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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 18:51:34
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So, I'm an aspiring novelist and I plan to involve Amaunator in my writings, since his return to the Realms has sparked some interest about him. I think I have a good deal of information on him already, mostly from Netheril: Empire of Magic and by extension (sort of), Faiths and Pantheons where it delves into Lathander.
However, is there any other sort of information I should know about him? I have an idea of how I want to bridge the gap of going from Amaunator LN to Lathander NG to Amaunator LG, but I just want to make sure it doesn't mess up any already established information.
Mod Edit: Found this scroll floating in the ether between shelves.
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Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Apr 2010 00:09:10
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 01:00:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The best info on Amaunator is in the 2E book Faiths & Avatars. 
Hmm, I see. Is that book difficult to acquire? Perhaps I might see if one of my friends has it. |
Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 01:39:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
You can try either Ebay or nobleknight.com. Both sites tend to offer used copies at reasonable prices.
I'll check that then, thanks. |
Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 04:36:34
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| The Netheril box set as well has info about him. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 05:35:55
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| Netheril box set? Does that have any sort of books that I could look out for or is it pretty much just a booklet that comes with it? |
Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 07:04:11
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| You mean Netheril: Empire of Magic? Already downloaded that some time ago. :) |
Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 20:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Aye. That's the source Kuje referred to earlier.
Ah, I see.
Well, at least this means that I have some good information on Amaunator already. I'll double glean it a third time to be sure and see what I can come up with. Fortunately, it looks like I won't need to do anything with the actual faith anytime soon, so I can prepare for it.
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Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 15:09:50
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| Don't forget that many "heretics" knew that Amaunator would eventually come back to replace Lathander. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 22:54:16
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Alisttair: No surprise there; all new religions start out as heresies or cults.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 03:36:44
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| My big question regarding the whole "dawn-highsun-dusk" cycle thing is: what happened to the dusk aspect's turn in the cycle this time around? We went from highsun to dawn back to highsun. My theory is: that's what the Dawn Cataclysm is about. The cycle should have gone from highsun to dusk with the fall of Netheril, but Lathander somehow engineered his return to preeminence early. If anyone else has any other ideas regarding my theory or an alternate possibility, I'm interested. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 14 Apr 2010 03:39:04 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 04:56:43
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The Dusk portfolio was Myrkul's, yes, but the timeline doesn't add up.
Fall of Netheril (Year of Sundered Webs, -339 DR): Amaunator begins to fade; Lathander apparently rises to pre-eminence in his place.
ToT (Year of Shadows, 1358 DR): Myrkul dies, having apparently never held equivalent status to Amaunator or Lathander... although the year name is appropriate in that sense.
After the fall of Netheril, we have dawn succeeding highsun. That doesn't happen unless the natural order has been mucked around with. Amaunator succeeding Lathander is a naturally expected succession based on how the world (regardless of which one) works; highsun follows dawn. The apparent "skipping over" of Myrkul in the published lore from the period following Netheril's fall (which only references Amaunator and Lathander) suggests to me that the Dawn Cataclysm can be placed within the timestream, and that one of its consequences was the "dusk-free day" when the rightful place of Dusk (and Myrkul) in the cycle of the trio was usurped by Dawn (and Lathander). This might also have to do with the timing of the Dark Three's ascension to divinity, as well; if the Dark Three ascended after the Year of Sundered Webs, Jergal may have simply refused to step in as the Lord of Dusk after Amaunator's fall, thus precipitating both the Dawn Cataclysm and the ascension of the Dark Three; Jergal seems to have had enough of his jobs at that time by all of the accounts we have available to us.
Hopefully I've explained myself adequately here; the bit about the Dark Three was something of an epiphany as I was typing... and it just occurred to me now that this might be the other side of the origin of the name "Dark Three"... they are, in some ways literally, the Children of Dusk, even though only Myrkul succeeded to that particular portfolio. To summarize:
1) Amaunator falls with the collapse of Netheril;
2) Jergal in his ennui declines to ascend as the Lord of Dusk;
3) Lathander, the Morninglord, ascends out of sequence, causing (in some way) the Dawn Cataclysm;
4) The mortals who would become the Dark Three find Jergal and claim their prizes, but too late to preserve the natural order and prevent the Dawn Cataclysm.
These events happen over the course of several years, I would assume; from what I've read, Amaunator's fall was very gradual, not sudden, and it was only Lathander's ascension that was in any way abrupt or immediate in its effects.
Thoughts on this? Ashe? Sage? Others? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 14 Apr 2010 04:58:03 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 13:30:04
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quote:
Originally posted by JakkFall of Netheril (Year of Sundered Webs, -339 DR): Amaunator begins to fade; Lathander apparently rises to pre-eminence in his place.
ToT (Year of Shadows, 1358 DR): Myrkul dies, having apparently never held equivalent status to Amaunator or Lathander... although the year name is appropriate in that sense.
After the fall of Netheril, we have dawn succeeding highsun. That doesn't happen unless the natural order has been mucked around with. Amaunator succeeding Lathander is a naturally expected succession based on how the world (regardless of which one) works; highsun follows dawn. The apparent "skipping over" of Myrkul in the published lore from the period following Netheril's fall (which only references Amaunator and Lathander) suggests to me that the Dawn Cataclysm can be placed within the timestream, and that one of its consequences was the "dusk-free day" when the rightful place of Dusk (and Myrkul) in the cycle of the trio was usurped by Dawn (and Lathander). This might also have to do with the timing of the Dark Three's ascension to divinity, as well; if the Dark Three ascended after the Year of Sundered Webs, Jergal may have simply refused to step in as the Lord of Dusk after Amaunator's fall, thus precipitating both the Dawn Cataclysm and the ascension of the Dark Three; Jergal seems to have had enough of his jobs at that time by all of the accounts we have available to us.
Hopefully I've explained myself adequately here; the bit about the Dark Three was something of an epiphany as I was typing... and it just occurred to me now that this might be the other side of the origin of the name "Dark Three"... they are, in some ways literally, the Children of Dusk, even though only Myrkul succeeded to that particular portfolio. To summarize:
1) Amaunator falls with the collapse of Netheril;
2) Jergal in his ennui declines to ascend as the Lord of Dusk;
3) Lathander, the Morninglord, ascends out of sequence, causing (in some way) the Dawn Cataclysm;
4) The mortals who would become the Dark Three find Jergal and claim their prizes, but too late to preserve the natural order and prevent the Dawn Cataclysm.
These events happen over the course of several years, I would assume; from what I've read, Amaunator's fall was very gradual, not sudden, and it was only Lathander's ascension that was in any way abrupt or immediate in its effects.
Thoughts on this? Ashe? Sage? Others?
Amaunator's Fall and Lathander's rise is probably seeded by the Fall of Netheril but didn't fully occur until years after (exact year unknown) but Amaunator was still around during the time of Anauria. I think they switched around the time of the Dawn Cataclysm. So yeah, as you said, it was a gradual occurence. Same thing for Amaunator's re-ascension, which was also gradual (as evidenced by the later 3E FR products) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6689 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2010 : 07:21:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
The cycle should have gone from highsun to dusk with the fall of Netheril, but Lathander somehow engineered his return to preeminence early.
Did he just?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 01:12:52
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
The cycle should have gone from highsun to dusk with the fall of Netheril, but Lathander somehow engineered his return to preeminence early.
Did he just?
-- George Krashos
Or not, given my earlier post... if Jergal simply refused to ascend in his role as Lord of Dusk, Lathander would be the only candidate left to fill the post being vacated by Amaunator. Of course, if Jergal's ennui was the result of the Morninglord's manipulations... that's a whole different scenario, and one that someone with more knowledge of the specific powers of the divine than I possess should handle. Generally, I'm satisfied with the way my theory works, but as I mentioned, I don't currently have all of the published lore at my fingertips, so if there are any discrepancies between my scenario and established pre-Spellplague lore, I'd like to know. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2010 : 09:26:57
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I think the timeline works. Here's how: Eric Boyd had said the trifold sun portfolio of dawn, day and dusk rotates in cycles, where one is always ascendant, another waning, and the 3rd has set, hidden "below the horizon" so to speak. For a brief while, when a portfolio sets, the remaining god is at his zenith, before the next god arises and the previously ascending god begins to wane.
I think Eric described it as looking at a rotating 4 sided die edge on, where you can see at most two faces, but never 3, with one face getting bigger as it rotates towards you and the other shrinking as it rotates away, then for a moment all you can see is one face as the receding face moves behind and then the hidden face rotates into view.
It is important to note that at the end of each cycle the bearer of the portfolio always "sets"--either dies or transforms into the new version. This is unavoidable.
Okay, so I think Jergal saw the writing on the wall; he saw that Amaunator was waning and Jergal was about to peak, and although it is hinted that Jergal was bored or suffering from ennui, my theory is rather that he was simply afraid; Jergal didn't want to exit gracefully when his dusk portfolio's time came around.
So Jergal "opted out"; he played hot potato or "tag, your it!" with the Dusk portfolio by gifting it to Myrkul. Like in "The Ring" where you can avoid your death by getting someone else to watch the video tape.
Grand History of the Realms indicates that Jergal surrendered his portfolio circa the Year of Boiling Moats in -359 DR, about 20 years before the Fall of Netheril. By doing so, he ensured that Myrkul would have the portfolio and ascend to the zenith of Dusk in the place of Jergal. Arguably, the Fall of Netheril WAS the height of Dusk and the setting of Amaunator's Day.
Not sure how long Dusk was at its zenith, but certainly the subsequent Fall of Jhaamdath was part of that period. Myrkul got to see the sun set on 2 fantastically powerful civilizations, and the collapse of civilization that led to the Chondathan diaspora, not to mention anarchic successor states that needed the Procession of Justice led by Tyr to restore order to a devastated land. That is some major dusk if you ask me! I think it safe to say that Dusk was in full bloom from around -339 DR at the Fall of Netheril, until around -238 DR when Tyr's Procession of Justice starts to clean things up and pacify Southern Faerūn.
But when did Lathander come along? We know Lathander was revered in Athalantar which was founded in 183 DR. He might have been around for awhile prior to that, but we know he couldn't have appeared much later. We don't know when Amaunator died, but seems like the Fall of Netheril was his likely demise, mythologically speaking. In Faiths & Avatars, I believe, it says something to the effect that Amaunator lingered for almost exactly 1000 years after the fall, before he died from lack of worship, which doesn't quite make sense, since Lathander was on the scene. But we could surmise that it was 1000 years before he was forgotten and his body turned up in the Astral Plane, but he really died for all intents and purposes in the Year of Sundered Webs.
Or alternatively we could postulate some sort of time-zone metaphor, where even though the sun is set in New York, it is still afternoon in California, such that Lathander had "risen" in the Heartlands, but his worship had not traveled North yet to the geographic sphere where Netheril had been to supplant the dwindling faith in Amaunator until some centuries later.
But the way it all shakes out, it seems pretty clear that Jergal dodged a bullet. All he had to do was lay low for awhile. Now that Lathander has left the building and Amaunator is back, Jergal is free to reclaim the dusk portfolio (which I think may still lie within the Crown of Horns with the remaining essence of Myrkul.) Or maybe Jergal really is done with all that. But that leaves Myrkul free to make a comeback, or some new guy, perhaps Cyric, or Kelemvor to try and take up the Dusk mantle.
But if you look at it in this way, the timeline still tracks very well. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2010 : 16:14:43
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2010 : 17:38:58
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| So if Jergal is really that old he must have dodged the bullet many times? Or, we know of Jergal's attraction to Shar, maybe Dusk was sort of a ''gift'' she uses to manipulate and kill gods. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2010 : 20:01:25
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Gray, you're very close to some of Ed's root (and NDA) lore on Jergal.
Bwoohahahaha, and so forth.
love,
THO |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2010 : 20:21:55
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| grey, that is scary, good but scary. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 05:38:25
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Why thank you lovely lady The Hooded One! I endeavor ever to be an attentive student of Realms lore, although at the moment I must confess I find myself somewhat giddy and distracted by teacher...  |
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Strife026
Acolyte
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 08:54:03
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Gray, the problem I see with your theory is that the newest campaign guide says that Amaunator transformed into Lathander on purpose, and did not die off. Of course, Im not sure if this falls in line with Ed's original idea but its canon now.
But it kind of makes sense that the dawn, highsun, and dusk portfolios might have belonged to one god originally. Sort of like a three faced god, similar to how Selune is seen in different forms with different phases of the moon or Angharradh in the Elven pantheon being three distinct Goddesses, and one side or persona takes charge depending on whatever phase is dominant at the time.
Maybe dusk originally belonged to Amaunator/Lathander but was stolen from them by Shar. She gives the portfolio to Jergal in return for an alliance of some sort, like to create Kezef the Chaos Hound who kills worshipers of the Gods which benefits Shar's final goals. The theft causes Lathander to appear early. The problem I have is that the dusk time of ascendancy seems to be skipped somehow. Why was the natural order skipped? Because of the theft Amaunator was able to disregard the natural order?
One thing that might have been the reason for Jergal giving Myrkul the Dusk portfolio is because of the worthlessness the portfolio had since Dawn took Dusks place as ascendant. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 14:23:12
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Day follows the dawn, and dusk follows the day. Netheril was Amaunator's Day. Dusk came when Netheril fell, and Myrkul was ascendant then for a good long while. Then the dawn came sometime around the start of Dale Reckoning--give or take a century or two, sometime between -238 DR and 183 DR, with the founding of Dale Reckoning to perhaps be even a likely birth of Lathander. Then Myrkul died and Lathander became supreme for a time, and now the dawn has turned into day with Amaunator emerging. Dusk will rear it's head shortly, have no fear.
Nothing was skipped. Each portfolio had it's time in the cycle in order. I am sure this cycle also extends backward in time going back to the Creation of the Sun by Selūne, and I am sure it has turned many times. There was certainly someone to hold the dawn portfolio back before Amaunator rose to ascendancy with Netheril. And a dusk before that, and a day before that, and a previous dawn and so on. |
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Amaunator
