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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 01:43:49
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Thinking about this today, I found myself intrigued with the idea that Lathander might have started to metamorphose into Amaunator earlier than we had thought. In the same manner that economists can't tell when a recession has ended until many quarters after it actually ends, I wonder if Lathander's transformation might have occurred before the Spell Plague, before Mystra's death.
The "Risen Sun Heresy" and the "Three-Faced Sun Heresy" were established in Power of Faerūn p.47. There were adherents of Lathander who believed that Lathander already had become Amaunator or that his transformation was imminent. What if, say, the events surrounding the re-founding of Myth Drannor and Cormanthor marked Lathander's ascendancy into the Day portfolio. I know that the Grand History of Faerūn indicates "Lathander" was still extant in Year of Blue Fire (1385 DR) but what if he was only "Lathander" in name only, or word just had not gotten out yet about his change? Heck, he might not have had to even change anything yet, maybe it was his porfolio that transformed, he suddenly woke up one morning with the Day portfolio instead of the Dawn portfolio and then the portfolio effected a change upon him over the next few decades.
Anyway, entertaining the notion that Lathander acquired the Day portfolio sometime around the Year of Risen Elfkin, that would have cleared the way for the Dusk portfolio to come back. Now if Cyric got a hold of the Crown of Horns, or somehow coaxed the Dusk portfolio to inhere in him (he is the Dark Sun, after all, a monicker uniquely suited to a god of Dusk) then that might go a long way towards explaining how he was able to kill Mystra. Perhaps the Dusk portfolio helped him to secretly engineer the death of many gods, including the War of Gold and Gloom, Helm, Mystra, Tyr, etc. The Spell Plague seems very Dusky to me.
Alternatively, we don't have to assume that Cyric actually fully acquired the Dusk portfolio, but maybe the Dusk portfolio was locked in the Crown of Horns, and mere possession of the artifact would allow Cyric to access the Dusk portfolio, if only on a temporary basis.
Not sure if this reflects any of what actually happened, but it seems plausible to me--and it's certainly a fun scenario to think about.  |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 02:38:51
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| if Cyric acquired the crown of horns, he'd have to contend with Dark Lord Myrkul."Lord Myrkul would put cyric in the crown and take over his body. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 04:40:49
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| Who knows! That might be what happened! Although, given Cyric's ego, in a battle of wills, I'd think he'd have a little edge. But a fun twist nonetheless! |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 04:56:35
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| Cyric had a wisdom of 20 did he not? what was Myrkuls? |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 07:25:05
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| Faiths & Pantheons actually gives Cyric's wisdom as 24, it doesn't list Myrkul's. However, Faith's & Avatars give Myrkul's avatar a wisdom of 23. However, that resource states also that Cyric's avatar has wis 16. So it's hard to tell who is wiser. Perhaps Myrkul, being no longer a god, has a wisdom penalty. Perhaps Cyric has "wised-up" during the period between publication of the two sources. Perhaps Cyric, currently a god, gets divinity bonuses to wisdom rolls and saves. I would still give Cyric the advantage. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 15:04:35
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Considering that Cyric is a deity and that he used to hold Myrkul's portfolios, I think that he'd notice Myrkul's presence in the Crown of Horns immediately -- before even thinking of putting it on.
Sure, Myrkul can hide from mortals, but it's hard for anything short of a deity to hide from a deity. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 15:15:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Considering that Cyric is a deity and that he used to hold Myrkul's portfolios, I think that he'd notice Myrkul's presence in the Crown of Horns immediately -- before even thinking of putting it on.
Sure, Myrkul can hide from mortals, but it's hard for anything short of a deity to hide from a deity.
I don't think Myrkul would make it easy, though. After all, the old Lord of the Dead would've had a lot of experience hiding while inside the Crown of Horns. Not that he would've met with much success, but I believe Myrkul probably would've made some attempt to hide his status from Ao for a time. And if he can bluff the Overgod for a short while, bluffing a regular deity shouldn't be too difficult. And even with Myrkul no longer having divine status, I'm sure he'd remember a few "tricks of the trade" in terms how deities *see* and *look* for things. He could probably use that knowledge to his advantage. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 17:28:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Considering that Cyric is a deity and that he used to hold Myrkul's portfolios, I think that he'd notice Myrkul's presence in the Crown of Horns immediately -- before even thinking of putting it on.
Sure, Myrkul can hide from mortals, but it's hard for anything short of a deity to hide from a deity.
I don't think Myrkul would make it easy, though. After all, the old Lord of the Dead would've had a lot of experience hiding while inside the Crown of Horns. Not that he would've met with much success, but I believe Myrkul probably would've made some attempt to hide his status from Ao for a time. And if he can bluff the Overgod for a short while, bluffing a regular deity shouldn't be too difficult. And even with Myrkul no longer having divine status, I'm sure he'd remember a few "tricks of the trade" in terms how deities *see* and *look* for things. He could probably use that knowledge to his advantage.
Myrkul wouldn't need to hide from Ao, though -- Myrkul is no longer a deity, so Ao wouldn't care about him.
And I simply don't think a non-deity is going to have enough power to conceal himself in the presence of a deity -- especially a deity of deception and illusion. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Apr 2010 17:29:44 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 17:38:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Considering that Cyric is a deity and that he used to hold Myrkul's portfolios, I think that he'd notice Myrkul's presence in the Crown of Horns immediately -- before even thinking of putting it on.
Sure, Myrkul can hide from mortals, but it's hard for anything short of a deity to hide from a deity.
I don't think Myrkul would make it easy, though. After all, the old Lord of the Dead would've had a lot of experience hiding while inside the Crown of Horns. Not that he would've met with much success, but I believe Myrkul probably would've made some attempt to hide his status from Ao for a time. And if he can bluff the Overgod for a short while, bluffing a regular deity shouldn't be too difficult. And even with Myrkul no longer having divine status, I'm sure he'd remember a few "tricks of the trade" in terms how deities *see* and *look* for things. He could probably use that knowledge to his advantage.
Myrkul wouldn't need to hide from Ao, though -- Myrkul is no longer a deity, so Ao wouldn't care about him.
Oh, I don't think he'd care. But, at the same time, I doubt Ao's the kind of Overgod to simply ignore such a situation forever. He should well remember what his inattentiveness brought him the last time he ignored divine developments on Toril. And while Myrkul doesn't really need to worry about hiding from Ao now, we all know and appreciate what Ed's said in the past about dead gods never truly being considered "dead." There's always the possibility that Myrkul could once again attain deityhood.
quote:
And I simply don't think a non-deity is going to have enough power to conceal himself in the presence of a deity -- especially a deity of deception and illusion.
I'm not saying that Myrkul would succeed. Just that he's enough deity-experience to give Cyric a difficult time trying to "find" him. At least for a while. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 18:28:36
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Anything Myrkul does is not a divine development, though, since he's no longer divine. And we know he's not interested in being a deity any more.
If anything, I think Myrkul would do his best to simply stay away from Cyric. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2010 : 00:54:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Anything Myrkul does is not a divine development, though, since he's no longer divine. And we know he's not interested in being a deity any more.
That is, unless he starts working toward the path of the divine again. And Ed's made it quite clear that that is always a possibility for fallen deities. So, for whatever reason, the divine development will always remain.
quote:
If anything, I think Myrkul would do his best to simply stay away from Cyric.
Aye, which is a part of what I've been saying. Myrkul understand how deities *see* other deities, and he could even use part of that knowledge to keep well out of Cyric's way for a time. But it would amount to very little. Cyric is still a god, after all, and Myrkul only has limited opportunities and "room" to hide in the Crown. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2010 : 05:00:00
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| I was thinking more along the lines of not letting the Crown come into Cyric's possession. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2010 : 05:39:35
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Ah, gotcha.
That'd actually make for quite an intriguing campaign hook... with Myrkul ensuring that the Crown of Horns evades Cyric's possession by "falling" into the hands of individuals that would make claiming it, somewhat difficult for the Prince of Lies.
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2010 : 05:28:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
<chop>
Anyway, entertaining the notion that Lathander acquired the Day portfolio sometime around the Year of Risen Elfkin, that would have cleared the way for the Dusk portfolio to come back. Now if Cyric got a hold of the Crown of Horns, or somehow coaxed the Dusk portfolio to inhere in him (he is the Dark Sun, after all, a monicker uniquely suited to a god of Dusk) then that might go a long way towards explaining how he was able to kill Mystra. Perhaps the Dusk portfolio helped him to secretly engineer the death of many gods, including the War of Gold and Gloom, Helm, Mystra, Tyr, etc. The Spell Plague seems very Dusky to me.
Alternatively, we don't have to assume that Cyric actually fully acquired the Dusk portfolio, but maybe the Dusk portfolio was locked in the Crown of Horns, and mere possession of the artifact would allow Cyric to access the Dusk portfolio, if only on a temporary basis.
Not sure if this reflects any of what actually happened, but it seems plausible to me--and it's certainly a fun scenario to think about.
 Gray, this is very cool stuff... I'll have to take some time to investigate the entire body of lore regarding these three more carefully, but for my Realms and my reimagined Spellplague, I'm looking at having the Spellplague break this cycle wide open, causing all three aspects to coexist, with only their relative power levels changing in cycle (one greater, one lesser, one demi-). That's all I've got right now; it's late where I am, and I work at 6AM. 
Edit: Nice job on the NDA Jergal lore, BTW. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 26 Apr 2010 05:29:23 |
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Amaunator
