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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 13:28:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Splitting the Realms will shatter the fanbase more than anything else. I just don't see the massive divide that is described here on CK. Every convention I go to and every game day and FLGS, I see the Realms being played and enjoyed. I only ever see the dissention here on CK. That being said, I too miss some of the old stuff, so I don’t want you to think I am 100% pleased with everything that has transpired. I am just providing some perspective.
Well, Matt, it's not fair to say that the dissension doesn't exist because you don't see it at cons and FLGS. The fact is, those that don't like what has happened, aren't going to be as involved in those events since they are 'speaking with their pocketbooks' and avoiding such things.
I do see the divide, and not just on CK, but with my friends that have been Realms fans for as long as I have.
Regarding Splitting the Realms, (and I keep using it because it's so darn relevant) BattleTech did just that with Classic BattleTech and Mechwarrior: Dark Age. Published material for both groups without destroying the game. Now, BT has reverted backwards, but they are still moving toward the canon established by Dark Age. Thus, keeping both groups relatively happy (except for the wooly space hamster group). So, it IS possible to do so. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 13:40:38
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| See, this is why I like my book of optional setting expansion packs; you start with the basic, fluffy, Eddyfied old school realms in one book, then you have another book describing how, if you wish to do so, you can add the Time of Troubles, the Return of Shade, the Spellplague, etc, etc... |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 14:37:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Well, Matt, it's not fair to say that the dissension doesn't exist because you don't see it at cons and FLGS. The fact is, those that don't like what has happened, aren't going to be as involved in those events since they are 'speaking with their pocketbooks' and avoiding such things.
I do see the divide, and not just on CK, but with my friends that have been Realms fans for as long as I have.
I agree completely. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 17:54:05
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Only chiming in to say I'd love to know what the good news is for Realms fans, Matt.
I will also chime in that the dissention is there, Matt. Not just here at the 'Keep, but in real life as well. Those that don't like the later timeline ignore conventions and games dealing with it, while those of us that do like it go to them. It's a matter of going to enjoy something versus going to yell and not enjoy themselves.
I just miss all the sages who have left for other worlds since 2007. They were nice, and made the 'Keep that much more fun to visit.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 19:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Splitting the Realms will shatter the fanbase more than anything else. I just don't see the massive divide that is described here on CK. Every convention I go to and every game day and FLGS, I see the Realms being played and enjoyed. I only ever see the dissention here on CK. That being said, I too miss some of the old stuff, so I don't want you to think I am 100% pleased with everything that has transpired. I am just providing some perspective.
Well, Matt, it's not fair to say that the dissension doesn't exist because you don't see it at cons and FLGS. The fact is, those that don't like what has happened, aren't going to be as involved in those events since they are 'speaking with their pocketbooks' and avoiding such things.
QFT
I traveled a bit outside of NY the past 6 months - around where I live on LI I can't any 4e games - and I found many gaming groups in other states, and to be quite frank, I couldn't find one that was overly happy with 4e, and the couple of people I found playing with the 4e rules were still using pre-Spellplague Realms.
I don't go to conventions - most gamers DON'T - they just play the damn games. What you see at cons are the Die-Hard fans* who will accept anything written by the designers.
Time for a reality check. At the last Gencon, there were just as many tables playing the last edition of D&D as there were the current one - that was a first. Now take that into consideration when you realize that the people who go to cons are FAR more likely to except the new edition, and you will realize just how UNACCEPTED 4e really is.
*Edit: Wording changed because I agree it was inflammatory - my apologies.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jun 2010 00:13:04 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 19:36:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't go to conventions - most gamers DON'T - they just play the damn games. What you see at cons are the rabid fanbois who will except any drivel written by their heroes.
Hey! I resemble that remark...
quote:
Time for a reality check. At the last Gencon, there were just as many tables playing the last edition of D&D as there were the current one - that was a first. Now take that into consideration when you realize that the people who go to cons are FAR more likely to except the new edition, and you will realize just how UNACCEPTED 4e really is.
You probably missed this in your absence from the 'Keep, MT, but I posted the numbers for this GenCon:
499 D&D Games:
19 - First Edition
3 - 2nd Edition
9 - 3rd Edition
113 - 3.5 Edition
214 - 4th Edition
141 - Pathfinder
And, with the 'official' games removed (ones sponsored by WotC/Paizo):
113 - 3.5 Edition
48 - 4th Edition
60 - Pathfinder
So, out of 499 D&D games at Gencon, 10% are 4E games run by private parties. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 09 Jun 2010 19:40:24 |
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Gambit
Learned Scribe
110 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 19:43:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
There is possibly great news for FR fans, maybe. Nevermind, forget I said that. Besides it would be awhile before you would know anyways.
Can I get any more ambiguous?
*whistles contently*
Matt, I know it probably isnt possible for you to divulge any more specific details, but do you mean this statement as it pertains to this scroll and a restart, or do you mean it as a general blanket statement that all FR fans (pre and post spellplague) have good news coming? |
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Gambit
Learned Scribe
110 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 19:48:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
I'd roll things back to sometime in the 1370s, pre-Spellplague. No need for reconciliation, the material as of 4e simply never happened and future material in any putative 5e FR would not automatically assume any of it was ever put into print.
What about the droves of us that don't mind post-Spellplague era and some of the plots that have been going on?
I would say that most (not all), of the current post spellplague realms fans were also fans of the realms prior to the catastrophe, whereas as the reverse of that statement is most defiantely not true. Therefore I think it would be easier to bring those back into the fold rather than keep the division that is ever present at current time. |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 20:06:51
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I'd imagine Matt's said everything he possibly can at this point. A similar hint (it seems to me) was dropped by The Hooded One in the Ask Ed scroll as well.
If I was a gambling man, I'd put a SMALL amount of money on the news being, if not a full reboot, but some pre-plague game materials at some point in the future (as in, a couple of years at least). |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 21:23:35
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First at Wooly:
Playing the game, actually *playing* Dungeons and Dragons, is a major aspect of the Realms. The Harper Schism, Cormyr after the death of Azoun, and the Manshoon Wars, were all detailed, as I said, with sophistication and acumen. Sophistication and acumen which exceeded any efforts by any designers in the history of the game. It was in my game, the guy down the streets game, and the myriad other folks who *played* the game. All these stories taken together and woven in a grand tapestry, a "grand history of the Realms", if you will. I'm sorry that you choose to not take part in this, the most important and impressive aspect of this game. The players, all of us, develop the Realms. No offense to the many men and women who have developed the Realms over the years, but in my opinion, 90% of published material is schlock bordering on garbage. But, taken as a grand tapestry, an immersive collaborative story-telling experience, the Realms becomes something beautiful. No matter how hard designers might try, they will never be able to compete with, or even adequately portray, the grand design that is the greater Realms, the Realms that exist where my games meet the thousands of games being played all over the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Cleric Generic
See, this is why I like my book of optional setting expansion packs; you start with the basic, fluffy, Eddyfied old school realms in one book, then you have another book describing how, if you wish to do so, you can add the Time of Troubles, the Return of Shade, the Spellplague, etc, etc...
Congratulations, Generic. Your dream-publishing has come to life. Take a big red pen and write "What if?!" across the title page of every book you own. Since you failed to get the memo, ALL of the books were published with just that in mind. I could probably scour up 15 or 20 Ed quotes on this topic, but I don't think it's needed. The Forgotten Realms were given to us, at a pittance, as a place where all of our stories could be told. I personally take this as an opportunity to weave all the things I like into all the things I don't, (just like in real life) and turn out something even better than what I was given.
Imagine the wretched lot of poor Chris Clairemont back in the 90's. He sure as hell couldn't of liked the old X-men, "Marvel Girl" being a coffee toting secretary, the team gamboling about one lame adventure after another. However, he took that franchise, with all the things he didn't like, and immersed himself into a great collaborative fiction. (Didn't even bother to discard the things he didn't like, just moved forward.) That's what all the sourcebooks were about. They are not meant to paint the picture for you. The sourcebooks just put a frame around the picture. Now, if you're like Wooly, and you don't even play Dungeons and Dragons, you probably *want* that picture painted for you. You don't create, integrate, reimagine or expand. You just consume.
No offense, but I don't consume the Forgotten Realms. I use the Realms to tell great, human stories, for real people. And my Realms, thanks to the work of everyone who came before me, everyone who is working currently, and everyone who will come after, are better than even Ed Greenwood can imagine.
(I don't like the Spellplague either. I love Mystra. I don't like the myriad catastrophes forced upon the common man on Faerun, everyday, much less the RSE's ((which have never occured 'once a year')). However, I recognize that things don't always go the way I want. The Spellplague did liven up my game *quite* a bit.) |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 21:40:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
<snip>((which have never occured 'once a year'))
I agree with most of what you say, but this bit caught me:
1370 - King Obould Many-Arrows lays siege to Mithral Hall (Minor Area Event)
1371 - Death of King Azoun IV, Trial of Cyric the Mad, Blingdenstone destroyed (not quite Realms-shaking, but added together, almost)
1372 - Return of the Archwizards (RSE)
1373 - Rage of the Dragons (RSE)
1374 - Crusade to Retake Myth/Cormanthor War Drannor (RSE), CSA Adventure trilogy begins (minor RSE), Empire of Netheril is reborn with raising of Sakkors (RSE), Death of Khelben Arunson (RSE)
1375 - CSA Adv trilogy concludes (minor RSE), Thayan civil war (RSE), death of Halaster, the mad mage (RSE), Lolth/Eilistraee sava game (RSE) |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 22:37:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
<snip>((which have never occured 'once a year'))
I agree with most of what you say, but this bit caught me:
1370 - King Obould Many-Arrows lays siege to Mithral Hall (Minor Area Event)
1371 - Death of King Azoun IV, Trial of Cyric the Mad, Blingdenstone destroyed (not quite Realms-shaking, but added together, almost)
1372 - Return of the Archwizards (RSE)
1373 - Rage of the Dragons (RSE)
1374 - Crusade to Retake Myth/Cormanthor War Drannor (RSE), CSA Adventure trilogy begins (minor RSE), Empire of Netheril is reborn with raising of Sakkors (RSE), Death of Khelben Arunson (RSE)
1375 - CSA Adv trilogy concludes (minor RSE), Thayan civil war (RSE), death of Halaster, the mad mage (RSE), Lolth/Eilistraee sava game (RSE)
I don't think that any of the above events were RSE's. While these are certainly perturbations in the Grand Scheme, they are nowhere near as "Realms Shaking" as the Time of Troubles or the Spellplague.
Death of Azoun IV? Not Realms shaking. It was the natural progression of events. "Netherils" rebirth? While a 'new' addition of a great new set of antagonists, not a Realms shaking event. (And thanks God. If I had to thwart the bumbling attempts of the Zhentarim once more, I would've choked. What *exactly* were they after?)
Death of Khlebun? Bid deal, not Realms shaking. Rage of the Dragons? Actually pretty minor, compared to ToT or Spellplague. The Elven Crusade? Great for the elves, great for the 'forces of good' in the Realms, but Realms shaking? Nah. A big deal, yes. Lolth/Elistraee... If the drow were the focus of your game, ok. So maybe an Underdark Shaking Event...
Death of Halaster? yeah, right... Wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn?
Thayan Civil war? Regional at best. The only shaking that occurred as a result of that is the enclaves were recalled. Don't worry, plenty of other wizards will step up to fill in those market gaps. Oh, and the night endless revels in Aglarond. I'm sure the Simbul can "shake it up" on the dance floor... |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 23:00:02
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Wooly, WotC has not divided the Realms community. They did not come along and say “pick a side”.
That people choose to not support the current era of the Realms is their choice, and their choice alone.
Granted, people may have chosen to not buy the new books or even stop playing in the Realms–which is fine—but that’s frankly not the same thing as sitting on a “side” and tapping one’s feet impatiently while waiting for things to get back to normal.
I too think the notion of a “massive divide” amongst the community is a phenomena particular to Candlekeep.com and a bit less on the WotC forums. The gaming group I’m a part of made the transition smoothly to 4E and my players love the rules (something people seem to forget: rules sets are as much a draw to play D&D as any setting a DM might choose to use) and have taken full advantage of what the rules and the post-Spellplague Realms have to offer player characters in terms of character building choices, character backgrounds and an evolving story.
I know for a fact I’m not alone in this experience.
Ths is why it’s silly to generalize that people will, on average, not play at cons in the 4E Realms because it’s the 4E Realms. If you like the 4E rules, you’ll play because you like playing the game. The rules system used at cons are far more likely to determine if a person will sign up for a game than what setting is used as the backdrop.
I’d appreciate it if Markus would refrain from generalizing about con-goers. Comments like his only show he doesn't know nearly as much on the subject as he'd like to think.
Again, WotC did not divide the Realms community. Any such divide as it actually exists on a place like Candlekeep.com is one entirely created by the people who choose to view the setting as divided, and who actively seek to maintain such a division as the status quo.
Makes it easier to throw rocks at WotC that way.
<Puts on flame retardant suit, then realizes I’m like an old Superman: flames, like Kryptonite, just don’t bother me like they used to> |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 09 Jun 2010 23:50:59 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 23:44:57
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Brace: I'm defining the RSE's as those stories that changed the Realms in a significant way. Things like Azoun/Khelben/Halaster dying had an immediate impact on people and governments in their sphere of influence. With their death, policy and procedures were changed in "how things get done". Halaster, not so much as the others, but the fact that WotC published a whole sourcebook/adventure on how his death 'called' adventurers to Undermountain, implies that Waterdeep got a huge influx of people heading to the dungeon. In the case of the Archwizards/Rage of the Dragons/Cormanthor War and such, they are generally considered RSE's by a majority of the fans since they were book trilogies that told of massive changes to Faerûn. (I'd add in Mr. Kemp's novels to that too, but I didn't have the dates of when they occured on-hand.) If you are defining RSEs as only those items where the deities were involved, then consider this:
1371 - Trial of Cyric the Mad - results in Cyric regaining his sanity and Kelemvor adjusting to his godhood
1372 - Bane returns, bursting from Iyatchu Xvim; Lolth falls silent, tranforming into a greater goddess
1373 - High Priest Zimrilim use the Alabaster Staff to reanimate the corpse of Gilgeam God-King; Shadovars recover The Leaves of One Night, increasing Shar's strength and bring her entropy closer to Faerûn
1374 - The Risen Heresy takes root, establishing Amaunator's return to the Realms; Sseth the serpent god nearly escapes his Abyssal prison to return the Prime Material Plane
1375 - Lolth & Eilistraee's sava game consumes Selvetarm and Vhaerun, their churches absorbed by the goddesses
Mr. Misc: WotC did not intentionally divide the community. In fact, I believe that it surprised them as much as anyone else that the split occured. But to say that the split isn't as drastic because former fans are now silent regarding the Realms does not mean that the split isn't as large as you'd like to believe. I know that there a LOT of people that were so disgusted with the changes that they walked away, not looking back. Those people would most like not come back even if a complete reset of the Realms was published. So, in that regard, those of us that are vocal about our dislike of the Spellplague are only representative of the dislike. Just like those that are vocal about their liking the changes are representative of their side.
I'm not trying to say that there is a "massive" divide, just that there is a clear divide between the two camps. Personally, I don't like the changes to the Realms since the 'mood' of the Realms is much darker (this is what WotC intended with their Points of Light setting). I liked the stories of the Knights of Myth Drannor and Danilo Thann's singing sword, which were much lighter while still maintaining the threat of danger. I prefer my heroes to be wise-crackers that laugh in the face of death (well, okay, Batman and Drizzt don't so much, but they are the exception). And regarding the 4E rules set, I think they are a well-crafted rules set that work superbly for some games (especially Star Wars Saga), but I never got the feeling that they were fantasy rules. Much like you wouldn't run a FR campaign using BattleTech 'Mech combat rules, I don't use 4E in a fantasy setting (although, I haven't had an opportunity to use them in any other setting since the OGL is locked pretty tight to fantasy).
Anyway, that's my $0.02. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 23:53:52
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quote:
What you see at cons are the rabid fanbois who will except any drivel written by their heroes
I go every year to hang out with Ed and some other Realms authors and designers. I think this comment was a bit of a low blow meant to incite a rabid response; hardly appropriate for the standards of CK. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 23:56:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
First at Wooly:
Playing the game, actually *playing* Dungeons and Dragons, is a major aspect of the Realms. The Harper Schism, Cormyr after the death of Azoun, and the Manshoon Wars, were all detailed, as I said, with sophistication and acumen.
First of all, no, playing the game is not a major aspect of the setting. The setting is a place you play and where stories are set -- not playing in that setting does not mean the stories have less impact.
And I will ask you again: where are these events detailed? Sure, we got the original descriptions of the Harper Schism and the Manshoon Wars in Cloak & Dagger -- but where is any other detail? My complaint was that those two events weren't followed up on -- so prove me wrong, and show me where we got more than a blurb or a PrC.
And where is the sourcebook describing post-Azoun IV Cormyr?
None of these things, after 2E, were detailed "with sophistication and acumen". After 3E came out, two of these three things were basically ignored and the third was simply glossed over. |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 00:03:45
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You should come play at my house, Wooly...
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The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 00:09:18
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While I freely admit most of what I say is just my opinion, and that everyone's opinion will be different because they are based on subjectivity - the people you encounter will be different then the ones I encounter - there is one FACT here.
For the first time ever, at a Gencon, just as many (if not more) people have decided to stick with an older edition. This is due primarily to the fact that the only company supporting 4e is Hasbro, and nearly all the smaller companies are sticking with their own version of 3e. Had that not been the case, most folks probably would have moved on to 4e, b*tching and griping as grognards do... but they would have made the move, as they've done so many times in the past.
The playing field (pun intended) has changed - people have more options now. No longer does TSR rule the roost - TSR is gone and Hasbro has (apparently) lost touch with much of its clientele. The same thing is happening with computers - people are refusing to 'upgrade' their platforms these days because they KNOW its NOT necessary. Screw Windows7 - my XP machine runs just fine. 
We've been down this road before - there were competing systems of D&D being supported at the same time by TSR (OD&D and AD&D), but ONE company had the reigns of both, and were able to allow the older system to slip quietly into the night. WotC just wishes it had that ability again; the OGL was literally their 'Pandora's Box'.
I'm not your enemy Misc - I think you and I would have a ball playing together (regardless of system or setting used). I just think WotC bit off more then it can chew - had they changed the rules and then later changed the setting, it wouldn't have been nearly as hard a pill to swallow. They expected their fans to accept too many changes at once - I note the Eberron community (who did not receive an RSE and time-jump) did not react nearly as hostilly to the new rules.
I don't think WotC or Hasbro are 'evil' - I just think they made a series of bad decisions, no one of which was truly awful (even Cyric killing Mystra), but all lumped together it came out looking pretty abysmal. It happens all the time to businesses, and some are able to bounce-back, while others slip into oblivion. Hasbro is too BIG to go anywhere, but D&D may suffer for it in the long run. Hell, if I wanted to point fingers at an 'Ebil corporation', I'd be looking at BP, not a toy company. 
EDIT:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I go every year to hang out with Ed and some other Realms authors and designers. I think this comment was a bit of a low blow meant to incite a rabid response; hardly appropriate for the standards of CK.
Agreed - I changed the wording without changing the meaning - my apologies. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jun 2010 00:18:49 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 00:14:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Wooly, WotC has not divided the Realms community. They did not come along and say “pick a side”.
You're right, they didn't say that. But just because they didn't say that doesn't mean they didn't divide the community. When the publisher of a setting takes that setting in a direction disliked by a portion of the community, then that publisher is at fault.
You're implying that it's our fault. You're implying that a whole bunch of us just spontaneously decided "Oh, hey, I think I'm going to arbitrarily dislike something. What fun!"
That could not be further from the truth. In fact, I find the notion insulting. I am to be blamed for not liking the very core of something changing? I am to blame for not liking something after all the elements that I liked were removed? That is utterly preposterous.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
That people choose to not support the current era of the Realms is their choice, and their choice alone.
Yup. But the fact that the current era and the previous era are two wholly separate beasts is not our choice. That is what forced us to make a choice. And that choice was between what we liked and what we disliked.
Tell me, do you take the blame for not liking food at your favorite restaurant when they change all the ingredients? That's the same scenario we're in here.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
I too think the notion of a “massive divide” amongst the community is a phenomena particular to Candlekeep.com and a bit less on the WotC forums. The gaming group I’m a part of made the transition smoothly to 4E and my players love the rules (something people seem to forget: rules sets are as much a draw to play D&D as any setting a DM might choose to use) and have taken full advantage of what the rules and the post-Spellplague Realms have to offer player characters in terms of character building choices, character backgrounds and an evolving story.
Good for you and your players. But I hope you're not expecting every single group and every single player to react the same way.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Ths is why it’s silly to generalize that people will, on average, not play at cons in the 4E Realms because it’s the 4E Realms. If you like the 4E rules, you’ll play because you like playing the game. The rules system used at cons are far more likely to determine if a person will sign up for a game than what setting is used as the backdrop.
Pretty sure I never made that generalization. I don't like the 4E rules, but that is entirely separate from my dislike of the 4E Realms. I see the setting and the ruleset as distinctly separate; all of my complaints have focused on what was done to the setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
I’d appreciate it if Markus would refrain from generalizing about con-goers. Comments like his only show he doesn't know nearly as much on the subject as he'd like to think.
No one should be making generalizations, on either side of the debate. And quite frankly, I think that blaming people for not liking something after it's changed is just as bad.
I'd appreciate a show of respect for other people's opinions, rather than saying they're at fault for something they had no control over.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Again, WotC did not divide the Realms community. Any such divide as it actually exists on a place like Candlekeep.com is one entirely created by the people who choose to view the setting as divided, and who actively seek to maintain such a division as the status quo.
Their actions lead to the divide. There is no other way to look at it. If they hadn't done the timejump and warped the setting into something many of us find unrecognizable, then we wouldn't be able to complain about those actions, now would we?
I am willing to accept that the divide may not be as vast as I think it is -- but I will only accept that if people who say the divide isn't all that are also willing to accept that they might be wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Makes it easier to throw rocks at WotC that way.
I have long railed against arbitrarily throwing rocks at anyone. I have repeatedly counseled people to make sure they have all the relevant info before making a decision, and I have counseled against arbitrary blame and accusations of malice on the part of WotC. I have even taken flack for this stance.
I am very angered to receive such an accusation from you. It ignores everything I've said for more than two years on this site. 
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 00:29:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
You should come play at my house, Wooly...
Why? Will you produce these detailed sourcebooks that I've not seen and that you've yet to name?
I just noticed a comment from you that I overlooked, earlier...
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
The sourcebooks just put a frame around the picture. Now, if you're like Wooly, and you don't even play Dungeons and Dragons, you probably *want* that picture painted for you. You don't create, integrate, reimagine or expand. You just consume.
I really, really hope you weren't trying to be this insulting. Because if you were, that is one of the most out of line comments that has ever appeared on this site.
You know why I don't play D&D? Because my old gaming group basically stopped playing, and I've not the time nor the inclination to seek out a new group. I don't get enough time with my friends -- the old group -- as it is. I'm certainly not going to divide that time further with a group of people I don't know. That is the only reason I'm not playing now.
Agreed, the sourcebooks paint a picture. But there's nothing wrong with wanting a more complete picture than what is offered. If I'm taking a picture of a castle, I don't do it from a mile away -- I get as close as I possibly can, and take pics from many angles. I want a lot of details. I don't need to see the builder's plans or know which family member died by falling down the stairs in 1687, but I do want to know the end result of all of that.
Now, you want to say I don't "create, integrate, reimagine or expand"? Let's see, I've written Adventure Hooks in 9 out of 9 volumes of the Candlekeep Compendium, plus another set for the tenth, plus one for the commemorative book for Ed Greenwood. I've written my own short stories set in the Realms. I'm constantly thinking up new NPCs for the Realms, four of whom have also appeared in the Candlekeep Compendium. I'm working on a series of three articles, each creating a unique, Realms-specific form of warforged that is grounded in established Realmslore. I've completed two of them, and it's already been recommended to me that I submit them to the online version of Dragon -- by a person with more than one bit of published Realmslore.
You may say that all I'm doing is "consuming", but I ask you: what else can I do? If all of this isn't enough, then what else is there? Actually getting published? Would that make you realize I don't just consume?
I am highly insulted right now. I am only remaining civil by telling myself your insult was unintentional. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 01:09:46
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I'm confused. Did you write Realmslore? I haven't seen it published... I require that you deliver these alledged bits of Realmslore. I must have missed these "sources". Publication seems to be your metric for establishing canon. Which it is... So everything you wrote isn't Realmslore, is it?
But I'll choose to accept that it is Realmslore, based on my metric; my stories, your stories, Ed's stories, the James boys stories et infinitum, are Realmslore. All these stories *taken together* creating a greater story, one of significant "sophistication and acumen". It can be difficult to seamlessly integrate "my canon" with "everyone elses canon", but I manage.
I don't really no what you're so amped about, Wooly. It can't be the changes to the game... (They're not real, and the setting itself, the *game* requires you to do as you wish)... Is it the longing for more products? You seem to take issue with many development choices across editions, so you aren't a slavish fanboi... You've written Realmslore, you know that your work is just as good, if not better, than much of what has come out of TSR/WoTC/Hasbro... Do you really need these companies anymore?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 01:24:10
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Fellow scribes, I know this is a rather contested topic. But we're wavering into "unfriendly" territory again. Tone it down a little, and remember to keep it civil. Okay?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 01:53:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
I'm confused. Did you write Realmslore? I haven't seen it published... I require that you deliver these alledged bits of Realmslore. I must have missed these "sources". Publication seems to be your metric for establishing canon. Which it is... So everything you wrote isn't Realmslore, is it?
Huh? I was contesting your statement that I simply consume, that I don't imagine or create.
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
I don't really no what you're so amped about, Wooly. It can't be the changes to the game... (They're not real, and the setting itself, the *game* requires you to do as you wish)... Is it the longing for more products? You seem to take issue with many development choices across editions, so you aren't a slavish fanboi... You've written Realmslore, you know that your work is just as good, if not better, than much of what has come out of TSR/WoTC/Hasbro... Do you really need these companies anymore?
What I'm amped about with your statement is the implication that I have no imagination or creativity.
What I'm amped about in regards to the setting is that I fell in love with a richly detailed setting, one with much history and a grand sense of wonder and possibility. The current version of the setting has had the history made irrelevant, and the wonder and possibility aren't there. That bothers me.
And when others tell me it's my fault that I don't like those elements being removed, that bothers me.
And it bothers me that now discussions of Realmslore are never far from heated debate, and that people aren't respecting the opinions of others. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gambit
Learned Scribe
110 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 04:02:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertWhat I'm amped about in regards to the setting is that I fell in love with a richly detailed setting, one with much history and a grand sense of wonder and possibility. The current version of the setting has had the history made irrelevant, and the wonder and possibility aren't there. That bothers me.
And when others tell me it's my fault that I don't like those elements being removed, that bothers me.
Well said Wooly, well said.
I personally hate when people say "well you just arent a true Realms fan" because I happen to disagree with the wonton pointless destruction of this rich world full of fantastical people and places that I've grown rather fond of. |
Edited by - Gambit on 10 Jun 2010 04:13:15 |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 04:34:05
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| Wooly, what do you need Hasbro for? |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 05:35:07
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Sage has asked us to remain calm. He's been uber-patient with me (for years). And I'm about to burn that bridge.
Wooly, you are a jerk.
If we subtracted your inane "blame WotC for dividing the community!" comments, this thread (and many others like it) wouldn't have gone south.
The problem isn't WotC. Frankly, it's you, owing to your inability to do anything other than play the victim card in response to the 4E Realms.
You owe Brace an apology. ASAP.
No Realms DM or player should have to suffer being publicly "corrected" (especially by a moderator) for seeing the value in the experience of playing D&D in the Realms. That is literally at the heart of what it means to live in the Realms through the game.
Someone like you should know this simple fact by heart, just as you should know better than to chastise someone for holding that view, but you've clearly fallen out of touch with the setting and the community. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 10 Jun 2010 05:47:30 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 05:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Sage has asked us to remain calm. He's been uber-patient with me (for years). And I'm about to burn that bridge.
Wooly, you are a jerk.
If we subtracted your inane "blame WotC for dividing the community!" comments, this thread (and many others like it) wouldn't have gone south.
The problem isn't WotC. Frankly, it's you.
You owe Brace an apology. Get to it.
WHAT?
I mean, WHAT?!?!?
Wooly's the problem? How the **** is Wooly the problem?
His first comment in this dialogue was a counterpoint to Matt James' post asking about all the FR fans that like the Spellplague. Next thing I see is Brace saying that Wooly's opinion doesn't matter because he doesn't play the game. Wooly then responded to that, very tactfully and kept his anger in check. But Brace then continued to belittle Wooly's opinion on the matter. And Wooly owes HIM an apology?
Honestly, MM, we're usually on the same track, but this time I have to say that you're in the wrong here. Wooly is not the cause of the fanbase splitting over the pre/post Spellplague any more than I caused the Gulf disaster. In fact, Wooly has almost ALWAYS been the voice to quiet the rest of us when we wanted heads on pikes over this issue. He is always the one to bring discussions away from pointing the fingers at this designer or that author and back towards WotC simply making a corporate decision to focus on books that sold in the past to better there bottom line. He's never been one to assign blame, but always pointed out that, even if we didn't like what WotC had done, their intentions were NOT evil nor did they intend to alienate some of their fans.
Aw heck, now I'm getting angry. 
Time to go to bed and let myself cool off before logging back in tomorrow morning. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 06:01:40
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Ugh. This topic... wow. Cleric Generic, thank you for reminding us there are many who do like the new, "improved," Realms and don't like those that don't like the "improvements." Not by your own hand, but by their own.
Okay, let's spell this out slowly for everyone to read, as this is the train of events that has led to the trainwreck we see before us.
Edition Wars: Unintentionally/Intentionally started by a number of sources related to WotC, which include some forum activity by designers, then inactivity from them, Podcasts decrying the old order (and that, to me, were very insulting... especially the bit about the Guardinals made me disheartened), and then being told one thing and doing another.
4e FR was not to be a Points of Light Setting, as per one of their podcasts. It IS a Points of Light Setting.
What sealed it for me (I speak for no other person here), was their unintentional insult/badgering of the previous edition, as well as intentionally lying about the design of 4e FR. I grew up being insulted and badgered, and I have very STRONG feelings towards lies and being lied to. Real life has not been kind to me or my family, so being insulted and lied to makes me not want to do business with x, y, or z company.
Missing Sourcebooks: 3.x did not update previous lore for the next generation of gamers. Some of us (i.e. myself and others) did not have the opportunity to purchase the previous lore. Then, inexplicably, their entire 3.x and 2e sourcebooks were yanked over a weekend. I came back to purchase a 2e sourcebook for a project (to maintain my preferred level of continuity), and they were gone (speaking of the great .pdf yank last year).
Further, a thread on Wizards' boards, before they converted them and buried the evidence (sorry, being snarky there), actually had FR fans say what they wanted. Started by one of the scribes no longer here at the 'keep, it was the cleanest, nicest thread over at WotC. It detailed that we, as the fans who were willing to pay money for them, wanted the Sword Coast, The North, The Dalelands, a Far Lands (Zakkhara, Kara-Tur, and Maztica), and a few other sourcebooks to help us flesh out our Realms and make it similar and relatively consistent when gaming with others.
4e Dissent and opinions thereof:
Now, THREE YEARS after the conversion to 4e, it is no longer the top dog of the industry. As has been pointed out (and checked twice for accuracy), Gen Con now boasts that 10% of the actual games running 4e are personal games, the other personal games outnumber the 4e games. Sure 4e has the most games at Gen Con, but it's all RPGA. Now, take a look at the other editions and Pathfinder edition of the d20 game. Let it sink in for a minute. More people are meeting up, personally, for OTHER editions of the game. That's the disheartening part for me. 4e should have more going for it. I brought out my Gencon 2005 event catalogue... and it's a whole different story. 3.x was EVERYWHERE, RPGA, non-RPGA, other worlds, etc. etc. It outnumbered everything, personally, RPGA, and otherwise at GenCon.
Now, let me do some more conjecture here, based on my OWN FLGS. When 4e came out, a lot of people tried it. The people who didn't like Forgotten Realms didn't buy the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign guide. They didn't care that the previous lore was made irrelevant. They just said it was a reset for the "continuity >adult dirty movie/magazine type<" that they felt the Realms represented. The insults have been laid here AND elsewhere about this. What's worse, is my FLGS has a shelf of 4e books that he can't get sold, while another OGL companies' books are selling before they hit the shelves. One contains much more lore than the other, and feels a bit like Greyhawk meets the Forgotten Realms. Pathfinder has been working its way into the number one seller in my FLGS (and, last I heard) it is there. There, hard facts. Do I have the FLGS's Sales Numbers? Absolutely not. I base this on what the owner has told me. Now, on the flip side to this, the other local store that I frequent is all about 4e or tabletop war games (I'm never sure).
Whether you put your head in the sand or not, there are many of us who DO NOT like the changes. Now, at the same time, there are many of us who DO like the changes. BOTH must stop flaming and screeching at the other for not liking/not liking the Post-Spellplague Realms. It's pointless on all sides.
So, the people who WANTED the Realms to live on were given less heart, as the changes DIDN'T bring new people to the wonderful world. Further, the world was changed, very similarly to the Sundering, and eliminated many of our favorite places in the Realms to play. It wholesale destroyed regions, countries, and all of the areas that would "remember" previous lore.
We all disagree on what should and shouldn't be in the Realms. I really liked the Post-Cataclysm Krynn. It was pretty fun. The Post-Spellplague Era Abeir-Toril does not feel fun at all TO ME. It feels as if it has been hamstrung to me by wanting to be something it is not. The Realms was a cultural interaction for me, and the new Realms doesn't feel that way to me.
So, what do I do? I work on pre-spellplague projects with other Scribes. I praise all of the wonderful map work our scribes have put out there (which is truly stunning). I work to make sure that the Realms I fell in love with doesn't get forgotten.
Now, I'm going to remind you that certain scribes have left for other worlds... AGAIN. The Esteemed Purple Dragon Knight, Asgetrion, Mace Hammerhead, and KnightErrantJR are GONE (mace chimes in every now and again, but not like he used to). I've not seen others, like Kuje, in well over 6 months. These were wonderful people to talk to and enjoy the debates over lore. KEJR is one of my closest friends in the REAL world, and he SOLD EVERY SINGLE ONE of his Forgotten Realms sourcebooks for 3.x except two. The 3.0 Campaign Setting, and the Grand History. If that's not walking away and not looking back, I don't know what is.
Shattering the fanbase has already happened. Some of us are working to not do that. Mr. Misc and Brace, you're not making our jobs easier. Either learn that others don't like it and you have to respect that, or shut up. I have been quiet on EVERY 4E debate, whether 4e Realms or 4E as a ruleset. I respect those who play 4e and enjoy it for the game that it is. I dont' enjoy 4e like I do 3.x/Pathfinder/FantasyCraft. Respect that I enjoy a different play style and gaming style than you and let it be. If you're upset that we don't like the latest and greatest, you can ignore us. It's that easy.
MANY of us here, on BOTH sides of this debate, feel strongly. The idea Cleric Generic had was to "reset" the gods, but keep part of (or most of) what happened in the 100-year interlude. He's trying to bring us all back together. I respect that and appreciate it. Thank you Cleric Generic.
Sage, I am sorry to you for posting in this tone. To the other scribes, I am sorry as well. There is no need for this, but this HAS to stop. Both sides have valid points, and both sides need to just stop arguing and figure out a way to coexist.
I'm going to shut up now.   
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 10 Jun 2010 06:04:32 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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We can all have our cake and eat it! ... Maybe
Topic Locked
