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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 13:41:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen
If you mean Shade, as opposed to Netheril and the Shadovar, we can indeed count them out. Shade lost a significant portion of their military during The Return and Siege of Evereska. The major demonic threat was dealt with directly during The Crusade. The Phaerimm nests were rooted up during The Return, as well. Myth Drannor's mythal was repaired/re-raised during the events of The Crusade, so we can eliminate Wild Magic as a threat, as well.
Ummm... No, Shade didn't. Since they were able to take over Sembia. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 13:54:08
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Ummm... Yes, Shade did. It is a recurring point of conflict in RotA. Telemont repeatedly berates his sons for their military losses. At one point, it is stated that 1/2 of Shades military is out-of-commission. Please don't make me go looking for page numbers! That series was horrible!
You *are* familiar with "The Twilight War", Ashe Ravenheart?
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen
If you mean Shade, as opposed to Netheril and the Shadovar, we can indeed count them out. Shade lost a significant portion of their military during The Return and Siege of Evereska. The major demonic threat was dealt with directly during The Crusade. The Phaerimm nests were rooted up during The Return, as well. Myth Drannor's mythal was repaired/re-raised during the events of The Crusade, so we can eliminate Wild Magic as a threat, as well.
Ummm... No, Shade didn't. Since they were able to take over Sembia.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 14:22:37
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*Casts Ignore Troll*
I also came in just after the ToT, so the event itself never caused me any problems. My problem, when I finally got around to reading that series, is that the books are horribly written.
Best RSE, huh? Hmm. Well, I liked the re-taking of Myth Drannor, with some caveats (one of them being Wooly's point). But I think the one that was best constructed was the Rage. It builds on established lore, is centered on on particular area (and one that doesn't get a lot of love, even), has some long-lasting repurcussions without nuking everything in sight, and the novels weren't that bad either. Some of the plot threads used go way back to 1e (the original mention of Flights and Rages of dragons) or 2e (especially the Cult of the Dragon book). And all the events stem from the completely in-character actions of a single long-standing villain. So yeah, I think the Rage worked out well. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 14:55:11
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| I'm in agreement with Hoondathat. The Rage was done well without doing too drastic a change, but was significant enough to be sonsidered an RSE. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 16:25:52
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Well, now that we can fully acnkowledge that the 'twisted magic' of Myth Drannor was repaired when the mythal was, (previous lore indicates that is was the damaged/aging mythal which caused these effects), and that *most* of the "nastybads" had been eliminated at the time of the Crusade, (Phaerimm nests were disrupted by the Siege, lower planar beasts routed by The Crusade) what 'exactly' could stop an Army of Elves, lead by a Reborn Elven Champion of Reknown, backed up by the Srinshee?
Really, I'm curious. Because it seems like 'the forces of good', as El Aumar likes to rant, prevailed. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 16:40:09
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| For the RSE's I liked, I'd have to go with ToT (it was, after all, how I got into the Realms) and the Twilight War. Both had great story elements and characters. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 17:36:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
I also liked the retaking of Myth Drannor (I am such an elf fangirl). I keep thinking about picking up the Dracorage books, but so far it hasn't gotten out of concept phase. Strangely enough, I haven't actually read all that many of the RSE books.
My one quibble about the Crusade was that in the epilogue, we see that five years later, Myth Drannor is once more a living city. In my opinion, even with a couple thousand elves, it still should have taken longer than that to retake/rebuild the entire city.
This is my major problem with the Crusade as well, as it isn't as if the city hasn't been the focus of a lot of different efforts to loot it by powerful groups and yet they couldn't even manage that, yet somehow a few elves in just five years, no time at all to that race, had made the city safe to live in again? That stretches believability. In my Realms the city is still in the retaking stage, the elves have a foothold but the surface drow, the various powerful fiends and monsters, and other interested power groups still hold much of the city. Also the Daemonfey weren't completely wiped out and are still a threat, if a less major one. |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 17:54:09
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I was referring to the retaking of Myth Drannor as a work in progress. Even if the mythal is fixed, there would still be a lot of big nasties still running round in the area for a while... to say nothing of the unpleasant neighbors. Perhaps it's a way of saying that the elves managed to make a secure base from which they can deal with everything else.
It's just a thought.  |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 19:47:57
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Fair enough.
My opinions of series I haven't read are based on what people have told me (mostly back in the day when the WotC FR site was not a ghost-town).
And I do not judge things by who my friends are - Lord Karaus and I fought over more things then we ever agreed on. 
What I do is the same thing a detective does - I listen to all the stories and distill the truth out of it (seeing which 'facts' remain consistent from interview to interview).
There are some series that are 50/50 when it comes to folks having liked it (and there are all different versions of why people like FR novels, but that gets factored-in as well). If someone tells me the series is chock-full of lore but the story fell-short, then it goes on my 'must read' list, regardless of story. The lore is more important to me.
Most series - especially the RSE ones - are around 75/25, with a majority either liking it or hating it. Either way, depending upon the comments (and preferences) of those critiquing, I decide for myself weather I will read it (once again, how good it is comes second to the lore involved, in my case).
Other series start to move into the 90% dislike bracket... I find myself hard-pressed to read it then. However, I will eventually come around if people give me enough reason to read them (as is the case of both the Archwizards and Dracorage series, thanks to coments in the other thread).
Some series, like the Elven Return, I simply don't read because the subject matter is a snore-fest for me (have I mentioned I don't like Elves?) I avoid Harper novels for much the same reason, regardless of who writes them. I'm not a fan of Harpers... sorry (so put away an thoughts of me being an 'Ed Cheerleader' - the man is amazing, but not perfect).
But there is only one series I have found EVERYONE detested, weather you like the subject matter, are a fan of lore, good story, character & plot development, etc... doesn't matter. there was a universal backlash of derision for that particular series that was astounding, which is why i have formulated the opinion I have, REGARDLESS of having read it or not. I'd like to explain myself further, but I've side-tracked this thread enough, and don't feel like getting another locked.
Which brings me right back around to the OP: I think I find the Spellplague the most sensible and acceptable simply because we have no bad lore surrounding it, IMHO (now that Aliisza(?)'s vision has proven just that - a vision and nothing more). The results of the Spellplague FIT what happened, plain and simple. In nearly every other RSE, the 'shaking' was barely a tremble - no long-term results were felt. If you are going to have an RSE, then make it count.
The Spellplague certainly did.
And I am NOT saying I am a fan of the spellplague - FAR from - but when asked which one made the most sense IMHO, then I have to go with the one I liked the least, simply because the results (mass destruction and change) were logical.
Which goes back to folks' comments in this thread about 'instant cities' (Khelben built one in a few hours  ). Zhentil Keep (in 2e) came back WAY faster then it should have. In fact, All cities recover way faster then they should after these supposed RSE's. In many cases, its like nothing ever happened (at least Ed/Elaine was clever-enough to mention the damn Threat from the Sea series in Waterdeep!)
Its a little too 'comic-bookish' when a major event has NO long-term affects. How many times has Metropolis been totaled during Superman's fights? Or Tokyo when Godzilla goes on a rampage? In those IPs they have to make it so that 'life returns to normal', despite the absurdity of it, and that's what the Realms does. Life must go on - so they simply hit the 'reset' button so the next story can be told.
In the RW, people would move as far away from Metropolis as they could just to get away from that trouble-magnet Kryptonian - the guy is a friggin' hazard! And that's why if asked which RSE makes the most sense to me, I HAVE TO pick the Spellplague, because the results were very real and felt worldwide.
quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And if it counts, the Fall of Athalantar. If you think about it, the events surrounding it's fall had MUCH larger and longer-reaching repercussions then most 5 RSEs combined.
I am laughing out loud at the quote above! You, Ed Greenwood, and Saer Aumar *vastly* over-estimate Elminster's influence! I would put forth that this is the cornerstone of Elminster's insanity! He *actually* believes that he is 'saving' the Realms, when in fact he is merely muddling up his and others lives! Oh, my! Not to mention his ludicrous diatribes! If the "Fall of Athalantar" is a RSE, then so is... Uhm, everything?
Then your 'deeper understanding' of the Realms falls short.
The fall of Athalantar created the man who became Elminster, and Elminster in-turn has trained many Mages (some good, some bad) and Chosen, and has steered the course of history in one of the most relevant Faerūnian nations. He has literally 'saved the world' at least twice I can think of, and saved it from outside threats on numerous occasions (like the Malaugrym).
Elminster is THE prime-example of the Butterfly effect on Toril - without him, the world would be a very different place (if it even existed at all). One could even wonder if Mystra didn't steer the events in Athalanter to create the precise conditions to craft her 'ultimate tool'.
Because Mystra is a sentient artifact - the consciousness of the Weave - and an artifact is nothing more then a 'magical machine', and machines need their tools - its how they stay running. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Nov 2010 19:40:33 |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 21:23:44
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Not to mention how ridiculous - - and rude - - it is to presume to "correct" the creator of a published world about his view of a character he created, in the world he created.
Yes, Acolyte Thirteen, I'm referring to the post at the top of this page of the thread. So Ed Greenwood gets it wrong about Elminster? Tell me, would you have walked up to Tolkien and told him he got Middle-Earth wrong, according to your superior vision of things?
Just asking...
BB |
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 21:30:16
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Yes, I thought that was a bit over the line, too. We don't need Candlekeep to turn into one more nasty board of personal attacks on the creators and snippy comments at other posters because they happen to have opinions that differ from yours.
I agree with Markustay: gods should be better than mortals in various ways, and for some deities, it could well be manipulating events far more subtly and effectively than any mere human could. Elminster and the other Chosen may well have a huge impact on the Realms, thanks to Mystra and Azuth's guidance. It certainly seems so, from ALL WE HAVE READ about the Realms; beats me why Acolyte thinks differently, if he's read all the Realmslore.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 21:40:30
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| I've reached the point in the 'keep now that I don't respond to "new" posters if they create accounts with no personal information. That tells me they are here to be social. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 23:43:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I've reached the point in the 'keep now that I don't respond to "new" posters if they create accounts with no personal information. That tells me they are here to be social.
I don't really mind the lack of personal information. Some people have their reasons to remain anonymous. My only basis for casting 'Ignore it' spell, or (as some call it) 'Ignore troll' is the poster's 'colorful' language. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 23:52:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Not to mention how ridiculous - - and rude - - it is to presume to "correct" the creator of a published world about his view of a character he created, in the world he created.
Yes, Acolyte Thirteen, I'm referring to the post at the top of this page of the thread. So Ed Greenwood gets it wrong about Elminster? Tell me, would you have walked up to Tolkien and told him he got Middle-Earth wrong, according to your superior vision of things?
Just asking...
BB
I'm inclined to agree with both Blueblade and Broken Helm. We don't need this kind of nonsense here.
I'd ask that we all please move on. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 07:36:46
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| The reclaiming of Myth Drannor was well done... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 09:58:05
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Just curious about the thoughts of my fellow scribes.
Does the material written in Arcane Ages technically count as RSEs?
It's undeniably true that the rise and fall of Netheril, ascension of Karsus, death of Mystryl, and all that sort of stuff was globally apocalyptic, ushered in a new roster of gods, and changed the face of Faerūn forever. Classic RSE hallmarks.
But (outside of campaigns played within this "new" Arcane Age setting, of course) these events didn't really alter the existing Realms at all ... they just added a richer historical depth to the world (and even acknowledge a plausible retrograded framework for the existence of 1st edition rules) instead of rattling the Realms around to violently shake out the old lore and make room for the new. The only rules changed in this manner by these RSEs are the ones introduced internally for pre-RSE Arcane Age-based campaigns. In short, descriptions of events millennia past were added to the Realms without actually taking anything away. Some new (though very old) pieces were placed in the big picture without causing any disruption whatsoever and remained perfectly consistent with all established setting lore.
(Always allowing, of course, for possible conflicts with any homebrew campaign settings creative DMs may have devised - just as with any other new lore that canonically introduces details for a previously ignored and isolated region, with or without the presence of an RSE.)
Given this context, I would claim these were by far the best and most cleverly engineered canonical RSEs yet written.
And - aside from a handful of demented madmen who still religiously worship Karsus - I don't recall ever hearing a single dissenting voice crying out in anger that the fall of Netheril was unjustly caused by the unbridled greed and ambitions of arrogant all-powerful wizards playing at being gods. (Even though, quite ironically, that is the exact cause of this particular RSE.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Nov 2010 14:15:53 |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 13:32:19
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I am very suprised by these visceral reactions! Interesting that the definition of RSE's is evolving as we speak! Not until now has events like "the fall of Athalantar" and "the fall of Netheril" been considered RSE's.
Blue Blade, I'm not sure you fully understand my point! I articulated my point very well, as well!
Oh well, no reason to waste words! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 13:54:58
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Ah. I suppose I'm alone in thinking of Netheril as an RSE.
I do have to agree that Athalantar hardly even begins to approach the scope and magnitude of a real RSE. It's just not an event of lasting significance; rearranging some borders, nations, and cities on a map is not at all the same thing as reshaping the mountains, deserts, oceans, and continents on the map. Let alone changing the rules of magic, gods, and the cosmos. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Nov 2010 14:00:19 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 14:03:19
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| I would consider the fall of netheril as an RSE. I can see people not viewing it as such since it is an historical event, and wasn't something that changed the published realms. Most people I guess see RSEs as something that changes the enviroment they game in or read about. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 14:08:01
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| Well, since "the definition of RSE's is evolving as we speak" does the "S" in "RSE" stand for "Shattering", "Shaking", or "Shaping"? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Nov 2010 14:08:51 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 14:26:32
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| I have never heard of the S standing for "Shaping." And though I'm an old enough hand that I was around when the term was coined, I can't remember its exact wordage. I've also used it to mean "Shaking," since up until the Spellplague none of them were really, truly "shattering." |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 14:35:40
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Of course the Fall of Netheril is an RSE! Without Karsus' Avatar, Faerun would be a very different place a thousand years after. Who knows? Maybe Netheril would have become so powerful that they could have caused the destruction of the very plane. Mystra's Ban DOES makes sense, and in a way, has more repercussion than the ToT.
I love the Shades, but the Return was OK, at best. And I prefer Myth Drannor in its current PC-trap state  .
However, I do not think that Lolth's Silence was an RSE, at all! She left the Abyss, big deal! And that's coming from someone who rather enjoyed the serie, despite a few characters I absolutely HATED, (couldn't stand Halisstra), or some major character shifts from a book to another (Quenthel's were the worsts). |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 15:47:43
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The Fall is an RSE. At first I thought it was a plain disaster.
Exterminate an entire magical empire (so puissant no sane person would dare mess with) as if its denizens were mere insignificant insects? Totally preposterous. With all their might, and knowing that their cities' ability to float was dependent on the Weave, the archwizards should have had some contingencies in the event the source of their magic shattered. They're mad, but far from stupid.
The survivors (the city of Shade, Selunnara, Larloch, the Halruaans, and a few others) somehow abated my dislike at the Fall. They may just be a tiny portion of their lost empire; their combined strength may be way puny compared to that of Old Netheril; but still, through them, Netheril survived. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 12 Nov 2010 15:50:17 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 16:09:08
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Well, Netheril was deliberately designed to be sacrificed. The theme of people living in or slightly after a dark age, in the shadow of a once-mighty lost civilization and empire with astonishingly advanced magic/science/technology/art/culture/etc is a necessary staple in most fantasy, FR included. Without a place like Netheril, the "current" Realms setting would have to be one that dragged itself out of the mud (with a paltry stone/bronze age history to offer and no believable excuse for human upstarts somehow dominating a properly elven/dwarven world). Or approximately on par with Netheril's loftiest glory (if not escalated far beyond it through the millenia).
Netheril served the purpose (even long before Arcane Ages) of providing an endless source of ancient ruins, artifacts, and magical wonders that could far surpass anything the "modern" world understands or knows how to duplicate. Arcane Ages did us the service of introducing Larloch, Karsus, rules about arcanists, mythallar and other magics, consistent fleshing out of half-existing lore, piles of new lore, a handy place to bring together and more clearly define lost and primordial gods, a ton of historical details, better insights about places like Halruaa (and perhaps Thay), a nod to 1st edition, and a glimpse of a glowing fantasy utopia (and tarnished fantasy dystopia). Plus time travel and an entirely new (old) alternate campaign setting. Plus a few carefully planted seeds, once of which would subsequently blossom into Shade.
Netheril is sort of like a combination of Disney's Atlantis and Stargate's ancient Egypt (with a healthy dash of Rome's glory), bundled along with a shining example of the glories of humanity's mightiest golden accomplishments and a classy fantasy twist on the Tower-of-Babylon Aesop about mortals who falleth for daring to arrogantly reach unto the heavens. Refreshing to see a thoughtful and creative alternative to the easy clichés of global thermonuclear war, arbitrary smiting by angry gods, or spillover from the Blood War which a half-baked Netheril could have so easily provided.
I don't entirely like everything said about Netheril (though it grows on you), but all told I think it's well done and conceptually brilliant. I'm personally surprised that one of TSR/WotC's finest works was abandoned and coughed up as a freebie. As I said above, I think it's the only RSE yet written that is almost entirely uncontroversial and even universally embraced by the fans. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Nov 2010 16:47:57 |
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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker
51 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 16:46:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Mouse
Hard to say honestly. They all felt like giant marketing ploys.
If you follow comic books, you'd see that about in that same period as those RSE's happened that suddenly there were lots of "Big Change Crossover Nothing Will Ever Be The Same!" events that honestly did rather little, and were quickly forgotten, which is sometimes how I felt about the RSE's in recent memory.
I don't know why, but it was happening a LOT in the early and mid-2000's with a variety of stuff.
In the end though, just like in comics, there was one LARGE event that actually DID change stuff, some of which some people liked, and others whom hated it because it kind of only existed to blow up continuity and characters so that writers or developers had to work less hard.
Much of these changes in comics have been almost immediately reversed, except for the ones people liked.
So far, the Spellplague, the Timeskip, and the Abeir-thing are the big ACTUAL changes...if they get switched back (unlikely I think) I wouldn't be particularly surprised at this point.
I was more annoyed at the Edition change then the change in the Realms, because once I saw the massive rules shift I figured "oh hell, they're gonna have to change EVERYTHING to explain the differences, and they won't try to be subtle about it will they?".
Just marketing stuff really, as the RPG industry at the time wasn't making much in the way of money and had declining sales (comics weren't either, notably).
Well said.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I'm not sure if this is considered an RSE but the retaking of Myth Drannor by the elves. For too long, I've felt that the elven races of Faerun were just mirror images of Tolkien Elves. Always leaving the other races behind for greener pastures. It's fine for Tolkien and all but lets have some diversity, huh?! Not only were the books retaking Myth Drannor (and the series altogether) interesting and a great read IMHO but further defined elven culture, and showed how interesting the race really is.
I agree. Regardless if the noted event is considered RSE or not, I loved it. Let elves and elven culture rise and flourish again. Same goes for dwarves. Realms where they play only a marginal role and are on brink of extinction are not fun realms - in my book.
Tren |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 16:47:01
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The nigh-complete annihilation of the empire is just one of the things I don't really like about the Fall. Mystryl is the other one. I know 'tis impossible for a mere mortal to comprehend a deity's mind. She had reasons for doing what she did. But destroy an empire whose people did what she desired most---use the Art---and who, in the case of some, even worshiped her just so she could 'reboot' herself? Doesn't make sense. Karsus's power maybe equal to a god's, but Karus was still a mortal, so any sane being would assume that a goddess would not be so stupidly blind to his plan of usurping her throne to save his empire. She should have known his scheme, and prepared for it. Now, granted that she did, it would still lead to my previous question, which, again, doesn't make any sense. Instead of crushing Netheril, she should have eliminated the phaerimm, who wanted nothing but to monopolize magic in Toril.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 12 Nov 2010 16:54:40 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 17:11:46
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Realms literature has already demonstrated many times that the gods can be as small-minded, arrogant, and fallible as humans. Doesn't make sense to me either, dennis - I mean, they can maintain multiple consciousnesses, you'd figure even middle-ranked powers would have the brain power of 10 supergenius minds available just in their avatars, let alone whatever higher omnisentient cognitive essences they command, and their perfect consciousness of everything that touches upon their portfolios, and uncounted legions of servants and agents, and alliances with other divine powers.
Mystryl should indeed have known of Karsus' scheme; he couldn't possibly have devised a spell formula without her knowledge. But she didn't, so we get an RSE and a rebooted goddess of magic (which is quasi-handwaved into a retcon to explain 2nd edition magic rules, although the ToT RSE had already done the same thing).
Non-canon on the fly ideas here -
A suggestion which might explain this apparent inconsistency is that one or more of the other gods (and/or perhaps interloping powers from somewhere outside the Realms) were working to blind/distract Mystryl or otherwise conceal Karsus's plans (with or without his knowledge). Or had perhaps already even "chosen" Karsus and instilled some puny divine rank or energy so that he could (if careful) act magic completely "outside" of Mystryl's purview and/or attempt to cast his spell (which perhaps no mere mortal could normally do, at least not with any chance of success). Following this logic, Karsus's apparently tragic "failure" might have been engineered by some other divine power attempting to destroy the goddess of magic or steal her power. Netheril and Faerūn were just unfortunate collateral damage; unassisted, they'd have no chance anyways in a contest between gods.
Remember too that Karsus was special and gifted from birth; it's not impossible that he could have been conceived, at least in part, by divine intervention and born already possessing divine ranks/energy (although apparently nobody knew or could detect it, perhaps not even Mystryl) ... maybe ascending to godhood was just blind natural instinct but he was a flawed and unfit (half human) creature, or maybe it was all part of some divine agency's inconceivably complex plan.
My last suggestion is actually my first thought long ago when reading Netheril the first time. Perhaps Mystryl was simply weaker than Mystra. Mystryl's essence might be more "decentralized", spread throughout the Weave (which then held at least 12 spell levels of energy), so her actual manifest form could only command a small portion at any time (Mystra is individually much stronger since the "balance" of available mystical energy is weighted more inside her and less towards her merely 9th/10th level Weave construct). Maybe all the magics (or the weird Weave-propeller mythallars) of Netheril were placing a lot of strain and drain on Mystryl so she finally dipped down to a weakened state where Karsus and his puny 12th level spell could actually harm her. I actually contemplated that perhaps the "max level" parameter of the Weave might even be a function of resizing the distance of the Great Ring of outer planes from the central of the universe, the spire of the Concordant Outlands (max usable spell level diminishes as you approach the spire).
Maybe some good ideas or maybe not, but it all seems like useless mentalbabble to me - Netheril fell down, I just have to accept it. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Nov 2010 17:32:32 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 17:25:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Non-canon on the fly ideas here - the only argument I can suggest which might explain this apparent inconsistency is that one or more of the other gods (and/or perhaps interloping powers from somewhere outside the Realms) were working to blind/distract Mystryl or otherwise conceal Karsus's plans (with or without his knowledge). Or had perhaps already even "chosen" Karsus and instilled some puny divine rank or energy so that he could (if careful) act magic "outside" of Mystryl's influence and/or attempt to cast his spell (which perhaps no mere mortal could normally do, at least not with any chance of success). Following this logic, Karsus's apparently tragic "failure" might have been engineered by some other divine power attempting to destroy the goddess of magic or steal her power. Netheril and Faerūn were just unfortunate collateral damage; unassisted, they'd have no chance anyways in a contest between gods.
Interesting theory. BUT, blinding or distracting Mystryl wouldn't hinder her to create her own avatar to face Karsus while she fled to some distant world or unknown plane. There are a million possibilities that would explain her survival without necessarily rebooting herself.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Remember too that Karsus was special and gifted from birth; it's not impossible that he could have been conceived, at least in part, by divine intervention and born already possessing divine ranks/energy (although apparently nobody knew or could detect it, perhaps not even Mystryl) ... maybe ascending to godhood was just blind natural instinct but he was a flawed and unfit (half human) creature, or maybe it was all part of some divine agency's inconceivably complex plan.
I like that. However, I like it more that Karsus was a mere mortal. It's such a sweet reminder that even mortals - pure mortals - are capable of great things.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Netheril fell down, I just have to accept it.
Indeed. I did long ago. I'd moved on. I'm already happy that Shade and Larloch are staying. And would have been happier had Halruaa survived the SP. Apparently, I am partial to all things Netheril.  I even like the Night Parade (despite their garish, unvillain-ish name) just because they're Netherese. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 12 Nov 2010 19:37:41 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 17:54:02
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quote:
I even like the Night Parade (despite their garish, unvillain-ish name)
Oh, well that's an easy fix. "Night Parade" is just what ignorant parochial yokels (incapable of conceiving big words or real horror) would call them. They are more properly known as "Gravestriders" or "Morguedancers" (or sometimes "Coffinsmokes"), or their own name for their kind, "The Spectral Cabal of the Fallen Oath" (or less formally as "Mythallar's Ghosts"), or among Vistani gypsies, "Exiles of the Graven Mists", or among erudite planars, "The Knight Riders of Castle von Hasselhoff" (aka "Banewatchers"). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Nov 2010 10:23:32 |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2010 : 19:41:56
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'm seriously not trying to fan the flames or hurl accusations here, Markus ... but how can you claim any authority to condemn books you haven't read? I can personally select a fair number of FR novels (and/or the events they depict) which I find disagreeable or even downright despicable, but only after reading them firsthand and judging them to be unsatisfactory. I'll admit that I sometimes carry my negative expectations or prejudices into the books - but in some cases (such as the Twilight trilogy) I've been very pleasantly surprised. I can say that, regardless of my personal loathing for some of the warped and twisted turns the path of the FR setting has sometimes veered into, I've found the overall technical quality of the writing itself has dramatically improved over the years. I don't personally see any particular requirement for every page of every novel to be painstakingly consistent with the established game rules and setting.
(If you feel compelled to argue against what I've said then it's probably best we continue this sidescroll in PM. Again, I'm not trying to provoke or challenge you, and I think I understand exactly what you're saying and how you feel, just not why you appear to feel so strongly offended about it.)
I agree. Sort of. I don't condemn books I haven't read; but I doggedly avoid books that highlight to a horrifying degree the characters that I do (and most probably forever will) loathe. On some very rare occasions, exceptions happen. That's why I believe that what we think are uninteresting novels may at times have their 'saving grace,' no matter how small, which may not completely erase our strong dislike for the books, but in a way may make us feel that reading them is not a complete waste of time.
Which, from what I've gathered so far, is any book that dares deal with anything other then epic wizards that can destroy entire universes, going against epic wizards that can destroy time and space. Each must be in an army of super balor demons, and nothing average, like an Orc.
I hit the nail? You even stated before you refuse to read any book that doesn't have a wizard type as main character, and never a fighter main character. |
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
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