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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 13:57:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Would everyone in Waterdeep be comfortable if a mage in the service of the city killed a few thousand orcs with a couple of spells?
Outside of Bigby's Crushing Tactical Nuke, what spells do you know of that can kill -- in a single casting -- more than 20 people or so?
Well, there's plenty. but off the top of my head:
1. Control weather cast then casting Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
2. Control weather with cloudkill
3. Control weather with incendiary cloud.
4. Meteor Swarm (i think i missed named this before.)
5. If you have a few mages, delayed blast fireball or chain lightning would wreck enemy formations. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 13:59:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Dear Riverwind, do not underestimate the prowess of mercenaries. About their loyalty, there are many mercenary guilds with great loyalty to the client (Red Ravens?). Some of them are the main asset in keeping the order in the cities, like Flaming Fist in Baldur's Gate. They were even more reliable than corrupted guards of Amn.
I think mercs have loyalty to money and to who might be winning the war.
Not everyone, my friend, not everyone. 
Well, you and Imight know that, because we read the books. But if you were running a nation, would you put your faith in mercenaries? |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 14:05:08
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| Lord Nasher is one of such rulers who believe in potential of such warriors and tries to enlist them in his personal guard A.K.A Neverwinter Nine. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 17:28:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I want to thank everyone for the great replies.
So it seems most people here think the walls of the city could be manned with a pretty small force. But even in peacetime, if you did 12 hour shifts, 50% of that force would be off duty. Also, a certain level of the force will always be out, due to sickness, leave, training, AWOL, etc.
Well, I don't, actually. I think that in peacetime the walls do not need to be manned at all. Just some guards in strategic towers, and perhaps a couple of roaming patrols along the length of the walls. Although invoking real earth examples is always a risky proposition - Hadrian's Wall, the Great Wall of China, and, in general the border of the Roman Empire in the first century AD, or (in fiction) "The Wall" in the A Song of Ice and Fire series - keep troop concentrations at suitable locations, and have the rest patrolled on an as needed basis.
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
So let's say 50% of the Guard is needed for the City, that only leaves around 600 troops for an expeditionary force. I would think Waterdeep would have a few hundred heavy cavalry, and a few hundred expert long bowmen in addition to at least a few hundred infantry. Also you would need a supply train, blacksmiths, armorers, ranches (to handle the cattle for the army,) and some type of force to protect the supply train. You would also need pathfinders (scouts, light cavalry,) engineers, (ax men to clear forest, experts to bridge rivers,) and units specialized in siege warfare (miners, and seige weapon specialist.) So you could see you quickly start to run up the level of troops, not to mention keeping some force in reserve.
True enough, but here you assume that Waterdeep requires an expeditionary army. As a general rule, it does not, because its policy is not to pursue geographical conquest. Of course, this was not always the case (again, Raurlor), and in those times the armed forces were hugely expanded to match the city's ambitions. In cases where Waterdeep needs expeditionary forces, it is more likely to just hire them as needed, which neatly leads into...
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
It seems that alot of you guys have Waterdeep depending on other organizations for the city's protection (ie, her nobles, mercenaries, knightly orders, or the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors.) The problem, as I see it, is that most people don't do things for free. Take the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, they're going to want something in return for the service, if they're willing to do so at all. Unfortunetly, not everyone believes in the common good. Their attitude could be, "what do we care if the Way Inn is under attack, what does that have to do with us?"
Again, very true, but it happens to be the policy that Waterdeep pursues. Yes, there is a cost attached to using external groups, but that's a policy/business consideration (along the lines of outsourcing certain functions or keeping them in-house; both have costs attached). In many cases, paying "spike prices" for outsiders, but paying them only when you need them, can be more advantageous than maintaining a big standing force that incurs huge overhead costs. In the complex environment that Waterdeep operates in, the costs resulting from the use of "external service providers" do not always have to be monetary - they can be concessions (the right to establish a guildhouse, say). And their motivation does not have to be "the common good". To quote G'Kar "The Universe is run on the interaction of three forces: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." Motivation does not matter as much as results.
But it's true that the current policies are not foolproof - reliance on mercenaries is fine if they are available, but what happens if they happen to be unavailable (big war elsewhere?). In the end, it's all about risk management... |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 17:32:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Well, you and Imight know that, because we read the books. But if you were running a nation, would you put your faith in mercenaries?
The question is - do you have a choice? Relying on mercenaries rather than a large standing army is a political and economical choice. I am quite convinced that, if unlimited resources were available, of course all rulers would prefer perfectly loyal standing armies, rather than mercs. Second, a lot of mercs are pros, are careful to keep the professionalism up (commands higher fees, you see), and people know this. Nothing beats a repeat customer, unless you can make a killing through betrayal (and can get away with it... very important).
Plus, standing armies may not be so loyal to the rulers after all (once more, Raurlor). |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 21:02:52
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I'm not sure where the underlying assumption comes from that Waterdeep is unable to defend itself.
A number of concepts have been thrown out there, that haven't had much basis in either real world or FR history.
One argument was that the Guard is too small for an organization that defends a city the size of Waterdeep. That for a city with a population of roughly 125,000, 1200 permanent soldiers would be too few. On a historical note, a 1-1000 ratio would have meant that the 1930s US Army, at roughly 35-40,000 to a population of roughly 100 million, would have been woefully unable to maintain basic border security. Yet they did.
The government of Waterdeep has adopted what can only be described as an extremely laissez-faire attitude to most areas of governance. That doesn't mean that they haven't approached the defense of their realm with utmost care.
That laissez-faire attitude has increased trade wealth in the city, and led many powerful beings of all alignments to reside within its borders. Judicious uses of power externally have led to many alliances and the interest of many other actors in keeping Waterdeep as it is.
So when a threat appears, many powerful actors are available to act against it. Many actors which have no desire or ability to take over control of Waterdeep themselves, but have a very vested interest in maintaining the status quo.
This is to say nothing of the many and varied uses of intelligence in the form of agents, divination, bribery, etc. What do you suppose all those adventurers are doing in the area? Many are bribed, cajoled, or threatened into carrying out missions on behalf of the Lords - it doesn't take a standing army to deter an orc horde when a single, well-placed dagger can end the life of the one charismatic leader, leaving the horde to collapse into its typical chaos and ending the threat to the city.
Defense, despite what a lot of people believe, isn't based on having the most men under arms, or the most powerful weapons. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 22:31:30
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quote:
True enough, but here you assume that Waterdeep requires an expeditionary army. As a general rule, it does not, because its policy is not to pursue geographical conquest. Of course, this was not always the case (again, Raurlor), and in those times the armed forces were hugely expanded to match the city's ambitions. In cases where Waterdeep needs expeditionary forces, it is more likely to just hire them as needed, which neatly leads into...
Again, very true, but it happens to be the policy that Waterdeep pursues. Yes, there is a cost attached to using external groups, but that's a policy/business consideration (along the lines of outsourcing certain functions or keeping them in-house; both have costs attached). In many cases, paying "spike prices" for outsiders, but paying them only when you need them, can be more advantageous than maintaining a big standing force that incurs huge overhead costs. In the complex environment that Waterdeep operates in, the costs resulting from the use of "external service providers" do not always have to be monetary - they can be concessions (the right to establish a guildhouse, say). And their motivation does not have to be "the common good". To quote G'Kar "The Universe is run on the interaction of three forces: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." Motivation does not matter as much as results.
But it's true that the current policies are not foolproof - reliance on mercenaries is fine if they are available, but what happens if they happen to be unavailable (big war elsewhere?). In the end, it's all about risk management...
Waterdeep has sent armies to Dragonspear Castle and to Everseeka, so it does seem they need an expeditionary force. Also they would need one that is well trained. Also, if you're not willing to send your own sons and daughters into the fight, I'm guessing the war is not worth fighting. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 23:05:22
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The answer from Mr.Greenwood:
Hi again, all. Riverwind, I sent your query to Ed, and here's his reply:
Hi, Riverwind!
1. The 1,200 strength of the City Guard is its mandated-by-the-Open-Lord BARE MINIMUM (it's never supposed to fall below that without triggering standing orders to hire replacements from the militia trainees drilled at Castle Waterdeep. That 1,200 figure is the publicly-announced strength of fully-armored veteran Guardsmen (not to be confused with the Watch; by the 1400s, they are combined), not the true strength. The Lords want to keep the true muscle of the Guard secret, so as to be able to deliver "nasty surprises" to anyone contemplating armed insurrection, invasion, etc.
The garrison of the Castle, the inhabitants of the griffon-rider base inside upper Mount Waterdeep, and the Skullport forces are all NOT included in this figure. At any one time, there tend to be 600-700 partly-trained "sword-ready" trainees who can be pressed into Guard service in a trice (and will be quite effective, assuming some existing Guardsmen survive to be their officers).
The Navy is largely NDA'd, but as published lore (KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD) reminds us all, there is a harbor defense force of merfolk, and as RUINS OF UNDERMOUNTAIN mentions, the navy makes use of the Seacaves and the shaft to move vessels to and from Skullport just as traders do.
One hinted-at but not "spelled out" factor is Khelben, Laeral, and Piergeiron's trusted personal mages all policing the Guard, Watch, and Navy to keep them free of corruption, and doing the same to the Watchful Order, who in turn are used to openly watch over and assist the Guard and the Watch (patrolling with both). This guards against Palace coups and against any infiltrator or noble faction managing to subvert, blackmail, or replace and impersonate more of any of the services than a handful of specific individuals.
2. Some ethical considerations; it depends on the city-state. Most will blast away, using the "better a spell than spend more time and lives," however. See the opening (and just before the climax) scenes of CITY OF SPLENDOR (the novel Elaine and I wrote, not the game products bearing that name) for what defending Waterdeep can turn into, very swiftly.
I hope these replies help. Feel free to ask more, though I see THO has pretty capably addressed most of the Waterdeep concerns in the thread you started.
So saith Ed, creator of the Realms, Waterdeep, the Guard, Watch, and Navy, and so on...
love,
THO |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 23:08:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Waterdeep has sent armies to Dragonspear Castle and to Everseeka, so it does seem they need an expeditionary force. Also they would need one that is well trained. Also, if you're not willing to send your own sons and daughters into the fight, I'm guessing the war is not worth fighting.
There's one thing better than sending your own sons and daughters to fight, and that's sending somebody else's. That's how the Foreign Legion got started  .
The thing is, expeditionary forces are required only on an exceptional basis, under Waterdeep's current foreign policy. Keeping a large expeditionary force on a permanent basis is going to cost HUGE amounts of money, which can only come from one source - taxing the population. Plus, again, having large armed forces with little on their hands is probably a recipe for disaster anyway.
In recent events (the Dragonspear war, Evereska, and I'd also add the Reclamation War in Tethyr), only very few members of the standing armed forces were sent by Waterdeep - Waterdeep just got volunteers (in an RPG world, this tends to mean "adventurers") and mercenaries for the occasion, send them in, get the job done (or not, but you do not have that kind of guarantee when using a standing army either; the way the D&D universe is structured, adventurers are probably better trained and equipped than the Guard anyway), and not shed too many tears if not many come back, "Just some hired swords and troublemakers", after all. |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 23:23:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Waterdeep has sent armies to Dragonspear Castle and to Everseeka, so it does seem they need an expeditionary force.
Both of those were in response to an immediate crisis, which is exactly what Waterdeep's military is designed for. A short, sharp engagement, with decisive results, which allows for the return to business as usual. Literally.
I think you need to take a closer look at the historical record, most pertinently. The idea of a large standing army is a rare one.
First and foremost, maintaining a large military is really expensive. Like you, I have no desire to get into any kind of real-world debate here, but take a look at the numbers in the current US budget. Historically, those state actors which didn't require significant forces for immediate defense did without them. Your typical medieval or Renaissance state/city-state/whathaveyou didn't maintain much, if any, standing army. Go back and look at why the Magna Carta was signed, why Parliament rebelled against Charles I, etc.
Expensive government acquisitions require significant sources of government taxes. Waterdeep's current raison d'etre is as a merchant city. Merchants don't like taxes. And Waterdeep has competitors. Competitors who can offer fewer taxes. Which would lessen the amount of merchant traffic. Which would be doubly painful for an expansionist state with a budding army. Why trade in Waterdeep if Baldur's Gate will do just as well?
In short, Waterdeep doesn't need an expeditionary force - they've trained and provisioned ones well enough in the recent past with success. Why change what's worked?
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Also they would need one that is well trained. Also, if you're not willing to send your own sons and daughters into the fight, I'm guessing the war is not worth fighting.
To take the first first, Waterdeep's armies are well-trained. The rank-and-file guard is generally seen in 3rd edition as above 1st level, often with fighter levels. Their leaders are well above that, and that's excluding the magic-users and elite forces such as the Grey Hands. They form the cadre. Then you've got seasoned mercenaries, a whole slew of adventurers, and seasoned forces provided my various city forces, like the nobles, the guilds, etc. The latter are all interested in advancing themselves within the city hierarchy, so they have no interest in providing forces which won't be bringing glory onto both the city, but also, and more importantly, themselves.
And your last statement is something that many politicians might spout, regardless of background, country, or ideology. Most of them, however, don't send their sons and daughter into the fight. Which raises the question of just how true it must be, wouldn't you say? Certainly, from a mercantile perspective, it's at least as easy to send some sellsword out to die as it would be the child you've spent a lifetime grooming.
Edit: OK, everybody stop posting until I get my word in! I'm tired of finishing up just to see someone else make the same point, often better!  |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
Edited by - capnvan on 19 Apr 2010 23:25:13 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36894 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 00:40:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Would everyone in Waterdeep be comfortable if a mage in the service of the city killed a few thousand orcs with a couple of spells?
Outside of Bigby's Crushing Tactical Nuke, what spells do you know of that can kill -- in a single casting -- more than 20 people or so?
Well, there's plenty. but off the top of my head:
1. Control weather cast then casting Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
2. Control weather with cloudkill
3. Control weather with incendiary cloud.
4. Meteor Swarm (i think i missed named this before.)
5. If you have a few mages, delayed blast fireball or chain lightning would wreck enemy formations.
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere is going to need a continuous mass of water to be effective. At most, matching it with control weather will give you a layer of ice on the ground, and maybe temporarily immobilize some folks.
Cloudkill creates a 20x20 cloud. What that's going to do with Control Weather is beyond me. But after a round or two, people are going to be running from it. I'd say you'd be hard pressed to kill 50 people with it, and that's only if they're tightly packed.
Same story for incendiary cloud.
Meteor Swarm is the closet you've named to something that could be considered mass destruction, though it again loses its effectiveness if your opponents aren't packed in tight.
And yeah, delayed blast fireballs and lightning bolts could wreak formations -- but neither is going to kill more than a dozen people, if that. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 01:57:39
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quote:
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere is going to need a continuous mass of water to be effective. At most, matching it with control weather will give you a layer of ice on the ground, and maybe temporarily immobilize some folks.
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere freezes water to absolute zero, that's alot more then making people cold, that kills.
quote:
Cloudkill creates a 20x20 cloud. What that's going to do with Control Weather is beyond me. But after a round or two, people are going to be running from it. I'd say you'd be hard pressed to kill 50 people with it, and that's only if they're tightly packed.
First you said i couldn't kill 20 if I was lucky, now it's 50. If they start to run away from the cloud, that's where the control weather comes into play
quote:
Meteor Swarm is the closet you've named to something that could be considered mass destruction, though it again loses its effectiveness if your opponents aren't packed in tight.
And yeah, delayed blast fireballs and lightning bolts could wreak formations -- but neither is going to kill more than a dozen people, if that.
Troops would be in tight formations. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 20 Apr 2010 01:59:59 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 02:37:15
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Err tactics would not be the same, because of magic.
As far as that goes tactics on Earth have changed over the years.
The Greeks and Romans used tight formations, but even they had skirmishers and cavalry just not used much.
Moving on to more modern, Knights lead and fought one to one against Knights and ran over foot troops (It should be noted that foot troops sometimes defeated a knight).
Then came the long bow, then even later the cross bow that made the Knight more likely to loose.
Next came gun powder that changed the mix even more, however the foot troops did tend to be in tighter formations to take a target.
Moving on to the USA civil unrest, indeed formations were used, however canon was placed in front of the troops before battle started (this of course required both armies as a group deciding to face each other) because of their short range.
Then there was trench warfare and some degree of mass assault.
The tactics changed based on what each learned to do to attack and defend from attack.
Now, there are indeed some massed force attacks, however most of the attacks are defined by small groups of people with an over watching drone able to spot opposition small groups.
.......
As magic clearly able to "nuke" a tight party, in general no army would assemble in a tight groups. Even base camps, unless shielded, would not have squads close to each other that two could be taken out or even harmed by a single attack. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 04:01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere freezes water to absolute zero, that's alot more then making people cold, that kills.
That's not even remotely close to what the PHB states. I think you need to go back and read it again. This thing about "absolute zero" just isn't there. And the rest of your thought seems to derive from it.
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"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 04:05:24
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Gotta agree with Cap'n:
quote:
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Freezing sphere creates a frigid globe of cold energy that streaks from your fingertips to the location you select, where it explodes in a 10-foot-radius burst, dealing 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 15d6) to each creature in the area. An elemental (water) creature instead takes 1d8 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 15d8).
If the freezing sphere strikes a body of water or a liquid that is principally water (not including water-based creatures), it freezes the liquid to a depth of 6 inches over an area equal to 100 square feet (a 10-foot square) per caster level (maximum 1,500 square feet). This ice lasts for 1 round per caster level. Creatures that were swimming on the surface of frozen water become trapped in the ice. Attempting to break free is a full-round action. A trapped creature must make a DC 25 Strength check or a DC 25 Escape Artist check to do so.
You can refrain from firing the globe after completing the spell, if you wish. Treat this as a touch spell for which you are holding the charge. You can hold the charge for as long as 1 round per level, at the end of which time the freezing sphere bursts centered on you (and you receive no saving throw to resist its effect). Firing the globe in a later round is a standard action.
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I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 04:05:27
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Level: 6 Schools: Alteration, Evocation
Range: Special Components: V, S, M
Duration: Special Casting Time: 6
Area of Effect: Special Saving Throw: Special
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere is a multipurpose spell of considerable power. If the caster opts, he may create any of the following:
A) Frigid globe. A small globe of matter at absolute zero temperature that spreads upon contact with water, or a liquid that is principally water, freezing it to a depth of 6 inches over an area equal to 100 square feet per level of the spellcaster. This ice lasts for one round per level of the caster.
The material component is a thin sheet of crystal about an inch square.
B) Cold ray. The spell can be used as a thin ray of cold that springs from the caster's hand to a distance of 10 yards per level of the wizard; this ray inflicts 1d4+2 points of damage per level of the caster upon the first creature struck. A saving throw vs. spell is applicable; all damage is negated if it is successful (as the ray is so narrow a save indicates it missed). If the first creature is missed, the path of the ray is plotted to its full distance, and anything else in its path must save (if applicable) or suffer appropriate damage.
The material component is a white sapphire of not less than 1,000 gp value.
C) Globe of cold. This creates a small globe about the size of a sling stone, cool to the touch, but not harmful. This globe can be hurled, either by hand to a distance of 40 yards (considered short range), or as a sling bullet. The globe shatters upon impact, inflicting 6d6 points of cold damage upon all creatures within a 10-foot radius (one-half damage if a saving throw vs. spell is successful). Use the Grenadelike Missile Table in the Dungeon Master Guide to find where misses strike. Note that if the globe is not thrown or slung within one round per level of the spellcaster, it shatters and causes cold damage as stated above. This timed effect can be employed against pursuers, although it can prove hazardous to the spellcaster and his associates as well.
The material component is a 1,000-gp diamond. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 04:13:53
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| It depends on what Edition you are using. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 04:14:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Level: 6 Schools: Alteration, Evocation
Range: Special Components: V, S, M
Duration: Special Casting Time: 6
Area of Effect: Special Saving Throw: Special
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere is a multipurpose spell of considerable power. If the caster opts, he may create any of the following:
A) Frigid globe. A small globe of matter at absolute zero temperature that spreads upon contact with water, or a liquid that is principally water, freezing it to a depth of 6 inches over an area equal to 100 square feet per level of the spellcaster. This ice lasts for one round per level of the caster.
The material component is a thin sheet of crystal about an inch square.
Pardon, me, Kentinal - if we go back to the ole school.
.
The point of the spell is that it creates, temporarily, a small, very small globe of matter at absolute zero. Obviously, upon interaction with the "normal" environment, it creates, "upon contact with water, or a liquid that is principally water..."
Ice.
And, if it's not water? Not a whole lot. The point is that it must be water. Not humid, or less, air. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 04:20:41
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Pardon, me, Kentinal - if we go back to the ole school.
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The point of the spell is that it creates, temporarily, a small, very small globe of matter at absolute zero. Obviously, upon interaction with the "normal" environment, it creates, "upon contact with water, or a liquid that is principally water..."
Ice.
And, if it's not water? Not a whole lot. The point is that it must be water. Not humid, or less, air.
Oh I agree that the spell not all that powerful, just pointing out that the spell did get an "absolute zero" effect. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 04:43:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Oh I agree that the spell not all that powerful, just pointing out that the spell did get an "absolute zero" effect.
Fair enough. Point taken. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 04:54:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Err tactics would not be the same, because of magic.
As far as that goes tactics on Earth have changed over the years.
The Greeks and Romans used tight formations, but even they had skirmishers and cavalry just not used much.
Moving on to more modern, Knights lead and fought one to one against Knights and ran over foot troops (It should be noted that foot troops sometimes defeated a knight).
Then came the long bow, then even later the cross bow that made the Knight more likely to loose.
Next came gun powder that changed the mix even more, however the foot troops did tend to be in tighter formations to take a target.
Moving on to the USA civil unrest, indeed formations were used, however canon was placed in front of the troops before battle started (this of course required both armies as a group deciding to face each other) because of their short range.
Then there was trench warfare and some degree of mass assault.
The tactics changed based on what each learned to do to attack and defend from attack.
Now, there are indeed some massed force attacks, however most of the attacks are defined by small groups of people with an over watching drone able to spot opposition small groups.
.......
As magic clearly able to "nuke" a tight party, in general no army would assemble in a tight groups. Even base camps, unless shielded, would not have squads close to each other that two could be taken out or even harmed by a single attack.
You bring up an interesting point. With magic, what would the tactics of "regular" units be? It's been a long time since I read Crusade, but that would give us a good idea of the tactics of the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36894 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 04:54:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Cloudkill creates a 20x20 cloud. What that's going to do with Control Weather is beyond me. But after a round or two, people are going to be running from it. I'd say you'd be hard pressed to kill 50 people with it, and that's only if they're tightly packed.
First you said i couldn't kill 20 if I was lucky, now it's 50. If they start to run away from the cloud, that's where the control weather comes into play
Great, you named five spells, and only one of them could definitely do it. A second could do it if conditions were ideal... which they won't be, in battle.
And I'm still failing to see what control weather is supposed to do in this situation. Heavy rains, perhaps, to keep people from getting away quickly? Strong winds, maybe? Congratulations, you've just diluted or negated the spell you're trying to kill those people with.
Even if you killed a hundred people with a single spell, that's still not mass destruction, and you've still not explained how "a couple of spells" can kill "thousands". |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Apr 2010 04:58:08 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 04:57:55
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"Even if you killed a hundred people with a single spell, that's still not mass destruction, and you've still not explained how "a couple of spells" can kill "thousands"."
If an army was on the field with 500 troops (witch seems large for the realms,) killing 100 of them would be a big deal. Would the rest continue the fight? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36894 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 05:00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
"Even if you killed a hundred people with a single spell, that's still not mass destruction, and you've still not explained how "a couple of spells" can kill "thousands"."
If an army was on the field with 500 troops (witch seems large for the realms,) killing 100 of them would be a big deal. Would the rest continue the fight?
Not much of an army, with only five hundred troops. And how have you killed that 100? And even if you did kill the 100, how are you going to keep the others away from you long enough to kill them all?
And 100 dead out of 500 is 20%. That's painful, but it's not a break and run kind of attack -- not for a trained army. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 05:02:27
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"Oh I agree that the spell not all that powerful, just pointing out that the spell did get an "absolute zero" effect."
I guess my point is, with control weather you could make it rain (if conditions were right.) Then the absolute zero thing would be pretty nasty to those wet troops. Maybe I'm overstating the effects, sorry. But again, my point is that spells, or spells in combination can be very nasty. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 05:07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
"Even if you killed a hundred people with a single spell, that's still not mass destruction, and you've still not explained how "a couple of spells" can kill "thousands"."
If an army was on the field with 500 troops (witch seems large for the realms,) killing 100 of them would be a big deal. Would the rest continue the fight?
Not much of an army, with only five hundred troops. And how have you killed that 100? And even if you did kill the 100, how are you going to keep the others away from you long enough to kill them all?
And 100 dead out of 500 is 20%. That's painful, but it's not a break and run kind of attack -- not for a trained army.
What? 20% is a big deal. Units in real life during real nasty combat don't see those type of numbers. The Charge of the Light Brigade, which was considered a high loss rate, was 40%. The fact is, when numbers start getting high, people give up. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 20 Apr 2010 05:09:27 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36894 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 05:08:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
"Oh I agree that the spell not all that powerful, just pointing out that the spell did get an "absolute zero" effect."
I guess my point is, with control weather you could make it rain (if conditions were right.) Then the absolute zero thing would be pretty nasty to those wet troops. Maybe I'm overstating the effects, sorry. But again, my point is that spells, or spells in combination can be very nasty.
Very nasty in combination, yes -- but not as nasty as you're making them out to be. With even the heaviest rain, there is space between raindrops. And the absolute zero thing is not large enough nor long lasting enough to have all that dramatic an impact beyond the spell's area of effect. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 05:10:20
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Hey people. Are you forgetting about the land you use? If you use the tactics of mass destruction you will get the desolate land where nothing will grow for hundreds of years!
Talking about using the spells. The army coming on Waterdeep MUST have wizards or sorcerers. You must avoid clashes of the spells, that is why there is a system of mage duels to prevent appearance of such casualties. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36894 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 05:12:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
"Even if you killed a hundred people with a single spell, that's still not mass destruction, and you've still not explained how "a couple of spells" can kill "thousands"."
If an army was on the field with 500 troops (witch seems large for the realms,) killing 100 of them would be a big deal. Would the rest continue the fight?
Not much of an army, with only five hundred troops. And how have you killed that 100? And even if you did kill the 100, how are you going to keep the others away from you long enough to kill them all?
And 100 dead out of 500 is 20%. That's painful, but it's not a break and run kind of attack -- not for a trained army.
What? 20% is a big deal. Units in real life during real nasty combat don't see those type of numbers. The Charge of the Light Brigade, which was considered a high loss rate, was 40%. The fact is, when numbers sart getting high, people give up.
So, to show me how unrealisticly high 20% is, you quote a real loss of 40%? Color me confused... 
You're still failing to explain how you're causing such losses. You're still failing to explain how you're keeping this mythical mage alive. And lastly, you're positing a force with no spellcasters -- in the Realms, how likely is that going to be? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 05:22:48
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Well I see this topic is still active and growing.
quote:
You bring up an interesting point. With magic, what would the tactics of "regular" units be? It's been a long time since I read Crusade, but that would give us a good idea of the tactics of the Realms.
I have in general devised groups of 8 able of independent command, spaced as needed to achieve objective. Every battle is situational, it depends on what you are fighting. Going against spell slinger the squads would be 25 foot apart. If the opposing magic was less a danger the troops would be closer together of mutual support, if the magic caster was considered very powerful the groups might be larger, but also contain mages that can shield from magical attacks. Any that commands when reaching the battlefield can hope plan will work. The command that survive the battle, knows that no plan works as planned. A long way to say it depends on what changes during a battle.
quote:
Not much of an army, with only five hundred troops. And how have you killed that 100? And even if you did kill the 100, how are you going to keep the others away from you long enough to kill them all?
And 100 dead out of 500 is 20%. That's painful, but it's not a break and run kind of attack -- not for a trained army.
A 20 percent lose indeed was likely to cause a retreat from open field battle. That though depends on the risk reward possibilities. Some of the great battles of the 100 Years War (alright they did not fight every year, every month) did have troops of about 400 to 600 to a side. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Waterdeep's army
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