech (or Black) from the Book of Vile Darkness |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 21:41:09
|
quote:
Markustay
What was that tongue Drasek Riven speaks? I haven't read the second trilogy, but that would make a great polar opposite for the Language Primeval.
I don't remember it being specified. It could very well be Russian or Enochian for all I know. I'd just call it Umbral, Shadowbabble, or Sharspeak.
Where does Riven come from? It might just be Damaran or something.
Your Language Primeval is sort of a Supernal concept? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Nov 2010 21:43:08 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 01:18:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Oooh, yes. I can't say I really think Cyric himself is all that appealing, but the Cyrinishad was conceptually quite profound, in a pseudo-theological way.
I agree. Cyric is hardly worthy of my regard, but the Cyrinishad was a brilliant idea.
For me it fell short to be considered brilliant. Well, maybe because it's not really that 'new' to me. I've seen something similar to it in other novels. The forbidden book in the The Banned and the Banished series by James Clemens; the library (containing books like the Cyrinishad) in the Chamber of the Moon and the Book of Dark Magic by the Bayrashin in David Forbes's The Osserian Saga. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 03:11:01
|
The Forbidden Book idea is always a provocative staple in fantasy lore. It was as provocative back in the lost literary age of the legendary unnamed Necronomicon (Book of the Dead) as it would be in the modern literary age of the equally unnamed Necrotelecomnicon (Book of the Phone Numbers of the Dead). Reading any such tome opens the gateway of the mind to unknowable vast godly powers older than the cosmos and drives one irrevocably mad.
I wonder if the process behind the physical construction of the Cyrinishad (as detailed in Prince of Lies) was somehow necessary (a type of spiritual ritual, perhaps?) to "transfer" the divine power behind the words into the physical Realms. I wonder if Denier's Journal (which contains passages of inconceivably powerful divine introspection, written each day a little after tea-time) would also drive a mortal insane. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 03:24:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Oooh, yes. I can't say I really think Cyric himself is all that appealing, but the Cyrinishad was conceptually quite profound, in a pseudo-theological way.
I agree. Cyric is hardly worthy of my regard, but the Cyrinishad was a brilliant idea.
For me it fell short to be considered brilliant. Well, maybe because it's not really that 'new' to me. I've seen something similar to it in other novels. The forbidden book in the The Banned and the Banished series by James Clemens; the library (containing books like the Cyrinishad) in the Chamber of the Moon and the Book of Dark Magic by the Bayrashin in David Forbes's The Osserian Saga.
I'm a little curious... The Cyrinishad was powerful enough to convince a deity who knew what he was reading... How does that fall short? The only failure of that plot is that Cyric overestimated his opposition -- if he had planned a little better, he'd be the One God of the Realms now. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Nov 2010 03:32:06 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 03:49:18
|
| Heh, gods tricking gods. So un-brilliant. The Cyrinishad was created by Rinda the Scribe under the forced divine dictation of the clown Cyric. Now, if the Cyrinishad were created by a human, or a group of insanely powerful or simply intelligent wizards without the meddling of a deity, that'll be something of a great achievement and, undoubtedly, brilliant. As with the case of the Library in the Chamber of the Moon and the Bayrashin's Book that contain rituals on how to permanently imprison or resurrect a god. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 06:59:54
|
So, maybe Shar's hoochie dance makes some sense now.
She was using Metatext and the Language Primeval to sing the Sublime Song to the Music of the Spheres!
She was merely performing the Somatic Component - the Ocillations of the Netherverse!
It not only drives mortals insane, but it leaves certain half-senile old lesser powers drooling.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 07:48:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Heh, gods tricking gods. So un-brilliant. The Cyrinishad was created by Rinda the Scribe under the forced divine dictation of the clown Cyric. Now, if the Cyrinishad were created by a human, or a group of insanely powerful or simply intelligent wizards without the meddling of a deity, that'll be something of a great achievement and, undoubtedly, brilliant. As with the case of the Library in the Chamber of the Moon and the Bayrashin's Book that contain rituals on how to permanently imprison or resurrect a god.
Where I come from, gods being able to forcibly alter the opinions of other gods in such a blatant way is something of a rarity, and indeed a great achievement and a massive victory for that god; as Wooly sad, the only thing that prevented Cyric from achieving domination at that point was his own lack of foresight and planning (unsurprising, considering the source).
Still, it both frustrates me and makes me thankful that it was Cyric who became a god: frustrated, because of his continued incompetence, but thankful, because, otherwise, with all his power, he would be the dominant force on Toril. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 07:50:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So, maybe Shar's hoochie dance makes some sense now.
She was using Metatext and the Language Primeval to sing the Sublime Song to the Music of the Spheres!
She was merely performing the Somatic Component - the Ocillations of the Netherverse!
It not only drives mortals insane, but it leaves certain half-senile old lesser powers drooling.
Very seldom do the gods do anything that makes sense. With Shar, it's close to never. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 09:44:50
|
quote:
Sandro
... the only thing that prevented Cyric from achieving domination at that point was his own lack of foresight and planning (unsurprising, considering the source).
Wasn't there also some little complication from Mask? Or am I mixing up plots between novels? |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 15:02:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So we went from 'everything that had some sort of impact throughout history' as our RSE definition, to 'only if affected large areas and had long-term effects'.
We didn't. Never on Candlekeep prior to this thread has anyone ever indicated that *any* event which had *any* impact on the 'Realms was a "RSE". I looked using google-jutsu!!.
It would be nice if scribes try to stick to a definition, as opposed altering the question to fit a half-baked hypothesis.
Also, what exactly is Shar's "hoochie-dance"? I am at once unfamiliar with the term, nor have I seen it in canon...
@dennis
Gods tricking gods is brilliant. It's modern mythology, which I'll take over trope any day of the week.
Elminster is certainly a fixture in the Realms. However, he is not a walking, talking, RSE. One would have to adopt Markustay's flawed definition of RSEs. Which, when followed to it's logical conclusion, at the bottom of a slippery slope, indicates that the rock that saved Elminster Aumar's life in "Making of a Mage" was a RSE. And that is not correct.
Maybe you could add "Realms Shaking/Shattering Rock" or RSR, to your list? |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 16:49:19
|
| I personally think that Markus' "flawed" RSE model might be an infinitely better solution than simply flaming the question back and forth in a recursively quoted loop of escalated disagreement. It may or may not be perfect, but it's pointless to argue over something that doesn't even have a common definition. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 17:06:54
|
Prior to this thread, RSE's were events that occured in the publishing history which significantly changed some aspect(s) of the Forgotten Realms. It was not used to describe the 'Butterfly Effect'. It was not used to refer to 'historical' events. Futher, the term is not used by Faerunians (or Torilians or Abeirians). It *was* used by fans to describe major shake-ups in the publishing history. My google-jutsu is strong.
In essence, RSE's, as a descriptive term, once had a commonly held meaning. It was not until some participants in this thread chose to distort this commonly held meaning that the topic of discussion became confused. You cannot have a meaningful discussion if the participants in that discussion refuse to define relevant terms; especially if these distortions are perpetuated in an attempt to lend creedance to a flawed argument, as we have seen here.
You mileage, undoubtedly, varies. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 17:23:59
|
| The entire point of this thread, as Isee it, is to "define" the term RSE- which is what the majority of posters have been attemptingto do. Obviously, different people will have different interpretations of what an RSE is. That does not make one definition "flawed" in relation to someone else's, it is simply that person's opinion of what an RSE should entail. sometimes great storms announce themselves as small breezes, and this is true even of events that some might otherwise shrug off as inconsequential, but which lead to major sdown the road, or which change something Realms-wide on a seemingly small scale, but in a fundamental way. So just because people bcannot quite agree on what the definition is, does not invalidate their views. It simply means we are all different, and that each poster comes at the concept from a different perspective and understanding of the lore. so by that estimation, MT's definitions are all perfectly valid- as are those of any other poster. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 17:31:27
|
| I also think it's a plan for confusion to call big historical events in general 'RSEs'. The usual meaning definitely has them as publishing phenomena as well as in-universe ones; and part of why (and others) dislike them is precisely that they're unlike, in nature and especially in frequency, the established history of the Realms before the Year of Shadows. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 18:39:31
|
I was being facetious through most of that... I certainly don't mean for us to have 25 categories of 'SE' - I was merely pointing out that (in other threads) scribes have wanted very specific definitions of a commonly used term in the fandom genre, and when that definition did not fit their own criteria they argued over it.
Which is silly.
So I'm 'flawed', eh? My Ex would certainly agree with you.
Anyhow, the reason why I went off on that particular path was to show that some of us don't even think of the ToT as an RSE, simply because it happened before we became fans of the setting (mine and Woolys case, for instance). For us, the Avatar Crisis would not qualify as an RSE because it is 'history' (in our own viewpoint, not in fact).
I didn't come to know (and miss) Myrkul, Baal, and Bane until much later. You can't miss something you've never had.
Its really rather pointless to even ague over 'opinions', because flawed or not, they are just opinions, and people will stick to theirs regardless. Logic has very little to do with a person's perceptions. Once you get something stuck in your head, its nearly impossible to change it.
And aside from the Spellplague and the ToT, I fail to see any event in the published history as an RSE, since none of them had any long term effects. In fact, even the ToT had far less impact then it should have (gods walk the earth, a bunch die, a few new ones are 'born'.... and the next day its business-as-usual... YEAH... RIIIIGHT....). the religious shake-up alone should have been catastrophic... but it wasn't. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 19:05:34
|
Thanks for wasting the thread-space?
Both Markustay and Wooly in past threads have referred to ToT as an RSE in previous threads (google-jutsu).
I would certainly agree that many scribes here have difficulty dismissing beliefs held in absence of evidence, once evidence to the contrary is brought to light.
I also google-ken'd "ret con and candlekeep". . I found some threads that were locked, simply because scribes here *wouldn't* accept a definition.
There's a BIG difference between there "not being a clear definition" and choosing to not accept a definition which is clear. Choosing to disregard English language terms simply to fuel one's own vitriole is totally cretonous!! |
|
|
|
Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 19:11:46
|
Further, google-jutsu reveals that Markustay has in past threads complained that there were "too many RSE's" and they occurred in too rapid series.
So which is it? An RSE in 1992 and 2008 is too many? Too few? Or, your new defintion; a single RSE in the history of the Realms is too many?
Does Alzheimers disease/delerium always accompany grognardism?
(Disregard the above. It's facetious.) |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 19:13:18
|
Google it... or caused it? 
Anyhow, of course Wooly and I have referred to the ToT as an RSE - because it is (and we are both smart-enough to know that).
However, my point was that neither of us will ever be bothered by it because we do not perceive it as such (despite KNOWING that it is).
Are you posting from work? Taking a break from novel-writing on company time, or some such?
Just curious....
Anyhow, Aco13, I (supposedly) don't even know you, so whats with the constant barrage of attacks? You and I seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot.. we appear to have some bad chemistry.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2010 19:13:54 |
|
|
|
Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 19:14:09
|
| I still wanna know what "Shar's 'hoochie-dance'" was... Was that in a Greenwood book? |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 19:16:33
|
No, it was that silly dance Shar did in that 'vision' Aliisza had when Cyric wacked Mystra with a stick.
Supposedly, it was mind-blowing enough to distract a god from his loyalties.
Which means I would LOVE to see it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2010 19:16:55 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 19:24:37
|
| I'm posting from work. I work on a framing crew, and I get a lot of down-time, since our material guy is so slow. |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 19:26:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In fact, even the ToT had far less impact then it should have (gods walk the earth, a bunch die, a few new ones are 'born'.... and the next day its business-as-usual... YEAH... RIIIIGHT....). the religious shake-up alone should have been catastrophic... but it wasn't.
Or do we just not have much detail about it, with the habitual focus on flash, bang, never mind the aftermath? (An approach that may have been commercially/culturally in tune, if the comments in reviews of Peter Jackson's Return of the King about 'multiple endings' are anything to go by.) When we don't know what the effects of particular things were, and we don't necessarily know whether their authors know, the situation is indeterminate. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
The Most Sensible and Well-done RSE
