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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jun 2010 : 01:16:05
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Here's the thing about a reset. No matter what you do, you're going to tick someone off. Roll back to 3E? Not far enough for some and the 4E fans will not like the idea. Roll back to 2E? 3E fans are disgruntled that they lose Shade and everything that came after. Roll back to 1E? The 'old grognards' are happy, but many other fans would not be pleased.
The only thing I've seen that worked was the Catalyst decision for Classic Battletech: go back to where it left off and simply tell the stories that lead to the Jihad and Dark Age. But that means those that aren't fans of 4E and the Spellplague have to accept it as happening.
To paraphrase (and misquote) Abe Lincoln: You can please some people all the time and all people some of the time, but not all the people all of the time. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2010 : 01:38:21
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Ashe speaks the truth. There's no way that everyone in the rather large and eclectic spectrum of Faerun-junkies is going to be happy with anything, so getting the biggest wodge thereof possible on board is all you can do.
I'd guess at the 2e, pre-ToT version (grey, gold, whatever, I'm a bit sketchy on pre-3e stuff) having the largest fan-base, but I really don't know. There does seem to be a stupendous number of Realms books released for it over rather a long time. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2010 : 01:56:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Here's the thing about a reset. No matter what you do, you're going to tick someone off. Roll back to 3E? Not far enough for some and the 4E fans will not like the idea. Roll back to 2E? 3E fans are disgruntled that they lose Shade and everything that came after. Roll back to 1E? The 'old grognards' are happy, but many other fans would not be pleased.
The only thing I've seen that worked was the Catalyst decision for Classic Battletech: go back to where it left off and simply tell the stories that lead to the Jihad and Dark Age. But that means those that aren't fans of 4E and the Spellplague have to accept it as happening.
To paraphrase (and misquote) Abe Lincoln: You can please some people all the time and all people some of the time, but not all the people all of the time.
Well, they've already ticked off a large portion of the fanbase... And with their present course of action, they are going to forever lose a large portion of that fanbase. Doing a reset won't get everyone back, but it would bring back more than what's there now.
And ironically, the reset would accomplish a lot of the stated goals of the Spellplague. 
As for the Jihad, that event ruined the BattleTech universe for me. Even telling the stories that led up to the Jihad can't change the fact that there is much about the Jihad that contradicts logic and/or prior canon. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Jun 2010 04:54:03 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2010 : 02:12:27
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Maybe Wizards should use the STAR WARS SAGA model. Release a Campaign Guide for different time periods...
I would buy a campaign guide for the Magelords period... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2010 : 05:31:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Here's the thing about a reset. No matter what you do, you're going to tick someone off. Roll back to 3E? Not far enough for some and the 4E fans will not like the idea. Roll back to 2E? 3E fans are disgruntled that they lose Shade and everything that came after. Roll back to 1E? The 'old grognards' are happy, but many other fans would not be pleased.
The only thing I've seen that worked was the Catalyst decision for Classic Battletech: go back to where it left off and simply tell the stories that lead to the Jihad and Dark Age. But that means those that aren't fans of 4E and the Spellplague have to accept it as happening.
To paraphrase (and misquote) Abe Lincoln: You can please some people all the time and all people some of the time, but not all the people all of the time.
Well, they've already ticked off a large portion of the fanbase... And with their present course of action, they are going to forever lose a large portion of that fanbase. Doing a reset won't get everyone back, but it would bring back more than what's there now.
And ironically, the reset would accomplish a lot of the stated goals of the Spellplague.
As for the Jihad, that event ruined the BattleTech universe for me. Even telling the stories that led up to the Jihad can't change the fact that there is much about the Jihad that contradicts logic and/or prior canon.
Minor derailment of thread
Well, since I've been doing a lot of work on BattleTech stuff recently (damn those 'Con games); I've been reading up a bit on what's been published since the last time I seriously bought a BT sourcebook. And, they are doing a fair job of explaining a lot behind the 'logic' of the WoBbies starting the Jihad.
1) The overally 'Master' that's been heading up the WoB was none other than the 'real' Thomas Marik (no big surprise), who was injured a LOT more in the explosion that nearly killed him (like 35%-40% bionics). He became very insane about taking over the IS, but still had all the political power of a Marik. And the 'fake' Marik was his puppet on the throne all these years, so he still was the defacto leader of the FWL.
2) Wolf's Dragoons caught on to WoB's shenanigans earlier than most and created an Allied Mercenary Command of like-minded Mercs to try an oust them from Earth. Unfortunately, the Master was a bit smarter than even they thought and had everyone believing WoB's army was FAR smaller than it actually was. And, they hired a LOT of mercs to do their dirty work. Which led to Waco's Rangers starting the razing of Outreach. After all that, the Dragoon's were down to a single regiment, Northwind Highlanders were blockaded on their own planet and other mercs had their hands tied as well.
3) The fact that WoB snuck into the home systems and capital planets of ALL the houses of the IS and proceeded to perform orbital bombardments on them, led to a LOT of confusion as well.
Granted, the logic behind their actions is flawed, but they ARE insane to start with. Kinda like asking the Joker why he killed someone...
[/end derailment] |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2010 : 06:07:39
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Just continuing the slight derailment for a moment...
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Minor derailment of thread
Well, since I've been doing a lot of work on BattleTech stuff recently (damn those 'Con games); I've been reading up a bit on what's been published since the last time I seriously bought a BT sourcebook. And, they are doing a fair job of explaining a lot behind the 'logic' of the WoBbies starting the Jihad.
Indeed, I'm inclined to agree. As much as I rallied against the establishment of the 'Jihad' and 'Dark Age' eras for the setting, I've now discovered particular aspects of both eras that I have come to enjoy.
Re: the debate about internal and consistent "logic" within the BattleTech universe is, at least in my view, somewhat flawed. We're talking about a game that features giant metal robots. Logic can't always be too stringently applied, otherwise the entire atmosphere of the universe is prone to damage.
quote:
1) The overally 'Master' that's been heading up the WoB was none other than the 'real' Thomas Marik (no big surprise), who was injured a LOT more in the explosion that nearly killed him (like 35%-40% bionics). He became very insane about taking over the IS, but still had all the political power of a Marik. And the 'fake' Marik was his puppet on the throne all these years, so he still was the defacto leader of the FWL.
And, interestingly enough, Catalyst designers have stated many times that they've really not deviated all that much from pre-existing FASA and FANPRO lore for establishing the "real" Thomas Marik as the Master. [I suspect this might be somewhat similar to the argument that the foundation of the Spellplague was laid way back in 1e Realmslore -- it just really depends on "how" you read it in light of the new info we have now.]
I think some people tend to forget just how long the Word of Blake have been part of the universe. Many, apparently, incorrectly assume that both the Word and the Master are recent setting constructs -- largely introduced with the coming of the 'Jihad' related material. And that's simply not the case. The 'Jihad' books merely gave the Word a more prominent position in the setting sources now being published by CGL.
quote:
3) The fact that WoB snuck into the home systems and capital planets of ALL the houses of the IS and proceeded to perform orbital bombardments on them, led to a LOT of confusion as well.
Well, it seems apparent now that there was actually very little "sneaking" involved, at least initially. The Blake Documents source suggests that the first shots taken in the Blakist Nuclear Temper Tantrum were poorly thought out knee-jerk reactions to both the shock failure of the Second Star League and the eventual construction of a Word of Blake-led Inner Sphere force to eradicate the Clans of Kerensky. Those Blakist WarShips stationed in orbit around the majority of Successor State capital worlds were, for the most part, to be considered gifts from the Word for the various Houses. And news reports exchanged between the factions before the Jihad indicate some potential truth to this.
quote:
Granted, the logic behind their actions is flawed, but they ARE insane to start with. Kinda like asking the Joker why he killed someone...
I think it's problematic to label the entirety of the Word of Blake as insane. Let's remember that there are many internal "fractions" [as I like to call them] operating inside the organisation -- each with their own view on how to conduct themselves in the conflict. I mean, it's obvious, now, that Cameron St. Jamaias' efforts weren't largely supported by the Master. And the Manei Domini seem to have their own agenda as well. Not to mention all post-ComStar Reformation Focht-supporters who might have joined up with the Word with the noblest of intentions, but were soon shattered when they saw those intentions burned away in the horrors of nuclear conflict.
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2010 : 07:30:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
And Wooly, the curiosity is killing me here, so not to start a debate, but what are the parts you would have liked to see changed?
Well, I personally felt that the War of the Spider Queen was absolutely pointless. I'd leave that out, entirely.
I've mentioned elsewhere my thoughts for how Shade's return should have been handled, but I'll add an addendum here. When I first saw, in a comic shop Previews catalog, that Shade was returning, I assumed that it's return would be used the same way the Time of Troubles was: to provide an in-game explanation for an edition change. I was excited about that... And then we had a boatload of changes with no explanation, even when they had the opportunity (an extra line, under the description of the Thunder Blessing in the FRCS, would have explained how the previously non-magical dwarves could suddenly use arcane magic).
I like the elven Crusade, though I would have changed the epilogue: I think 5 years is not enough time to reclaim the ruins.
I liked the Year of Rogue Dragons trilogy, but I never felt that the threat went much beyond the Moonsea area. Even a couple of interludes, with rampaging dragons elsewhere, would have made it feel like more of a Realms-Shaking Event, and not a Region-Shaking Event.
Also, I would have followed up on some of the 2E plot-threads. Specifically, the Manshoon Wars and the Harper Schism.
And Halaster would still be around in some form. Either contingency magic would have restored him, or we'd have some interesting Manshoon/Halaster amalgam, or he wouldn't have blown up in the first place. I couldn't finish reading Expedition to Undermountain, knowing that his unexplained death was part of it. It also didn't help that after establishing what magic wouldn't work in Undermountain, just a few pages later we find an NPC successfully using some of that magic. 
We would have gotten to explore the aftermath of Cormyr's war with the Devil Dragon.
I think Bane's return would be left mostly as it is, but with a couple more hints supporting my theory that he hasn't really returned. The hints are already there, but I'd add a little more.
Things like that. There's more, but that's a good starting point.
My Realms of the 3E era would not have been identical to the published Realms of 3E, but there would have been a lot of common points betwixt them.
Uhm... All the of items you listed above (Manshoon Wars, Harper Schism, Elven Crusade, Magicalization-of-the-Dwarves, Cormyr after the death of Azoun) were followed up completely, and with incredible sophistication and acumen.
However,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think Bane's return would be left mostly as it is, but with a couple more hints supporting my theory that he hasn't really returned. The hints are already there, but I'd add a little more.
that was not... Your theory was never fully supported, that Bane "has not fully returned". As unfortunate as that may be, you don't always get what you want...
Quick aside, Wooly; when *was* the last time you played Dungeons and Dragons? |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2010 : 10:24:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Here's the thing about a reset. No matter what you do, you're going to tick someone off. Roll back to 3E? Not far enough for some and the 4E fans will not like the idea. Roll back to 2E? 3E fans are disgruntled that they lose Shade and everything that came after. Roll back to 1E? The 'old grognards' are happy, but many other fans would not be pleased.
In many ways the end of 2nd ed. is the solution that would most likely appeal to the largest number of fans if a complete reset was done, but a single "Ed Greenwoods Realms" would have the potential to attract curiosity from fans of all editions, including the novel readers who have no interest in what happens in a gaming product, especially with a reset. This is something that could be done without it really being a reset of the setting/rules, an alternative work that gives a coherent description of the background ideas and original coherency, without it being a more or less declared "start from scratch". And if it is really successful? Well, then there is nothing wrong with continuing the idea.
But again, its not exactly something I am holding my breath waiting for.
And Wooly: Is that all?  I was expecting something much worse or "heretical".
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2010 : 11:18:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Uhm... All the of items you listed above (Manshoon Wars, Harper Schism, Elven Crusade, Magicalization-of-the-Dwarves, Cormyr after the death of Azoun) were followed up completely, and with incredible sophistication and acumen.
Really? What source explains how dwarves suddenly had access to magic? How was the Manshoon Wars followed up on, other than a blurb that ended them? Where, other than with a PrC, was the Harper Schism actually developed? What is this Cormyr sourceboook, because I obviously missed it?
And about the Crusade, I maintain that five years was not enough time to turn Myth Drannor from a ruined city full of monsters and corrupt magic into a thriving metropolis.
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think Bane's return would be left mostly as it is, but with a couple more hints supporting my theory that he hasn't really returned. The hints are already there, but I'd add a little more.
that was not... Your theory was never fully supported, that Bane "has not fully returned". As unfortunate as that may be, you don't always get what you want...
Actually, there were plenty of hints indicating that the original Bane was not fully back on-line. Bane 2.0 did not use his old symbol. Bane 2.0 used Xvim's colors, not his own. Bane 2.0 used some servitor beasts that Xvim preferred, and that he'd never before used. Add those hints to the fact that Xvim had gathered as much of Daddy's power as possible, and the fact that it's not unknown for Realms deities to steal the names -- and thus worship -- of dead deities, and you've got a good case for saying Xvim is Bane. It's not definite, though, which is why I say I would push that in my own ideal Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Quick aside, Wooly; when *was* the last time you played Dungeons and Dragons?
It's been since 2E. Not that that matters for my love of the Realms. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Jun 2010 11:21:21 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2010 : 23:46:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Just curious, did you run Greyhawk with Basic or run Griffin with AD&D?
Oh, and maybe you remember this Markus(I asked the question about a month ago, but it seems nobody knew the answer); I only own the Moon Design Publications slightly expanded version of Griffin Mountain; did the original contain the same tribal names as the Uthgard in the Realms? Jaquays worked on both Griffin and Savage Frontier, so its clear that this came from him, but I am curious as to where it was used first.
Jaquays worked on the original as well, and he even has a few pieces of artwork in there - at least two of which I am positive I've seen in D&D products!
I am no expert on the North, so I am unfamiliar with the Uthgardt tribal names, but the three main tribes mentioned for the Balazar region are the Elkoi, the Trilus, and the Dykene. Many smaller clans are mentioned, but none are named AFAIK.
Just looking through this - I forgot just how useful a book this was. Each section has tables in it to be used for that region, including encounters, names, weather, random events, plot hooks and job offers...
A really nice tome.. no wonder I fit it into GH. 
It replaced my Rovers/Wolf/Tiger Nomads regions. I actually used T&T rules back then - neither D&D nor Runequest. I was a beginner DM, and our group already had Runequest, D&D, and Chivalry & Sorcery, and Traveller GMs, so I became the DM of the simplest ruleset. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jun 2010 23:49:48 |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 00:02:17
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Now that some time has passed, I find that I don’t mind the 100 year jump or even the Spellplague so much as I dislike the 4E rules and their feel in terms of playing D&D in the post-Spellplague Realms.
My players enjoy the rules, but to me they just don’t “feel” right.
In my opinion the Pathfinder system would be a far better rules system with which to present the post-Spellplague Realms for game play.*
As for a grand reset….hrm, maybe. You can “Greenwood-up” such a reset all you want, but if the game rules suck it won’t matter one bit to those who play D&D in the Realms. And if you add too much lore, what’s the point of a DM using the Realms anyway?
Any “grand reset” source material should at least be as cognizant as the gray box material was in giving details, but not too much, so that DMs can get the feel for the setting and flesh out the parts they want to use.
*EDIT: I just realized I've broken with my long-held belief that any setting is best played only with the rules set that was designed around it. The Spellplague, etc...was written in large part to shoehorn the 4E rules onto the Realms, yet I don't feel those rules are the best way to play D&D in the 4E Realms. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 08 Jun 2010 16:13:04 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 02:39:00
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Hmm... Mr M's got the right of it (again! )
To use the BattleTech analogy again; I stopped playing BTech not (entirely) because of the lore, but because the ClickyTech sucked (and with the number of dials, numbers on the base, etc. it didn't make play EASIER, it just made it so you didn't need a sourcebook).
Now that ClickyTech has died it's well deserved death, I'm enjoying BTech again and picking up books again.
Heck, at the last con, me & some other grognards even discovered that the ClickyTech minis are wonderful for Solaris matches using a 2" hex.
Does this mean that I may learn to appreciate the SpellPlague if the rules are to my liking? I don't know.
Edit & PS: Oh, and Sage, I know it's not fair to classify all the Wobbies as insane, but after they orchestrated Jaime Wolf's destruction then nuked Outreach AND NAIS (Team Banzai/New Avalon Cavaliers 4EVAR), I can't find forgiveness in my heart.  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 08 Jun 2010 02:41:04 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 05:45:59
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Given enough time, even two objects on opposites ends of the universe will eventually gravitate toward each other.
So yeah... I agree with Mr. misc 100% |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 06:04:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Edit & PS: Oh, and Sage, I know it's not fair to classify all the Wobbies as insane, but after they orchestrated Jaime Wolf's destruction then nuked Outreach AND NAIS (Team Banzai/New Avalon Cavaliers 4EVAR), I can't find forgiveness in my heart.
Ah. See, I never cared all that much for the Dragoons. Can't say I hated them, but I didn't really like them either. Their treatment at the hands of the Blakists, thus, didn't really bother me all that much. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 13:37:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Jaquays worked on the original as well, and he even has a few pieces of artwork in there - at least two of which I am positive I've seen in D&D products!
I am no expert on the North, so I am unfamiliar with the Uthgardt tribal names, but the three main tribes mentioned for the Balazar region are the Elkoi, the Trilus, and the Dykene. Many smaller clans are mentioned, but none are named AFAIK.
Just looking through this - I forgot just how useful a book this was. Each section has tables in it to be used for that region, including encounters, names, weather, random events, plot hooks and job offers...
A really nice tome.. no wonder I fit it into GH.
It replaced my Rovers/Wolf/Tiger Nomads regions. I actually used T&T rules back then - neither D&D nor Runequest. I was a beginner DM, and our group already had Runequest, D&D, and Chivalry & Sorcery, and Traveller GMs, so I became the DM of the simplest ruleset.
I was thinking about the clan names, not the tribal names. Sorry.
The Balazar clans mentioned in my version are Sable, Great bison, Red Sable, Impala, Great Sable,Barking Deer, Thunder Lizard, Tiger, Silver Hawk, Griffin, Crocodile, Black Dog, White Goat, Blue Bear, River Snake, Tree Ghost, Black Lion, Brown Bear and Cave Bear.
Quite a few of these can be found among the Uthgard of Faerun, so its most likely a Jaquays thing. I seem to remember having read somewhere that much of The Savage Frontier came from another product that was never published, but I don't think it was a Runequest product. If the clan names are not found in the original Griffin Mountain it seems likely that they were then taken from the same source later.
Looking at this again makes me think it might be time for a good, long break from the Realms and AD&D. I was always more of a BRP person in the first place and this is really one of the best products published for any game.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 21:26:54
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As I said, I looked back through it the other night, and didn't come across and clan names - they may have been added in the expanded version you have.
As an aside, I found an NPC from the Hordelands in the Dragonquest rulebook 2 days ago.
I know we got Karsus from that game, along with some of the Netheril stuff (I think), and a few other odds and ends after TSR purchased it, but I had no idea that the 'starter adventure' from that tome was also mined for goodies.
And studying the Wilderlands map last night, I can see how Ed's Dragonreach was influenced by it (similar place names, and the shape is also reminiscent of that setting). I also find it very amusing (in re-reading it) that Blackmoor was also an official part of that setting - that makes at least 3 settings it was officially part of that I know of. No wonder I felt the need to put a 'Blackmoor' of my own in the north (east of ten Tens) - it is a fantasy-staple from the earliest days of the hobby! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 23:02:04
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There is possibly great news for FR fans, maybe. Nevermind, forget I said that. Besides it would be awhile before you would know anyways.
Can I get any more ambiguous?
*whistles contently* |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 23:54:14
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Matt, it isn't often I am 'stimulated' by a man.
Now that you've gotten me 'all sexed up', my imagination is RACING. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 07:40:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
There is possibly great news for FR fans, maybe. Nevermind, forget I said that. Besides it would be awhile before you would know anyways.
Can I get any more ambiguous?
*whistles contently*
That's just evil. I am impressed. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 07:43:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And studying the Wilderlands map last night, I can see how Ed's Dragonreach was influenced by it (similar place names, and the shape is also reminiscent of that setting). I also find it very amusing (in re-reading it) that Blackmoor was also an official part of that setting - that makes at least 3 settings it was officially part of that I know of. No wonder I felt the need to put a 'Blackmoor' of my own in the north (east of ten Tens) - it is a fantasy-staple from the earliest days of the hobby!
I have been wondering about getting an old version of that setting, how is it and is it worth the high prizes it goes for on Noble Knight? |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 08:08:21
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I'd roll things back to sometime in the 1370s, pre-Spellplague. No need for reconciliation, the material as of 4e simply never happened and future material in any putative 5e FR would not automatically assume any of it was ever put into print.
That said I would not restrict sourcebook and novel writers from exploring any specific portions of the 4e material that might be worth salvaging and presenting in ways that actually conform to previous canon and don't prove disruptive to the setting.
I worry though that the Realms may have alienated too much of its prior audience to survive as a viable setting IP in any subsequent editions. And that's unfortunate, because it was my favorite vanilla setting and it was quite inspiring to me (especially the 2e sourcebooks, even though I never started till 3e). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 10:07:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I have been wondering about getting an old version of that setting, how is it and is it worth the high prizes it goes for on Noble Knight
I have both, and I prefer the newer edition (put out about 6 yrs ago, or so). The original is nice for historic reasons but the new book is better put-together. the old maps were cool, because there were so many and when you put them together it was huge - the new one comes with a map approx. 20x28. However, the originals were 'tan&black' (a yellowish beige color), and the new one is pretty full-color. The original were probably more useful for those early DMs, in that he could fill those big maps in with all his own goodies. The newer one covers too large an area (the whole campaign) to really be useful - you'd have to make your own smaller, regional maps.
When you look at those old settings it is almost comical how bad the 'fantasy' was - the names they chose for stuff was horribly derivative - "Uther Pentwergen sea", and "Altanis". Not to mention such gems as 'Vast lake'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 10:59:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have both, and I prefer the newer edition (put out about 6 yrs ago, or so). The original is nice for historic reasons but the new book is better put-together. the old maps were cool, because there were so many and when you put them together it was huge - the new one comes with a map approx. 20x28. However, the originals were 'tan&black' (a yellowish beige color), and the new one is pretty full-color. The original were probably more useful for those early DMs, in that he could fill those big maps in with all his own goodies. The newer one covers too large an area (the whole campaign) to really be useful - you'd have to make your own smaller, regional maps.
When you look at those old settings it is almost comical how bad the 'fantasy' was - the names they chose for stuff was horribly derivative - "Uther Pentwergen sea", and "Altanis". Not to mention such gems as 'Vast lake'.
Thanks. The names sound better than Greyhawk at its worst or some of the Dragonlance names. The village of Flotsam? And there is of course the Vast in the Realms to. But names can always be changed. The old maps sounds good and from what I have heard the setting was far from overly detailed in its early days.
Which one would you go for if you were a grumbling Grognard that gets more and more reactionary where Rpg's are concerned as the years go by? |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 11:31:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
I'd roll things back to sometime in the 1370s, pre-Spellplague. No need for reconciliation, the material as of 4e simply never happened and future material in any putative 5e FR would not automatically assume any of it was ever put into print.
What about the droves of us that don't mind post-Spellplague era and some of the plots that have been going on? |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 11:38:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
I'd roll things back to sometime in the 1370s, pre-Spellplague. No need for reconciliation, the material as of 4e simply never happened and future material in any putative 5e FR would not automatically assume any of it was ever put into print.
What about the droves of us that don't mind post-Spellplague era and some of the plots that have been going on?
That's the problem with a retcon; you would end up with making even more problems than the Spellplague did. I am curious Matt, as a fan of both the old and new Realms; how would you feel about a book by Ed that detailed the pre-published Realms? One without rules of course; would this be something that could interest fans of the Realms from all categories? This would then not be part of a retcon, more of a one-shot thing, but could still give something to those who don't like the way things have developed and would have historic interest to others.
I don't think its something we will ever see, but dreaming is allowed. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 11:40:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
I'd roll things back to sometime in the 1370s, pre-Spellplague. No need for reconciliation, the material as of 4e simply never happened and future material in any putative 5e FR would not automatically assume any of it was ever put into print.
What about the droves of us that don't mind post-Spellplague era and some of the plots that have been going on?
What about the droves of us that do mind the post-Spellplague era and some of the plots that have been going on? Right or wrong, WotC has divided the FR community. That's why I personally maintain that it's best to split the new version off under a new name and roll back to an earlier version, essentially creating two different FR settings. That's how it's perceived by some already... And even that wouldn't make everyone happy, but it'd bring back a lot of the fans that have been driven away. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 11:45:04
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| Splitting the Realms will shatter the fanbase more than anything else. I just don't see the massive divide that is described here on CK. Every convention I go to and every game day and FLGS, I see the Realms being played and enjoyed. I only ever see the dissention here on CK. That being said, I too miss some of the old stuff, so I don’t want you to think I am 100% pleased with everything that has transpired. I am just providing some perspective. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 12:51:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Splitting the Realms will shatter the fanbase more than anything else. I just don't see the massive divide that is described here on CK. Every convention I go to and every game day and FLGS, I see the Realms being played and enjoyed. I only ever see the dissention here on CK. That being said, I too miss some of the old stuff, so I don’t want you to think I am 100% pleased with everything that has transpired. I am just providing some perspective.
So am I. As I see it, the fanbase is already shattered. I'm just wanting to bring some folks back. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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We can all have our cake and eat it! ... Maybe
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