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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 09:11:22
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| Well I can't believe that a mighty wizard as him just perished in the ocean. So maybe he just used this incident to disapear from sight and continue undercover. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 14:15:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thanks George - high praise coming from you. 
I had to re-write parts of it again - I had so tightly woven Ka'Narlist into everything I still had little bits of him stuck in there.
It must have been his legacy. That and the fact his daughter Narlista briefly (a century or two - brief by Elven standards) poised as her father 'returned'. Once Lolth had arisen to godhood again, Narlista was able to reveal herself for what she truly was - the first Chosen of Lolth (and why she adopted the same prefix 'Ka' as her father - it means 'Most Holy' in some ancient Fey dialect).
That, of course, is my fix for any anachronisms still lurking about, and is 100% Homebrew. 
Reported sighting of Ka'Narlist continued for over a thousand years after his death. To the Dark Elves, he was both a savior, and 'the boogeyman'.
W00t, MT! Gimme something more about this daughter of Ka'Narlist (I'm working on him now, so I might get interested in this girl too!) |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 20:52:25
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More Homebrew:
He had many children, although he had no wives - only slave-concubines, from various Elven racial groups and even a few non-Elves (including one succubus). Ka'Narlista was one of the few that survived their rather violent childhood; much backstabbing and foul-play, as it is with modern Drow. One must wonder if this is where these 'traditions' began.
Her mother was a full-blooded Dark Elf of Ilythiir stock. She was very ambitious and managed to kill many of her siblings herself, before her father put a stop to it. As she grew older, she grew mighty in Magic, to the point where her father considered her a serious threat. However, fortune shined upon the dark child, for around the time Ka'Narlist was considering destroying his most promising offspring he was approached by none other then Lolth, who asked him to spare the child and raise her in Lolth's faith.
And so it was - Ka'narlist became the newest paramour of the voracious Demon Queen, and his daughter became the first of many Dark-Elven priestesses in the service of Lolth. In time, Ka'Narlist gave-up his faith in Ghaunadar and became her first (and only) High-Priest. Father and daughter never loved each other they way normal families do, but they learned a grudging respect for each other's power, and often worked-together to bring down other Realms through trickery and subterfuge.
Together they helped Lolth to re-ascend to godhood, using the eager and vile priestesses to subjugate the populace and punish those with the temerity to worship other gods. Many Dark Elves fled the wrath of Lolth's dark sisterhood, and the ire of Ka'Narlist and his malevolent progeny. Those that stayed were either wholly corrupted, or too cowed to resist.
They were now ready to move forward with the next phase of their plans - to bring the other Elven Realms to their knees, and punish the Seldarine's mortal worshipers. If not for the unexpected casting of the Sundering Ritual by the Gold Elves of the north, Ka'Narlist may have seen his dream of ruling Faerun come to fruition. As his crushed form began to sink beneath the waves with the ruins of his once-great city, he held out a single hand to his daughter, who floated in the air above the carnage... but she merely laughed as her father's head disappeared beneath the waves.
The Sundering greatly changed the world, and left many races extinct, or so badly crippled that they would take countless millenia to climb back out of savagery (humans included). The Elves, though least-affected by the magic, were also put into complete disarray, as new borders needed to be founded as the lay of the land itself changed. Narlista realized all-out warfare would no longer be as affective amidst the turmoil, as a campaign of spying and sabotage would be. So she took her father's form, and claimed herself "Ka'Narlist Returned", and continued to lead the Dark Elves and bide her time. After several centuries she cast-aside the pretense and revealed herself as the first Chosen of Lolth. By this time males had been disenfranchised from all matters clerical, and as high-priestess of the official state religion her power was absolute.
During her time poising as her father, and well-into the next few centuries, she continued his plans of planting many Ilythiir among other groups of Elves, including Eladrin, Sylvan, and even ex-patriate dark Elves. Only the reclusive Lythari and near-mythical Avariel resisted any efforts of infiltration. As for Ka'narlist himself, everyone assumes he perished when he sank with his city, even the goddess Lolth, but she has often wondered at why his spirit never appeared within her divine realm.
As for his daughter, she became known as "ka'Narlista" (most-holy Narlista), and lead the dark elves in their campaign against their neighbors. History does not tell us if she survived long-enough to have marched north to confront the Aryvandaar Elves, or even if she was still alive when the curse befell the Drow - her own demise is uncertain and remains unrecorded. She seems to have 'gone missing' right around the time Lolth went from a lesser to an Intermediate deity, and their is some speculation that Ka'Narlista may have been consumed in some dark rite of Lolth's (a fate, many believe, she richly deserved).
____________________________________________________________________
I think that covers all the bases - I even speculated on how Lolth's clergy evolved from a more traditional (both sexes) one into the matriarchal model the use today (Narlista was a man-hater).
At some point I will flesh this out, attach a few maps, maybe a piece of artwork (if I can find someone both good and FREE LOL), and call it a Netbook. I'll probably create a few dark-elven cities and perhaps few more tribes. The breakdown would be as follows:
Eller = Clan (extended family, later became qu'eller, which means 'titled house'}
Agach = Tribe
Ar'Agach = Great Tribe
Ergo, the Ilythiir would be a Ar'Agach, or 'great tribe', composed of many smaller tribes.
I'll need to do a dark-Elven dictionary, which would be known as 'High Drow' (DotU2e) today, which of course is remarkably similar to Seldruin (the language of Elven High magic) - both modern Elvish and Drow are derived from a common fey tongue (32,000 years ago!), so the older ('sacred') forms would still be similar, but the modern spoken versions would be as different as two human tongues (although structurally they would be built the same). Fortunately, I have already worked-out quite a bit of linguistics for the fey tongue (note pieces of it appear in many modern languages; for instance, 'Ka' means 'Holy' in many eastern tongues, and 'Kha' means 'blessed').
I should just combine this project with my Tablets of Fate piece I started with the Elven netbook awhile back. One leads right into the other. That bit has to do with the retreat of the Sidhe (Fey) from Toril, and the later ascension of the Seldarine (which was S'eladrin'eller - Royal Eladrin House).
And of course, my mythology piece (War of Light & Darkness) leads right into that. I made it so each fills-in the missing pieces in the others. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2010 21:06:00 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 14:57:55
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| Wooow, MT, I can't wait for this netbook! |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 07:02:00
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| While waiting for MT to compile his netbook, I'd love to see some input from other scribes too. Maybe there's a snippet of canon we missed... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 07:21:29
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Well, If we run with Markustay's theory that the Miyeritari dark elven clans originally came from Ilythiir and that the Descent was originally keyed to any clan that had it's roots in Ilythiir, I would suppose that the Suyoll (the rite of restoration) was developed to solve the sudden problem that those remaining Miyeritari dark elves had found set upon them through no fault of their own (again).
I would posit that there could not have been many surviving dark elves who identified themselves as Miyeritari for two reasons. First since they had been some of the ringleaders in the continuing Miyeritar uprisings that Aryvandaar kept having to squash I would guess that Aryvandaar came down very hard on obvious targets (ie elves who looked like a dark elf, a wood elf or a mix of the two). Second, The Dark Disaster killed a lot of elves and essentially obliterated the region known as Miyeritar. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that most Miyeritari dark elves got caught in it.
Between these two messes, It might have been deemed more expedient to "temporarily inconvenience" a very small number of elves and reverse the Descent's effects on a case by case basis, in order to stop the waking nightmare that Ilythiir had become as quickly as possible.
It's just a thought. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 07:39:02
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| Hmm, that's not a bad suggestion, but I have another one. In Snowblood's pdf on Miyeritar, it mentioned that there were two mass migrations to some distant unknown location by the Miyeritari dark elves even before the Dark Disaster and the Descent. Those might not have been affected by the Descent, so they could conceivably come back at some later time, as normal dark elves. And since Miyeritar seems to have had Eilistraee as a patron, I'd bet that quite a few survived through her aid/protection/whatever. Obviously there were several Houses that survived, from what we know from the LP books. How many is unknown, but given the fact that they hid at least ninty Lore Gems, I'd say that a fair number of houses from there still exist- or did after the Disaster. How many of them were destroyed in the time since then is anyone's guess. But if his lore on them foreseeing something bad coming and doing a cut-and-run is accurate, then there might be a lot more of them left than anyone guesses. Then there are the rumors of a small group hidden away in some mountain area that DIDN'T get transformed. That's an interesting prospect, of itself. Mayhap they were the ones spared for whatever reason? (I'm betting it's because of Corellon and/or Eilistraee granting special dispensation...) And a side-note: She IS sometimes seen as having "sight" of the future (the reason she asked to be exiled, remember, she foresaw that the drow would need her) so it's possible that she warned the Miyeritari in time to save some of them from the Disaster. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 07:54:37
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Well... I don't consider LP canon since the application of paltry things such as logic doesn't seem to resonate with it. Something about inbreeding taking less than 10 generations and the time span in question being over 50 generations.
Most of what you have could easily work alongside what I guessed, although I would have to note that just because the kiira had been carted off, it doesn't mean that the elves made it out or that they were numerous if they had done so. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 08:12:59
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| No, but the fact that they hid them at all, and then had two mass migrations away from Faerun altogether says that they KNEW something was up and got out while they could. At least some of them anyway. Obviously they intended to come back at some point. So why SHOULDN'T a bunch of them have survived? It makes sense. I really didn't see the inbreeding thing you mentioned in those books. But my guess is that a lot of the drow who colonized Ched Nesad and Sshamath originally must have been Miyeritar descent- otherwise, how would there be any left after that long? And since the ones from Ched Nasad had some Mieritar blood, it's a good bet there were still some in Menzo too, since the first Nasad houses were from there. Maybe they were the last few left, and that might be WHY they left Menzo. But that's just a guess. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 11:27:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
No, but the fact that they hid them at all, and then had two mass migrations away from Faerun altogether says that they KNEW something was up and got out while they could. At least some of them anyway. Obviously they intended to come back at some point. So why SHOULDN'T a bunch of them have survived? It makes sense. I really didn't see the inbreeding thing you mentioned in those books. But my guess is that a lot of the drow who colonized Ched Nesad and Sshamath originally must have been Miyeritar descent- otherwise, how would there be any left after that long? And since the ones from Ched Nasad had some Mieritar blood, it's a good bet there were still some in Menzo too, since the first Nasad houses were from there. Maybe they were the last few left, and that might be WHY they left Menzo. But that's just a guess.
I find this very probable, too. In addition, just look through Snowblood's pdf and you'll find some familiar names  |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 00:58:03
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First, you have to take into account the events in Blackstaff, wherein a Miyeritaran city was restored. That may have been what Snowblood was alluding to - it appears that at least 'some' Miyeritar dark elves chose to become sharn, rather then be transformed into Drow (although, to be honest, I think becoming Sharn is SO much worse).
In my Elven Netbook (Elves of Faerûn) article about the Dark Elves, I mentioned several clans of Dark (Sylvan) Elves that had gone to 'other worlds' rather then Toril. I don't know if Snowblood was referencing that; it seems doubtful, since that event (the Tana’Quesspora - Elven Scattering) prompted the arrival of Sylvan elves on Toril, and would have happened long-before the racial aggression between the Dark (Ilythiir) Elves and other Sylvan (Green) Elven groups arose.
I just had to look back at what I wrote: I would probably tweak a few things with it now (especially considering the new 4e lore that has to be taken into consideration). The one thing I was very proud of is the vagueness in which I left the racial lines. Some 'Great Clans', like the Ilythiir, were composed entirely of one particular 'racial stock'*, while other clans were a mixed group of smaller tribes of various sub-races*. This allows us to have non-Ilythiir dark-elven tribes mixed among the other great tribes, and could account for dark elves (who were not affected by the Descent Curse) that migrated to other worlds.
At least one group of dark elves wound-up in the Shadowfel, and then eventually in Ravenloft. That group does not appear to have been changed by the curse. They may not have been of Ilythiir blood, or they may have been protected by the Umbral energies of the Plane of Shadows, or they may have even been shielded by Ravenloft itself (which acts like a one-way door in regards to nearly everything, including things divine and magical). I haven't read the lore regarding that group in awhile, but I don't think their presence in RL would allow for their non-Drowness because of the time-frame involved.
Regardless, the curse had to have something 'concrete' to latch onto; that's how magic works. In those early times the Dark Elves WERE Green elves, so a spell that only targeted 'dark elves' does not seem logical. Also, it could not have had to do with 'mind-set', for then some of the more savage Grugach and evil Aryvandaar would have been cursed as well. This is why feel it MUST have something to do with the bloodline. When we take that into account, then it follows that the Miyeritar - who were also apparently curse - were originally of that same blood.
AFAWK, all dark-elves on Toril were cursed... but that was around 1400 years ago. It stands to reason that some non-Ilythiir dark elves made it to Toril, and hid their nature from other Elves. It is entirely possible that Maztica's Poscadar Elves are a remnant of some early dark elves that had migrated to the western shore of the proto-continent, before the sundering trapped them on the other side of the ocean (and it would make sense that some ilythiir did as well). In fact, ANY fairly 'savage' tribe of dusky-hued elves (and their are many in-canon) could be these 'survivors'. They would just be lumped-into the Grugach at this point - the term 'dark elf' has become synonymous with Drow, and that appellation would no longer apply to any other off-shoots of the people who were original called 'dark elves'.
I also theorize that the High-Magic ritual used to curse the Dhaerow was essentially the same as the one used on Krynn. What they did was take that piece of magic and multiply it exponentially, in order to affect "all traitors, everywhere". The problem came-in because it worked all too well, and something else seems to have tainted the end result (either Lolth... or something else..) For whatever reason, the life-giving powers of the sun became anethema to them.
*Please note that trying to accurately categorize each sub-group would be like trying to lump together various native American or Australian Aborigine tribes into 'over-groups'. It is both highly subjective and discourteous - each small tribe considered itself 'distinct', and some had traits associated with different Sub-races; the Grugach, for example. They looked and dressed more like other sylvan (Green) Elven groups, yet acted very much like the more aggressive/competitive Dark Elves, and used similar weapons and fighting-styles. Ergo, the lines between what we now refer to as 'Elven sub-races' were not so firmly drawn. Elves were regarded as individuals, and not judged by the tribe they hailed from. Those artificial lines only became apparent during the Crown Wars, which served to isolate and emphasize certain attitudes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Nov 2010 01:06:26 |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 04:41:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Regardless, the curse had to have something 'concrete' to latch onto; that's how magic works. In those early times the Dark Elves WERE Green elves, so a spell that only targeted 'dark elves' does not seem logical. Also, it could not have had to do with 'mind-set', for then some of the more savage Grugach and evil Aryvandaar would have been cursed as well. This is why feel it MUST have something to do with the bloodline. When we take that into account, then it follows that the Miyeritar - who were also apparently curse - were originally of that same blood.
I agree with the "Great Clanlines" theory. It does make sense from that perspective. Considering how many mages and priests it took to set the spell in the first place I wonder if how they set it up to affect the next generation of ssri'tel'quessir. I'd speculate that the curse renews itself according to a wider set of parameters than just bloodline, like getting pledged to Lolth or torturing for fun or whatever. Since baby drow seem to get pledged to Lolth at a very young age, the contingent case of "curse goes on" almost always gets tripped just through drow cultural norms.
I just like the idea of a built in alternative "restoration" method, but I also abhor the idea that someone gets automatically screwed for no better reason than because they were born. I find it very difficult to believe that "good" deities and clerics wouldn't have put an exception clause in somewhere, because someone had to have asked the question "What about the children?" during that century long discussion leading up to the Descent.
Of course at this point I'm probably going quite against canon, but I'm not actually all that upset about it anymore. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 07:32:05
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Haven't read Blackstaff yet- sadly, I'm a bit behind on FR books due to lack of funds and ability to acquire said books. But in regards to the Miyeritar dark elves that "migrated" and were not affected, I was not referring to the sharn, but to an earlier gropu having left to some unknown land across the western sea, Obviously not Evermeet, but there has always been speculation of another continent on the other side of Toril, and they seem to have sailed there, or perhaps they did go to other worlds. In any case, his lore did make it seem that they knew what was coming- hence why they left.
The second point is- in all the lore (up to 4th ed) I've seen, the dark elves were specifically stated as separate racial stock from the green/sylven elves. Thus the separate name for them of Ssri'Tel'Quessir, as opposed to "Taur'Tel'Quessir. Now they are just Mori'Tel'Quessir. This would mean there was more than just a cultural difference between the two groups- meaning that they were not just darker-skinned green elves.
Third point- the "dark" elves on Krynn have NOTHING at all to do with FR dark elves. They are "dark" in name only. It is not a curse, but a ritual trial where-in the elf in question is locked in a room within a magical chain laid on the floor in a circle. A mirror showing the future of his life if he/she continues the present path, or the future if he/she changes his ways stands in front of them. They stand in that circle for an entire night watching the mirror's visions (after a ritual bath of purification), and in the morning the room is unlocked- to find either the elf still standing there untouched, or bound tightly in the chain if guilty. They do not change in any way, but are simply banished and their names erased from elven history and memory if discovered bound. The Krynn "dark" elves are not any different than any other elf, either in appearance, or abilities. They are simply exiles based on some perceived "crime"- which could be as simple as choosing to marry into the wrong House caste! (In Dalamar's case, it was learning magic after he was forbidden to do so because of not belonging to the proper House caste to study it.)
I'm sort of with you on this restoration tack, LF. I never understood why the Seldarine would not have made provisions for the innocent members of the race, especially the children. By any decent logic, it SHOULD have only affected the ones responsible, not just be a curse across the board. I actually tried to address that issue when I was making my homebrew world. It just would not make sense to unilaterally condemn an entire sub-race just for the crimes of a certain number of them. You'd think gods could work around that, or at least think of it, and not be THAT petty.... Perhaps the ones who left were warned of the Descent? It might even be that they were the fortunate few who were given the special immunity! (ie, those who chose to sail away before all the wars started and migrated to greener pastures, leaving behind their gems might have been purposely spared the curse. And perhaps they were the ONLY ones who escaped its effects.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 22:36:56
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I've long held the belief that the High Magic used to curse the dark elves did not have universal application and that indeed, there were individuals and families of "goodness" that were spared the transformation into drow. Why wasn't this explicitly stated? Well, I think it was because it occurred more than 13 millenia previously and any surviving "good" dark elves would have been absorbed into ongoing elven racial groupings or died out with the passage of the years.
For the purposes of a campaign set in the 1300s DR or even an "Arcane Age" campaign set in 650 DR (as was the case with 'Cormanthyr' where this lore first came to light), this factoid was largely superfluous and knowing the amount of information Steven Schend crammed into his products, he would have had no wordcount for explanations for purely historical reasons. It was, after all, a campaign guide.
That said, it's trite to note that the greatest concentration of dark elves pre-Descent was in Ilythiir and the likelihood of there being any significant numbers of their population to avoid the transformation would be nil in my view. I used one of my prose pieces in GHotR to provide an explanation as to how "good" Miyeritari elves could have been drawn into situations where they too were transformed when that High Magic was cast.
As THO always notes, we DO think about these things. Always. It's just that we rarely get an opportunity to describe and explain in detail and in print.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 08:01:20
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Thank you so much, George!
Any more tidbits? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 00:23:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Third point- the "dark" elves on Krynn have NOTHING at all to do with FR dark elves. They are "dark" in name only.
What I should have said is that both rituals are based upon the same bit of Elven magic (I didn't mean they were one and the same). I know almost nothing about Krynn, but I do know there was a ritual. That fact alone tells me that the ritual itself causes some sort of subtle change within the individual (so others can identify them?) - if is didn't, it would serve no purpose. Therefore my point was that Elves (and they ALL come from a common source, way back in time, regardless of weather you like 4e lore or not) had some sort of magic that 'branded' an outcast.
The difference between the two rituals was like the difference between splitting an atom in a controlled (cyclotron) environment, and building an Atom Bomb. However, at their core, both processes were designed to accomplish the same end by the same racial group.
And I always felt the original Dark Elves were just a darker variant of the Sylvan Elves. I find the error lies in the fact that WotC choose to go with 'Green' rather then 'Sylvan' (which creates all sorts of grammatical problems). Its easier to just think of Green and Dark elves as two 'shades' of Sylvan Elf.
I think the real problem the Eladrin Elves had with the Dark Elves is that they were far more like themselves then other Sylvan groups. They were covetous, power-hungry, and felt they had a racial superiority to everyone around them. The Aryvaandar did not like looking into that 'dark mirror'. They liked the 'Folksy' Wood Elves to know their place (and for a VERY good example of this, we can turn once again to Krynn - that social situation sounds to me a LOT like what Faerun was like pre-Crown Wars).
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I've long held the belief that the High Magic used to curse the dark elves did not have universal application and that indeed, there were individuals and families of "goodness" that were spared the transformation into drow. Why wasn't this explicitly stated? Well, I think it was because it occurred more than 13 millenia previously and any surviving "good" dark elves would have been absorbed into ongoing elven racial groupings or died out with the passage of the years.
Precisely what I had been thinking myself. Any non-Ilythiir blooded dark Elves would have been absorbed into the other Elven groups, both due to the march of time, and because it would have been rather awkward after the Descent of the Drow to admit to being a 'Dark Elf'.
There could have been any number of non-Ilythiir clans around, but they have been forgotten, simply because historically speaking, they did not matter. There also would have been a mixture of Dark Elven tribal blood in Miyeritar (obviously, since they were of the 'green ' & 'Dark' varieties), but with the advent of the Dark Disaster, how is anyone to know what the percentages would have been had their been enough Miyeritaran Dark Elves left in order to take a reckoning? There simply is no way to know.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
That said, it's trite to note that the greatest concentration of dark elves pre-Descent was in Ilythiir and the likelihood of there being any significant numbers of their population to avoid the transformation would be nil in my view. I used one of my prose pieces in GHotR to provide an explanation as to how "good" Miyeritari elves could have been drawn into situations where they too were transformed when that High Magic was cast.
Once again, on the same page. History would have only noted the shear number of Dark Elves that were transformed, most of whom were probably in the army marching north, and nearly all of which probably deserved the curse by that point.
I also added that bit about 'Ilythiir spies' in the piece I wrote above to allow for a certain number of 'deserving' individuals. That may have been an assumption, but it is an obvious one to make: No powerful, civilized state would exist without spying on other powerful states around them - that's just how it works (and is not evil of itself, else every nation of Earth would be 'evil'). We also have canonical evidence that the Ilythiir behaved in just such a manner (The War of Three Leaves).
Ergo, there were probably plenty of Ilythiir in Miyeritar, however you want to look at it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2010 00:32:44 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 00:16:03
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I have a somewhat divergent take on what it means to be a dark elf. I think it's much more interesting to think of this as a religious struggle, rather than a racial conflict.
To my way of thinking 'dark elf' was a derogatory term used by faithful of the Corellon to describe all non-believers. As children of the feywild, most elves in this distant time still worshiped archfey and primary spirits, not gods. Zealot faithful of the Seldarine wished to impose their religious devotion upon these "heathens" --mostly the green elves of Miyeritar and Ilythiir. Largely their efforts in Miyeritar were successful, with many green elves converting to the faiths of Rillifane, Solonor, and others. But other tibes, particularly the Ilythiiri, were staunch in their rejection of the gods. Then in a fateful turn of events, the coronal of Aryvandar (goaded on by the fallen angel Malkizid) sought to forcibly impose his faith upon the heretics of Miyeritar. The green elves resisted and Aryvandaar invaded--thus beginning the Crown Wars.
Under this point of view, any Ilythiiri who converted to the faith of the Seldarine before the Descent would have been spared from the ritual which transformed dark elves into drow. Additionally (and this is the darkest and most guarded secret of all), even Corellon's most favored children--the eladrin--were also transformed into drow if their hearts had turned away from the Seldarine.
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 01:22:15
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| Interesting, BRJ. I used a similar take in my homebrew campaign world, where the drow were created from those elves, of whatever race, who had turned away from their kin and the elven gods. Some of the history is based (loosely) on FR lore, but up to my version of the Crown Wars, there were no "dark" elves at all. They simply became drow as a curse to distinguish them from those who had remained faithful to the Seldarine and the elven nations they lived in. Thus I had the drow actually be formerly members of the three main elven races, and all future generations of their families were thus drow as well. However, this leaves it open to the possibility of "erasing" the curse and having it reversed- provided the drow proves worthy of the gift of returning to his clan's former racial origin. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 19 Nov 2010 01:31:44 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 07:10:24
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I like it, BRJ. Neat, simple and explains what the High Magic cast "latched onto" when it did its work.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 19:23:05
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Except for the glaring flaw that plenty of Elves that were NOT cursed did NOT worship the Seldarine, LONG after the descent curse was applied. The curse had to have something PHYSICAL to latch onto - 'emotional states' and 'faith' are too insubstantial and subjective. Magic does not 'think'; it follows the letter of the spell/ritual, NOT it's intent (the same way a Djen or a fiend grants requests).
And Corellon is sounding more and more like Bane... I like it! 
Maybe in 5e we'll find out Corellon IS core-Bane!
Hmmm... Corbane..... I have to do something with that....
Anyhow, Brian's concept could have been the intent of the ritual, which went astray, and that could be why it affected only those of Ilythiir blood. If it (the magic) wasn't given very specific parameters to follow, it would have latched-onto whatever was in most of the casting-mages' minds - that the Ilythiir were the target of the spell.
So just like a fiend or Djen granting 'wishes', the ritual did not follow the 'spirit' (intent) of the High Mages' desires, but rather stayed within the parameters (specific wordage) and twisted it in a way no-one foresaw. After all, some of those High Mages themselves may have entertained 'darker gods' in their business-dealings.
I still think either Shar or Lolth (or perhaps Shar at lolth's bidding) managed to 'taint' the magic somehow. We know that Lolth managed to do her 'own thing' with the Drow (Lolth's Blessing, which includes Darkvision/Infravision, and whatever else LP says it affected), so it stands to reason that their was but one ritual, that both cursed the Dhaerow (traitors), and at the same time gave them certain abilities that enabled to live in a lightless environment.
I do not believe turning the Dhaerow into 'Drow' was the intent - that was just the unexpected result.
IMHO, off course. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Nov 2010 22:04:30 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 20:37:27
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| Banellon?? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 22:22:59
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That would - the most notable exception were the Elves that worshiped the Yuir Totems (mostly Sylvan/green elves), but I've come across others that worshiped 'human' powers (amongst others). Of course, we know of at least one human power that has an Elven alias (or vice-verse) - Khalreshaar - so it could just be that all of those deities are just aliases for gods that are part of the Seldarine (who may not all be 'Elven' powers themselves).
And looking at that name, one can almost assume that 'shaar' means something pertaining to 'the land', or perhaps 'untamed wilderness' in some half-forgotten fey tongue. My best guess is that it would be the language of the Centaurs, who may have given the Elven name to that Torillian power that became part of the Seldarine. Perhaps 'Khalreshaar' meant something akin to 'goddess of the plains', or some-such.
Which makes me now consider some of my cosmological/magical HB lore - perhaps 'shaar' pertains to the life within the world, and 'shar' pertains to death within it (or that is trying to destroy it). Similar, some-what, to Yin & Yang. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Dec 2010 21:24:11 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 01:43:33
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| That could fit- though personally, I tend to ignore that tripe about some of the Seldarine not being truly elven powers. I do not, for instance, swallow that bit about Sehenine being merely an aspect of Seluen, or Aerdrie and aspect of Akadi. To me, they are and always will be the elven deities as portrayed in Evermeet, not simply aliases for other powers.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 00:16:30
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| Hi Markus I hope you don't mind if I use your fabulous ideas of Ilythiiri history....I will fully acknowledge it....for the current Ilythiir project I'm slowly putting together??? |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 14:18:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
Hi Markus I hope you don't mind if I use your fabulous ideas of Ilythiiri history....I will fully acknowledge it....for the current Ilythiir project I'm slowly putting together???
YAY!!! You're more than welcome to use this entire thread, and this http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14253 if you want to. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 19:18:17
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So, anyone wants to contribute here and (hopefully) to Snowblood's long-awaited "Illythiir"?
Zi |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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All about Ilythiir
