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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 19:20:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I am not going to enter a discussion with you over this Brace, but....
But? Oh, ok...
quote:
Your other example if an easily verified fact/non-fact without any room for variables unless it is in the persons own campaign and therefore correct there. The two examples are very different.
You are wrong, and I am right. I will use the the quote from you, above, to prove this.
sfdragon's statement:
"4e threw out all the old lore"
My rebuttal: "That is not true."
1e lore: The Stormhorn mountains lie north of Cormyr.
4e lore: The Stormhorn mountains lie north of Cormyr.
Conclusion: sfdragon's statement was incorrect, "easily verified without any room for variables".
Opinion: Perpetuating ideas like sfdragon's is incendiary; those of us who would like to see the "edition hate" abate will do so on the merit of facts, nor interweb fictions.
Thank you for your support. |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 19:38:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Further, if a poster at Candlekeep stated that 4e "through out all the old lore"; I think the onus would fall upon the other scribes at the 'Keep to assure this person that all previous lore had not been thrown out.
Not really. It would be disingenuous for anyone not truly well versed in 4E lore to presume to correct such an opinion. And as other scribes have already mentioned, such explanations are often more counter-productive (due to the inherent topic creep and feelings getting involved) than simply ignoring such falsehoods. Now, if you wish to take this up with sfdragon in a PM discussion, go right ahead! |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 19:48:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
There is a significant difference between an informed opinion and blanket, false statements.
Exactly. You are insulting the intelligence of the average scribe here by stating that they cannot see the difference. We really don't need 'thought police' to protect us from every falsehood uttered by every scribe.quote:
If a poster on these fora stated: "The Azoun IV of Cormyr was succeeded by Bjork, the One True Goddess of Iceland," that would be false, and I hope that scribes here would take that poster to task.
Again, there would be no need. A statement like that is so blatantly false that at worst the average scribe would shake his head and laugh it off. A simple correction would suffice without the "taking to task" you propose. |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 19:52:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Further, if a poster at Candlekeep stated that 4e "through out all the old lore"; I think the onus would fall upon the other scribes at the 'Keep to assure this person that all previous lore had not been thrown out.
Not really. It would be disingenuous for anyone not truly well versed in 4E lore to presume to correct such an opinion. And as other scribes have already mentioned, such explanations are often more counter-productive (due to the inherent topic creep and feelings getting involved) than simply ignoring such falsehoods. Now, if you wish to take this up with sfdragon in a PM discussion, go right ahead!
You are incorrect Kyrene. Being fully versed in 4e lore is not required to invalidate the statement:
"4e threw out all old lore."
(Please review the example above.)
In fact, one need only be aware of *one* bit of lore extant in 4e which appeared in a prior edition to invalidate that statement.
I'll not diverge further from the topic of this thread, save to ask:
Kyrene, do you believe that Candlekeep should be a source of disinformation on the Forgotten Realms?
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
You are wrong, and I am right.
The 'Keep is not about scoring points, Brace. If that is what you think this place is for, I suggest you find happier hunting grounds.quote:
Opinion: Perpetuating ideas like sfdragon's is incendiary; those of us who would like to see the "edition hate" abate will do so on the merit of facts, nor interweb fictions.
Not any more incendiary than valuing one's own opinions more than common courtesy. If you truly valued what you claim, you would simply have corrected sfdragon's ill-formed opinion in your first post and not tried to start another cycle of 'crying wolf' and pitting your opinions against that of other scribes simply to 'score' some personal 'victory' points. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:04:45
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And here we see the route cause of so many aspects of the edition wars, coming back into play: people being disrespectful of each other's opinions. That needs to stop.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And here we see the route cause of so many aspects of the edition wars, coming back into play: people being disrespectful of each other's opinions. That needs to stop.
Agreed. Respecting others opinions is tantamount to civilized debate. However, failing to correct fallacious statements of fact is deleterious to debate.
Kyrene, you failed to answer my query with your reply above.
Kyrene, do you believe that Candlekeep should be a source of disinformation on the Forgotten Realms? |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:11:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Kyrene, do you believe that Candlekeep should be a source of disinformation on the Forgotten Realms?
As shocking as this may sound: Yes, if the constant correcting would be at the cost of the other scribes (without who's valued input this place would not be what it is) here.
You did not even attempt to correct sfdragon's opinion, but rather called for a 'witch hunt'. Just how productive to fostering lore of the Realms is that exactly?
Now, get off your agenda and start practicing what you're preaching. |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:15:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Agreed. Respecting others opinions is tantamount to civilized debate. However, failing to correct fallacious statements of fact is deleterious to debate.
Why is it always a debate and 'scoring points' with you Brace?quote:
Kyrene, you failed to answer my query with your reply above.
No, I was just busy replying. Keep your panties on Doris!  |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:18:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
*snip*
Kyrene, do you believe that Candlekeep should be a source of disinformation on the Forgotten Realms?
"Disinformation"?
I, for one, rest easy knowing that you'll stamp out that conspiracy. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:18:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
The 'Keep is not about scoring points, Brace. If that is what you think this place is for, I suggest you find happier hunting grounds.
Kyrene, did you intend to direct this at Jorkens? If you follow the thread, you are sure to note that I was replying to a statement made by him, where he insists that my assessment of the extance of lore was incorrect. Though I am unfamiliar with a "point system", if someone was trying to score one, it may have been him... |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:22:58
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On the subject of one's opinions vs. facts, I think the poster of what they feel should post that. In the example used, it'd be better for the poster to say "I feel or IMO 4E Realms threw out all the old lore." instead of saying "4E Realms threw out all the old lore." as if it were a fact. To many scribes who go through these scrolls, it's pretty evident that the second phrase is an opinion but to someone new or not well versed, it could seem as it were fact.
Communication is key in areas where facts and opinions can seem to go hand-in-hand. And I would post something to address the phrase, something akin to "Well, sure the 100 year time jump makes alot of the older lore irrelevent but it still remains apart of the Realms past and is there for vaild." which is a fact.
Edit: Thanks for the help on the previous post Wooly!  |
Edited by - Diffan on 18 Jul 2010 20:25:23 |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:25:25
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@capnvan
Your welcome, thank you for your support.
@Kyrene
If it was unclear that I *did* correct sfragons erroneous claims, I quote myself below. Read it slowly and carefully. Twice, if need be.
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Further, if a poster at Candlekeep stated that 4e "through out all the old lore"; I think the onus would fall upon the other scribes at the 'Keep to assure this person that all previous lore had not been thrown out.
Once more, with relevant section in bold:
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Further, if a poster at Candlekeep stated that 4e "through out all the old lore"; I think the onus would fall upon the other scribes at the 'Keep to assure this person that all previous lore had not been thrown out.
If it is not abundantly clear that I am "practicing what I am preaching", I hope it is now.
Now, where are those witches you were referring to...?
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Edited by - Brace Cormaeril on 18 Jul 2010 20:27:32 |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:25:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Kyrene, did you intend to direct this at Jorkens?
No. I quoted you, not him. Don't try to play the 'victim' card here. |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:32:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Kyrene, did you intend to direct this at Jorkens?
No. I quoted you, not him. Don't try to play the 'victim' card here.
Then I'll assume that this imaginary game you are referring to is a spectator sport. |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:32:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Further, if a poster at Candlekeep stated that 4e "through out all the old lore"; I think the onus would fall upon the other scribes at the 'Keep to assure this person that all previous lore had not been thrown out.
Allow me to also add some bold for emphasis. How disingenuous of you to emphasise only that which might bolster your next 'point' in this endless debate you are so involved in. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:33:49
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And I would argue that the location of a mountain range is NOT 'lore' - it is a matter of setting geography.
Much of which change... I understand why that's hard to see, on that new 'map'. 
Lore revolves around NPCs - you know, like almost all the ones that died with the release of 4e.
Just a matter of perspective, is all. Jorkens is correct, in that you can't change the way someone sees things. When the designers call 4eFR a 'new setting' in podcasts, then I must agree with those most esteemed designers, and consider 4eFR a completely different setting.
See? Its easy to twist things any which way - I'm not saying I'm right, or anyone is right - everyone is going to see this matter differently.
Ergo, arguing is completely pointless.
I used to have arguments with Mr.Misc that were almost as bad as these newer ones going on here, but after awhile we both realized we had far more in common then we disagreed on. 4e isn't all 'shiney goodness', and it isn't all crap, either. I didn't care for a lot that happened with 3e (Shades, the Cosmology, ect), but I was able to ignore those aspects and enjoy the good things 3e brought us (a plethora of new lore). I also didn't like the ToT, and ignored much of that.
I can do the same with 4e, but I'm not going to change my mind about liking what was done. In 3e, if I needed to look something up about a certain settlement, and the only info was in 1e/2e sources, then there was no problem. This is no longer the case - I can't even get reliable info on a lot of the questions I have regarding the changes. For the first time ever, I find myself incapable of writing on particular FR subject (which is why I've changed the focus of my CKC article three times already).
Some of us just can't understand why you don't see that point Brace - maybe not all that lore was wiped-out, but a good enough chunk of it to upset many people. As a DM, it matters to me not - I used NPCs, modules, and even locales from other settings in my FR all the time, but as a fan of the setting, I can't help but be a little bitter.
To many of us, it was like watching a really great 4-hour movie, and 5 minutes before the end the film runs out, and we are told it will never be finished.
However, they are making another movie, and some of the characters 'might be' related to some of those in the first film.
You know why Prince Caspian flopped after Narnia's success? Because it had almost nothing to do with the first film. Sure, the setting was the same, and there were a couple of cameos, but the audience's immersion was lost. FR was more then just a D&D setting to many of us - it was a story, or rather, and endless number of stories, nearly all of which will now never get finished now.
Anyway, I didn't want to try and go and convince you one last time, especially after I just said these kinds of arguments are pointless. Lets just agree to disagree, okay?
And lets get back to creating lore to link the gaps.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
On the subject of one's opinions vs. facts, I think the poster of what they feel should post that. In the example used, it'd be better for the poster to say "I feel or IMO 4E Realms threw out all the old lore." instead of saying "4E Realms threw out all the old lore." as if it were a fact. To many scribes who go through these scrolls, it's pretty evident that the second phrase is an opinion but to someone new or not well versed, it could seem as it were fact.
Anytime any human being speaks, everything that comes out of their mouth are 'facts' tainted with their own perspectives. Ergo, there is no such thing as a 'universal truth', and anyone who reads what someone else wrote (on the internet!) and believes it to be the absolute truth is an idiot. One should always subconsciously add the 'IMO' to ANYTHING anyone says. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Jul 2010 20:47:29 |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:35:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Further, if a poster at Candlekeep stated that 4e "through out all the old lore"; I think the onus would fall upon the other scribes at the 'Keep to assure this person that all previous lore had not been thrown out.
Allow me to also add some bold for emphasis. How disingenuous of you to emphasise only that which might bolster your next 'point' in this endless debate you are so involved in.
That's not disingenuous at all, Kyrene. I called out the error. I called for other scribes to call out such errors. It's stated in plain English. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:35:28
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'Threw out all the old lore' is rhetorical exaggeration, so it's not a matter of fallacy. But I think (in a lot of contexts, anyway) it's one of those tempting (for some) exaggerations that confuses real attempts at communication, and enables the go-nowhere type of polarized non-discussion for those wanting a fight. It distracts from the more complex and interesting shift of design and publication philosophies that actually happened.
But nothing needs to be 'done' about exaggeration, I just don't think it works too often in this kind of forum for its own rhetorical purposes. |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:36:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Kyrene, did you intend to direct this at Jorkens?
No. I quoted you, not him. Don't try to play the 'victim' card here.
Then I'll assume that this imaginary game you are referring to is a spectator sport.
It is if you're trying to make it one. It was actually just a saying often used, nothing more. Perhaps it didn't translate well, as it may be a local [South African] saying you're not familiar with. |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Some of us just can't understand why you don't see that point Brace - maybe not all that lore was wiped-out, but a good enough chunk of it to upset many people. As a DM, it matters to me not - I used NPCs, modules, and even locales from other settings in my FR all the time, but as a fan of the setting, I can't help but be a little bitter.
Markus:
Which is it? All lore was "wiped out", or a "good chunk of it was"?
(As soon as I called out sfdragons error, I knew a semantic argument re: the definition of 'lore' would emerge..)
1e (NPC) lore: Azoun IV was King of Cormyr until his death in 1371DR
4e (NPC) lore: Azoun IV was King of Cormyr until his death in 1371DR |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:41:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
'Threw out all the old lore' is rhetorical exaggeration, so it's not a matter of fallacy. But I think (in a lot of contexts, anyway) it's one of those tempting (for some) exaggerations that confuses real attempts at communication, and enables the go-nowhere type of polarized non-discussion for those wanting a fight. It distracts from the more complex and interesting shift of design and publication philosophies that actually happened.
But nothing needs to be 'done' about exaggeration, I just don't think it works too often in this kind of forum for its own rhetorical purposes.
Yes, thank you Faraer.
Edit: sfdragon comment is a "Fallacy of Generalization" |
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Edited by - Brace Cormaeril on 18 Jul 2010 20:49:03 |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:48:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Further, if a poster at Candlekeep stated that 4e "through out all the old lore"; I think the onus would fall upon the other scribes at the 'Keep to assure this person that all previous lore had not been thrown out.
Allow me to also add some bold for emphasis. How disingenuous of you to emphasise only that which might bolster your next 'point' in this endless debate you are so involved in.
That's not disingenuous at all, Kyrene. I called out the error. I called for other scribes to call out such errors. It's stated in plain English.
Yes, very plain English. Thanks for agreeing with me about your call for a 'witch hunt'. |
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:48:50
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| Ok Brace, you won. Jet another winners badge on your account. Now can we stop this nonsense? |
Away with powergaming propaganda! | I <3 Powergaming!
Don't feed the trolls. Especially the clever ones. |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 20:53:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
Yes, very plain English. Thanks for agreeing with me about your call for a 'witch hunt'.
I never called for a witch-hunt. Please use the quote function to show that I did.
Please retract your statement regarding my not addressing sfdragon's fallacy of generalization. I have clearly proven, (the thread stands as record) that your point was false. |
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 21:04:28
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quote:
I never called for a witch-hunt.
Of course you didn't. If you don't look for it then you obviously won't see it.
EDIT: You clearly won this discusion, Brace, so you can stop proving your superiority. |
Away with powergaming propaganda! | I <3 Powergaming!
Don't feed the trolls. Especially the clever ones. |
Edited by - HelldoG on 18 Jul 2010 21:06:08 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 21:06:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
Yes, very plain English. Thanks for agreeing with me about your call for a 'witch hunt'.
I never called for a witch-hunt. Please use the quote function to show that I did.
Please retract your statement regarding my not addressing sfdragon's fallacy of generalization. I have clearly proven, (the thread stands as record) that your point was false.
I think some of your posts are really aggressive Brace, and I think that is why scribes react the way they do to some of them, and why so many scrolls have been sealed lately. I think you should try to avoid aggressive statements like : I am right, you are wrong! or 'I have clearly proven', 'show me I'm wrong'.
I don't know, just a thought, not an attack. |
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 21:12:43
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quote:
I think some of your posts are really aggressive Brace, and I think that is why scribes react the way they do to some of them, and why so many scrolls have been sealed lately. I think you should try to avoid aggressive statements like : I am right, you are wrong! or 'I have clearly proven', 'show me I'm wrong'.
I don't know, just a thought, not an attack.
True, so very true. But I can bet he will take it as an attack and he makes an counter-attack. That just how he and this kind of peaple work. It's pointless to argument with him. Just Sain'. |
Away with powergaming propaganda! | I <3 Powergaming!
Don't feed the trolls. Especially the clever ones. |
Edited by - HelldoG on 18 Jul 2010 21:14:51 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 21:19:55
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{sigh}
I had a long rebuttal here, and after having to edit out the snarkiness (several times), I decided none of it was really going to change anything, and had very little to do with the actual topic.
I think the best thing to do is simply ignore posts/threads that bait you (weather done on-purpose or not).
This last rash of contention has pulled me away from the reason I came back - to make more maps. Now all I do is argue.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 21:30:28
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| That's it. Let just ignore cartain people. Ehhh... The "ignore" option would come in handy for such occasions. Not saing that it's needed, just it could be useful. |
Away with powergaming propaganda! | I <3 Powergaming!
Don't feed the trolls. Especially the clever ones. |
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Can't we Stop the labeling Each other Haters?
Topic Locked
