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Originally posted by Snowblood

Oh and sage,,,,,thats sounds awesome........will be great to see the two side by side and then adjust mine to fit with yours to get a rather mind boggling tome on Imaskar..... good luck in your great works....

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Originally posted by Snowblood

thanx for that....a detailed critique is welcome

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Originally posted by Markustay

Glad he didn't touch on the tribes or the kalmyk - an obscure piece of lore in one of the Hordelands adventures has given me some interesting ideas for the Kalmyk (Ancient fallen empire, who's inhuman slaves revolted and eventually drove them out of their own lands). The Raumather Empire was the 'last hurrah' of those once-great people. BTW, they are more of a Slavic-like people, and not of the same genetic make-up as the Taangan. There are at least 4 human ethnic groups in The wastes. The people of Sossal are one of the last pure strains of human Kalmyk (just like the Hartsvale humans are one of the last pure strains of Netherease).

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Originally posted by Markustay

[b]Over the course of untold centuries large groups of them wandered both west and south, but the southern group ran afoul of the Muhjari (the forerunner of both the Imaskari and Durpari peoples, which migrated up throught the Utter east from Zakhara).

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This friction with the early Raurinease civilization forced most of the migrating Kalmyk (people who later became known as 'Ruamather' or 'Rashemi' stock) even further west, displacing earlier Kalmyk settlers in those regions. The last group to migrate in that direction were the Narfelli, who displaced the Gur tribes, who had lost some of their natural horsemanship as they developed from a hunter-gatherer group to a more sedentary state. The Gur in turn continued west, unable to deal with their barbaric brethren (and in truth, so many centuries had past they were unaware of the connection), and wound up in, and around, the fertile Anauroch basin. Parts of this early pre-Netherease Gur civilization can be seen in the tribes of the Ride (Eraka), the Tunlanders (Mir), and even a small group of originals living in the Iceroot Forest of The Hordelands.

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When the aboriginal Kara-Turan peoples began to migrate west themselves, they learned both horsemanship from the Gur, and a ferocious way of fighting from the 'new' Kalmyk, eventually becoming a distinct group unto themselves - the Taangan (later taking the name 'Tuigan' from the dominant clan).

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The (Hobgoblin) ...

... 'monstrous horsemen' descended on Ra-Khati and Khazari during this period ... and mostly because an oriental-like culture of hobgoblins in the Plain of Horses is just too cool to pass-up.[/qoute]

I thought hobgoblins are fey, the hobgoblin culture up there seems cool, tough it reminds me of the racial issue where people complained that Tolkien based orcs on the eastern people like the Huns.

[quote]I have over 200 canon ethnic groups I had to trace through various migrations and fit it all in with known canon. The human Kalmyk (based loosely on a Russo-Finnish culture) was the SECOND group of early humans to develop a civilization on Toril. They actually learned the rudiments of civilization from an earlier group that dominated them briefly - a group known to Sages only as the 'Pozi People' (no records exist of what they called themselves...perhaps the Elves might know...). That is the group that built many of the truly ancient works in The North, like the Citadel of the Raven. They learned civilization themselves at the feet of the Elves and Dragons, during that period of time when Dragons briefly ruled over the early Elven nations (a brief glimpse of that can be seen in a short story somewhere). They themselves were destroyed when the world was Sundered by the elves, dropping most of their settlements and cities into the sea, and setting human-kind back a good 10,000 years. The only 'pure' group of them still known to exist are the Reghedmen barbarians leaving in the Frozenfar (area around ten Towns), although the Northmen of Rauthym and elsewhere have quite a bit of that blood as well.

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Originally posted by Quale

Where does it say that the Muhjari are the forerunners?

Parts of the desert of desolation, but more inportantly the Semphar/Durpar connection and terms such as 'Muhjein' and 'Muhjari' are used in The Hordelands setting (check pg.16 1st)

I don't know cause I always ignored Semphar, another redundant arabic-style culture ...

NOT Arabic - Persian. See the Prince of Persia movie to get a feel for Semphar

Thanks for the info about the Gur, I need it for my Varisians in the Realms (adapting Paizo's Rise of the Runelords in the Heartlands).

If the Kalmyk are Finnish/Rus and predecessors of Raumathari/Rashemi how come the Rashemi have curled black hair and dusky skin? Anyways I always thought ''Ra'' and ''Shem'' are too ''good'' historical words not to use.

Ummmm... because the Rashemi/Raumathar people AREN'T Finnish? I said 'loosely based', as in 'their culture'. Physically they are a Cossack-like people, mostly dusky, with a slight oriental look to them (VERY slight). Think 'Conan of Cimmeria' for the barbaric Gur in the Tunlands and still in the northern wastes, and the Kazakhs (early Cossacks?) for the Horse warriors of The Ride and Narfel. Remember, these are broad comparisons - these are NOT those actual ethnic groups!

Aren't the Mir from the south, around the Forest of Mir/Keltormir, mentioned in -14 000 DR and the Tunlanders descended from the Angardt?

NO - the racial name of 'Mir' for the Tunlanders is mentioned in some product having to do with the Zhents, but I unfortunately couldn't find the exact reference yesterday - that was back before I started writing down WHERE I got my info from. I will try to find it. There was a Kingdom of Mir along the northern border of Calimshan many centuries ago, and there still is a forest of Mir - weather there is any connection or not I do not know, and I've never tried to figure one out. Considering that a later portion of the Imperium period had the Shoon Empire right on the doorstep of Cormyr, such a thing is a possibility. It is mentioned (somewhere - forgive me) that the Tunlanders and the people of The Ride are related, and mentioned elsewhere that the people of The Ride are a part of the original ethnic group as the Netherease. The name Eraka for The Ride barbarians comes form Warriors and Priests of the Realms.

IIRC, the Anghardt (sp?) were formed from a Rengarth and Nethrease mixture, as Netheril fell and their bloodline mixed with that of the barbarians of The North (I could be mistaken on that one - my knowledge of those tribes isn't all that great). That means that the Netherease - who were related to the pre-historic Kalmyk, and the Rengarth - who were related to the even-earlier Pozi people, have a very long history together indeed.

The Taangan are first mentioned in -9000 DR, how does that fit?

Since I said that the Kalmyk culture itself was originally dominated by even more advanced human culture, and that culture was the one mentioned in that short story (forget which) and was part of the Empires the DRAGONS made (along with conquered Elves), this bit of history goes back at least 25,000 years! I have a timeline, and everything works - the Copper Demon was the tricky part - IIRC he had to 'vanish' for some 50 yrs after getting free (hence why I have him conquering/bullying/ruling the Hobgoblins at that time), during which time the Narfel/Raumather War was at full-swing. It wasn't until the very end of the war that the Raumathar began to experiment with unearthed (and forbidden) Imaskari technology. I theorize (from reading Frostfell) that their magic was more Bardic/Druidic in nature, but the war caused them to 'lose their way', as it were.

I thought hobgoblins are fey, the hobgoblin culture up there seems cool, tough it reminds me of the racial issue where people complained that Tolkien based orcs on the eastern people like the Huns. Fey?
Most of the artwork - especially the 3e stuff - of Hobgoblins is very reminiscent of oriental culture. I've also come across art of hobgoblins riding flying beasts and Rhinos! This lead me down that path... thinking of them in terms of having a large cross-section of mounted troops. I see them as an eastern hobgoblin culture strongly influenced by the Horsemen fighters around them, along with the encroaching Kara-Turans (which I used to call the 'Lung' peoples, but that is a bit confusing, so I now refer to them as the Haltai - same group, its just that 'Lung' was misnomer by the Imaskari who 1st encountered them.) The Shou were a completely seperate group of interlopers). Also, they had many humans still among their culture - willing (conquered) people and thralls - it was mostly the Hobgoblins that left Chu'ta Te (now Chukei) behind and became the Suren. The humans were okay taking a break from the raiding lifestyle, especially after the defeat of their leader, the Copper Demon, at the hands of Wo Mai (more info on that in The Hordelands and the 2e Book of Artifacts). The humans were the people who eventually became the Chukeins, from whom the novel hero General Batu came.

200 groups , that is great. So the Ice Hunters were not a part of that civilization?

There was a period of time, probably a few thousand years in length, when the northern pole of Toril froze-over (caused by the climactic holocaust the Sundering wreaked upon the world). Since the Pozi were a sea-faring people (and had discovered and settled in many lands far from Faerūn), and their culture was primarily located at the 'top' of the world (which was MUCH warmer back then - one can assume the axial tilt was greatly lessened as a result of the sundering), they were nearly completely destroyed. Some of their ruins and culture are only now being discovered now that the great Glacier is finally receding.

The Ice Hunters were just one group of Kara-Turans that migrated north past the Ama basin into Faerūn when the Northern sea lay frozen. I would hazard to guess they are of mixed-stock now, maybe half Reghedmen (Pozi) blood by now. They, along with the people of the Great Glacier (Ulutiuns) are part of the Traell (The Giant Amongst Us), although various tribes have slightly different amounts of Pozi (Reghedmen/Northmen), Kalmyk (Netherease), and Haltai (aboriginal kara-Turan) blood. Ergo, 'Traell' is more of a cultural monicker (just like the Ice Hunters), rather then the name of a specific ethnic group.

I always thought the Citadel of the Raven culture is related to the Rengarth and the Netherese, but it's only wishful pure speculation.

There may have been a time when the Netherease used that citadel, but it pre-dated them. However, since the two groups you mentioned are related to the earlier groups I postulate - the pre-historic Pozi and Kalmyk peoples - it is indeed related in a very round-about way.

I'm interested in this subject cause I needed some historical background on Thassilon and Azlant when adapting Paizo's stuff to the Realms, but more and more it deviates from canon cause I moved Calimshan, the Bedine and Semphar out of Faerun, that did change a lot of things. The Imaskari are sort of a proto-indoeuropean group, starting with Gundavar that is inspired by Gondor and the ''Black Numenoreans'' in the Utter East. Gond was an artificer-deity of Azlant with remnants as Zionil and in Lantan (based this all on a weak link that the Imaskari language is related to Lantanna, from the Dragon Annual, and on his red hair). Azlanti are often described as being red, so I figured one of the survivors would be like the Celts or Talfiric people, saved by druidic bonds with the fey, also somewhat like Howard's Cimmerians. And the polar civilization would be called Thulsa instead of Thassilon (sort of after Thule and guess who ... but I'll stop rambling now.

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Originally posted by Markustay


NOT Arabic - Persian. See the Prince of Persia movie to get a feel for Semphar

I intend to see the movie, until at least then the names like Abu Bakr (Arabic) ruin the feel.

Ummmm... because the Rashemi/Raumathar people AREN'T Finnish? I said 'loosely based', as in 'their culture'. Physically they are a Cossack-like people, mostly dusky, with a slight oriental look to them (VERY slight). Think 'Conan of Cimmeria' for the barbaric Gur in the Tunlands and still in the northern wastes, and the Kazakhs (early Cossacks?) for the Horse warriors of The Ride and Narfel. Remember, these are broad comparisons - these are NOT those actual ethnic groups!

All right I get it now.

NO - the racial name of 'Mir' for the Tunlanders is mentioned in some product having to do with the Zhents, but I unfortunately couldn't find the exact reference yesterday - that was back before I started writing down WHERE I got my info from. I will try to find it. There was a Kingdom of Mir along the northern border of Calimshan many centuries ago, and there still is a forest of Mir - weather there is any connection or not I do not know, and I've never tried to figure one out. Considering that a later portion of the Imperium period had the Shoon Empire right on the doorstep of Cormyr, such a thing is a possibility. It is mentioned (somewhere - forgive me) that the Tunlanders and the people of The Ride are related, and mentioned elsewhere that the people of The Ride are a part of the original ethnic group as the Netherease. The name Eraka for The Ride barbarians comes form Warriors and Priests of the Realms.

I looked, the Mir in Ruins of Zhentil Keep in the Darkhold part (pg. 37), doesn't say much about them except being horsemen and scavengers. I think in LEoF it says that the Tunlanders descend from the Angardt, and the barbarians of the Ride from the Rengarth. The Angardt split off due to different views on magic circa -1300s DR. That name Azuposi might be what I was looking for for Azlant.

Since I said that the Kalmyk culture itself was originally dominated by even more advanced human culture, and that culture was the one mentioned in that short story (forget which) and was part of the Empires the DRAGONS made (along with conquered Elves), this bit of history goes back at least 25,000 years! I have a timeline, and everything works - the Copper Demon was the tricky part - IIRC he had to 'vanish' for some 50 yrs after getting free (hence why I have him conquering/bullying/ruling the Hobgoblins at that time), during which time the Narfel/Raumather War was at full-swing. It wasn't until the very end of the war that the Raumathar began to experiment with unearthed (and forbidden) Imaskari technology. I theorize (from reading Frostfell) that their magic was more Bardic/Druidic in nature, but the war caused them to 'lose their way', as it were.

Yea, the story from Realms of Elves. As for bardic/druidic magic I speculated it had to do something with celtic-like (or proto) people in the Realms. There's stone circles and menhirs scattered everywhere and Silvanus, Oghma, Herne. What do you think happened to the ancient humans of Yuir, they seem to be of that type, did they vanish or migrate?

Fey?
Most of the artwork - especially the 3e stuff - of Hobgoblins is very reminiscent of oriental culture. I've also come across art of hobgoblins riding flying beasts and Rhinos! This lead me down that path... thinking of them in terms of having a large cross-section of mounted troops. I see them as an eastern hobgoblin culture strongly influenced by the Horsemen fighters around them, along with the encroaching Kara-Turans (which I used to call the 'Lung' peoples, but that is a bit confusing, so I now refer to them as the Haltai - same group, its just that 'Lung' was misnomer by the Imaskari who 1st encountered them.) The Shou were a completely seperate group of interlopers). Also, they had many humans still among their culture - willing (conquered) people and thralls - it was mostly the Hobgoblins that left Chu'ta Te (now Chukei) behind and became the Suren. The humans were okay taking a break from the raiding lifestyle, especially after the defeat of their leader, the Copper Demon, at the hands of Wo Mai (more info on that in The Hordelands and the 2e Book of Artifacts). The humans were the people who eventually became the Chukeins, from whom the novel hero General Batu came.

Ah, the Book of Artifacts that's one source I'd never look. I see that they appear ''easterly'', I meant about their earlier origins, from mythology they are related to fey (unseelie, sort of anti-fey). Remember when you speculated that Ladinion (original fey realm) was in the east, what if the Sundering ''bound'' Faerie to Toril, not just Evermeet, in other areas as well. Like when the dwarves appeared in the Yehimals at that time, after being shunned for the Black Diamond tragedy. Also there's few connections with Sossrim Kalmyks now that is revealed that Auril is the Queen of Air and Darkness.

There was a period of time, probably a few thousand years in length, when the northern pole of Toril froze-over (caused by the climactic holocaust the Sundering wreaked upon the world). Since the Pozi were a sea-faring people (and had discovered and settled in many lands far from Faerūn), and their culture was primarily located at the 'top' of the world (which was MUCH warmer back then - one can assume the axial tilt was greatly lessened as a result of the sundering), they were nearly completely destroyed. Some of their ruins and culture are only now being discovered now that the great Glacier is finally receding.

That is a cool story, I need to look into these Haltai, they seem interesting.

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MY history of Imaskar has them conquering many peoples and lands, not just on Toril, but on other worlds as well (likening them to the Goa'uld of Stargate). I also have another ethnic group from Earth (mentioned, I think, in one of the 2e religion books) preceding the Mulan peoples, which I dubbed 'the Dathites', who were kidnapped from along the northern Mediterranean (and proved to be most un-willing slaves eventually). I also have about a dozen 'survivor states' (post-Imaskar Imaskaran colonies), including some little-known ones like Tsharoon (Dragon mag), Thommar (Desert of Desolation), and Thazalhar (which The Hordelands boxed set clearly makes out to have been a distinct political entity at one time).

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That's how I picture them too, with a lot of other-crystal sphere and planar colonies, even discovering the process of Stargate-like ascension into pure energy forms. ''The Dathites'' that would be Jhaamdath? Thsharoon is from the Athalantar article, wonder about the name ''Athalantar'', they were Talfiric I think.

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Anyhow, they broke from the original Muhjari people who lived around The Golden Water, and settled in the then-fertile Raurin basin. They were later corrupted after discovering an ANCIENT temple to Aoskar, and after an unfortunate tragedy (they lost an entire city built around the temple) decided forever after to hate all gods. This was well before they even became an Empire. The second biggest turning point in their history was when the Shou arrived, fleeing their own world's catastrophe. Before then the Imaskari Artificers were infatuated with creating gates and exploring new worlds, but the Shou taught them the secrets of their Advanced Golemic Sciences, and thus began a new focus on creating arcane war machines, some of which were given their own awareness (which lead them down another unfortunate road - the summoning and binding of ever-greater 'spirits' to empower their macabre machines).

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That is a great idea of binding planar spirits into prime-mortal vessels. What if Imaskari kidnapped the Jews for the golem secrets. I know the Shou had clay golem soldiers. No matter it's non-canon Aoskar has to have a connection them. Personally I imagined him as an artificial god-construct. Also Neth, the Demiplane that Lives, would fit nice with Savras.

[quote]Although the Shou arrived in the Taan (Hordelands), they were given the lands of the massive Katakoro plateau, where they made their capital at what was to become Khazari. When the shou migrated east and began their take-over of Kara-Tur, their old lands were given to their Spirit-folk subjects and it became known as the Kingdom of Guge (that bit from The Hordelands). Of course, there was an even earlier people living there - a strange, non-human group (the Maviddi) similar to the Spirit Folk in appearance, but they preferred to dwell in massive, dark, anthill-like fortresses.

Hmmm... what group are short and secretive, fey-like with pointed ears, and prefer to live below ground?

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