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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 07:39:02
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So, uh, in the D&D 3.5e, Forgotten Realms, "We're just going to go all out messing with the setting and the system, to kind of poke both with a stick basically." in the Druid and Artificer game, we, um, figured out how to go kinda crazy with magic.
Our level Eight (LEVEL EIGHT!!) characters figured out a way to have, um, about fifty or so buff spells of spell levels 1 through 5 or so, up on both the characters in the party... pretty much constantly. As in 24/7...Edit: 24/10, thanks for the correction.
As kind of a signal to the DM and in character for my worry about this, I said, in character, "What do you want to bet that the first time we do this for a twenty four hour period, an Angel of Mystra comes and has a talk with us?" To which the other player character said, "If that happens, we're going to be very very polite."
So... with your guys knowledge, what WOULD figuring out things to have a massive amount of defensive spells up constantly (ie, many far longer than their natural duration) do to the fabric of the Weave? Would it strengthen it? Weaken it? Make it go kind of crazy? It wouldn't cause an area of Wild Magic, would it? Does it depend on where you go with this many spells up?
Other than freaking out powerful people and maybe sending some SERIOUS magical artillery our way cause these powerful folk would feel threatened (which would be totally awesome, and expected!), how would going around like this affect the world around the player characters?
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Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 08 Nov 2010 17:40:14
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 11:17:52
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| I doubt that is any effect at all when 2 spellcasters use some buffs in a world with thousands and thousands of spellcaster using spells all the time... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 15:05:02
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| If level 8 characters have figured this out (which I'd really like to know how they did; that's utterly insane to have that many buffs up in general, much less 24/10), then other characters, higher than 8th level, have figured it out, too. In other words, if a PC can do it, so can an NPC. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 15:54:20
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Yea, what spells are in effect and how can the duration last longer than 24 hours? I know the feat Persistant Spell could be use, making a spells duration last up to 24 hours but that requires a 7th level spell slot to augment at 1st level spell.
By level 8, you should both have about level 4 spells/infusions. So how's this happening again?
Also, keep in mind that certain buff spells don't stack with one another. For example, Divine Favor (cleric 1) is a Luck bonus and Bless (cleric 1) is a morale bonus so they would stack. Prayer (cleric 3), on the other hand, would not stack with Divine Favor since both are Luck bonuses and same goes for Aid (cleric 2) and Bless.
As to your question, if you had spells that were being used on a consistant basis like 24/10 (Faerun uses 10 days in a week ) I still don't think it would affect the Weave very much. In certain areas of Wild Magic, I'd say the rules would change, having multipul effects that could make both of your lives hell, but that's in a specific location. But you have to understand that a Druid draws on divine energy, not arcane and I'm under the impression that the Weave doesn't have an affect on Divine magic-users. So it's just 1 guy with lots of spells active, which isn't a drain on the Weave at all.
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Edited by - Diffan on 07 Nov 2010 16:03:19 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 16:34:56
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I for one don't consider the mechanics in this question. If in their game they have uncovered an ancient secret of some sort, so be it.
As for how it would have influence over the weave, my thought would be that it wouldn't really bother it at all. Magic items are essentially long lasting "buffs" all on their own. I don't imagine that these multiple layers of protective wards would illicit a response from Mystra...but if others found out the characters could do it they might get LOTS of visits from the likes of Zhentarim wizards and Red Wizards bent on learning the secret! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 17:53:26
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Using Arcane magic in the normal fashion (only spells through 9th lev) and practicing moderation (no 'super magic', and not too much in a concentrated area) should never have any affect on the Weave.
What you are doing there (other then power-gaming/min-maxing) is not within the spirit of the game, but if anything, it should strengthen the Weave (because Mystra is the sentience of the weave, and the practice of Arcane magic strengthens her and therefor strenghtens the Weave itself).
Edit: As for your game itself, if your DM is worth his salt, he should have a least a hundred ways to deal with this (I know I would). The most obvious that comes to mind are magic-'eating'* creatures (and there are quite a few if you look around) coming at the Party constantly. In the world of magic-eaters, your characters should be lighting-up like the buffet at Sizzler. Tomb-tappers, Wizshades, Spellweavers, etc, etc... will all be drawn to them.
*And by 'eating' I mean actual ingestion of magical energies, or creatures that are just drawn to magic and magical items for whatever reason. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Nov 2010 18:03:52 |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 19:20:18
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It's basically using the stacking rules of stacking multiple effects into the same item (in DMG) to create multiple eternal wands in one wand, and then using persistent spell and the metamagic item infusion with a rod of lesser extend on the metamagic item infusion, to get that entire wand's effects to be persistent, and then casting the numerous buffs from that.
And the DM is okay with this -- the concept of this particular game is poking the setting & system with a stick, like I said. This makes those spells last 24 hours, and the characters simply do the routine every morning.
And yea, I totally expect certain types of things to be drawn to these characters because of this... and of COURSE the DM will have ways to deal with it -- this just means that certain types of threats aren't really threats to these characters any more!
Also, about half of the effects on the item are 'neither arcane nor divine' (IE, artificer based, but I think it defaults to being mostly like arcane in how it affects the world...), and the other half, the druid contributed to, so they are Divine. |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 07 Nov 2010 19:50:16 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 21:06:35
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| It's just really two wands, really. We just combined a ton of low level, minimum caster level spells into the wands... and most of the spells would need to be UMD'd anyway, since they aren't arcane... |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 22:25:32
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| Stolen? They wands are only brought out of the portable hole / bag of holding / the hidden command word activated parts of the belt of many pockets when they are used in the morning, then put away again. And the two characters never need to sleep ever, any more... And I believe Sunder (in combat) can only target weapons and shields... |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 07 Nov 2010 22:27:13 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 22:41:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Gavinfoxx
Stolen? They wands are only brought out of the portable hole / bag of holding / the hidden command word activated parts of the belt of many pockets when they are used in the morning, then put away again. And the two characters never need to sleep ever, any more... And I believe Sunder (in combat) can only target weapons and shields...
Your 8th level characters seem to be doing okay if they have a portable hole, bag of holding and belt of many pockets.
Given you ackowledge the "poke both with a stick" basis of the campaign, I query whether you are simply looking to spice up the game event-wise focused on the party's magic use or you are looking to limit the characters access to the magic set-up they have created (presumably with the DM's agreement)?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2010 : 23:32:36
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Maybe their DM used to host that game show Let's Make a Deal.
I gave out a +1 sword once...... ONCE. 
When you hold all the cards in your hand it is no longer a game, it is merely an exercise in self-adulation and aggrandizement. The 'fun' is beating it on your own merit. Its like playing monopoly and starting-out with all the properties - it's kinda pointless.
But to each his own - I personally enjoy a feeling of accomplishment - generous DMs are cheating their players out of the most rewarding part of the game, IMHO.
Gavin, would your players be disappointed if their neat tricks did NOT break the Weave? Is that also the point of your game? You say you guys are purposely trying to break the rules, but are you also trying to break the setting?
I can guarantee you your DM is playing with players who have read the books better then he has - you shouldn't be able to do what your doing at those levels. You see, I know this, because back in 2e I used to do the exact same thing to poor, unsuspecting DMs - I was doing many things I shouldn't have been able to do. It got boring fast. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 03:25:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Maybe their DM used to host that game show Let's Make a Deal.
I gave out a +1 sword once...... ONCE.
When you hold all the cards in your hand it is no longer a game, it is merely an exercise in self-adulation and aggrandizement. The 'fun' is beating it on your own merit. Its like playing monopoly and starting-out with all the properties - it's kinda pointless.
But to each his own - I personally enjoy a feeling of accomplishment - generous DMs are cheating their players out of the most rewarding part of the game, IMHO.
Gavin, would your players be disappointed if their neat tricks did NOT break the Weave? Is that also the point of your game? You say you guys are purposely trying to break the rules, but are you also trying to break the setting?
I can guarantee you your DM is playing with players who have read the books better then he has - you shouldn't be able to do what your doing at those levels. You see, I know this, because back in 2e I used to do the exact same thing to poor, unsuspecting DMs - I was doing many things I shouldn't have been able to do. It got boring fast.
Theres a big difference between being Monty Haul and giving whatever you players desire and loot all the time and actually following the rules of character wealth by level. Magical items are apart of the game. It's so ingrained into the mechanics that without them, not even your very best build (min/max-ed to all hells) is going to be of much good at upper levels of play (this even goes for the heavy 3 [druid, cleric, wizard]).
Also, I found a quick nugget of info by doing a Google search. Eternal Wands aren't classified as wands, but Wondrous Items so Wand Mastery doesn't work. Nor are they a spell-trigger item, so Metamagic item infusion doesn't work either. I understand your DM is cool with it, and that's all well and good. I just wanted to be clear that it's not do-able by the rules.
Happy gaming!! |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 04:34:07
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I'm a player, not the DM. But we are all kinda working together on this...
Well, we started out, um, technically under the wealth by level curve in 'treasure' (ie, found money). The artificer just... really made what money we got into magic items very, very efficiently. And then a situation came up where, uh, one of the characters managed to earn a large amount of money by doing paid spellcasting to a city, and then we spent two months changing that into magic spellcasting items, so we ended up with all of this.
And since it's mostly lots of low level spells cast at the lowest possible caster level, you're right, it probably wouldn't do much to the Weave.
The only problem is we are reaalllyyy vulnerable to dispels of various sorts. We're gonna have to figure out some ways of resisting various dispelling spells!
Edit: Hmmm, spell trigger. We're going to have to figure out some official house rules to explain the behavior of the multiple eternal wand types we've been talking about... hmmm... |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 08 Nov 2010 05:04:12 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 11:24:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Gavinfoxx
The only problem is we are reaalllyyy vulnerable to dispels of various sorts. We're gonna have to figure out some ways of resisting various dispelling spells!
AFAIK, there is no way to resist any kind of dispel magics, even spell resistance.
I'm curious as to which spells you have at the same time. I find it hard to find 50 low-level spells that can ALL stack and not overlap.
As for your question, as other said before, if anything Mystra will be pleased, certainly not offended or weakened. If she was that weak, she could get killed with a simple strike to the head with a staff (now wait a minute...) |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 11:46:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
If she was that weak, she could get killed with a simple strike to the head with a staff (now wait a minute...)
Don't know what you are meaning |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 11:55:28
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| Cyric stole Azuth's staff while Shar danced to distract him. Mystra died of a blow to the head with that staff. This info comes from here in Candlekeep, it seems it has been in revealed in a recent novel (can't remember which) |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 12:33:13
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No she didn't ;)
This scene was a future vision Aliisza got in the Fractured Sky. What really happened when Shar and Cyric killed Mystra later wasn't told in the books, just the fact that they had killed her. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 08 Nov 2010 12:34:02 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 13:14:54
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| Oh, good to know. |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 14:53:48
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I can totally see where you are coming from, OP!
I have considered the implications of using optimized/pseudo-optimized builds on the Weave! And I think you have a good point! Certainly a group of casters using these types of exploits wouldn't have an effect on the Weave, but what about 10's of thousands of casters??
Oh, and @MT: ONCE you gave out a +1 sword? I certainly hope you've either a)not played much, or b) 'cheat' when it comes to running scenarios, because characters in 3.x DnD require wealth along their development curve!
@Kilvan
There are ways to resist dispel magic!
Back at the OP: Too bad the trick you are using does not work under 3.5 rules!! Maybe instead of poking fun at the system, you and your group could LEARN it!! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 16:51:34
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I seriously doubt a pair of mid-level mages can hurt the weave.
Certainly gods can hurt the weave, probably big-name Chosen sorts (entry-level divine ranks) and artifact wielders, possibly even massed armies of wizards doing battle (remember Thay). Even then, the damage is usually localized and rarely long-lasting. If you want to be technical, then spells like Anti-Magic Shell hurt the weave, even 0-level cantrips must put some strain on the weave. Then again, the Weave is described as being an organic "living" thing which can somehow self-regenerate, plus it's carefully attended by at least one powerful goddess - in short, it's a renewable natural resource.
But seriously, think about the scales and magnitudes here.
Let's say that all of the billions of people on our world simultaneously drink as much water as they can. They just guzzle it back, and at any particular time a lot of them must certainly be very thirsty, and some are just able to consume an astonishing quantity of liquid. This would be an impressive event involving an awfully impressive volume of water. And yet the oceans of the world wouldn't move by even the barest fraction of an inch.
Don't like the water analogy? Maybe everybody simultaneously inhales? Or jumps off the ground? Doesn't matter - the ratio of Planet-vs-People is still overwhelming because of their vastly differing orders of magnitude.
I'm not saying the resource is infinite nor that it cannot be diminished. But it'd take a whole lot more than just a couple of guys waving their wands and buffs around. How many buffs, items, and spells do guys like Elminster wear? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Nov 2010 16:59:58 |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 17:02:13
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Eh, it's doable without house rules, we'd just have to use normal wands, scepters, and staves (or one staff or scepter, combined with a bunch of wands, scepters, and/or other staffs per the DMG combining rules... probably made with most of the spells having 5 charges or so..) and refill the charges with XP, I think there are some spells that let you do that...
There are house rules in effect in the game. I talked to the DM, and we have two versions of 'eternal wands' in the game so far. Here's what I suggested, and he seemed to be pretty much okay with it, except for the middle on:
1.) As spell trigger items, IE, they are either divine, arcane, or neither. If the wand is divine, than any divine caster with that spell on their list can cast that spell. If it is arcane, than an arcane caster who has that spell on their list can activate the wand. If it is neither, than use magic device must be used to activate the wand, but it is still considered a spell trigger item. One that is neither arcane nor divine can, with a small ritual including the arcane or divine casting of that spell, from the caster level and spell level that UMD simulated, upgrade it into arcane or divine.
2.) As a wondrous item that is not a spell trigger item that is considered arcane. With this, anyone with any access to arcane spells (ie, most gnomes, for example) can activate the wand, but it can only hold arcane spells. Of course this isn't an issue, since someone somewhere has basically any given divine spell as an arcane spell, and an artificer just UMD's the check to do that. Strangely enough, this is the one the DM likes *least*, and this is the one in the Magic Item Compendium...
3.) As a more generic wondrous item that simply happens to be in the shape of a wand. This generally has a command word, and is more like a double use of those Drow Insignia items. These are generally not considered arcane or divine, but that hardly matters, since any fool can cast the spell therein with the command word...
NOTE: I presented the "You can only persist spells of fixed or personal, unless you get Reach Spell or Ocular Spell, and then you can get it to work on touch range spells, as they now have a fixed reach" thing to the DM and he *hated* that rule, and just broadly said that you can persist most spells that satisfy the other clauses too. So in your all's games you might have to get Extend / Ocular / Persist to get all of these to work.
OTHER NOTE: After presenting the many, many options of getting 'eternal' spells (ie, in an item that refresh every day) to the dm, (IE, Eternal Wands, Some rods of specific spells, Specific Wondrous Items, Schema, Spell Clocks, Drow Insignia, Spell Turrets, A few different versions on the idea of 'Runes', the Magical Trap rules in the DMG, the Customizing Magic Items rules in the DMG, etc.), he got crossed eyes and made a feat that consolidated a bunch of those options under one feat to simplify the things, and made some house rules that this sort of thing was generalizable, mostly. We enjoy this thing, this is us poking the system with a stick!
And you all want the list of spells? Sure sure! Let me go get it..
Resist Energy, Spell Level 1, Caster level 1
Avoid Planar Effects, Spell Level 2, Caster Level 2
Tremorsense, Spell Level 2, Caster Level 1
Polymorph, Spell Level 4, Caster Level 8
Xorn Movement, Spell Level 5, Caster Level 1
Guided Shot, Spell Level 1, Caster Level 1
Wind Tunnel, Spell Level 5, caster level 1
Sheltered Vitality, Spell Level 4, Caster Level 1
Heroics, Spell Level 2, Caster Level 1
Stoneskin, Spell Level 2, Caster Level 8
Divine Agility, Spell Level 5, Caster Level 1
Wraithstrike, Spell Level 3, Caster level 1
Magic Vestment, Spell Level 3, Caster Level 8
Fuse Arms, Spell Level 2, Caster Level 1 (We favor Girallons with the Polymorph... DM said we are allowed to go one iteration down the Girallon's Arms / Fuse Frms 'infinite strength' loop, but we haven't yet done that)
Greater Vigor, Spell Level 5, Caster Level 1
Heart of Air, Spell Level 2, Caster Level 1
Heart of Earth, Spell Level 4, Caster Level 1
Heart of Fire, Spell Level 5, Caster Level 1
Heart of Water, Spell Level 3, Caster Level 1
Greater Invisibility, Spell Level 4, Caster Level 1
See Invisibility, Spell Level 1, Caster Level 1
Delay Death, Spell Level 4, Caster Level 1
Enlarge Person, Spell Level 1, Caster Level 1
Spikes, Spell Level 3, Caster Level 8
Bite of the Werebear, Spell Level 4, Caster Level 8
Treasure Scent, Spell Level 2, Caster Level 1
Scintillating Scales, Spell Level 2, Caster Level 1
Telepathic Bond, Spell Level 5, Caster Level 3
Disobedience, Spell Level 3, Caster Level 1
I don't immediately have the spell level and caster levels we managed for these, but here is some more we have:
Haste
Footsteps of the Divine
Aerial Alacrity
Freedom of Movement
Of course this isn't all the buffs we generally have up when going into combat, there are a few items here and there, and the Druid favors a number of useful spells (Greater Magic Fang, Venomfire, Greater Luminous Armor..)! |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 08 Nov 2010 17:11:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 17:17:39
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Sorry if I came off a bit harsh in my earlier post - it wasn't intentional. I fully understand everyone enjoys the game differently, and if you guys are having fun, more power to you.
And as Diffan pointed out, I WAS RIGHT - without bothering to look at the specific rules myself I knew right off the bat your DM didn't fully understand them. 
The rules work quite well, until someone purposely tries to get stuff past an inexperienced DM (and like I said, I was guilty of this in 2e, with a young DM I trained, which makes it so much worse).
In my defense, his friends/players were a bunch of jerks who spent more time killing each other then they did adventuring, and he let them get away with whatever they wanted, so I figured "when in Rome...". Min-maxing and rules-bending was the only way I could keep up with that lot.
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
No she didn't ;)
This scene was a future vision Aliisza got in the Fractured Sky. What really happened when Shar and Cyric killed Mystra later wasn't told in the books, just the fact that they had killed her.
As explained retroactively, after a huge fan-backlash.
I seriously doubt it was originally intended as 'just a vision'.
Why the... heck... would an author write a scene in a novel that didn't really take place? That's the biggest piece of bu... hogwash... to come out of 4e (and there was an awful amount of back-peddling/BS in that first year of release). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Nov 2010 17:20:07 |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 17:32:36
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| Well, I did present what it would take to do this by the book... I believe the optimal way would be to use scepters (those don't seem to have the huge GP tax that staves do), as those have one pool of charges for two spells, up to spell level 6, and simply combine lots of scepters into one, and give them each maybe 8 or 10 charges or so, and then recharge each pool as needed, and the DM is okay with letting our house rule (now written down more explicitly) stand. |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 08 Nov 2010 19:10:59 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 17:45:24
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@ Markustay: Wait, since when was min/maxing considered bad or out-of-taste (so long as it's within the rules)? For myself, I condider optimization a key ingredient in the character creation process. Lets face it, no one wants to play a sub-par character when an average or better character can have the same flavor or fluff.
For an example, most of my characters don't utilize skills such as Craft, Perform, Decipher Script, and Profession. Yea, they're interesting, I guess, and can have some benefits but to me, wasting skill points (a finite resource) on something that can be explained with in-depth character backround isn't worth it. I'd rather tune my characters towards combat where the roll of dice is really concerned.
I guess it's just a different style of play, but min/maxing isn't bad as long as it's within the rules and at least somewhat plausable for a character (hence no LG Troll paladin 4/cleric 1/fist of Raziel 8/crusader 3/ruby knight vindicator 3 BS). |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 18:34:17
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I agree only insofar as builds are min/maxed, not optimized. This may be a narrow distinctiom, but the ramifications are apparent. A truly optimized 3.5 character build can have devastating effects on the game.
I'm probably drawing a fine line, here, though. Of course one should maximize gains and minimize benefits. Optimization, is, however, a whole 'nother ball game.
I'll take a closer look at the combo described above when I have my books, lol. Whether it's legit, without house-ruling, is kinda' irrelevant. There are *vastly* more powerful optimizations in3.5!!
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
@ Markustay: Wait, since when was min/maxing considered bad or out-of-taste (so long as it's within the rules)? For myself, I condider optimization a key ingredient in the character creation process. Lets face it, no one wants to play a sub-par character when an average or better character can have the same flavor or fluff.
For an example, most of my characters don't utilize skills such as Craft, Perform, Decipher Script, and Profession. Yea, they're interesting, I guess, and can have some benefits but to me, wasting skill points (a finite resource) on something that can be explained with in-depth character backround isn't worth it. I'd rather tune my characters towards combat where the roll of dice is really concerned.
I guess it's just a different style of play, but min/maxing isn't bad as long as it's within the rules and at least somewhat plausable for a character (hence no LG Troll paladin 4/cleric 1/fist of Raziel 8/crusader 3/ruby knight vindicator 3 BS).
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 18:39:18
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Oh, here's a house-rule from my campaign!
Exploits are fully 'Legend-Loreable'. So, if you can throw 24 copper coins simultaeneously and kill a wyrm red dragon, anyone with access to 'Legend Lore' can learn of your exploit. |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 19:04:55
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If you want craft, perform, decipher script, or profession, pick up a spell that gives you competency, 'trained' in it, and at least a +5 bonus to it... that's mostly what we do.. but the artificer DEFINITELY has craft, and ways to make very very fast craft checks...
But anyway, most of our tricks permanent stuff isn't easily duplicatable, but the *characters* could probably manage to research some of the other tricks for permanent spells, and maybe come up with knowledge of the Nighstick thing or some of the Incantatrix's / Incantatar's tricks, and maybe the psionic chirurgery thing... So if powerful wizards *ask* about it, we might be able to tell them. Really, we're an adventuring company. We solve problems. If a powerful and 'not hideously evil' wizard commissions us to figure out most of the tricks that would allow one to do persistent spell stuff, we'd likely buff our knowledge checks to the 50's (at least...), come up with answers, and tell them!
Oh, I got the number 40 from the number of castings, I suppose -- many of these will have to be cast multiple times for different effects, and they will take one casting for one character, another for another, etc. |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 08 Nov 2010 19:42:27 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 19:05:53
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Two examples of what I did:
A human 'dwarf' (little person), who was adopted by a group of circus dwarves, who were themselves part of a ring of thieves (the circus was a traveling front for pickpockets and such).
The boy grew a beard, looked and acted like a dwarf, and since he was raised by dwarves he got many of their benefits (that's one of those 'gray areas' you can weedle out of newbie DMs). Until he was about thirteen, when his wrist was grabbed by a mage he was trying to rob, and the boy accidentally set-off the wand in the mages pocket. The Mage was so fascinated with the prospect of a dwarven Wizard (which didn't exist in 2e) that he bought the boy from the circus and made him his apprentice. My character entered the game a Rog3/Wiz2, and the other players couldn't figure-out how I was playing a Dwarven Mage within the RAW. 
That's an example of back-story giving you stuff you normally shouldn't have.
I wrote another back-story for my Firbolg, who was a Barbarian Shaman Runecaster. He also entered the game at lev 5 (my bro-in-law got bored running games for low-levs, so he started everyone out at 5). He fortuitously overlooked the ECL when I started that uber-tank. Lets just say he was an unstoppable juggernaught.
Min-maxing is fine, though not really in the 'spirit of the game', but what I was doing there (and Gavin's group seems to be doing) is bending the rules way past breakage. Its actually cheating.
However, since 'Rule Zero' is part of the game, anything your DM will allow is 'legal', so whatever you can get past him works.
I normally don't play that way, but that was a group teenagers and it was all good, and we still had fun. Sometimes you have to adjust your own preferences to the people you run with.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Nov 2010 19:07:09 |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 20:39:06
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In the 2e "Rules As Written" (RAW), you can't gain the benefits of dwarven racial traits via adoption.
*That* is cheating!
What the OP's group is doing is optimizing, finding exploits within the RAW. This is *not* cheating. However, these optimization exploits, due to errors in game design, can be bad for games. |
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Overdoing long-lasting buff spells-hurt the Weave?
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