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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Oct 2010 : 23:11:08
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this is from Counselors and Kings:
''Legend has it that once, many thousands of years ago, an Ilythiiri wizard stumbled through the veil that separates the world we see from the unseen world of the Unseelie Court. There she learned some of the magic of the dark fairies, most of it by unfortunate firsthand experience. After much torment, she escaped, now utterly insane but carrying a knowledge of fell magic that surpassed any wizard in the land. She began a rise to power that attracted the darkest hearts of her time to her court. Her name is lost to memory, and she is known only as the Spider Queen. It is said that the evil goddess of the drow, Lolth, assimilated the wizard into her own being, taking for herself both the wizard's name and her dark magic. It is said that something of the wizard's memory remains within the goddess, and as a result, the drow, even Lolth herself, fear the Unseelie folk.'' |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 15:26:16
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ALL dark Elves (in FR) were originally part of the Ilythiir tribe.
The Miyeritar Dark Elves were a single clan living in the North. Dozens of smaller clans existed, but only the ones that did anything noteworthy (like moving away from their fellows) is mentioned in source.
Only one other was named, in the GHotR, but I am not near that source at this time. That clan went into the Unapproachable east, I believe.
AFAIK, only one tribe of Dark Elves came over with the other Sylvan Elves from Faerie, and all Drow derive from them. The Miyeritar Elves were just more level-headed then their southern brethren.
I have a theory that the Maviddi of the east were another 'lost tribe', as are the Akota of Zakhara. Nothing canon, mind you. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Oct 2010 20:10:46 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 07:57:36
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| Are you sure? Because the time-line in Cormanthyr says Miyeritar and Ilythiir were both separate kingdoms. GHotR says the same thing. Where does the Ilythiir tribe stuff come in? I'm confused. There is so little lore on them before the descent that I can't seem to find anything really concrete on them. Evermeet just says they were already there when the other elves came from Tintageer. Did they just come from faerie earlier? Or were they "always" there? I've not found anything on their original home/kingdom/ect. Sorry, I'm just trying to get a good fix on how that fits in with the canon I have- which admittedly isn't much. My sources are limited to Cormanthyr, Fall of Myth Drannor, Faiths and Pantheons, Monster Mythology, Demihuman Deities, Underdark, and 3.5 FRCS books. Also the Evermeet novel and WotSQ books. Is there another source for that link to faerie or the tribal ties that I'm missing? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 19:18:50
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Ok, I just got Storm of the Dead today and it seems Melarn are Miyeritari indeed.
Still, I'm looking for anything that can be found. Or even I can accept some homebrew, provided it's good. I love the Ilythiiri... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 20:19:10
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I'm not near my books, so I can't verify aything, GHotR is rather vague - it only mentions the Green (Sylvan) Elves coming to Toril early on (which the Dark Elves were part of).
HOWEVER, in Elaine's Evermeet novel, we have Sharlario and his son encountering the Dark Elves in the deep south. They had never encountered them in the north. Had their been Dark Elves in the north, I would think they would have ran into those LONG before they met up with the Ilythiir Elves.
Hence, my assumption that all Dark Elves came from the south, and all were Ilythiir at some point (because that is the only group mentioned in those VERY early times).
The split that occurred later seems to have been a result of differing opinions over the War of Three Leaves, because that is when we first hear about those other two groups that went elsewhere in that vinget in the GHotR.
This is all from memory BTW, sorry I can't confirm any of it or provide page numbers.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Oct 2010 20:20:42 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 22:35:18
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Miyeritar was a part of Aryvandaar
what if the original dark elven split happened cause of Ghaunadaur and the sharns |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 01:30:47
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| Correction: Miyeritar was forcibly annexed to Aryvandaar. They really weren't happy about it either. :P |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 09:32:27
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| yea, I mean the founding of Miyeritar, they split off due to political differences |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 17:54:44
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I just read Snowblood's Miyeritar. Can't wait for his Tel Verinal or Ilythiir.
So I guess some clans can be taken as a rule of reverse (those not mentioned in here are from Ilythiir).
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Anything canon on Ilythiir? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 19:19:19
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Right - first mention of ANY dark Elves was by Elaine in Evermeet, when Shalario encountered them. That was a very specific group, BTW, and it appears (there) that Ka'narlist was not in complete control at that time, and may have even been an outcast (because Eilistraee describes the Dark Elves one way, and Shalario encounters a very different situation).
Eilistraee tells Shalario (before he meets Ka'Narlist) about the Ilythiir and how they worship her brother Vhaeraun, which we see none of in that scene with ka'narlist (in fact, he mocks the Vhaeraun-worshipers). In the scene with Eilistraee, it is apparent that she uses 'Dark Elf' and 'Ilythiir' interchangeably, so one can assume at that juncture in time they were one and the same. Ka'narlist's city appears to be the first of many 'break-aways' certain groups had from the main Ilythiir tribe.
And that other group were the Sethomiir (just read that in another thread and post by Zireal). So they and the Miyeritar are the only other two sub-groups mentioned in canon, although it is assumed there are more that are not yet named.
As for the Miyeritar and Aryvandaar, that occurred MUCH later in the timeline, long after Sharlario and his son met the dark elves of the south.
The only other assumption one can make from that scene with Ka'narlist is that his enclave was on the outskirts of Ilythiir territory, because Sharlario encountered him first, before he got into the mainstream Ilythiir lands (according to Eilistraee, Sharlario and his son were heading straight for Ilythiir territory).
Going by the path of Sharlario's travel and the canon placement of the Ilythiir, one can assume that Ka'narlist was somewhere in the vicinity of the Lake of Steam (which would have looked very different back then - that was pre-Sundering IIRC). That's conjecture, however, and was hotly debated between Lord Karsus and I (who seems to think ka'narlist was already king of, and centrally located to, the Ilythiir in that scene, despite a goddess' testimony to the contrary). In his defense, I do believe he came up with a GHotR entry that contradicted my own assumptions (making Eilistraee out to be an uninformed idiot, IMHO - bad lore).
Don't know who wrote that entry, but I doubt they read that scene (with the goddess) as carefully and as many times as I had.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2010 19:22:57 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 03:15:39
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| Hmm, I agree with your assessment, MT- PARTIALLY. True enough that the Ilythiir were the first group encountered in Evermeet, but the time-line in Cormanthyr (pg 29) says that Miyeritar was in fact founded (-18,800) by dark and green elves from Aryvandaar. This is FAR distant from Ilythiir, which was close to modern Shaar and forest of Amtar, while Miyeritar and Aryvandaar were in the High Forest,/High Moor and Misty Forest region. I really don't see the Ilythiiri moving THAT far north to join Aryvandaar, only to end up moving out again over some political differences. It would seem that they were separate tribes to begin with. And the War of Three Leaves came MUCH later than that (-17,100).And the Miyeritar(i?) apparently were the center of art and High Magic several centuries after that, while the Ilythiiri were busy delving into dark powers. Seems like more than a difference in ideology- but an entirely separate culture. And it really doesn't specify when Sharlario and his son met Eilistraee and visited that city. We'd have to place it in the time-line to get a better picture. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 18:47:40
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And 300 years ago this was Indian land.
Your point? 
Sorry for being snarky - I'm just in one of my capricious moods.
Anyhow, the way I see it playing out is that the Miyeritar clan decided they wanted to learn about the elves of the north and their culture. At that time there were probably several clans that had issues with the rather brutal lifestyle of the Dark Elves (I'm picturing a culture similar to Star Trek's Klingons, honorable but warlike, with many life-risking physical games and contests).
So the Miyeritar, Sethomiir, and whatever other groups were like-minded, left their ancestral lands to 'better themselves'. In some cases this worked (as it did to the Miyeitari for a short time), but in many their own 'dark' tendencies came to the fore and they wound-up worshiping other fell powers and committing even darker deeds.
I would hazard to guess it was the War of Three Leaves that was the stimulus for the Ilythiiri migrations. It was the first major clash that would have galvanized the less-violent of their people into leaving.
Ka'Narlist did indeed become king. I think this was the result of those 'goodly' Ilythiir leaving for 'parts unknown'. The cream of the crop rose to the top (and split), and the dross was left, ripe for Ka'Narlist's further corruption. If their is one thing Ilythiir - and now the Drow - respect, its power, and ka'Narlist had that to spare.
I also use the lore to further support my theories - the southern ilythiir went into a frenzy after their northern 'kin' were annihilated by the Aryvandaar. They went on a rampage and started killing any other 'light elves' even remotely associated with the Aryvandaar elves (all of that is canon). Would this have been the case if the bonds between the Ilythiir and Miyeritar were less 'familial'? Their reaction was of a magnitude never before seen amongst any elven group - they acted as if their blood-relatives were killed. That doesn't sound like just an affinity for persons of a like skin-color to me; it appears they took it personally. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2010 20:30:50 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 23:07:34
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But the migrations of the Miyeritari were stated as happening long BEFORE the War of Three Leaves. (See the dates above.) So why would that cause the migration? The lore on the Crown Wars seems to indicate that the Ilythiiri only used the earlier slaughter as an excuse for their already degraded morality in conquoring others. Not that they actually claimed any blood ties. Maybe it's just semantics, but I just don't read any familial relationship into that timeline and lore. Aside from the obvious racial ties- which seems to be the only reason Ilythiir ever did ANYTHING. Is it just me, or does this almost smack of certain modern racial issues creeping into the FR lore?
Edit: just thought of something. If the Miyeritar dark elves HAD been originally from Ilythiir, wouldn't the time-line and lore from that era have mentioned that? There is no mention of them prior to that at all. That wouls seem to show that they had never been anywhere else, since all other migrations are mentioned quite specifically. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 21 Oct 2010 23:10:10 |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 02:26:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would hazard to guess it was the War of Three Leaves that was the stimulus for the Ilythiiri migrations. It was the first major clash that would have galvanized the less-violent of their people into leaving.
Ka'Narlist did indeed become king. I think this was the result of those 'goodly' Ilythiir leaving for 'parts unknown'. The cream of the crop rose to the top (and split), and the dross was left, ripe for Ka'Narlist's further corruption. If their is one thing Ilythiir - and now the Drow - respect, its power, and ka'Narlist had that to spare.
That would make a great deal of sense. Although it would make more sense to have some of minor clans up and leave with their biggest ally for greener pastures.
quote:
I also use the lore to further support my theories - the southern ilythiir went into a frenzy after their northern 'kin' were annihilated by the Aryvandaar. They went on a rampage and started killing any other 'light elves' even remotely associated with the Aryvandaar elves (all of that is canon). Would this have been the case if the bonds between the Ilythiir and Miyeritar were less 'familial'? Their reaction was of a magnitude never before seen amongst any elven group - they acted as if their blood-relatives were killed. That doesn't sound like just an affinity for persons of a like skin-color to me; it appears they took it personally.
Either that or they liked the look of the lands neighboring them. If those first attacks were in reaction to the Dark Disaster, then it took Ilythiir quite a while to work their way up to direct conflict with Aryvandaar. But then I tend to look for economic reasons for war.
Unless someone happens to know what the diplomatic relationship between Miyeritar and Ilythiir was during that time period. (I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment) |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 08:37:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
<snip>
I would hazard to guess it was the War of Three Leaves that was the stimulus for the Ilythiiri migrations. It was the first major clash that would have galvanized the less-violent of their people into leaving.
Ka'Narlist did indeed become king. I think this was the result of those 'goodly' Ilythiir leaving for 'parts unknown'. The cream of the crop rose to the top (and split), and the dross was left, ripe for Ka'Narlist's further corruption. If their is one thing Ilythiir - and now the Drow - respect, its power, and ka'Narlist had that to spare.
I also use the lore to further support my theories - the southern ilythiir went into a frenzy after their northern 'kin' were annihilated by the Aryvandaar. They went on a rampage and started killing any other 'light elves' even remotely associated with the Aryvandaar elves (all of that is canon). Would this have been the case if the bonds between the Ilythiir and Miyeritar were less 'familial'? Their reaction was of a magnitude never before seen amongst any elven group - they acted as if their blood-relatives were killed. That doesn't sound like just an affinity for persons of a like skin-color to me; it appears they took it personally.
I agree about the War of the Three Leaves.
And I guess that the reaction of the Ilythiiri to the Dark Disaster (or surviving Miyeritari to Ilythiiri being blamed) suggests close blood relation. Maybe not close in 'sharing the same grandparents' sort of way, but 'sharing grand-grand-5x-parents'.
And Ka'Narlist being king? That's top of the cake for me! |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 17:39:31
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Lady Fellshot wrote:
Either that or they liked the look of the lands neighboring them. If those first attacks were in reaction to the Dark Disaster, then it took Ilythiir quite a while to work their way up to direct conflict with Aryvandaar. But then I tend to look for economic reasons for war.
Unless someone happens to know what the diplomatic relationship between Miyeritar and Ilythiir was during that time period. (I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment)
@ Fellshot:
From the lore, there doesn't seem to be any relations between the two at all during that time, if there ever HAD been. And you're right, it DOES seem a bit odd that it took them so long to respond if it were a "personal" matter. Sounds like they took advantage of the situation brewing for their own benefit. We're talking several hundred years here. That doesn't sound like a personal vendetta- and by elves, no less, who are known for swift reprisals- more like a political excuse for aggressive expansion, by a clan/nation already delving into the "dark side".
I'm sorry, MT, but I just don't see any connections between the two clans. The earliest mention of the Miyeritari places them nowhere NEAR Ilythiir, and refers to them as originally from Aryvandaar. It just doesn't fit. Even with the material from the Evermeet novel, which does not mention them at all, the connection is only speculative, at best. But that's just my interpretation. You're free to your own, of course- just saying it seems kinda iffy. Perhaps they came to Faerun at the same time, but simply came through in different locales. If they DID have clan ties, it would have to be in Faerie, and we don't know anything about them from that time.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 05:30:30
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Fine.
But then where did they come from? Did they appear spontaneously? We have the lore from the Evermeet novel that the dark elves lived to the south - they were never encountered in the north when the Eladrin first arrived (and for some time after.)
So we have no dark Elves in the north, and we have Ilythiir in the south. Then a LONG time later we have Dark Elves in the north. So those Miyeritar either manifested spontaneously, came from some other plane, or were from the other group.
I finally get to use something that has been used against me on many occasions - Occam's Razor: The simplest solution is usually the correct one.
Also, it doesn't necessarily mean that because the Miyeritar were once with the Ilythiir, that they were Ilythiir. For instance, the Apache were Apachean. the Navajo were also Apachean, but they were not Apache. The Nevajo were part of the larger cultural group that took its name from the Apache. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 08:10:44
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the migrations from Faerie lasted for another few thousand years after Sharlario, the aquatics arrived late
or there was a group from Aryvaandar that wanted to distance themselves from the gold elves, they changed their subrace, there's a high magic ritual that does the change
but nothing is that simple, probably a combination of all, plus migrations of like-minded people from Ilythiir, Svartalfheim etc. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 04:17:48
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| Well, Evermeet doesn,t actually MENTION any dark elves in the north, but that doesn't necessarily mean they weren't there. Maybe Sharlario just never came across them. It's pretty big area to cover, after all. And he encountered Eilistraee in a forest pretty far from Ilythiir, so maybe that's what she was doing there- the Melarns are mentioned in the LP trilogy as having originally worshiped her- perhaps the Miyeritari were under her protection, and she was there because of a ritual they were performing at the time? It would certainly makes sense. I don't remember it ever saying just where they were when she showed up, but it IS a possibility to consider. Perhaps they were more like the green elves at that time- very secretive, and just did not show themselves to the more militant gold elves. That's just my own personal theory- take it for what it is. And as Quale said, there were other migrations from Fairie later, so perhaps they came in one of those, too. Maybe even at eilistraee's insistence! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 18:22:30
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Well, everyone I know that has looked into this has come up with different conclusions (Karsus and I disagreed quite heatedly).
There is no evidence that 'common' Elves (green/Sylvan Elves or just plain 'Elves' in 4e) ever migrated to Toril after the arrival of the Eladrin (High Elves, our old Sun/Moon/Star Elves).
You have a few Eladrin 'tossed out of' paradise, and they had to breed with each other and the 'savages' (those common Elves) to create today's Elven Racial groups. BTW, anyone notice the parallel between that and the Eden story? The Sylvan Elves become the 'wandering hordes' in that analogy.
Anyhow, there is so much room for conjecture that there are many ways to spin it. I never read Lady penitent, nor do I wish to.
Before I started really studying the lore around the Dark Elves (and quite reluctantly - I dislike Elves VERY much, even dark ones), I had thought that the dark Elves were just a 'darker' variant of Green/Wood Elves (long before that was ever made official). Since they lived in the far south, I felt this 'dark' descriptor was something that referenced both their nature (savage) and their skin-tone (in much the same way it was applied when real-world humans referred to Africa as "the dark continent"). The more northern Sylvan elves would have given the dark Elves this nick-name, not the Eladrin (since Elaine's story clearly illustrates they were called that before Eladrin were even aware of them).
So here is what we have - before 'High Elves' even arrived on Toril, the Green elves that were sent-ahead by the Fey had already divided into at least two sub-groups. Those of a more 'civilized' nature, and those that embraced their emotional chaos (I'm thinking this was along the lines of the Vulcan/Romulan schism). I say 'Emotional chaos' because these were recent (in elven terms) arrivals from the feywild, and would have been much more inclined to behave in a capricious manner as other Fey do. HOWEVER, it is obvious from the GHotR entries that this group was sent forth with a purpose (pertaining to dragons). So we then have cultural dichotomy of their wild nature vs their loyalty to the fey court. This is where I feel the REAL first split began (which may have had even earlier roots back in Faerie).
There was also a 3rd group forming - one that embraced their wild natures, but didn't live as far south. This group behaved much as the Illythiir did, but did not have the skin tones and weren't quite as savage: we know them as Grugach (Gru'Agach = 'Wild Tribe' in fey). They also kept to themselves and did not get involved in the Crown Wars, and retreated further into their forests and away from their Elven kin.
We are really just splitting hairs here: the group known today by scholars as Ilythiir would include all Dark Elves pre-descent, even though there were probably many other sub-groups (tribes & clans) that did not consider themselves part of the actual Ilythiir tribe. We are talking about 25,000+ years of history here - Faerunian sages aren't all that different from modern anthropologists, in that they would be lumping many similar cultural groups together just for scientific categorization (which is slightly racist, but it happens).
So when we read about the Miyeritar or Sethomir, or any other dark-Elven group in our source-books and novels, we are viewing the information handed to us through a 'colored lens' that has been clouded by many centuries. Perhaps there was one great 'Ilythir' tribe (note the spelling), that absorbed all the other smaller tribes to become the Ilythiir, in much the same way that Aryvandaar absorbed dozens of other, smaller elven Kingdoms in the north.
Even though back then the Miyeritar and Sethomir would have considered themselves to be different groups then the Ilythiir, in the current scheme of things and looking at it all through a modern interpretation of those ancient events, we see very little difference between them and just call them all 'Ilythiir'. But there had to be some connecting factor, other then skin-tone, that made the Miyeritar 'dark elves', because they obviously behaved quite a bit differently then their southern counterparts. Even if the Ilythiir just used the Dark Disaster as an excuse to go to war, there still had to be some sort of basis to their claims.
For instance, if the United States started rounding up all of its Mexican-American citizens and putting them in 'camps', Mexico would have a VERY good reason to take umbrage at that fact and go to war with us (although that would be incredibly stupid, but this is just an example). The whole world would look at their cause as 'just'. On the other hand, if Canada (or Brazil) turned around and said "You are hurting our Mexican brothers!" and attacked, it would be a bit absurd, and no-one would be on their side.
So my point is there MUST have been some connection between all these groups, aside from their skin color, otherwise the little bit of lore we have regarding them begins to unravel. It certainly wasn't a cultural connection, since the Miyertar seemed to be much more like the Aryvandaar in that regard. The Ilythiir's stand on the Dark Disaster would not have held water without something deeper to back it up.
Besides... wouldn't Corellon's persecution (which is exactly what the descent curse was) of the dark Elves be SO MUCH WORSE if it was based merely on skin-color? I mentioned the Grugach( wild) Elves earlier to make a point - there were other Elven groups that behaved similar to the ilythiir, and yet were not singled-out. Nor were the Aryvandaar, who in my opinion committed far worse atrocities. If magic works along logical lines, as it must, then there HAD TO be something physical for Elven Ritual to 'latch onto'. Skin-color is too arbitrary - plenty of wild, non-dark Elves have very dark skin, and if the curse only targeted the dark Elves fighting in the Crown wars, then why were all of them affected (apparently even in other planes)?
What we in a technological world refer to as 'genetics', a fantasy environment refers to as 'bloodlines'. The answer has to be in the blood. That is the only thing that makes sense in light of who the curse affected. The parameters had absolutely nothing to do with culture or 'crimes committed', else other (non-dark) Elves would have be affected as well. Think of the curse as a magically engineered air-born contagion that specifically targeted those of Ilythiir blood. The mistake that was made was not figuring how far-reaching the curse or that bloodline went. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Oct 2010 18:56:09 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 08:37:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, everyone I know that has looked into this has come up with different conclusions (Karsus and I disagreed quite heatedly).
<snip>
I know, LK ditched my mention of some surviving houses (Melarn and Hune) in my snippet about Descent of the Drow for Elves of Faerun. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 20:55:12
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You know, it's the bloodline part that has always bothered me. Obviously they must have shared SOME blood along the lines, but how much is hard to say. It's like saying blacks from Africa and Australia are related. They clearly seem to have some blood in common, but from a relationship stantpoint, it's too little to matter. BUT!! gods being what they are, they SHOULD have been able to find a way to differentiate between the groups that had committed the crimes, and those who were faithful or at least did not commit the atrocities that led to the Descent. It just seems like it was a little extreme even for (allegedly) "elitist" elven gods. Not saying they are perfect, but the curse should have been more discriminating.
In my own home campaigns, I took care of that problem easily. In my home setting, (not FR, but it works off of a similar history, though I added some elements of Krynn elven lore to weave it more tightly) I had my "Elfwood Wars" started by just a few clans in various elven realms who becam too ambitious and greedy (turning against their own races, in fact), and to tell the faithful from the traitors, the curse was laid to change their appearance. So there were no "dark elves" BEFORE the conflicts. Unless one goes by the Krynnish definition (a la Dalamar the Dark). Thus it was indeed a blood-curse, perpetuated down the lines of those who first earned it, to their descendants, whether those descendants deserved it or not. (Makes for some interesting options for a possible "redemption" of descendants who wish to rejoin elven society.)
I guess I just try to look at each peice of the puzzle seperatly, to avoid the lumping together that you mentioned. And I like to look for where threads diverge or come together, as opposed to just thinking of different groups as simply all being part of a whole, even though they must have had some very distant ties, though I suspect it was long before they ever came to Faerun, and was nearly forgotten bythe time of the Crown Wars. They just did not belong to the same family branch anymore, having split off into seperate ones of their own. Which leads to those Houses Zireal just mentioned (and a few others). Some of this was in the LP books, which you really ought to at least read for the background lore, if nothing else. There was some really good stuff in there that goes back to pre-Descent dark elves. Though I'd have been happier if it had gone into why they lost the art of making the Telu'kirras.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 21:44:13
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Well, in the homebrew world I am working on my version of 'dark Elves' are quite different from Drow - they are much closer to the folklore original Svartįlfar.
In fact, the closest any of D&D's Elven groups come to them are the Shadow Elves of Mystara.
Mine are albino (like Ed's), and have very large, all-black eyes. Smaller even then standard Drow, and VERY creepy (almost like a cross between elves and Gibberlings).
My Męladrin are a cross between Melnibonean's (Elric) and shades, and my Sylvani are a like Lythari, but more mystical.
Trying to create a world without redundancy or stereotypes is fun, but a lot of work.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Oct 2010 21:44:40 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 06:10:45
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| Agreed. I've spent years working on mine, and I'm still hammering out the details of the lore and history. My homebrew world has two types of Wood elves- the "standard" Wood (green elves, and a sort of "Oriental" version, with a culture that is somewhere between tribal/shamanistic, and Feudal Japan. The second group of Wood elves were the ONLY elven culture in my world that never had any drow come out of it- they were too far removed from the conflicts, and their honor-based society was too strict to allow the kind of betrayals that created my world's drow. Which gives them the distinction of being the only "pure" elven race. The others- silver(gray/Moon), dawn(gold), and other Wood elves all had traitors in their midst at one time or another. Even the Lythari of my world had a few..... Which led to a city of drow shape-shifters. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 10:30:01
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We're getting sidetracked here. :D
Snowblood recently mentioned "Ilythiir is a monster" or something to that effect and that we shouldn't expect him to do it soon. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2010 : 18:06:01
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As I have stated, I don't think the Ilythiir people were 'monsters' (although Ed himself has stated "Elves are monsters"), what they were were a very agressive (yet noble) group of savage Elves. At that time, most Green/Sylvan Elves would have been considered 'savages' by Eladrin and other civilized cultures in existence at that time (the Gnolls of that era may have even been more civilized back then).
I compare them a lot to Klingons -
Headstrong, and set in their ways, but they do have a certain sense of honor and dignity about them. Certain of their leaders - leaders being what they are - sought more power, and became corrupted by the forces they dealt with - Ka'Narlist chief among them. Cults arose within their ranks, of dark gods and darker fiends, and the power of the various churches extended their influence to whatever leaders who weren't already corrupted. It was a downward spiral from there.
They weren't united at first - mostly wild tribes living in the vast southern forests and jungles - but a few city-states arose, and from those the corruption spread. One could wax philosophical about how civilization itself is a 'corrupting force', but I will leave such musings to the philosophers. Just let it be said that the trappings of civilization allow for idleness, and we all know what 'idle hands' are capable of.
Ka'narlist, the most powerful Dark Elven Sorceror, had solidified his control over his city and sought to extend his influence to other lands. He sent emissaries (spies, really) to the other Dark Elven Cities, and even to other Sylvan Elf kingdoms, seeking and exploiting every weakness possible. If not for the Sundering, in which he disappeared to the bottom of the sea, he may have manged to fulfill his dream of ruling all Elves, everywhere.
It was during these early stages of corruption that the Ilythiir first became involved in the War of Three Leaves. The leadership (already being lulled by power) used spies and sabotage to undermine the budding alliance between their neighbors (without the knowledge of the common folk, of course... such things happen, you know). Although no proof was ever found of their meddling, it was suspected by all involved, and bad feelings began to fester into hatred.
Time went on, and the Dark Elves of Illythiir became more solitary and xenophobic, and much of this attitude was fostered by the leadership and cults, which were now becoming one and the same thing. the 'Olde Religion' was forced out, and the Yuir Gods forgotten, and the churches of the Dark Gods rose to power. Eventually this lead to strife between the competing sects, and one rose to the top - that of Lolth. Her church rose to supreme power in Attornash, after its leader and High priest - Ka'Narlist - perished. Soon, the other city states fell before the might of Attornash and its armies of mutated abominations and slaves. Most simply excepted them as their rulers without a fight... after they had made examples of the first few cities which refused him.
During this millenia of internal strife and political upheaval, many Dark Elves who would not agree with their leaders and their religious oppression fled for distant lands. Some went north to join their Sylvan brothers in Aryvandaar, while others - who themselves followed less reputable 'gods' - fled into the east (and some, it is said, crossed 'the great water' to a new land across the southern sea).
Eventually, Attornash's domination of the civilized Ilythiir was complete, but they had trouble convincing the wild tribes to join them - they cared not for power or conquest; they simply wanted to live in the old ways and enjoy their forests and plains. So the leaders of the Ilythiir struck upon an idea - following in the footsteps of Ka'Narlist, they sent spies north into Aryvandaar, and using magic and bribery, were able to cause friction between the Eladrin of that realm and the Green Elves who lived amongst them.
And so, much in the same way some of their own disillusioned Ilythiir had left for 'greener pastures', the dissatisfied Green Elves of Aryvandaar left and founded their own realms, chief among them Miyeritar. Many of the Dark-Elven spies went with them - some mighty wizards themselves - and Miyeritar soon rose to a greatness that rivaled Aryvandaar itself. However, as much as the Ilythiir tried to control this fair Realm from afar, it was not to be, and they were only able to have minor influence on the trade and foreign policies. Indeed, many of their own people turned their back on them as their own fortunes rose with the majesty of Miyeritar.
No one knows for sure what happened next - the Vyshaan claim that Dark-Elven spies tried to assassinate their Coronal and blamed Miyeritar. The Miyeritarrans, for their part, accused the Aryvandaar of lying, in order to get other Elven realms to side with them against the growing might of Miyeritar. As for the southern Ilythiir Dark Elves, no one thought to even accuse them, since they had become isolated from their fellow elves and kept to their own devices (which included conquering the rest of the South lands and enslaving other races and even other elves who did not agree with their rule).
When the Dark Disaster occurred, all were shocked at what befell. The Arvandaar had not counted on the destruction being so complete - some High Mages even claim that some sort of corruption had gotten into the magic and tainted the spell, boosting the chaotic forces beyond their control. As for the Ilythiir, they considered the destruction of the Miyeritar an outrage, and their leaders declared a 'Feyhaad' (Elven Holy War) on Aryvandaar and its allies (which unfortunately/conveniently included it's trading partners near Ilythiir lands). With that single horrific act, the Vyshaan did what Ka'Narlist himself could not do for so long - unite the wild tribes into a single empire, bent on destructive vengeance.
The rest is history. For the common Ilythiir folk, they only knew what their leaders lead them to believe, and as it is with any warlike people, they took to the fighting with unsettling gusto. Forests were burned - some Ilythiir blamed Dragons, others blamed wizards who 'appeared out of nowhere', and some even claim to have seen both. Regardless, the Dark Elven armies did not put the forests alight - Sylvan Elves would NEVER to stoop to such a thing. Alas, the rest of the Elven peoples of Faerun did not believed their tales, and many blamed them for those unspeakable acts. Only Keltormir remained neutral, and refused to take sides, doubting the motives and actions of all the others involved.
The truth matters not - the Dark Elves - even the many innocent ones - all shared the curse of the Seldarine. When the Dhaerow Ritual was held, the priests open a conduit to the Divine Realms, to allow the free flow of power into them from the heavens. Once again, something unexpected occurred and the levels of power were far greater then they accounted for, and the priests were unable to control all the energy they had summoned. Many blame Lolth for the surge, but others say they felt a more... shadowy... presence.
So do not blame the Ilythiir for the evil of their leaders; like any loyal people they believed what they were told and fought for what they thought was right. By the time the descent Curse fell upon them, many had become corrupted themselves by all they saw and did, but just as many remained unaware of the fell deeds taking place around them. The Crown wars were started by greedy individuals, and the Elven race paid the price. The entire truth may never be known.
Pharos - last Judicicar of Miyeritar and witness to the Elven Shame
Hope that helps - its almost etirely HB (based on the official lore). I specifically left parts vague so people can spin the canon events anyway they want.
EDIT: I had to modify this - I realized there was a few anachronistic entries regarding Ka'Narlist. He actually perished before most of the trouble started (although the wheels he set in motion continued the Ilythiir down their dark path). I can't seem to find the official source that states he was king - it kind of throws off the rest of the history a bit. AFAIK, he was only king of Attornash, not the Ilythiir. I will have to look for that entry; it may be anachronistic as well (in which case, I have an easy fix). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Nov 2010 23:52:24 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2010 : 22:20:35
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Nice work.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2010 : 23:59:40
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Thanks George - high praise coming from you.
I had to re-write parts of it again - I had so tightly woven Ka'Narlist into everything I still had little bits of him stuck in there.
It must have been his legacy. That and the fact his daughter Narlista briefly (a century or two - brief by Elven standards) poised as her father 'returned'. Once Lolth had arisen to godhood again, Narlista was able to reveal herself for what she truly was - the first Chosen of Lolth (and why she adopted the same prefix 'Ka' as her father - it means 'Most Holy' in some ancient Fey dialect).
That, of course, is my fix for any anachronisms still lurking about, and is 100% Homebrew. 
Reported sighting of Ka'Narlist continued for over a thousand years after his death. To the Dark Elves, he was both a savior, and 'the boogeyman'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2010 00:21:42 |
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All about Ilythiir
