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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 05:51:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was actually thinking in terms of the Weave, not the setting itself.
Ah.
I was thinking more in terms of Ed's "Chauntea IS the land." And given that the Weave itself also forms part of the land and the reality of the Realms as well, I would expect that any type of "rebooting the Weave" scenario would also tend to have an affect upon the land. And that's Chauntea's domain after all.
I mean, we saw what kind of negative impact the collapse of the Weave had upon the land during the Spellplague. I can't imagine Chauntea was too happy about that.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 06:11:36
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Perhaps they were all Chosen of the Goddess of Mysteries -- with Halaster being the earliest model, and Elminster being the "newest." Only, it took those millennia for Mystryl/Mystra to perfect the process.
Sounds likely. But if it were really the case, it would appear like Mystra had been an irresponsible “Mother” to Halaster. If Halaster was her Chosen, how could she let him degenerate so much he became insane? She'd saved Elminster countless times.
Well, this kinda ties into my theory about what I've previously said re: Larloch and his possible "Chosen" status:-
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
You know, it's funny, but thinking further about this [while waiting for programs to compile at work], I started considering Larloch's advanced age when compared to the other Chosen of Mystra.
Theory time:- Perhaps Larloch is a First-Generation Chosen -- a kind of pre-cursor to the current Chosen-model [and Second-Generation versions] that was eventually granted to Elminster, Storm, Khelben, and the rest. Maybe Larloch's reliance on undeath was the ONLY way he could maintain his essence and power at that time, long before the Lady of Mysteries perfected the method of safely ensuring her power could allow for the kind of divinely-inspired immortality that the Second-Generation Chosen now enjoy.
Larloch could, theoretically, represent an earlier version of the Chosen -- which satisfies the long-debated point of just what his relationship is with Mystra and, also, why the events of "Tears So White" had such an impact upon him.
And since "earlier versions" of most things tend to have unexpected problems... it might be simple enough to explain Halaster's insanity as merely the result of being the end-product of an imperfect [when compared to the format of the Chosen used on Elminster] Chosen-creation technique.
She just couldn't "cure" him, as Ed says in the tidbit Wooly quoted above. Maybe she wasn't able to as a result of his earlier possible Chosen status. Or perhaps the insanity was a natural part of the evolution of the Chosen format used on Halaster. It might be that insanity was the only way, at the time, that Halaster's mind could incorporate the vast knowledge and understanding of the arcane arts that he eventually came to possess. So she provided the external opportunity for him to correct his own problem because only he understood just how his insanity "worked." |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 08:36:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Perhaps they were all Chosen of the Goddess of Mysteries -- with Halaster being the earliest model, and Elminster being the "newest." Only, it took those millennia for Mystryl/Mystra to perfect the process.
Sounds likely. But if it were really the case, it would appear like Mystra had been an irresponsible “Mother” to Halaster. If Halaster was her Chosen, how could she let him degenerate so much he became insane? She'd saved Elminster countless times.
Well, this kinda ties into my theory about what I've previously said re: Larloch and his possible "Chosen" status:-
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
You know, it's funny, but thinking further about this [while waiting for programs to compile at work], I started considering Larloch's advanced age when compared to the other Chosen of Mystra.
Theory time:- Perhaps Larloch is a First-Generation Chosen -- a kind of pre-cursor to the current Chosen-model [and Second-Generation versions] that was eventually granted to Elminster, Storm, Khelben, and the rest. Maybe Larloch's reliance on undeath was the ONLY way he could maintain his essence and power at that time, long before the Lady of Mysteries perfected the method of safely ensuring her power could allow for the kind of divinely-inspired immortality that the Second-Generation Chosen now enjoy.
Larloch could, theoretically, represent an earlier version of the Chosen -- which satisfies the long-debated point of just what his relationship is with Mystra and, also, why the events of "Tears So White" had such an impact upon him.
And since "earlier versions" of most things tend to have unexpected problems... it might be simple enough to explain Halaster's insanity as merely the result of being the end-product of an imperfect [when compared to the format of the Chosen used on Elminster] Chosen-creation technique.
She just couldn't "cure" him, as Ed says in the tidbit Wooly quoted above. Maybe she wasn't able to as a result of his earlier possible Chosen status. Or perhaps the insanity was a natural part of the evolution of the Chosen format used on Halaster. It might be that insanity was the only way, at the time, that Halaster's mind could incorporate the vast knowledge and understanding of the arcane arts that he eventually came to possess. So she provided the external opportunity for him to correct his own problem because only he understood just how his insanity "worked."
Interesting theory, Sage. So Mystra did a trial and error in granting immortality to her Chosen. Poor Larloch. He wouldn't have to be a bag of walking bones had Mystra perfected the 'process' earlier. But wait, if Halaster is also a Chosen, then it should follow that his immortality would be lichdom or any form of undeath – like Larloch's case. How come it is much like Elminster's instead? So Mystra sort of perfected the process of granting immortality to her Chosen at first – thus explaining Halaster's immortality – but she 'somehow' failed to when she tried it on Larloch? Hmm, kinda does not make sense... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 08:55:43
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
But wait, if Halaster is also a Chosen, then it should follow that his immortality would be lichdom or any form of undeath – like Larloch's case. How come it is much like Elminster's instead?
That's easy enough to explain. Remember, while in Undermountain, Halaster is essentially ageless. And he gains the benefit of "numerous wish-granted abilities with far-reaching implications ... " [as the Villains' Lorebook notes]. So perhaps part of Halaster's immortal self is maintained by these wish-granted abilities.
quote:
So Mystra sort of perfected the process of granting immortality to her Chosen at first – thus explaining Halaster's immortality – but she 'somehow' failed to when she tried it on Larloch? Hmm, kinda does not make sense...
Well, since we really don't know the particulars of Larloch's ascension as a possible Chosen, we can only speculate on this. One theory, I suppose, could be to suggest that at the time Larloch become a Chosen, he had already embraced lichdom. Or, maybe he didn't want to be so tied to Mystryl/Mystra through the bounds of Chosen-derived immortality. Perhaps Mystryl/Mystra made the "mistake" [as she interprets it] of allowing the early prospective Chosen to "select" whether or not they wished immortality. We know from both Ed-lore and general FR published material, that immortality can exact a tremendous toll on both body and mind. And even with a deity's official backing, some prospective Chosen may not be all that keen on being granted such longevity. Instead, they focus on finding their own path to immortality.
Although, why anyone would choose lichdom over Chosen-derived immortality is another discussion in and of itself. But as I said above, the former is about controlling your own destiny, while the latter ties you, forever more, to a deity. And that simply might be too much of a "negative" for some individuals. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 14:59:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
One theory, I suppose, could be to suggest that at the time Larloch become a Chosen, he had already embraced lichdom. Or, maybe he didn't want to be so tied to Mystryl/Mystra through the bounds of Chosen-derived immortality.
On the second statement I disagree. The essential part of being Mystra's Chosen is to be tied to her forever. Ergo Larloch wouldn't be given any freedom to embrace lichdom. And that's why I agree on your first statement/theory: he must have been already a lich when Mystra asked him to be her Chosen. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 31 Oct 2010 15:01:06 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 17:44:13
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Didn't Larloch meet one of the Sisters while in that "weave corridor" or whatever, and essentially beg her to see silver fire? He couldn't apparently have silver fire because of his status as undead (at least, that's the way I read it at the time), but perhaps he was a different kind of Chosen.
What I mean by this, what if Mystra had two types of Chosen. One with immortality and silver fire (essentially the Selunian side, but not of Selune), and one with a different and more shadowy/undead immortality (Sharran side, but not of Shar). Larloch could be the dark-side Chosen, and Elminster and the Seven Sisters light-side Chosen.
Larloch would therefore not be able to "know" that side of Mystra, but after millenia might long to see it and desire to know more about it.
There are lots of interesting ways that something like this could go. What if there were other "dark side" Chosen of Mystra, with these "shadow magic powers" that are not of Shar? Larloch was the "Shadow King" so it could fit. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 31 Oct 2010 18:32:57 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2010 : 18:28:08
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We have had several versions of Mystryl/Mytra that we know of. They are the consciousness of the Weave, which is a deity-level artifact (it was created by gods, not born of gods)).
Like any overly-complicated machine/program, it breaks down over time. Someone must be around to 'hit the reset button' (anyone familiar with the Wellworld novels, think Nathan Brazil). Taking the computer-program analogy one step further, you have all sorts of hackers trying to break the damn thing on-purpose (Karsus was a super-hacker). Ao and Mystra, after the fall of Netheril, went to a newer and safer interface - I am sure this has happened several times before. It is exactly like installing newer versions of Windows - the old Mystra is the legacy code that allows stuff made with the old GUI to still function, and she bonds with someone else in-order to 'upgrade' (and learn from past mistakes) each time she/it is rebooted.
Ao and the weave need two things to reboot - a Chosen vessel (note that we have seen this several times in canon - Lolth calls it her 'Zedriniset') in which to 'rebirth' the goddess (the actual awareness of the Weave), and someone to hit the damn reset switch. Going back to the Computer analogy, the 'rebooter' is the programmer, and the 'Chosen vessel' is the new memory core.
So Midnight was a 'Chosen vessel', and Elminster (and perhaps Larloch, Halaster, The Terraseer, ect...) are just the switch-hitters (no pun intended). 
Smart gods have at least two chosen - one to reboot the system, and one to be the new receptacle for the god's awareness. Some gods have more then two - and if you were the goddess of Mysteries (who has fallen on a number of occasions already) wouldn't you have plenty of redundancy-systems in-place? I also feel that in case of an emergency, the 'rebooter' can become the vessel (which is what I think may be happening to Elminster, or The Simbul).
Ergo, 'Chosen' are like clones for a god - they are the way in-which they can re-emerge after being destroyed. Sometimes a being won't even know they were chosen for this purpose (poor little Iyachtu Xvim). Note that in the case of Mystra's Chosen (and specifically Elminster) they hold many memories which aren't even theirs; those belong to the goddess, in the event of a reboot).
So there could be a long line ex-Chosen of 'fallen gods' around. We know that a 'simple girl' in Cormyr was the Chosen vessel when Netheril fell, but what hasn't been revealed is who hit the reset button. I have my theories about the 'Godwall' and the Weave, and that's why I lean toward Halaster being one as well (along with Larloch).
Which is why I think that although Halaster and Larloch are wary of each other, they would never move against each other except to defend themselves; in a way, they are like 'brothers' (which doesn't necessarily mean they like each other - its a 'respect thing').
On the other hand, Halaster may be like a 'failed chosen', similar to Sammaster. He may have never gotten a chance to use the reset button (and Larloch may have been his replacement). The 'dark forces' are always striving to corrupt Mytra's chosen in order to prevent another reboot.
Like I keep saying, The War of Light & Darkness never ended - it rages on still, hidden behind mysteries and shadows. 
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
On the second statement I disagree. The essential part of being Mystra's Chosen is to be tied to her forever. Ergo Larloch wouldn't be given any freedom to embrace lichdom. And that's why I agree on your first statement/theory: he must have been already a lich when Mystra asked him to be her Chosen.
HIGHLY disagree. It is far more likely that Larloch was the chosen of Mystra's last incarnation - Mystryl - which means none of of what you are using as the basis for your argument applies.
HIS goddess was dead, so he chose to be as well. The assumption here seems to be that he IS a Chosen, when in fact it is more likely that he is a former chosen. Had he been a Chosen of the Goddess of magic during the time of Netheril, then he would not 'belong' to Mystra at all (there is just a mutual respect, which is why Ed NEVER says Larloch is a Chosen - Ed has ONLY STATED that Larloch is given 'special consideration').
'Chosen' are not 'super-soldiers' - they are a BACK-UP contingency in the event something happens (READ WotSQ). No god in it's right mind would choose a Lich to be a Chosen (except an undead god of course... which could be how we got Orcus...)
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I was thinking more in terms of Ed's "Chauntea IS the land." And given that the Weave itself also forms part of the land and the reality of the Realms as well, I would expect that any type of "rebooting the Weave" scenario would also tend to have an affect upon the land. And that's Chauntea's domain after all.
I mean, we saw what kind of negative impact the collapse of the Weave had upon the land during the Spellplague. I can't imagine Chauntea was too happy about that.
I have my theories about how everything is related in those early events - I really need to rewrite that mythological piece I lost.
Mystra is not precisely the same 'thing' as any of the other gods. She is neither a primordial or a deity (but she IS a 'god'). When I described her situation and how she interacts with the world in Ed's thread awhile back, I was answered with a "precisely!" by Ed. (or something to that affect - I know I was a little taken-aback that his response was so "hit the nail on the head").
Chautea represents Toril. Her situation is strange in that she was Abeir-Toril, and now she is only half of what she was (and yet she is still Chautea). I would hazard to guess that the primordial Earthmother was torn asunder to create Chautea (which means there could be another 'half' of her floating around somewhere). That doesn't violate canon, in that Chauntea and Earthmother are part of the same being, so the info about the WoL&D still stands. That's not really the issue here though.
Anyhow, the way I see it, the Weave was created by Selune to protect the world. The tale about her throwing her energy through Shar and Mystra coming out the other side is just an allegory for what really happened. Shadow tried to destroy the world (or rather, the life upon it), and the weave held it back. If anything, it was actually the other way around (with Shar throwing everything she had at her opponents).
So the Weave isn't the world itself, it is the 'protective field' which nurtures it (almost like a womb, hence 'Cradle of Life'). The energies on the other side of this magical field (artifact composed of energy would be more accurate) would destroy life on Toril (see the other thread where I answered Mr. Misc's query about how the world was changed in 4e). That part is canon - that 'magic' in Realmspace is too potent (for some reason) and the weave acts as a 'Filter' so that mortals can handle it without getting 'burned'.
A LOT of this has to do with what happened during the WoL&D - insanely powerful uber-divine energies were being flung about and it destabilized the sphere (that's the short answer).
At the end of day, what we have is Shar who is hell-bent to destroy all life on (Abeir)-Toril, and Selune who is determined to stop her (even at the cost of much of her own divine energy). That much is fact, not conjecture. Mystra isn't Shar's enemy, she is Shar's roadblock! Mystra is merely the self-awareness of the uber-artifact that is the Weave. The Weave and shadoweave are really just two faces of the whole - it is literally the 'net' that has captured the destructive forces of Shadow and holds them at bay.
And if Mystra is 'the net', the it is Selune who is the fisherman.
Ancient Beginnings:
Going back to the OP - the Terraseer was probably the Chosen of the original 'god of magic' in the Realms, which may or may not have been Lurue (I am actually not seeing Lurue in this role - it is more like a primal spirit of magic itself, rather then the embodiment of The Weave).
If I really wanted to go out on a limb here, I would say EACH of the Creator Races had their own deity of the Weave, and in-turn each of them stepped-aside (or were destroyed) for the next (which is why the humans are the final 'Creator Race', and why they are also "the Race of Destiny"). The Terraseer may have served a 'scaley god', who took the place of a slimey god of magic worshipped by the Batrachi.
Hmmmm... Batrachi.... Baatezu....
Nahhhhh... that one doesn't even make sense.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2010 19:14:21 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2010 : 01:15:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
What I mean by this, what if Mystra had two types of Chosen. One with immortality and silver fire (essentially the Selunian side, but not of Selune), and one with a different and more shadowy/undead immortality (Sharran side, but not of Shar). Larloch could be the dark-side Chosen, and Elminster and the Seven Sisters light-side Chosen.
Interesting. It can be supported by the fact that Mystra does not care of alignments as long as more and more people utilize the Art. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 02 Nov 2010 03:42:17 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 11:23:51
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quote:
The Sage
One theory, I suppose, could be to suggest that at the time Larloch become a Chosen, he had already embraced lichdom. Or, maybe he didn't want to be so tied to Mystryl/Mystra through the bounds of Chosen-derived immortality.
Although, why anyone would choose lichdom over Chosen-derived immortality is another discussion in and of itself. But as I said above, the former is about controlling your own destiny, while the latter ties you, forever more, to a deity. And that simply might be too much of a "negative" for some individuals.
I agree with you (and dennis), Sage ...
Whatever Larloch has become, he started off as an arcanist of Netheril (probably also an archmage, though I don't know if he floated his own mountain-city; he certainly had to be archmage-xplevel to become a lich). Arcanists of Netheril were a superbly privileged and arrogant lot. They believed themselves to be the enlightened preeminent elite of Netheril, and thus of course, of all Faerûn. They recognized the power of the gods (and tolerated their priests) but viewed it all as some kind of perversion of arcane magic. They were convinced the gods had ascended by using magic and so mortal arcanists (the elite of Netheril and of the world!) could ultimately do the same - except that the gods (Mystryl in particular, perhaps) had imposed "rules" and restrictions to prevent worthies from challenging or displacing them. The goal of attaining sufficient mastery of magic to ascend into immortality and then godhood was a driving force in the careers of many arcanists young and old.
In the mind of the typical Netherese arcanist, magic is just a tool, and you study your Nether Scrolls and practice and research on expendable peasants and you eat your vitamins until one day you are teh utter powerful uberpwnage and you can assert your true rightful place among the gods. Karsus was the iconic example of this, using his raw magical cajones to take what he wanted and bully himself into the divine ranks - arguably he did succeed, albeit his success was tragically flawed and momentary. The point is that if Karsus hadn't done it (and screwed everything up) then eventually some other arcanist (perhaps even Larloch?) would have been bold and arrogant enough to try it anyhow. Possibly with greater success.
So back to Larloch ... he would have had his own agenda, and he would have absolutely preferred to stubbornly indomitably govern his own immortal destiny (as a Lich*) - rather than being used as little more than a divine mouthpiece and energy reservoir to snack on during emergencies. No proper Netherese arcanist would ever sully himself by being a lackey to the gods like those stupid uneducated lowly priests.**
* Larloch may indeed be the very first Lich. He may have invented Lichery from scratch as his personal method of cheating death. If so, it's possible he may have been the prototype and not really understood the implications until it was too late. Assuming he was as bold, arrogant, and self-righteous as his contemporaries.
** Interestingly, this magocratic elitism isn't exactly prevalent in modern Shade. Perhaps the Shadovar have reflected upon the error of their ways since the fall of Netheril/Mystryl. Perhaps Shade's arcanists have somehow accepted Shar - willingly, unwillingly, whatever - possibly a survival pact in which they gained access to the Shadow Weave, or possibly just to appease and control the unruly masses the same easy way they always did in Netheril. Perhaps Shar was the only deity outside of the Nine Hells who would respond to Shade's prayers.
Perhaps, probably, as the millennia passed, Larloch would evolve a less absolute viewpoint. He's had a lot of time to mature. Particularly after (un)living through the adminstrations of three (or is it four?) goddesses of magic. He and his personality and purpose would gradually but inexorably change, and (smart and curious boy that he is) he would find himself reassessing his relationship with divine magic every few lifetimes. (C'mon! No ancient Archlich can resist the secrets of priest magic forever.)
For all I know, he might in fact be a unique Mystran priest of sorts, or Mystra saved him from insanity/boredom and grants him "immortality" by using/fueling his passion for magic to somehow anchor his essence to her Weave (a possible explanation to why Larloch has never drifted away to distant planes, or gotten irrevocably "lost" on some incomprehensible demilichy transcendance, or discovered some other afterlife). For all I know, Mystra/Midnight uses Larloch as some kind of unliving bridge to interact with Kelemvor without drawing attention.
An interesting thought: what if Larloch has somehow used the Weave itself as his lich phylactery? Or a mythallar, or some kind of impossible hybrid between the two? Larloch may even be able to maintain, repair, or reconfigure the Weave (as needed by himself or by Mystra) - something he can only do by accessing magical power entirely outside the goddess's influence. By being semi-independent of the Weave he can be largely unaffected when it fails. Maybe Larloch enjoys a private relationship with the sentient Weave which Mystra does not? Maybe he builds/grows mini-Weaves in his lab and always carries a bunch around to reshape or heal the Weave as needed? Or maybe he can actually punch or tear holes in the Weave with his bare skeletal hands to disrupt magic, or he regularly steals wailing Weave scraps to sustain his magic with stolen divine energy? Who knows what kinds of wonderful trouble Larloch gets into whenever a goddess of magic is absent for a while?
Their relationship is said to be "special", and I suspect it's probably symbiotic - but I doubt that he's one of her Chosen. Mystra is dead; so is Larloch, but he's still paying his bills. So he apparently has other means to sustain himself without magic and the weave to draw from; he may have indeed realized his ancient abandoned dream of commanding his own fate without kneeling before a divine inferior.
Just throwing some bones around. I really don't actually know all that much about Larloch, beyond what I've read online. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Nov 2010 14:24:59 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 18:31:03
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There are Liches FAR older then Larloch. He may be the oldest human Lich (but I could easily be wrong on that count). Tan Chin is definitely older, although theoretically he could have become a Lich much later then suspected. His particular form of lichdom, however, is more 'common' (if that word can even be applied to this subject) on a another world, and not something Torillian Liches are known for (although there is a Shoon Lich who appears to have accidentally replicated this feat). There is also the question weather the original Shou interlopers were entirely 'human' (there were subtle differences, but most have been washed-away by time and interbreeding). I only bring this up because at some point during 'evolution' (magical and natural) there seems to be a cut-off point when something is no longer considered 'human'; there are MANY examples in D&D of that, but the most glaring one are the Gith and their myriad sub-species. The Shou may have been human in the same way the Shades are human (in other words, derived from human stock).
I digress, but my point is if you want to split hairs it may be possible to say that Larloch was the first entirely human person on Toril to become a Lich (if you really wanted to force the issue). I still think Iouluam did it first, though (without checking sources).
However, even if he is the oldest (mind you, there are at least three other Netherease Archliches we know of in canon), I still doubt he 'invented' the process. If anything, it was an existing ritual he found in a Nether Scroll* that he was able to adapt to his huma physiology.
*Note - I would think anything having to do with the creation of Liches would require some small amount of Shadow-magic, and would NOT be something Arcane Mages would normally pursue (which is why each Lich must recreate the process for himself - it is considered 'forbidden magic' by most sane folk).
This is why I think there was a sub-set of scrolls known as The Dark Scales that dealt specifically with Shadow-magic. The original goal of the Ba'etith was to gather together ALL forms of 'strange' magic (in other words, magic that they themselves weren't employing). In most of the lore we have seen only arcane magic is discussed, but to go back to the original premise there should be scrolls that cover non-arcane magic as well (like Rune Magic, or Channeling). The Creator Races would have had access to magic that was possibly pre-Weave, and it would be interesting to learn more about some of those other types the scrolls should cover.
Which is why guys like the Terraseer and the Sojournor are beyond 'Uber' - they have access to magical lore no-one else has, not even Chosen. Larloch can only dream of attaining that knowledge of Unearthed Arcana. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Nov 2010 00:04:03 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 23:14:18
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You're probably right; again I qualify my statement that I really don't know all that much about Larloch.
Ioulum (creator of Congenio's Pebbles aka Ioun Stones?) liched as well?
It's been ~10y since I last read through Arcane Ages: Netheril, time to skim it again I suppose. Where else is Larloch mentioned? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 04:03:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which is why guys like the Terraseer and the Sojournor are beyond 'Uber' - they have access to magical lore no-one else has, not even Chosen. Larloch can only dream of attaining that knowledge of Unearthed Arcana.
Larloch invented and placed a plethora of portals all around Toril; and it's easy to imagine that those 'unknown schemes' Ed talked about include Larloch's portals in various worlds. Hence, he must have learned other non-Torilain sources of magic and experimented with them. That's a possible explanation for his virtually unscathed status after the SP.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Maybe he builds/grows mini-Weaves in his lab and always carries a bunch around to reshape or heal the Weave as needed?
Hmm, I like that idea. If he does have mini-Weaves, I think he'd rather put them in a demiplane, pocket dimension, or some unknown unpopulated world so as not to draw any unwanted attention from not a few enemies. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 00:20:12
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I don't think it is ever said anywhere that Laroch created any portals (although he may have made a few himself). The portals that Larloch spends most of his time 'watching over' are part of The Road of Stars and Shadows, and is FAR more ancient then Netheril or Imaskar (but both have contributed to it).
Note that Ed has stated that Larloch 'appends' these portals so that they are 'augmented' in ways only he is privy to. Also note that in Elminster's Daughter the Sages of Candlekeep tell a woman that Chosen of Mystra do exactly that.
The same exact thing that Ed has said Larloch does.
As for the 'Weave in my pocket' theory - it sounds pretty cool. I read somewhere just last night (SotM?) that there was a device (stones?) that could 'carry' a magic-dead zone within it, like a portable anti-magic field. In retrospect, if those dead zones are really Shadoweave, then it should be entirely possibly to do something similar with the weave.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Ioulum (creator of Congenio's Pebbles aka Ioun Stones?) liched as well?
It's been ~10y since I last read through Arcane Ages: Netheril, time to skim it again I suppose. Where else is Larloch mentioned?
Three 'living' Netherease Liches: Larloch, Iouluam (NOT Ioun, who was another Netherease Archmage), and Aumvor the Undying. Note that all three used completely different methods to achieve lichdom (Iouluam merged with an Elder Brain and took the 'psionic route', and Aumvor created spells which allowed him to drain others 'lifeforce').
The Fourth is the ghost of a lich (go figure that one out): Lady Saharel, who dwells in Spellgaurd (IIRC, her ghostly existence happened in a novel - Avatar I think).
Also, Wulgreth was spontaneously transformed into a lich by Karsus, although we don't know if he was Netherease, but his Lichdom most-likely pre-dated Larloch's. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Nov 2010 00:20:50 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 00:40:37
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| I remember Wulgreth. A big lump of Heavy Magic landing on you from orbit will do that, I suppose. I would speculate Heavy Magic is a physical item which contains or generates a wild-magic zone, similar to your dead-magic zone stone, though I've read your posts about it containing links to or fragments of Shadow Weave, Markus. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 03:43:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't think it is ever said anywhere that Laroch created any portals (although he may have made a few himself). The portals that Larloch spends most of his time 'watching over' are part of The Road of Stars and Shadows, and is FAR more ancient then Netheril or Imaskar (but both have contributed to it).
Note that Ed has stated that Larloch 'appends' these portals so that they are 'augmented' in ways only he is privy to. Also note that in Elminster's Daughter the Sages of Candlekeep tell a woman that Chosen of Mystra do exactly that.
It hardly matters whether he himself created the portals, or he just stole or discovered it. The fact that he HAS these portals remains. And if they originally didn't have the capabilities to translate him to other worlds, with the kind of power he possesses and the mastery of The Art he's got, it's easy to assume that he'd long ago AUGMENTED the magical capabilities of these portals, enough to enable him to visit other worlds, learn their systems of magic, and use them for his own nefarious scheming. And as I mentioned, it's a rather plausible reason why he was in a no-scratch status when and after SP devastated Toril. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 20:08:41
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Not being facetious or anything, but did you read precisely what I wrote?
Ed has stated in two separate places that Larloch is doing something that elsewhere he has stated the Chosen are doing. That doesn't necessarily mean Larloch is a chosen, but it does imply they are at least working toward the same ends.
And in the Secrets of the magister, Ed specifically says that Mystra considers the Road of Stars & Shadows (Toril's portal-network) "Distortions in the Weave" (SotM, pg.127).
Distortions - like a bubble in a tire (which are weak-spots that can 'blow-out' at any time).
Ed has lain a long road of clues for us to follow - sometimes you just have to realize its all connected to see 'the big picture'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 22:58:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What if living Larloch was a chosen of Mystryl? Could he have become a Lich after Karsus' folly? If that defies his timeline, perhaps he was given warning and became a lich so he could continue his work?
Just because he is a lich now does not preclude the fact he could have been a living Chosen of Mystryl at some point.
Maybe this is the meaning behind Tears so White - its not experiencing that which he can not have, but rather experiencing that which he has lost.
What if he was Mystryl's Elminster? What if he 'held it together' the last time the weave collapsed? This would give him a special place of honor in 'the new order'.
This is a very interesting thought Markustay. I'm totally falling in love with this notion :) |
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spadehammerfist
Acolyte
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2010 : 21:09:42
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| I don't think this topic has quite stayed on track, don't you all love talking about Larloch a lot. Personally, I think that the story of the Terraseer is much more interesting. Only one of the 50 Sarruhk liches of Oreme, who used to rule half the world and seemed to have influenced the development of the Netheril empire, ensured that certain parts of it survived by warning them (including I suppose Larloch), and seems to have been instrumental in the direction of magic in the Realms - through the Golden Skins of the World Serpent - or the Nether Scrolls as the ignorant of you. What else has this ancient plotter been involved in disguised as all sorts of people? Stirring up in the elven realms, encouraging summoning wizards in Myth Adofeor (Hellgate), etc, etc? Ideas anyone? |
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spadehammerfist
Acolyte
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2010 : 09:24:29
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hello, is there anyone out there?
the Terraseer is someone who really fascinates me, does anyone have any info on what is happening with him and his mates these days? How were they affected by the SpellBlueFireStormDebacle? I actually think that their understanding of magic is so total (Be'atith (sp) and Nether Scrolls...) that either that they already knew how to adapt, or they had adapted to Mystra and the Weave in the first place. Maybe now without those constraints they can return to magics they remember from ancient times!? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 02:18:35
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It doesn't seem there is much about him, aside from the fact he tried to stear the Netherease, for whatever reason.
The facts are so vague ANY sort of conjecture could be done.
As for me, I think he was something similar to Larloch (yes, mentioning HIM again) and Elminster - he was THE Chosen of the goddess of magic that reigned during 'his time'.
Note that Larloch has always been at least as powerful as a demigod, and Elminster is now consider an 'Exarch' (which is the new 4e over-term for all those not-quite gods, like the Chosen). Following this line of reasoning, that means the Terraseer should be an Exarch too (heck, he is FAR older then most gods!) Also, as a point-of-order, Chosen being 'demi-powers' is nothing new - Elminster is specifically called a 'demi-god' in 1e Kara-Tur lore.
Anyhow, I'm not sure what, if anything, he would 'be up to now'. If I am right, and all three are ex-Chosen of magical goddesses (and there might even be several more out there we are unaware of), then each could somehow have 'earned' a special type of unique immortality.
They are 'Watchers'.
Might seem a bit 'far fetched', but seriously, Elminster is the ONLY mortal Ao ever bothered to be willing to have a conversation with. We are talking about the God of gods, having a very plain conversation with The old Sage. That alone should lead us to believe that Elminster is more then 'just a Chosen', he is THE Chosen, and I feel Larloch and perhaps the Terraseer were his predecessors.
Now, what do you do if you have all the time in the world, but you yourself are from a time long gone? You would try to make-up for the mistakes of the past, and be sure they never happen again. Toril is important somehow in 'the greater scheme of things' in the multiverse, and it needs to be 'protected' - sometimes from itself - at all costs.
THAT is what I think the Terraseer was and is doing, and probably Larloch... and maybe Elminster soon enough. we shall see with that one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Dec 2010 08:23:20 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 03:46:44
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Hmm, I don't know. I really don't like the idea that anything above a certain power level is an Exarch.
With respect to Larloch, I don't like the idea of him being a former chosen of Mystryl in the same way that Elminster and company are/were Chosen of Mystra. I do kind of like my idea that Larloch could have been a different kind of Chosen, though, one representing the "Sharran half" of Mystra (where El and co. would be "Selune-side"). Or even that he's just a really immensely powerful being by his own hand.
After all, Larloch grew up in a culture that didn't really view the deities as gods in the same sense that actual worshippers believe in the gods. They believed that the deities were just immensely powerful beings. And as far as things go in the "reality" of D&D, it's hard to argue with that philosophy. Mortals have ascended, and deities do die (after a fashion), so the only real problem with Karsus' plan was that he didn't fully understand what grabbing that much power would mean (or that he really should've chosen another deity to siphon from).
As far as the Terraseer, I doubt that he was a Chosen of a scaly deity of magic or of Mystryl. Just doesn't seem to fit, either way. Granted, the Terraseer was doing exactly what Mystryl would've liked (i.e. spreading and fostering magic), but it doesn't necessarily follow that he was doing it for Her. I prefer to think that he was just a really powerful scaly in his own day, and lichdom (along with his fellow Sarrukh lich-partners) is probably just part of a really long-reaching plan that may not have been revealed even in 4E.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 06:33:19
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Being long-lived or immortal does not automatically qualify as or require being some sort of divine Chosen.
Another Candlekeep scroll, Arthindol the Terraseer. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 09:57:39
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| The Realms is already fraught with "active" uber-powerful characters. It's just right - at least for now - to keep The Teraseer taking the "Watcher's" role. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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spadehammerfist
Acolyte
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 13:18:56
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I'm sorry (and I've read the Arthindol the Terraseer scroll) but I don't buy the idea that he is some kind of benign watcher or meddler like Elminster. My idea is that all the interventions and manipulations are part of a plan to return the Sarrukh to their former glory, and up to this point they have not been able to realise this goal.
It is interesting that Arthindol has been identified as one of the Kings of Oreme, perhaps there are others that have really been Sarrukh meddlers in disguise? Plus why is it necessary that the Terraseer is a rogue Lich King of Oreme, perhaps they don't just take turns in being awake but also turns in going out in the world and continuing the master plan. Also it occurs to me that they are not really asleep but dormant and fully aware of what their active compatriot is doing...
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 15:15:53
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The Sarrukh god was "The World Serpent" and not "Mystryl".
As a matter of fact, the true name of the Nether Scrolls was "Thee Golden Skins of the World Serpent", and not "The Golden Skins of Mystryl". It was the Netherese who renamed it. Thus, this fact could very much claim the notion that the Terraseer was not a chosen/exarch.
So the Netherscrolls are like a rip-off of "TGSOTWS".
Which points us to a more interesting part as to how TGSOTWS was named. It could point out that Mystryl was a part of The World Serpent/or maybe an offspring, perhaps Mystryl was the skin of the World Serpent that it shedded eons ago, Shar, Selune and the others that were created by Ao also came from the World Serpent's skin. Perhaps Ao and the World Serpent have a relationship. Let's say, the World Serpent is Ao's pet, or some kind of culture pet in which it's parts are soon going to be used to create gods. |
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Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 01 Jan 2011 07:57:28 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 17:17:48
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Yes, the sarrukh god was the World Serpent. However, that doesn't mean that a) a select group of sarrukh mages might not have adopted Mystryl as their patrons, a heretical secret cult if you will; or b) that the World Serpent was not a gestalt deity embodying Chauntea, Mystryl, Shar, Selûne and others as a unified personality, perhaps similar to the concept of the Adama. I actually favor that idea myself. We know of lots of scalyfolk gods that started out as aspects of the World Serpent and fragmented off into distinct, separate entities.
Mystryl was only the human conception of the god of magic. To the Fey she was probably known as Lurue. To the aquatic creator race she may have been some kind of mystic silver jellyfish whose tendrils are the strands of the Weave. To the Aearee she may have been a silver crane or ibis, or perhaps an aspect of Syranita.
Regardless, whether Mystryl reached out to the Ba'etith as a distinct entity, or as an aspect of the World Serpent, it doesn't change the fact that the Weave was real, and that she was a native goddess of Toril. As such, the Ba'etith could have had knowledge of her, would in fact most certainly have had some conception of her through their inquiries into the nature of magic, and Mystryl could easily have taught them magic, influenced them, urged them to pass on the knowledge, and even granted them powers or special magics akin to that of the Magister or her Chosen.
The Ba'etith were a forward thinking, trans-generational and trans-racial magical brotherhood. They were not sarrukh chauvinists; they spread the knowledge of magic to the Batrachi and the Aearee in turn. They arguably placed the Nether Scrolls where humans could "discover' them. They were charitable in their outlook, indicating a devotion, not to any one race or culture, but to the Art itself.
I am thoroughly convinced that the Ba'etith were doing the work of Mystryl (or the World Serpent, as they may have conceived her), and may have been early versions of Chosen or Magisters, or something along those lines. |
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spadehammerfist
Acolyte
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 19:46:21
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I'm not sure I can agree with the Ba'etith as a benevolent organisation with Mystryl as their patron (even as a scaly perception of her). There is nothing benevolent in the culture of the Sarrukh! Remember, they had an aspect of the diverged World Serpent responsible for them being able to accept non-scalykind to even be sacrificed in the same way as scalykind! All other races were either after them or creatures they themselves created. They were there first and other races like the Aeree and Batrachi became Creator Races after, i.e. learning from the Sarrukh, with the Ba'etith being the organisation that bridged those races. I see this organisation as being controlled by the Sarrukh, going to each successive race with technological, mystical and magical knowledge, but as crumbs from the masters' table, not the answers to everything. These 'crumbs' were deliberately given to encourage certain steps in knowledge, maybe even restricting these lesser races to areas the Sarrukh wanted to research themselves. The Batrachi got to research aquatic and limbo dwelling creatures; the Aeree got to research aerial and anti-dragon creatures; but then the greatest find of the Sarrukh has been humans, who they can give successive 'projects' to. Due to the humans' adaptability and curiousity, they are the perfect guinea pigs. The Sarrukh has just changed the way they control lesser creatures, that's all...
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 20:05:11
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What if the sarrukh viewed their gods merely as powerful entities and not as "gods" in the way we think of that word?
And somehow, through the Terraseer, that philosophy was translated to the Netherese mage upper class?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 00:13:22
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| You made it sound as though the Terraseer "taught" the Netherese magic, or so it seems to me. Even without his influence, the Netherese, upon the birth of the archwizards and their rise to power, would have still been haughty enough to defy the gods, to view them as mere wizards possessing unique and potent powers. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 05:33:13
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I think you are confusing the Ba'etith with all sarrukh. Of course the sarrukh were not kindly. But the Ba'etith do not represent the sarrukh. The Ba'etith had sarrukh members. But the Ba'etith had batrachi and aearee members over time. The purpose of the Ba'etith was to develop, preserve and spread knowledge of magic. They did not seek to keep it solely for the sarrukh. In that sense they were indeed a charitable organization. Magic boosters if you will. A magical fraternity not unlike the Rotarians or the Shriners.
The agenda of the Ba'etith is well in-line with Mystryl/Mystra's agenda to spread and encourage the use of magic. And I somewhat suspect it has not died out as an institution but may have survived to this day, though perhaps under another name.
Can you think of any secret organizations run by chosen of Mystra that might fit the bill? |
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The Terraseer
