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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 06:08:45
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We already have a 'Most Horrible RSE' thread. Why not the exact opposite?!
For me, the RSE that made sense and was really well done (it's something to be expected of PSK) is the Twilight War. Not too many realms were affected. But it did make quite a few significant changes. I've seen Shade make 'direct,' confrontational moves against its enemies before. This feels like a welcome change---as the Princes preferred to conquer Sembia via political machinations instead. It's also nice to feel a 'personal touch' of the story---that though the conflict was so huge (involving a goddess, a demigod, and a catastrophe that could have 'consumed' the entire world) it never lost its focus on its key players: Cale and his friends. This event, RSE, is like two sides of the same coin: the development of Cale as a shade character, and the furthering of Shade's plan to expand its empire.
How about you? Which among the RSEs made sense to you and you think was exceptionally executed?
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Mouse
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 13:01:57
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Hard to say honestly. They all felt like giant marketing ploys.
If you follow comic books, you'd see that about in that same period as those RSE's happened that suddenly there were lots of "Big Change Crossover Nothing Will Ever Be The Same!" events that honestly did rather little, and were quickly forgotten, which is sometimes how I felt about the RSE's in recent memory.
I don't know why, but it was happening a LOT in the early and mid-2000's with a variety of stuff.
In the end though, just like in comics, there was one LARGE event that actually DID change stuff, some of which some people liked, and others whom hated it because it kind of only existed to blow up continuity and characters so that writers or developers had to work less hard.
Much of these changes in comics have been almost immediately reversed, except for the ones people liked.
So far, the Spellplague, the Timeskip, and the Abeir-thing are the big ACTUAL changes...if they get switched back (unlikely I think) I wouldn't be particularly surprised at this point.
I was more annoyed at the Edition change then the change in the Realms, because once I saw the massive rules shift I figured "oh hell, they're gonna have to change EVERYTHING to explain the differences, and they won't try to be subtle about it will they?".
Just marketing stuff really, as the RPG industry at the time wasn't making much in the way of money and had declining sales (comics weren't either, notably). |
"Barbarians are more polite then civilized men, for civilized men know they may be rude to another without having their skulls cleaved open as a general thing."
-Conan |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 13:32:39
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| The Fall of Netheril. To me, it seemed like a logical conclusion of Netheril's evolution; it sowed a lot of seeds that continued into the current-day Realms (although I do deplore the use of the Netherese as the source of a number of other baddies, such as the Night Parade, which made for a fine bunch of villains in their own right, without a reference to the Netherese). |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 13:52:36
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| I'm not sure if this is considered an RSE but the retaking of Myth Drannor by the elves. For too long, I've felt that the elven races of Faerun were just mirror images of Tolkien Elves. Always leaving the other races behind for greener pastures. It's fine for Tolkien and all but lets have some diversity, huh?! Not only were the books retaking Myth Drannor (and the series altogether) interesting and a great read IMHO but further defined elven culture, and showed how interesting the race really is. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 19:13:18
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| Weeping War. At least it was done in style and with an army, not with a 'bang! magic or gods!' like other RSEs. Many heroic skirmishes and battles. Many heroes, some forgotten in time. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 22:53:10
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I agree 100% with Zireael and couldn't possibly have stated it better. Weeping War wins - and by a large margin.
Though I'll confess I did rather like the Twilight trilogy, actually my introduction to Cale and Shade. (Yeah I never start a trilogy until I can buy all three books at once, because I hate being caught in the trap of urgently waiting for the unfinished story to be told ... so I end up reading things a little out of order and long after the first wave has already washed away.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 10 Nov 2010 23:01:21 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 23:17:30
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Unfortunately, I find I have shied-away from many series in-which RSE's have taken place, and only get the lore second-hand, through the Internet or through source (which of course is no-longer updated with novel-material).
So since I have so little experience with the actual works wherein these RSEs take place, I find it very difficult to find ANY good in any of them. The few I have read I found lacking, so I don't know which is worse - little knowledge, or knowledge 'tainted' by the series in-question.
I suppose if an RSE were REALLY well-done I wouldn't mind it. In a weird way, I find I am actually leaning toward the Spellplague if I were pressed to make a choice. We know so very little about its details, I find myself less-able to hate it off-hand (except for that silly 'vision' we had of Cyric killing Mystra - that nearly ruins the whole thing for me).
And if it counts, the Fall of Athalantar. If you think about it, the events surrounding it's fall had MUCH larger and longer-reaching repercussions then most 5 RSEs combined. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Nov 2010 23:19:00 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 23:45:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The few I have read I found lacking, so I don't know which is worse - little knowledge, or knowledge 'tainted' by the series in-question.
Neither is worse, for both are equally bad. Having either, one will veer to the wrong path, most often than not.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And if it counts, the Fall of Athalantar. If you think about it, the events surrounding it's fall had MUCH larger and longer-reaching repercussions then most 5 RSEs combined.
I don't consider it an RSE. That it was destroyed by an orc horde is bad enough. What's with the use orc anyway? Can't someone from WotC stop using them again and again and find something more original, or at the very least mildly interesting?! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 23:57:29
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| Orcs have rights! They've been providing stalwart evil minionry and reliable horde services since the very, very first appearances in the original ancient OD&D pamplets and simply stood around grinding their tusks as they watched their jobs get taken by drow, gith, demons, devils, dracoliches, daemonfey ... they need fair representation, y'know. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 23:59:30
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Hmm, I guess I just don't like them. Plain and simple. I'd rather have the overly used demons any time. Besides, aren't they waycooler?! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 00:01:24
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Keep thinking that way and soon enough we'll have some kind of RSE to introduce powerful new orc/demon crossbreeds.  |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Nov 2010 00:02:04 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 00:12:06
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| That's not bad. If elves can breed with demons, I see no reason why orcs can't. And oh, have I mentioned the main reason I dislike orcs (though not as much as the stinky, haughty elves) is because almost all of them are so stupid?! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 00:24:57
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Hmm, fellow scribes, despite that this thread leans towards the 'positive' side of RSEs, sometimes we tend to give some rather 'brash' comments on other RSEs that are not to our taste. The thread 'Most Horri--- RSE' (despite my friendly reminder to downplay the ranting) was sealed. I sort of know/suspect at least one who PM'd Sage to have it locked, as he's kinda sensitive to such things; and some of you might have noticed it, too. Of course, I'm not gonna name names. I'm not blaming him - doing so sounds way below me; it's too petty - because he's got A point for doing what he did.
So I hope we'll be 'gentler' here. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 11 Nov 2010 01:20:07 |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 00:48:24
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| Markustay, what RSE series *have* you read? |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 01:16:07
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| I don't know if it's because of how much I enjoy the author's work or if the idea itself won me over, but the Shadowstorm and Shade's takeover of Sembia in the Twilight War trilogy is my favorite RSE. Despite the fact that I'm not a huge fan of Shar as a deity, or the Shades all that much(I preferred Halruaa when it came to descendants of Netheril) I really got into the series and had a much greater respect for the Shades by the end of it. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 01:22:58
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quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
I don't know if it's because of how much I enjoy the author's work or if the idea itself won me over, but the Shadowstorm and Shade's takeover of Sembia in the Twilight War trilogy is my favorite RSE. Despite the fact that I'm not a huge fan of Shar as a deity, or the Shades all that much(I preferred Halruaa when it came to descendants of Netheril) I really got into the series and had a much greater respect for the Shades by the end of it.
'Tis precisely one of the reasons I encourage those who hate or are apathetic towards Shade to read that trilogy. If not to begin to like them, at the very least begin to understand them. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 01:35:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen
Markustay, what RSE series *have* you read?
The good ones.
Actually, the only one that jumps to mind was the ToT, which I didn't mind at all at the time. I was new to FR and had only been DMing it for a short time, so I came in right after the Avatar Crisis, so it didn't really phase me.
I would love to re-read those novels now, just to see if they are really as bad as everyone makes them out, but I stupidly lent them out and never got them back.
I read WotSQ, but my opinions of that probably got the other thread locked. It had nothing to do with the writing itself, BTW - it just should have been written by a single author... or at the very least, authors who could agree with each-other about the character's personalities.
Drow are chaotic, but I felt like I was reading about a completely different group from book to book - it was a total disconnect for me.
I read that Underwater one - can't remember the name. It was okay, but I didn't care for the ending (although I can't even recall any details). It also had absolutely no long-term affects on the setting (which is probably why I didn't mind it, I guess).
I read the first Everis Cale trilogy. The plot was kinda... ummm... over-the-top, but the fantastic writing and character development allowed me to over look that flaw (and besides, over-the-top is a trope of fantasy, and FR especially).
The Empires trilogy, but that falls kinda flat in the RSE-department. Great books in that they were lore-packed, but it ended a bit anti-climactic (and the supposed long-term repercussions seem to just disappear in the setting).
I can't think of any more ATM, but I'm sure there were others. I think there was a turning-point somewhere were I just started avoiding RSE series. It may have been when I became a regular over at the WotC site - VERY negative opinions over there concerning RSE's and novels, and it probably rubbed-off.
Now you make me have to turn my evil scrutiny inward...
Did I enjoy the setting more before I was a fan? 
That's something I must ponder, but it seems to be related to one of those 'deep, philosophical questions' mankind is plagued with. Is it possible to "like something to death"?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Nov 2010 01:40:24 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 02:53:34
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I'm seriously not trying to fan the flames or hurl accusations here, Markus ... but how can you claim any authority to condemn books you haven't read? I can personally select a fair number of FR novels (and/or the events they depict) which I find disagreeable or even downright despicable, but only after reading them firsthand and judging them to be unsatisfactory. I'll admit that I sometimes carry my negative expectations or prejudices into the books - but in some cases (such as the Twilight trilogy) I've been very pleasantly surprised. I can say that, regardless of my personal loathing for some of the warped and twisted turns the path of the FR setting has sometimes veered into, I've found the overall technical quality of the writing itself has dramatically improved over the years. I don't personally see any particular requirement for every page of every novel to be painstakingly consistent with the established game rules and setting.
(If you feel compelled to argue against what I've said then it's probably best we continue this sidescroll in PM. Again, I'm not trying to provoke or challenge you, and I think I understand exactly what you're saying and how you feel, just not why you appear to feel so strongly offended about it.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Nov 2010 04:34:47 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 05:07:50
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| If I had to pick one that I actually LIKED, it would be either the TOT or the Rage. Both were great series, and the events, while not changing the Realms themselves significantly, had important impacts none-the-less. The ToT changed the way gods dealt with their faithful, while the Rage had a lasting impact on the wyrms of Faerun, and involved several important figures on both sides of the side-conflict. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 05:47:35
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| I also liked the retaking of Myth Drannor (I am such an elf fangirl). I keep thinking about picking up the Dracorage books, but so far it hasn't gotten out of concept phase. Strangely enough, I haven't actually read all that many of the RSE books. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 11:16:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'm seriously not trying to fan the flames or hurl accusations here, Markus ... but how can you claim any authority to condemn books you haven't read? I can personally select a fair number of FR novels (and/or the events they depict) which I find disagreeable or even downright despicable, but only after reading them firsthand and judging them to be unsatisfactory. I'll admit that I sometimes carry my negative expectations or prejudices into the books - but in some cases (such as the Twilight trilogy) I've been very pleasantly surprised. I can say that, regardless of my personal loathing for some of the warped and twisted turns the path of the FR setting has sometimes veered into, I've found the overall technical quality of the writing itself has dramatically improved over the years. I don't personally see any particular requirement for every page of every novel to be painstakingly consistent with the established game rules and setting.
(If you feel compelled to argue against what I've said then it's probably best we continue this sidescroll in PM. Again, I'm not trying to provoke or challenge you, and I think I understand exactly what you're saying and how you feel, just not why you appear to feel so strongly offended about it.)
I agree. Sort of. I don't condemn books I haven't read; but I doggedly avoid books that highlight to a horrifying degree the characters that I do (and most probably forever will) loathe. On some very rare occasions, exceptions happen. That's why I believe that what we think are uninteresting novels may at times have their 'saving grace,' no matter how small, which may not completely erase our strong dislike for the books, but in a way may make us feel that reading them is not a complete waste of time. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 11:45:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
I also liked the retaking of Myth Drannor (I am such an elf fangirl). I keep thinking about picking up the Dracorage books, but so far it hasn't gotten out of concept phase. Strangely enough, I haven't actually read all that many of the RSE books.
My one quibble about the Crusade was that in the epilogue, we see that five years later, Myth Drannor is once more a living city. In my opinion, even with a couple thousand elves, it still should have taken longer than that to retake/rebuild the entire city. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 11:56:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
I also liked the retaking of Myth Drannor (I am such an elf fangirl). I keep thinking about picking up the Dracorage books, but so far it hasn't gotten out of concept phase. Strangely enough, I haven't actually read all that many of the RSE books.
My one quibble about the Crusade was that in the epilogue, we see that five years later, Myth Drannor is once more a living city. In my opinion, even with a couple thousand elves, it still should have taken longer than that to retake/rebuild the entire city.
Maybe guys from WotC learned of Feist's Star Elves, the taredhel, who could rebuild their city from scratch just within a few weeks. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 12:26:53
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Or perhaps the guys at WotC learned about the Dungeons and Dragons "Players Handbook", a tome which contains spells that would allow a handful of casters to rebuild a city in a matter of months, easily.
Do you think that the guys at WotC are familiar with "The Players Handbook"? I mean, it seems like a stretch, but I bet they probably are... Wooly, are you familiar with "The Player's Handbook"? It's been published with each edition of the game. Until the 3.5ed, it contained spells that would allow a handful of wizards to easily rebuild a city in a matter of months. |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 12:39:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And if it counts, the Fall of Athalantar. If you think about it, the events surrounding it's fall had MUCH larger and longer-reaching repercussions then most 5 RSEs combined.
I am laughing out loud at the quote above! You, Ed Greenwood, and Saer Aumar *vastly* over-estimate Elminster's influence! I would put forth that this is the cornerstone of Elminster's insanity! He *actually* believes that he is 'saving' the Realms, when in fact he is merely muddling up his and others lives! Oh, my! Not to mention his ludicrous diatribes! If the "Fall of Athalantar" is a RSE, then so is... Uhm, everything?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 12:51:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen
Or perhaps the guys at WotC learned about the Dungeons and Dragons "Players Handbook", a tome which contains spells that would allow a handful of casters to rebuild a city in a matter of months, easily.
Do you think that the guys at WotC are familiar with "The Players Handbook"? I mean, it seems like a stretch, but I bet they probably are... Wooly, are you familiar with "The Player's Handbook"? It's been published with each edition of the game. Until the 3.5ed, it contained spells that would allow a handful of wizards to easily rebuild a city in a matter of months.
Yeah. I'm also familiar with logic and prior lore. A ruined city, full of twisted magic and various nastybads -- some of which were magically powerful, themselves -- is not going to be fixed with just a wave of the hand. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 13:11:54
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I am laughing out loud, again! Hyperbole aside, as neither I nor anyone else has suggested that a single 'hand-wave' rebuilt Myth Drannor.
This is what I will do. I will get out the Myth Drannor box, and determine the needed resources to eliminate the threats you describe! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 13:28:46
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I think i'm....gonna have to agree with Wooly on the retaking of Myth Drannor.
If I remember the Ruins of Myth Drannor novel AND video game in addition to all the lore which states going into said ruins is pretty much a death trap...It's gonna take longer to put Myth Drannor to it's rightful place. 5 years just isn't enough time to completly wipe out the Drow, demon, and undead threats (those that we know of anyways) from the city and surrounding areas.
To actually "rebuild" the city, as in restore old buildings and create new ones....yea 5 years with the aid of magic isn't outside the realm of possibility. To make the area as safe as it once was...definitly more than 5 years. And you also can't forget the incursions of Netheril and Shadovar machinations to boot. |
Edited by - Diffan on 11 Nov 2010 13:29:50 |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 13:34:41
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| If you mean Shade, as opposed to Netheril and the Shadovar, we can indeed count them out. Shade lost a significant portion of their military during The Return and Siege of Evereska. The major demonic threat was dealt with directly during The Crusade. The Phaerimm nests were rooted up during The Return, as well. Myth Drannor's mythal was repaired/re-raised during the events of The Crusade, so we can eliminate Wild Magic as a threat, as well. |
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The Most Sensible and Well-done RSE
