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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 21:55:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
Hi Markus I hope you don't mind if I use your fabulous ideas of Ilythiiri history....I will fully acknowledge it....for the current Ilythiir project I'm slowly putting together???
Of course - the idea is to create a CONCISE history for Abeir-Toril that incorporates (or at least, takes into account) ALL Realmslore. The one great thing I came away from the WotC boards with was "History does NOT exist in a vacuum" (Thanks, GothicDan). This is why I try to weave various places and lore together, but only when it seems that the connection is plausible.
NEVER think of the period of the Crown Wars as the 'time of the Elves' - several other powerful kingdoms existed as well - although shattered, the empires of the Giants and Dragons continued to live-on for quite some time in smaller states. The Goblinoids also had a time when they rose to dominate the north (probably following the Crown Wars, with the Elven forces having been sorely depleted, and the Elves themselves sick of constant war).
Use what you want - I'd rather nearly all the (HB) lore we create here at CK be harmonious - it wouldn't make much sense if our archives were filled with lore that contradicted itself.
And of course, never contradict canon - just bend and twist the living hell out of it until it does what you want. 
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
That could fit- though personally, I tend to ignore that tripe about some of the Seldarine not being truly elven powers. I do not, for instance, swallow that bit about Sehenine being merely an aspect of Seluen, or Aerdrie and aspect of Akadi. To me, they are and always will be the elven deities as portrayed in Evermeet, not simply aliases for other powers....
As I have pointed out to Gray (my go-to guy for deep history and cosmology), one should never assume that a power (divine being) is anything but what it is; 'gods' do NOT have mortal races. They may have once, if they ascended, but that ended when they parted the mortal world (just as normal human is no longer a 'A Prime' once they die). This means that one should never look at ANY deity as an 'FR god', or an 'Earth god' - its meaningless, since gods (except for demi-powers) do NOT live there - they live in the Outer Planes, which are connected to every world.
Sune has been compared to Aphrodite a number of times, even by Ed, and several Greco-Roman deities have a place on Toril (even Poseidon has been mentioned... I think he is really Deep Sashelas). If you have been folowing my train-of-thought in some other threads, then you know I think MOST deities are imports' from earlier pantheons (just look at the RW Sumerian/Babylonian and Roman/Greek pantheons as prime examples of that).
That means that somewhere, WAY BACK in time, there was a 'first pantheon', and the most basic concepts stem from that pantheon - physical beauty and love being among them.
Look at it this way - suppose Sune is indeed a Realmspace alias for Aphrodite. The Greek Pantheon shares a plane with the Selldarine - I really doubt that is mere coincidence. Suppose the the Greek deity Hephastus (Roman: Vulcan) is really the Celtic deity Goibhnie, who in-turn emigrated to Faerūn as Gond. What if Herne was the original Black Archer (before Shevarsh - there is one in canon)?
In that way, you can see that the powers some Elven gods are supposedly aliases of are really nothing more then aliases themselves, and they all go back to some very early Celtic/Fey pantheon (that even the Seldarine are derived from). Once a god becomes a god (despite any former ties to mortal world), it becomes a being of pure energy, who only manifests in physical form for their worshipers, having the appearance that mortal minds expect to see. So Sehanine may be Sune, who may be Aphrodite, who may be Freya... who just so happens to be a Vanir... an Elven goddess living among the Aesir (the Norse pantheon has two distinct groups of 'divine beings' that make it up).
Thus proving you CAN have your cake and eat to... but only if your me.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Dec 2010 22:01:46 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 19:30:36
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| Shevarash was ascended from a mortal after death. That is canon. The title of Black Archer may just be coincidence in that case. As to the others- here are my thoughts. What I meant to say in my earlier post, is not that they are literally elven. More like the archfey/elf prototypes or ideals, given godly form, or more likely the elves were simply created in their images, regardless of what the Seldarine's actual "race" is. (They may not even call themselves elves, in the mortal sense.) What I meant was that there has been canon lore from previous editions that mentions them as being of a specific racial "type" or essence, if you will. IE- Corellon and crew are seen as the quintessential elven ideals of perfection of their race. And in the battle with the Anti-Seldarine in Evermeet, Aerdrie and Akadi fought side-by-side, and Sehenine was Corellon's advisor and later consort, with nary a mention of Selune. I wasn't referring to any "Earth" gods in that post, as I suspect that there may well be a few loitering about in Fearun under whatever names they please. However, I tend to think of the gods as generally being outside of mortal understanding, and this includes their origins and exact natures. It may be that the Seldarine is simply more closely understood by elves than by other races, and therefore those gods take that physical form as a means of allowing mortals to know them better- or at least what they stand for and represent. In this respect, I consider them distinct from similar gods of other pantheons. Two gods from different pantheons may share a portfolio, but their philosophies regarding that portfolio may be vastly different (Akadi and Auril and Talos being a prime example- all air deities, but with very different focuses and Ideologies!) That does not mean they are aspects of the same deity, more likely, they are seperate entities condending over the same shpere of influence to determine which philosophy is more valid. I don't see elven deities having the same ideals as human ones from ANY pantheon. I don't think of them in terms of their similarities, but of their differences- to me, that is what makes them distinct from other gods with the same portfolios- and is why I don't go in for the "gods lite" version of the Realms that combines some of them. It just flies in the face of those differences. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 17:31:59
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| I've been reading through a book of world mythology, and ran across something that Snowblood might use here. There was a minor goddess in Greek and Egyptian myth named Ilythia (Nekhebet in Egypt), who presided over childbirth, and protected children, especially royal ones. The Egyptian version often took a vulture form, and in Greek myth, she held a torch to bring light(life) to the eyes of a new-born. Now, we know a lot about Ilythir at its height, at least in terms of its religious leanings, but not so much about its culture, and even less about its earliest beginnings. Elven ideas aside, it could be linked with the Mulhurondi pantheon, which as we know later became part of Thay's expansionist and agressive tyranical empire (sound familiar?). Perhaps Ilythia was the Mulhurondi name for Eilistraee (in her role as protector of women and innocents), but she was shoved aside early on by Ghaunadaur and Lolth in that region. I could easily picture the cities of Ilythir starting as very much like ancient Thebes, very cosmopolitan and diverse, but soon devolving into theocratic decadence under Ka'Narlist and others. With a sort of pseudo-Greek/Egypt flavor to the culture, which would naturally involve slaves (from the Egypt side), lots of magical and philosophical debates and study, and a great deal of respect for women. Ilythia(Eilistraee)'s influences early on might have led to a tradition of strong respect for females, which was later perverted by Lolth when her faith took over from Ghaunadaur. And perhaps his own rise in the local theology was facilitated by Ilythiir who simply took their delving into "dark" magic too far- influences of Set or other Mulhurond powers, maybe? This could be where Thay eventually learned some of its unique magics from originally. Perhaps when the Descent occured, those first drow took their strange magic with them into that region! This might also help to explain some of the differences between drow language and the "pure" form of elven- the shift began becasue of the influences of those foreign powers. Just some thoughts. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 08 Dec 2010 17:39:59 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 18:46:30
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The Mulhorandi gods hadn't found any presence on Toril in the times before the descent, so they couldn't have influenced the pre-Lolthian dark elven culture. The Mulans were imported only since about 2500 years before Dale Reckoning; the Descent was around 10 000 years before Dale Reckoning.
BRJ once put forth the "sylvan" elf culture was experimenting with new gods found on Toril those thousands of years that they resided on Toril (between 25 000 years and 10 000 years is a lot of time for religious revolution).
Regarding the elven pantheon I tend to agree and disagree. For example with Sehanine I agree the elves would have a pretty strong view of the moongoddes being elf, but would they necessarily have full knowledge of the truth? I regard Sehanine worship as an elven cult of Selune, but it has a multiversal history of eons to back it up and a very large worship base, particularly amongst the wandering tribes of pirating moon elves. One good cause for this is their pirating ways brought them into early contact with a moon goddes (Selune showing herself as a mysterious elf, perhaps giving out advise on navigation) across their multiversal travels in ancient times.
I do think you bring up a good point in dark elven culture being predisposed towards female veneration. Fertility gods tend to be popular goddesses in neolithic cultures, and I see sylvan/green/dark elves as largely comparable to such cultures. Nature spirits, totems, ancestor worship and other primitive religious/shamanistic tradition were likely more prevalent amongst the more green elves, while the dark elves started to diverge more into the divine spirit worship. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 19:21:54
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| Hmm, I wasn't aware of the time-frame on that, but it might still be possible. the mulan themselves might not have been there, but that's no reason to think that the gods might not have been already feeling out the lay of the land, as it were. If the norse (untheric) gods could do it WAAAY back, so could they. Netheril existed during the same general time, so perhaps in their magical and planar explorations, they might have brought back knowledge of such gods with them. anyway, given the odd similarity of the names, I thought it a worthwhile connection to pursue, and Ilythia was the Greek name of that particular goddess, which fits in line very well with a lot of the other FR deities, since it'already been speculated that some of them are just Greek or Celtic gods under other names. Maybe Eil took another name in some worlds (she did in mine) and through those connections introduced some of the other Mulurondi deities to Toril? Eilistraee=Ilythia=Nekhebet? Those later worshipers in Thay and mulhurond would have just been venerating her under another name, and maybe a different aspect of protection of children, perhaps. Or, and here's an even weirder twist- Lolth is often referred to by Matrons as "Mother Lolth". Maybe it was HER, and they were following her under an earlier "maternal" guise before her fall? And she only later revealed her true self to them? Either way makes for some interesting possible history!! (Remember, I'm talking about EARLY Ilythiir, here, not the later empire that grew so beligerant.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 19:42:04
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| I think the dark elven culture was largely looking for power at the time. Remember that monster kingdoms were dominant at the time. Dragon realms, giant kingdoms and savage bands of goblinoids ruled the day. In competition with those realms the dark elves turned to both the outer and lower planes for aid, and received it in change for worship of elder (evil) gods, primordials, and demonic cults raised a special interest, because they gave a lot of power for little investment. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 20:34:08
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An admirable and probably insightful endeavor.
I'll put forth that the maternal influence gave them some semblance of increased power. Mostly organizationally their focus on vigorousness, or strength in numbers gave them incentive to put childbearing mothers a lot of respect. This would give the later coming of "Mother Lolth" (several hundred years afore the first crown wars ; -12 000 DR ) a nice entrance way for worship, as the willingness for strong women was already established in their culture. Eilistraee worship was taken with them from the fey realms the dark elves hailed from, as was the more popular Vhearaunian religion.
Those neighbours that showed strength might have had a good deal of influence on Ilythiiri culture. Considering they consisted not of human realms but more monstrous kingdoms the Ilythiiri took on alot of the monstrous values of that time. Dragon deities of greed, giant deities of strength, and perhaps goblinoid or wemic deities of military conquest could have founded emergent cults that later on merged into full on worship of non seldarine members. They can even be seen as making way for or being absorbed by the members that later on joined the Drow gods, such as Selvetarm, Zinzerana and Kiriansalee. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 21:00:10
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| Hmm, Bladewind, Zinzereana was an interloper demi-goddess from Oerth (GH setting). She was supposedly later subsumed by Lolth- or killed and portfolio stolen, or was merely an alias of Lolth on Oerth, take your pick. There are several versions on that. And she is MUCH more recent- long after the Descent, in fact. Selvetarm was the son of Vhaeraun and Liira(?), which makes him Lolth's grandson and Eil's nephew. Not sure how long ago, but it was not long before she merged with Sharess, which might actually make him HER son, too. After the Descent, though, I think, so not applicable. And Kiaransalee was another one that started as a mortal in GH, I believe. So far as I know, they were all drow gods to begin with, just came to Toril later than Lolth, Vhaeraun, and Eil. Ghaunadaur is the only "non-drow" deity that ever made it into the pantheon. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2010 : 11:38:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Hmm, Bladewind, Zinzereana was an interloper demi-goddess from Oerth (GH setting). She was supposedly later subsumed by Lolth- or killed and portfolio stolen, or was merely an alias of Lolth on Oerth, take your pick. There are several versions on that. And she is MUCH more recent- long after the Descent, in fact. Selvetarm was the son of Vhaeraun and Liira(?), which makes him Lolth's grandson and Eil's nephew. Not sure how long ago, but it was not long before she merged with Sharess, which might actually make him HER son, too. After the Descent, though, I think, so not applicable. And Kiaransalee was another one that started as a mortal in GH, I believe. So far as I know, they were all drow gods to begin with, just came to Toril later than Lolth, Vhaeraun, and Eil. Ghaunadaur is the only "non-drow" deity that ever made it into the pantheon.
Selvetarm is the son of Vhaeraun and Sharess, AFAIR.
Kiaransalee was indeed a mortal in GH.
There was even a theory about Menzoberra that she's a god (on a website, but I don't remember the adress).
And I thought of getting Keptolo from GH to FR somehow - the drow males need a deity other than Selvetarm and Vhaeraun, both of whom are quite warlike. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2010 : 12:02:55
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I agree, and I didn't say the predescent Ilythiiri worshipped the newcomers of the Drow pantheon but that they had placholder cults that embodied the values of the newcomers. In other words I merely suggested they had more dalliances with gods outside the early dark elven pantheon (that originally only consisted of Aurushnee, Vhaeraun and EIlistraee) than Ghaunadar alone.
For example a cult of elite ilythiiri assassins that used advanced illusory magic for disguises and infiltration deep behind enemy lines allowed the interloper and newcomer Zinzerena to quickly spread her faith. By the way, it wasn't untill the Time of Troubles that she got asurped by Lolth.
___
Zandilar the Dancer was a totem spirit of the Yuir elf deities and her ways of enticing other gods for leverage backfired when Vhaeraun imprisoned and bedded her, resulting in the birth of the naive Selvetarm. This was probably a long time after the Descent as well, in the time the Yuir elves in Aglarond were forced into extinction by human settlers from Mulhorand and Chessenta, drow attacks and mountaintroll incursions (round 600 DR).
The Yuir totems are an example of how diverse the worship of elves used to be before the Seldarine conversion. Relkath of the Infinite Branches, Zandilar the Dancer, Magnar the Bear and Elikarashae are the only known names of the total of TEN totems that formed the Yuir totems. It is said these totems predated the first elven settlers in Aglarond, and were remnants of primitive human societies.
I therefore theorize something similar must have happened to the Ilythiiri settlers that roamed the now Shaaran regions. Somesort of fiendish culture might have been uncovered by the Ilythiiri, and the reawakening of those totems brought the early rulers like Ka'Arnalist the needed power to carve out their own prosperous civilization in that dragon infested region.
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GHoTR states that early dark elves formed pacts with dragons to foster their budding realms. Attornash (and other dark elven settlements) was probably exempt from dragon attacks because of those deals. This probably made them aware of draconic gods: Faluzure, the dragongod of undeath, energy draining and decay; Garyx, god of fire, destruction and renewal; and Tiamat, goddes of greed, conquest and cruelty. These thought the dark elves important lessons that enabled them to enslave and dominate other humanoid cultures. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2010 : 18:41:22
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Um, what I menat about Zineraena was that she is MUCH more recent than that. Not only in FR, but in Greyhawk, as well. They could not have worshipped her at all, as she did not exist at the time. In GH, she was supposedly a mortal only a few centuries ago, and only acquired godhood within the last 500 years or so. (Not sure of the exact time-frame, but I know it's pretty recent.) As for the ToT, the old Monstrous Mythology book has a short reference that suggests she might have even been a "myth" that Lolth used for her own purposes, and never even existed! (Or if she did, that it was possibly an avatar or manefestation of Lolth herself in disguise...) Just something to consider.
Ah, Zandilar- I could not remember exactly which goddess that was who merged with Sharess. I just remembered that Selvatarm was born shortly before the merger of the two. And yes, it was long after the Descent. Selvie's pretty young, as gods go. Or was, before he was offed by Eil's Crescent Blade in the LP books. Incidentally, there are still a few Yiur elves in Aglarond- they have "gone underground" as it were, and do not generally show themselves to outsiders- There are supposedly a large number of half-elves among them, according to the 3.5 ed Faiths and Pantheons. Hmm, Zandilar... another aspect/incarnation of Eilistraee? Or perhaps a demi-goddess who serves her? sorry, I'm a connection, there, but it's not quite gelled yet.
Draconic gods- now that's an interesting idea. Brings to mind the Deep dragons and their habit of polymorphing into drow. Possible blood connections way back? Dragons do have some hefty magic resistances and abilities, including darkvision, so..... Don't know where that thought is going, but definitely something to think on some more. If they had followed any draconic gods, it would likely be Faluzure and Chronepsis. Tiamat perhaps, but she seems too lawful for them. I'm wondering just how "evil" Ilythiir really was, though. Aside from its leaders, what would the common folk have been like? Maybe they were just cowed into following whatever Ka'Narlist and others told them to do. Which means that they might very well have started out much less warlike, or were even against some of the worst acts of their leaders, but could do nothing (or perhaps very little) about it. Just a random thought. Undoubtedly the slave races would have brought their own deities with them, and that brings in possibilities for a few good-aligned deities to take root there, as well. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2010 : 05:05:27
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| tiamat.....malar...eilistraee......selune.....queen of air & darkness |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2010 : 13:36:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
tiamat.....malar...eilistraee......selune.....queen of air & darkness
Don't forget Lloth and Vhaeraun later on... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2010 : 15:39:45
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Alystra, I think you don't seem to get my point. I know drow gods such as Zinzerena and Selvetarm are fairly new kids on the block. I am pondering on how those values (assassination and battlelust in these cases) could have taken hold in dark elven/ilythiiri (and later on drow) culture. I therefore am looking at what behaviour (cultural/political) could have influenced early dark elven people into adapting the means that later would have given Kiriansalee, Zinzerana and Selvetarm a welcome embrace into drow culture.
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Kiriansalee is an interesting case in itself, as Evermeet showed us she already had typical drow features, even before Lolth herself did. I remember Dagnirion (Lord Karsus over at the WotC boards) theorizing that the Dark Descent curse was somehow tampered with by the Revenancer to make the subjects of the epic curse look like her more (in a bold show of her power to spite Lolth over her hold on dark elven people).
Kiriansalee has coveted Lolths power over the drow, even after she had this supposedly minor succes in the divine power-struggle. Her means of gaining more influence over drow culture, after the Dark Descent forced them belowground into the underdark was too heavy-handed, as she preferred her worshippers transform to undead. Lolth offered the sundered dark elven tribes more subtle means for survival by offering dark elves the means to survive by mingling with her demonic servants. The LoP series offered this suggestion that drow are actually some kind of strand of half-fiendish bloodlines of elves. This is probably the reason for their spellresistance, darkvision and present day red-eyed look.
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To Snowblood:-
Why did you include Selune in that summation, I wonder?
It would be more apt to say Sehanine Moonbow supported some of the Ilythiiri in the early formative years. Perhaps to guide them in moonlit nights under the darkwood and jungle canopies of the ilythiiri realms, with divination and illusion. Sehanine Moonbow is/was also known for allowing elves limited experimentation with necromancy. Her white necromancers probably invented the process of creating the deathless (positive energy infused?) bealnorn. Banshees and elven wights are probably results from failed attempts of conserving fey into benevolent undead.
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Zireael, Vhaeraun was probably a major dark elven divinity from the get-go. When the Ilythiiri tribe still roamed the wilds of Fearie they must have had Vhaeraun, Eilistraee and Araushnee as their major patron Seldarine gods. Evermeet states that Araushnee was given the patronage over the darker elves she resembled as a gift after she birthed Corellon the childs Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
Lolth -Araushnee stripped of divinity- entered the realmsian stage several thousands (or hundreds) of years later than Vhaeraun and Eilistraee did. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2010 : 01:32:18
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| @ Bladewind- Ah. Your earlier posts made it sound more like they were already worshiping those two, when they did not exist yet. Of course it was probably Lolth herself who influenced their society to hold values conductive to following Zineraena or Selvatarm. As an interesting aside, there is a brief mention very early in Evermeet which tells us that Lolth herself ALWAYS looked like the drow eventually did, as did Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. The interesting thing is, it says that she was "patron of the elves who shared her dark beauty." (I believe that is the direct quote, though the wording may not be perfect here.) This seems to suggest that they were originally much darker than some of the lore elsewhere describes, or else that there were already "drow" on at least some worlds, even before the Descent on Toril. Or it could just be reference to their darker skin tone, but either way, she and her two children (who notably took after her in appearance, rather than Corellon) clearly were already described as the drow later appeared. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2010 : 03:28:38
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| Moonlight would have been Selune rather than Sehanine for the Seldarine were not worshipped until well after the coming of the Eladrin to Faerun, thus an indigenous goddess such as Selune (or an Ilythiiri aspect of her would make more sense.... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2010 : 10:55:48
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| when the Ilythiiri first arrived their was no Seldarine activity...just the Seelie/Unseelie courts + Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur & Eilistraee, |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2010 : 19:02:28
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I daresay that 'no seldarine' activity could be contested in the case of Selune/Sehanine, though.
And Selune would likely take the effort to appear to these dark elves with her elven mask on, appearing in their visions as Sehanine Moonbow.
I also think its bit strange that sun and moon elves would have travelled to Toril with knowledge of the Seldarine, and dark elves (who likely hail from the plane of Fearie too) would not know anything about the brothers and sisters of Lerathian, the consort of their patron goddes Araushnee. LoP also makes mention of a forgotten temple to Araushnee on Toril (anyone knows it location?), indicating that at least the religious members of the dark elves likely had some knowledge of the Seldarine, which Araushnee joined fairly early on in the prehistory of the elven race.
I think one of the James brothers put forth the idea that Corellon Lerathian proposed a change in his faithful elves, somesort of apotheosis that changes a normal elf into the more arcanely talented eladrin one can see in moon and sun elves. This advantage forced those that lagged behind but still wanted to compete to turn to the dark powers given by demonic worship (Malkizid), unseelie pacts (Auril/Queen of air and darkness) and elder evil insight (Ghaunadar).
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 05:50:13
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| I agree with that post Bladewind. From what I can tell, they already knew of the Seldarine, but seem to have simply gone a different route in their religion, perhaps because of (real or perceived) bias on the part of Corellon toward his "favored" children. Although given his obvious favor toward Eilistraee, this seems odd. Perhaps he was upset by their resemblance to his exiled daughter, so when the other elves became eladrin (did I mention that I think that's a load of crap?) they missed out. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 10:36:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I agree with that post Bladewind. From what I can tell, they already knew of the Seldarine, but seem to have simply gone a different route in their religion, perhaps because of (real or perceived) bias on the part of Corellon toward his "favored" children. Although given his obvious favor toward Eilistraee, this seems odd. Perhaps he was upset by their resemblance to his exiled daughter, so when the other elves became eladrin (did I mention that I think that's a load of crap?) they missed out.
Yes you did
And this theory has merit. Especially that they went in a drastically different direction when Wendonai came (my favourite bit!). |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 11:58:34
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| Wait... I had always supposed that the dark elves (Ilythiiri) had come to Toril from Threnody, prior to its destruction; reading this topic for the first time today, it would seem that that isn't the consensus. Has a migration from Threnody (or some other world) been ruled out explicitly for the dark elves? |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 13:41:13
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Nothing can be ruled out, since we're discussing ancient history and legends of that time. Myths tend to get muddy, and the data of all the Seldarine relationships are incomprehensible at best.
Threnody's destruction is accounted to have occurred over 30 000 years ago (in Oerth dates), well before the ousting of Araushnee. So it could very well be possible that some dark elves from that planet might have escaped the zombie apocalyps Kiriansalee unleashed. Kiriansalee was already fleeing for the wrath of the Seldarine at that time, so she chose the infinite Abyss in the demonic realms as her refuge.
The time dates of all the multiverse are slowly getting considered to flow similarly, without sufficient evidence that of time anomalies 30 000 years before current time on Oerth is probably the same on Abeir-Toril. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 19:38:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Wait... I had always supposed that the dark elves (Ilythiiri) had come to Toril from Threnody, prior to its destruction; reading this topic for the first time today, it would seem that that isn't the consensus. Has a migration from Threnody (or some other world) been ruled out explicitly for the dark elves?
And I always supposed they came from Faerie, like all the other elves (and Ka'Narlist himself) |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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All about Ilythiir
