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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 07:12:36
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In every Waterdeep source book going back to FR1, we are given the information that Waterdeep's Guard has 1,200 members (12,000 in times of war.) This seems very low to me, it's not even enough to man the walls. There's over a million people living in or right around Waterdeep, does anyone have what might be a better number?
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 07:41:35
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| The Waterdeep is the greatest city within Faerun. Their fortifications are one of the strongest. Also, don't forget that they have many wizards, including the great archimage Khelben Arunsun "Blackstaff". There is also a threat of summoning the wrath of the crazy master of Undermountain, ancient archimage Halaster Blackcloak, who is older than Elminster himself. Now tell me, why in Nine hells they would need to uselessly spend their money on the army under such circumstances? The main reason of settling the Waterdeep near the Undermountain was to gain the safety near the mad mage's stronghold, knowing that he didn't mind their company in his reach. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 07:54:50
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| Well, there's 140 towers (give or take) along the city walls, and 12 forts (including the castle and palace.) So that would be 8 troops in each structure. So say there's 2 shifts per day, that's 4 troops on duty. So how do they patrol the roads outside the city, there's not even enough to take care of the wall. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 18 Apr 2010 07:57:15 |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 08:07:04
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| I believe that is enough to sound alarm or watch perimeter around the city. As for the roads, not considering the oficial guard there are always enough adventurers or mercenaries to hire for such activities. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 08:15:41
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The population of the City of Waterdeep is actually not one million, it is more like one hundred thousand and twenty. Waterdeep may exercise some control over outlying villages, but the population under its overall control normally probably does not exceed one hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand.
As a ratio of armed forces to population, Waterdeep is probably at or around the average for most polities of its size in the Realms. There are political and logistical reasons.
Politics first: Waterdeep does not pursue geographical or military expansion. Its armed forces play a police of defensive role, and therefore in peace time 1200 (which is around 1% of the population) is sufficient to keep the peace. More expansionist entities (like, say, Thay, Zhentil Keep, and Cormyr) are likely to have a larger standing army. Furthermore, Waterdeep is surrounded by more-or-less friendly neighbours. The major military threat (an orc horde sweeping down from the Spine of the World) has a lot of distance to cover and a lot of other cities/villages to confront before it gets to Waterdeep. Through the Lords' Alliance (or plain common sense), the cities of the north would probably join their forces. You are probably right - 1,200 is probably not enough to man the walls, but in peacetime, there is no need to fully man the walls.
Economics second: maintaining a big standing army costs HUGE amounts of resources - money, equipment, food, and so on. In order to maintain a standing army, Waterdeep would probably have to impose a higher level of taxation than it currently does, which would put it at a commercial disadvantage.
Plus, as Sill Alias already indicated, there are other means of defense. Magic can be a considerable force multiplier. Aside from the archmages, one should not forget the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors. The Order is probably not as militant as the War Wizards of Cormyr, but it might still wield some considerable collective might. Add the temples to that mix, and Waterdeep has a great number of spell casters at its disposal.
Setting aside the issue of magic, however, there are more armed forces in Waterdeep than the Guard and the Watch. Most noble houses have armed guards, every caravan master has armed guards, and (as we all should know  ) the streets are teeming with adventurers, all of which would probably be pressed into service (if they do not simply join up voluntarily) to defend the city in case of attack. When engaged in expeditionary fighting (a rare occurence, because, as I said earlier, Waterdeep does not pursue geographical or political expansion), Waterdeep will do what most other cities will do - hire mercenaries to boost the numbers. Very expendable, very disposable, very convenient.
In general, however, huge armies are a rarity within the Realms. Ten thousand is already a huge army; in fact, the biggest numbers I heard of were the Tuigan Horde (three hundred thousand at full strength), Thay (several hundreds of thousands), and orc hordes (tens of thousands, and occasionally hundreds of thousands). The Tuigan Horde's size is the result of the Tuigan being a very war-like society, and Yamun Khahan preparing a war of conquest for decades. Thay's several hundred thousands are the result of an expansionist policy (the numbers are based on the numbers they were able to field against the Tuigan). Thay's logistics are influenced by the fact that their fields yield bigger crops than they should due to the Red Wizards' manipulations of local weather and soil, otherwise the place could not support such numbers. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 09:58:02
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Thanks for the quick replies, although I'm a little shocked that you guys think that 1,200 is enough. It does say in FR1 that Castle Waterdeep has a garrison of 1,400, so maybe that's in addition to the Guard amount of 1,200.
Also, Waterdeep relying on mercenaries seems a little crazy. Who knows where their loyalty sits? (I guess you could find out through spells.)
One more thing, the 75 noble families are allowed 70 guards in Waterdeep (who knows how that is checked,) but that would mean the nobles have a force of 5250 troops in Waterdeep. (5 times the Lords force.) That seems pretty trusting of the Lords, or stupid, to allow their nobles a larger force than they have right in their front yard. Now I know someone will say that the Lords of Waterdeep have nothing to fear from their nobles, but that is first way to get overthrown, being too trusting. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 18 Apr 2010 09:59:08 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 10:26:20
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Oh, one more thing about the use of magic in large scale warfare in the Realms. I remember, I think in the novel Crusade, the War Wizards of Cormyr did a number on the Tuigan Horde. But wouldn't there be moral implications of such an action? It be like using nuclear weapons today.
I could understand if the enemy blew away a huge part of your force with some meteor showers, sure you would respond. But to take that action first??? |
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dragonfriend
Seeker
Italy
65 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 11:07:50
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The forces of noble houses: don't think they can go against the Lords, noble houses hardly can stand togheter. Second, even the large temples have armed forces. There are also some giant animated statues in Waterdeep.
And i think that a rich city as Waterdeep can pay mercenary troops without worry about loyalty. |
Edited by - dragonfriend on 18 Apr 2010 11:14:39 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 11:33:58
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This is from FR1:
"...the true size and names of the Guard and the Watch, and these figures may only be two-thirds or even less of the true totals."
So it seems like Mr.Greenwood was leaving the size of the Guard up to the DM, but later tombs on Waterdeep seem to take the 1,200 number as fact.
The other worry I would have with mercenaries, besides their loyalty, would be their conduct. Imagine Waterdeep sends a mercenary force down to protect Daggerford and next thing you know they're stealing horses and making off with the women. I mean, that can't be good for your foreign relations... |
Edited by - Riverwind on 18 Apr 2010 11:45:08 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 11:54:54
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quote:
Originally posted by dragonfriend
The forces of noble houses: don't think they can go against the Lords, noble houses hardly can stand togheter.
But never say never. Maybe they're sick of paying taxes, or maybe they're mad because they don't have a seat as one of the Masked Lords. I'm not saying they're evil, but maybe they feel cheated, and they're not going to take it anymore.
Or how about the normal folk in Waterdeep, maybe they're pissed because Mirt and Durnan live forever thanks to magic, while they die at 30 thanks to fever. So they riot, and the 1,200 Guard and 1,600 Watch can't handle the situation... |
Edited by - Riverwind on 18 Apr 2010 12:05:11 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 11:55:26
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quote:
Originally posted by dragonfriend
The forces of noble houses: don't think they can go against the Lords, noble houses hardly can stand togheter.
But never say never. Maybe they're sick of paying taxes, or maybe they're mad because they don't have a seat as one of the Masked Lords. I'm not saying they're evil, but maybe they feel cheated, and they're not going to take it anymore.
Or how about the normal folk in Waterdeep, maybe they're pissed because Mirt and Durnan live forever thanks to magic, while they die at 30 thanks to fever. So they riot, and the 1,200 Guard and 1,600 Watch can't handle the situation... |
Edited by - Riverwind on 18 Apr 2010 11:56:03 |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 11:57:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
This is from FR1:
"...the true size and names of the Guard and the Watch, and these figures may only be two-thirds or even less of the true totals."
So it seems like Mr.Greenwood was leaving the size of the Guard up to the DM, but later tombs on Waterdeep seem to take the 1,200 number as fact.
The other worry I would have with mercenaries, besides their loyalty, would be their conduct. Imagine Waterdeep sends a mercenary force down to protect the Daggerford and next thing you know their stealing horses and making off with the women. I mean, that can't be good for your forirgn relations...
You're absolutely right about the foreign relations, but the best way to avoid that is to avoid having to hire mercenaries in the first place, and the best way to avoid that is to avoid war. Waterdeep is not likely to retain mercenaries in peacetime - it's expensive and, as Riverwind correctly pointed out, it's bad for foreign relations.
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Thanks for the quick replies, although I'm a little shocked that you guys think that 1,200 is enough. It does say in FR1 that Castle Waterdeep has a garrison of 1,400, so maybe that's in addition to the Guard amount of 1,200.
Also, Waterdeep relying on mercenaries seems a little crazy. Who knows where their loyalty sits? (I guess you could find out through spells.)
One more thing, the 75 noble families are allowed 70 guards in Waterdeep (who knows how that is checked,) but that would mean the nobles have a force of 5250 troops in Waterdeep. (5 times the Lords force.) That seems pretty trusting of the Lords, or stupid, to allow their nobles a larger force than they have right in their front yard. Now I know someone will say that the Lords of Waterdeep have nothing to fear from their nobles, but that is first way to get overthrown, being too trusting.
Don't forget that you also need to take into account the Watch (that's around 1,600 more). As for size, City of Splendors (the 2E boxed Sets) still list 1,200 Guards and 1,600 Watch as the number the strength is "thought to be".
As Dragonfried already mentioned - first of all, the nobles would all have to join together (who would be in charge)? And more importantly, they are all scared to death of the Powers Behind the Throne, the Blackstaff, in particular. For a good example of the nobles' emotional response (fear is also an emotion), check out the early chapters of "Elfshadow". Plus, there are numerous noble houses who support the Lords' rule, because it's good for them (for their business, anyway).
As for mercenaries' loyalty - mercenaries are loyal to themselves first, but as every mercenary knows, if you betray an employer, you have to to get it right the first time around and make sure that your employer or his friends will not be around to come around and ask for a refund (or, more likely, exact vengeance). And in the case of Waterdeep, that's not likely to be a realistic prospect (Khelben, Force Grey, the Harpers, etc.). |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 12:08:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by dragonfriend
The forces of noble houses: don't think they can go against the Lords, noble houses hardly can stand togheter.
But never say never. Maybe they're sick of paying taxes, or maybe they're mad because they don't have a seat as one of the Masked Lords. I'm not saying they're evil, but maybe they feel cheated, and they're not going to take it anymore.
Or how about the normal folk in Waterdeep, maybe they're pissed because Mirt and Durnan live forever thanks to magic, while they die at 30 thanks to fever. So they riot, and the 1,200 Guard and 1,600 Watch can't handle the situation...
Again, this requires a perfect storm. I am not saying that it cannot happen; it's unlikely - the Powers Behind the Throne have feelers out everywhere, and would likely become aware of the risk of serious unrest, and if it does, then yes, the city and its government might go up in flames. But ultimately, it's a risk management issue. Of course, the City could set up an army big enough to take on anything that might occur. But that leads to two big problems: first of all, they would have to tax the population to pay for that army, and they would have to pay for it very well, because maybe, just maybe, the army will think it can run things better than the Lords, and this has happened in the past in Waterdeep - Raurlor comes to mind... And he did not last long.
The way Waterdeep has always been described, it's a hotbed that the Lords manage to keep under control by carefully keeping the balance between all interest groups: the nobles, the temples, the powerful individuals, foreign power groups, and the mob. It's a very difficult exercise, and occasionally, it goes wrong, as it has in the past.
So, yes, there are circumstances under which the 1,200 plus 1,600 will be insufficient, but then again, it is impossible to have perfect solutions for every situation. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 15:16:47
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Hmm, 140 towers and 12 forts, do not need that many troops in time of peace.
I could place 4 troops in each tower and an average of 20 troops in each fort for a total of 800 troops.
Towers in time of peace are only a watching tower to see if a problem is coming, one troop can do that. The forts during time of peace only hold supplies and and just need to be guarded and kept in good repair.
This provides guards that can patrol outside the walls, guards walking the walls, guard the entrances (though that duty might be the Watch's assignment) and do ongoing training.
If you believe 800 are two many, in time of peace half, perhaps more, might not need to be manned at all. The views from the towers overlap so you do not need a watcher in every tower. Some of the Forts likely would be locked and requiring only about 8 to 12 troops to keep secured.
Also patrolling outside the walls, there are the Griffin riders that I believe are not directly counted as guards.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 18:46:03
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Riverwind, I've been reading these posts with interest. Some things to add here: you are correct in thinking Castle Waterdeep's garrison strength is IN ADDITION to the Guard strength (though about a third of the garrison at any one time are trainees), and that the stated 1,200 is a low figure; it doesn't include the around twice as many who are on "Skullport patrol" and "outlander mission" and naval duty, at any specific time.
More importantly, you've not mentioned the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors (aka "the Wizards' Guild"). They support Piergeiron, and are charged to keep order and peace in the city - - which means patrolling the streets with the Watch, backing up the Guard whenever necessary, and (just by existing, and being on the scene as an actively vigilant presence) acting as a POWERFUL DETERRENT to any noble (or anyone else) thinking of using armed forces to defy, overthrow, harry, or terrorize the citizens, Lords, or lawkeepers. Remember, these folks have kept a Thieves' Guild "on the run" for decades; they are NOT idle spell-studiers.
It is wrong to think of the Guard as needing to occupy most of the wall towers at all; they tend to be concentrated at city gates, at the docks, and atop Mount Waterdeep on lookout duty, plus meeting in the Palace with courtiers, guildmasters, nobles, and others constantly to assess and re-assess security threats to the city.
All of this comes from some thirty years of playing in the Realms with Ed Greenwood as my Dungeon Master - - play that has included scores of visits to Waterdeep, both fleeting and lengthy. I'd suggest querying Ed in his Chamber of Sages thread for more on this, if you're interested; he's always "on duty" for scribes desiring more details of Realmslore.
love,
THO |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 05:29:08
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I want to thank everyone for the great replies.
So it seems most people here think the walls of the city could be manned with a pretty small force. But even in peacetime, if you did 12 hour shifts, 50% of that force would be off duty. Also, a certain level of the force will always be out, due to sickness, leave, training, AWOL, etc.
So whatever force is needed for the general protection of the city, you'll still need road patrols and a certain force at Zunebridge.
So let's say 50% of the Guard is needed for the City, that only leaves around 600 troops for an expeditionary force. I would think Waterdeep would have a few hundred heavy cavalry, and a few hundred expert long bowmen in addition to at least a few hundred infantry. Also you would need a supply train, blacksmiths, armorers, ranches (to handle the cattle for the army,) and some type of force to protect the supply train. You would also need pathfinders (scouts, light cavalry,) engineers, (ax men to clear forest, experts to bridge rivers,) and units specialized in siege warfare (miners, and seige weapon specialist.) So you could see you quickly start to run up the level of troops, not to mention keeping some force in reserve.
It seems that alot of you guys have Waterdeep depending on other organizations for the city's protection (ie, her nobles, mercenaries, knightly orders, or the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors.) The problem, as I see it, is that most people don't do things for free. Take the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, they're going to want something in return for the service, if they're willing to do so at all. Unfortunetly, not everyone believes in the common good. Their attitude could be, "what do we care if the Way Inn is under attack, what does that have to do with us?" Also (see my other post,) I think there might be ethical problems in using WMD (weapons of mass destruction) type spells in combat in the realms. Would everyone in Waterdeep be comfortable if a mage in the service of the city killed a few thousand orcs with a couple of spells? I'm not sure, every society is going to some type of peace movement. Also, do other nations and city states just allow another nation to use spells in such a manner? Think in our world how some countries react to the United States (I don't want to get into a real world cat fight.)
The Hooded One, thank you for your reply. I love Ed's stuff, and I'm going to try to ask him some questions, thanks. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 19 Apr 2010 05:46:35 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 06:06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I want to thank everyone for the great replies.
So it seems most people here think the walls of the city could be manned with a pretty small force. But even in peacetime, if you did 12 hour shifts, 50% of that force would be off duty. Also, a certain level of the force will always be out, due to sickeness, leave, training, AWOL, etc.
I got it down to 800 or less active, THO appears to confirm the number could be lower. Troops are never off duty, though they can sleep with weapon near hand. A troop requires 8 hours sleep so can be on duty 16 hours as far as that goes. Sickness is often cured quickly by visit to Cleric of your choice or retained by Waterdeep.quote:
So whatever force is needed for the general protection of the city, you'll still need road patrols and a certain force at Zunebridge.
So let's say 50% of the Guard is needed for the City, that only leaves around 600 troops for an expeditionary force. I would think Waterdeep would have a few hundred heavy cavalry, and a few hundred expert long bowmen in addition to at least a few hundred infantry. Also you would need a supply train, blacksmiths, armorers, ranches (to handle the cattle for the army,) and some type of force to protect the supply train. You would also need pathfinders (scouts, light cavalry,) engineers, (ax men to clear forest, experts to bridge rivers,) and units specialized in siege warfare (miners, and seige weapon specialist.) So you could see you quickly start to run up the level of troops, not to mention keeping some force in reserve.
THO indicated the outer settlements have their own Guard. Most of the rest you are talking about is an army at war, that number is 12,000 for the city. You do not need a supply train if you are not attacking anyone - supply train is needed during a state of war. The Smiths, animal handles and other support during a time of peace can be provided by civilians, in fact even during times of war some of them would become "camp followers" for pay for their skills.
quote:
It seems that alot of you guys have Waterdeep depending on other organizations for the city's protection (ie, her nobles, mercenaries, knightly orders, or the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors.) The problem, as I see it, is that most people don't do things for free. Take the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, they're going to want something in return for the service, if they're willing to do so at all. Unfortunetly, not everyone believes in the common good. Their attitude could be, "what do we care if the Way Inn is under attack, what does that have to do with us?" Also (see my other post,) I think there might be ethical problems in using WMD (weapons of mass destruction) type spells in combat in the realms. Would everyone in Waterdeep be comfortable if a mage in the service of the city killed a few thousand orcs with a couple of spells? I'm not sure, every society is going to some type of peace movement. Also, do other nations and city states just allow another nation to use spells in such a manner? Think in our world how some countries react to the United States (I don't want to get into a real world cat fight.)
Waterdeep is not on Earth, the Masked Lords of Waterdeep almost certainly would use their troops to protect Waterdeep. There are other organizations including trade guilds that would be there in need, Waterdeep is a trading port. As for weapons of mass destruction, I can not recall any player of an arcane character not quickly taking Fireball as soon as possible. While there might be a few in Waterdeep that would not approve of use of fireball on orcs, I suspect most troops and most females would prefer that - though for different reasons - as apposed to reaching out a hand of friendship to an attacking horde.quote:
The Hooded One, thank you for your reply. I love Ed's stuff, and I'm going to try to ask him some questions, thanks.
You should remember, THO has lived in Ed's game world a long time. Sometimes her answers are as good as Ed;s are. I clearly missed the outer community guard, I was however, it appears, correct that not all towers are manned during time of peace. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 06:44:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Don't forget the Walking Statues of Waterdeep!
Gee I did forget to mention them, part of the magical defense 3.5 or sooner.
Riverwind, I built a Kentinal Realm with a population of about 80,000. It has existed for perhaps 10 years. This city state has a very strong Guard/Army about 10,000 in number. However the Realm was designed to be always at a state of war. In part because the character Duke had upset *Grin* some powerful people and in part the character seeks any Lawful reason to extend holdings. Of those troops 75 percent of them have spent time in base camps or defending the wars. The tax structure to pay for this is a bit harsh, though I tried to balance it with legalized prostitution, along with fees for begging and for committing crimes community service (Commit the right/wrong crime the person might be working in a House of Joy).
I will repeat in times of Peace you do not need many troops, in fact the only reason you need troops at all would be having a chain of command and the ability to train for a time of war. That it appears Waterdeep can go from 1,200 in peace to 12,000 in war clearly indicates the Resident population is war ready. Very few nations can have 10 percent of their population quickly into the Army/Guard.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 06:51:34
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Kentinal,
"I can not recall any player of an arcane character not quickly taking Fireball as soon as possible. While there might be a few in Waterdeep that would not approve of use of fireball on orcs, I suspect most troops and most females would prefer that - though for different reasons - as apposed to reaching out a hand of friendship to an attacking horde."
You're right, maybe most people wouldn't mind using a fireball on orcs, but would this be racist? Also, what if it wasn't orcs? How about if Waterdeep was at war with Luskan? Would people approve of mages doing that to other humans? Hey, what's up the female comment
Ashe,
You're right about the Walking Satues, while they would be great for the defence of the city, I'm not sure you would want to take them out on the offense, unless you want to scare the crap out of the locals and destroy their roads...
Another thing (I love re-reading FR1.) It says that the Castle has 70 horses, the palace stables has 726 horses, and the paddocks has 1700 horses. That seems to suggest a much larger force. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 07:19:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Kentinal,
"I can not recall any player of an arcane character not quickly taking Fireball as soon as possible. While there might be a few in Waterdeep that would not approve of use of fireball on orcs, I suspect most troops and most females would prefer that - though for different reasons - as apposed to reaching out a hand of friendship to an attacking horde."
You're right, maybe most people wouldn't mind using a fireball on orcs, but would this be racist? Also, what if it wasn't orcs? How about if Waterdeep was at war with Luskan? Would people approve of mages doing that to other humans? Hey, what's up the female comment
Only that I heard that most half-orcs are the result of unwanted orcs male advances on unwilling female humans.
As for Luskan mounting an attack, I suspect there might be a little more resistance to the idea, however odds are on that almost all that would not want orcs to win (troops and females) would not want invading humans to win either. The same outcome is likely - troops killed females enjoyed by the victors.
quote:
Ashe,
You're right about the Walking Satues, while they would be great for the defence of the city, I'm not sure you would want to take them out on the offense, unless you want to scare the crap out of the locals and destroy their roads...
Another thing (I love re-reading FR1.) It says that the Castle has 70 horses, the palace stables has 726 horses, and the paddocks has 1700 horses. That seems to suggest a much larger force.
Some horses are for carriages or wagons, some just for riding, The Guard and Watch might well be rider trained. Some might even be quartered for Nobles. If you had mounts for every Guard and every Watch the list does not add up to enough horses. Of course not all need a mount. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 07:25:18
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Dont forget Force Grey, or the Grey Hands.
I like Force Grey as a name so much better... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 07:28:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Also, Waterdeep relying on mercenaries seems a little crazy. Who knows where their loyalty sits? (I guess you could find out through spells.)
Dear Riverwind, do not underestimate the prowess of mercenaries. About their loyalty, there are many mercenary guilds with great loyalty to the client (Red Ravens?). Some of them are the main asset in keeping the order in the cities, like Flaming Fist in Baldur's Gate. They were even more reliable than corrupted guards of Amn. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 07:46:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I want to thank everyone for the great replies.
So it seems most people here think the walls of the city could be manned with a pretty small force. But even in peacetime, if you did 12 hour shifts, 50% of that force would be off duty. Also, a certain level of the force will always be out, due to sickness, leave, training, AWOL, etc.
So whatever force is needed for the general protection of the city, you'll still need road patrols and a certain force at Zunebridge.
So let's say 50% of the Guard is needed for the City, that only leaves around 600 troops for an expeditionary force. I would think Waterdeep would have a few hundred heavy cavalry, and a few hundred expert long bowmen in addition to at least a few hundred infantry. Also you would need a supply train, blacksmiths, armorers, ranches (to handle the cattle for the army,) and some type of force to protect the supply train. You would also need pathfinders (scouts, light cavalry,) engineers, (ax men to clear forest, experts to bridge rivers,) and units specialized in siege warfare (miners, and seige weapon specialist.) So you could see you quickly start to run up the level of troops, not to mention keeping some force in reserve.
This tool might help you in finding some of the answers you'd like:
http://www.rpglibrary.org/utils/meddemog/
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
It seems that alot of you guys have Waterdeep depending on other organizations for the city's protection (ie, her nobles, mercenaries, knightly orders, or the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors.) The problem, as I see it, is that most people don't do things for free. Take the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, they're going to want something in return for the service, if they're willing to do so at all. Unfortunetly, not everyone believes in the common good. Their attitude could be, "what do we care if the Way Inn is under attack, what does that have to do with us?" Also (see my other post,) I think there might be ethical problems in using WMD (weapons of mass destruction) type spells in combat in the realms. Would everyone in Waterdeep be comfortable if a mage in the service of the city killed a few thousand orcs with a couple of spells? I'm not sure, every society is going to some type of peace movement. Also, do other nations and city states just allow another nation to use spells in such a manner? Think in our world how some countries react to the United States (I don't want to get into a real world cat fight.)
The Hooded One, thank you for your reply. I love Ed's stuff, and I'm going to try to ask him some questions, thanks.
Re: "The problem, as I see it, is that most people don't do things for free."
The Cowled Wizards have given similar services to Athkatla as the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors gives to Waterdeep; if the latter is anything like the prior, they'd use their service provided as a means to manipulate---subtlety and not so subtlety---the various levels of politics and economy of the city.
And if the Watchful Order are good or neutrally-aligned in your Realms, then they'd understand that they're worthy of coin enough to make a quality living for the services provided to the city (being good not only to others, but also being fair to themselves), and given that Lord Piergeiron is good-aligned and the city is extremely prosperous, they'd get their coin, so their services they provide wouldn't be rendered free. What's more, it may have been someone like Khelben Arunson influenced them to provide the city w/the services, in exchange for not only for coin enough to make a prosperous living, but also enhanced magical studying under him and some of his very intelligent friends.
Re: "I think there might be ethical problems in using WMD (weapons of mass destruction) type spells in combat in the realms. Would everyone in Waterdeep be comfortable if a mage in the service of the city killed a few thousand orcs with a couple of spells?"
It depends. If the orcs aren't initiating the battle, then yes, I'm sure the Waterdavian citizens would object of the WMD, perhaps even unto revolt. And supposing that is the scenario that occurs, then it means that the Lords of Waterdeep are on an expeditionary quest for territorial expansion, and as Thauramarth said, that's not how Waterdeep goes about thier business.
This I'm addressing here might juss be a point of semantics, but I think its noteworthy; A (2e) 10th level wizard's fireball (as per the 2e 3rd-level spell) would do a max of 10d6 damage, which would be likely enough to kill or severely burn/injure civilians, but would be hardpressed of itself to wipe out battle-hardened marauding orcs from the Sword Mts. I don't think a 2e 3rd-lvl fireball does the kind of damage that WMD's from Earth do. To me, it actually seems easier to kill people on present day Earth than it does in Toril. At least you have to be skilled w/weaponry and/or magicks in Toril! Ha!
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Edited by - bladeinAmn on 19 Apr 2010 07:53:46 |
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dragonfriend
Seeker
Italy
65 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 07:50:38
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| As previously said, I think mercenaries are an important force. After all they are so numerous in the western hearthlands that a city like waterdeep is in contact with many of them. Some noble houses, if I'm not wrong, have business in mercenary too. Only a mad or an evil one have no interest in keeping Waterdeep as a strong trading centre. Remember thant the city is one of the most rich in the whole west. I think only Calimport and Athkatla are equal. (even Huzuz, but it is in far distant Zhakhara). |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 08:01:03
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quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
This I'm addressing here might juss be a point of semantics, but I think its noteworthy; A (2e) 10th level wizard's fireball (as per the 2e 3rd-level spell) would do a max of 10d6 damage, which would be likely enough to kill or severely burn/injure civilians, but would be hardpressed of itself to wipe out battle-hardened marauding orcs from the Sword Mts. I don't think a 2e 3rd-lvl fireball does the kind of damage that WMD's from Earth do. To me, it actually seems easier to kill people on present day Earth than it does in Toril. At least you have to be skilled w/weaponry and/or magicks in Toril! Ha!
My fault for bringing up Fireball as a WMD, there are other spells more powerful as one levels up. Only other point though is odds are on an attack on Waterdeep would involve many fireballs cast toward the invaders. One might not kill, five or ten certainly be different *Grin* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 08:34:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Dont forget Force Grey, or the Grey Hands.
I like Force Grey as a name so much better...
I'm 100% with you on that one. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 08:45:49
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bladeinAmn,
Thnaks for the link, I'm going to check it out.
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 08:51:04
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quote:
Dear Riverwind, do not underestimate the prowess of mercenaries. About their loyalty, there are many mercenary guilds with great loyalty to the client (Red Ravens?). Some of them are the main asset in keeping the order in the cities, like Flaming Fist in Baldur's Gate. They were even more reliable than corrupted guards of Amn.
I think mercs have loyalty to money and to who might be winning the war. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36896 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 11:25:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Would everyone in Waterdeep be comfortable if a mage in the service of the city killed a few thousand orcs with a couple of spells?
Outside of Bigby's Crushing Tactical Nuke, what spells do you know of that can kill -- in a single casting -- more than 20 people or so? |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 13:31:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Dear Riverwind, do not underestimate the prowess of mercenaries. About their loyalty, there are many mercenary guilds with great loyalty to the client (Red Ravens?). Some of them are the main asset in keeping the order in the cities, like Flaming Fist in Baldur's Gate. They were even more reliable than corrupted guards of Amn.
I think mercs have loyalty to money and to who might be winning the war.
Not everyone, my friend, not everyone.  |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Waterdeep's army
Topic Locked
