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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 20:58:02
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The story has to make sense in its own context, though. Sometimes an explanation is too vague to contradict itself, and so it doesn't change the story. (David Weber's SF military series, the Honor Harrington novels, is a good example of that. There are only two contradictions to real-world science, and both are crucial to the story.)
It's all fine and good to say that it won't because it works to the "laws of story." That's actually what I was saying; the story comes first. But it doesn't work if the reader is distracted by inconsistancies.
It's pretty obvious you aren't a writer yourself. I don't mean that in a bad way, so please don't get huffy. But if you were, then you would understand the need to have too outlooks on any story: one outside (you and the reader) and one inside (the world and the characters). Both have to make sense, or the story falls apart. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 22:09:39
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| In addition to what Bookwyrm said, all good fantasy needs to have a foundation in realty, and a fairly strong one at that. If the audience/reader/whatever cannot even marginally relate to this world then they cannot stay interested. Its kind of the small steps of believability concept, where in you gradually move the audience towards the fantastic elements, rather than throwing them straight in; otherwise everything falls apart for the reader. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2003 : 01:28:12
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Some very good points Edain, and you too Bookwyrm.
While I agree mostly with what has been said here over the last several posts, I also find myself agreeing more and more with the (now) well established 'Dramatica: Theory of Story' principle. I have been studying this principle for the last several months, regularly using most of the ideas presented when crafting my own story-works. It discusses many of the opinions talked about here already, relative to the structure of the story. As well as this, it expands upon such topics as the Story Mind, the Overall Story Throughline (more about this on the website), the Main Character Throughline, the Impact Character Throughline, the Main Character vs. Impact Character Throughline.
It is located here. It is well worth the effort, and a wonderful resource aid, especially if you are, or intend to be a writer (published or no).
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2003 : 15:43:10
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I'm not a professional writer of fiction, but I edit novels, which often involves working with authors to improve their books, and looking out for all kinds of consistency. All fiction works according to the laws of story: things happen that are involving and dramatically and mythically appropriate. Depending on the mode, there is a thinner or thicker layer of realist verisimilitude pasted on top of that. In hard SF or mimetic literature, the book must *also* conform to how (the author understands) physical and social laws work. In swords and sorcery, things are usually constrained to match the reader's commonsense understanding of the world (people don't randomly float around or pass through each other), but not the laws of physics per se, and those concerns never *motivate* what happens.
Fundamentally, fictional worlds aren't 'like ours, except non-actual and with some differences'. That idea is just a category error. They are fundamentally fictive, mythic, like dreams, and then secondarily painted to look real in the realist sense. The magical quality is what makes them fiction, and where the deep 'relation' by the reader springs. |
Edited by - Faraer on 09 Dec 2003 15:46:40 |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2003 : 22:19:56
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| people have been sayin the reality of the FR r similar to our world and some have said they r different...in what aspects r we talking about? ive read the posts on this but im still a little confused on what aspects of the FR we r discusing |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2003 : 22:35:32
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Perhaps, the term 'laws of physics' was a bit too scientific. When I refered to that, I was of course refering to the laws that govern such basic function as gravity and fire. Now, while most people may not know the laws that govern these things, in general one knows that fire is warm and gravity holds one down. Of course literature does not have to be constrained by physics, but in general the same common sense rules (i.e. gravity, fire, water, ect.) do need to apply (in most cases). To randomly change such basic properties of the world, without any reason (and I mean any reason; you do not have to invent new laws of physics) it seems to be jarring, and in general detrimental to any piece of fiction. Of course, this varies based on how accepting your reader is, and I can only speak for myself, really.
Dracandos, the ways in which Toril (The Forgotten Realms) are similar to Earth are many. In general, the sciences of Earth are the same in Toril, that is that when you throw something up it comes down, or if you rub two sticks together they become hot. Also, similar customs, cultures, laws, economics, and government systems exist in Toril that do and have existed on Earth. The similarities are many, and in general Toril is Earth with magic, low technology, many new and different species and a different geography than Earth. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2003 : 03:38:34
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Actually I am sure I do not need to say this to Edain, Bookwyrm or Sage at all, but if the Forgotten Realms is taking place in a different Universe, it could very well be that the laws of physics are different. Not even the forgotten realms, any story really. Science fiction must stick with science as we know it unless somehow the author points out differences and explains them. But there is no problem with writers breaking scientific laws so long as the reader knows it is a different Universe from the Get go. I do not have a problem with any of the explanations that were given so far, they all sound good to me. I prefer to play the forgotten realms as originally conceived by its creators, which just as Edain said is a mosaic of various historical periods. Technological advancement does not interest me in the Forgotten Realms becasue it is not of the science fiction genre. Forgotten Realms should stay with the old world feel, and leave this new world behind. If you have a sci fi flavour to the realms that is fine. Just make sure it does not seep into the official material.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2003 : 15:19:06
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Once agin, not saying that I want the Realms to be "advanced." I'm speaking in general here.
And, regardless of how scientifically-challenged some people are, there are a lot of people out there that do know exactly what goes on when (for instance) light strikes an angled surface. AND, in point of fact, these are the sort of people who are actually reading the book in question. Most people who don't know that (again, for instance) one year and one planetary revolution are one and the same (excepting, in our case, a bit of yearly "change") are not likely to be reading anything more complicated than the sports highlights. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2003 : 01:34:12
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| i understand that most laws here must apply to Toril as well, things cannot be 2 much different becuz life must still be able 2 exist on that planet |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2003 : 01:40:15
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I have always assumed that fantasy world/settings could/would operate under a differing interpretation of the standard understanding of the 'laws of physics'. Any devotee of the Planescape setting would naturally realise this as fact. While sci-fi settings must have a firm grounding in the scientific bedrock of real-life science, fantasy settings can, and are expected to, stretch the limits of what is possible...to challenge our traditional understanding of many real-life concepts.
Most fantasy worlds in part, have a basis in real-life science (totally dependent upon the cultural period of the time of course), whether it be a cosmological model based on the principles of 17th-18th century Newtonian celestial mechanics, or a world that is in part shaped as a disc...resting upon a turtle's back that is itself, standing upon the shoulders of four giant elephants...
Fantasy worlds are supposed to expand (and sometimes even bend) the accepted standards of science...if they didn't...what fun would there being in reading them???.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2003 : 04:01:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
I have always assumed that fantasy world/settings could/would operate under a differing interpretation of the standard understanding of the 'laws of physics'. Any devotee of the Planescape setting would naturally realise this as fact. While sci-fi settings must have a firm grounding in the scientific bedrock of real-life science, fantasy settings can, and are expected to, stretch the limits of what is possible...to challenge our traditional understanding of many real-life concepts.
Most fantasy worlds in part, have a basis in real-life science (totally dependent upon the cultural period of the time of course), whether it be a cosmological model based on the principles of 17th-18th century Newtonian celestial mechanics, or a world that is in part shaped as a disc...resting upon a turtle's back that is itself, standing upon the shoulders of four giant elephants...
Fantasy worlds are supposed to expand (and sometimes even bend) the accepted standards of science...if they didn't...what fun would there being in reading them???.
WEll said sage!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2003 : 14:25:52
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Whoa your all getting into this way to seriously. Take the top hats and the suits off. Put out the fire. Get out of the big fancy chairs and put out the pipes. Its a fantasy game, of course its still going to have some strong line with science, after all there wouldnt be machines that gnomes and other people make. However this is also a world where magic is still alive. Still as in it is not yet dying out etc. Infact if anything its still getting stronger. Now in a world where magic is, and science is barely there, then science cannot prove magic wrong. To my belief if there were more tech and science in the realms whtn sooner or later said science would prove mamgic not to work. Then we would be getting into white wolfs version of mage. With paradox and such. After all what WOULD happen in the realm if people used science to find out that magic has no real base to hy it works. It works because a god says it works? Well if it works because your god says it does then why does my god say that magic is not real? Thats one out look on it. To the person with a god which states that magic cannot exist magic probably does not exist. Science in the long run, at least within the realms to me, is its own god. Science makes people and lifes move on and advance. Much like a god caring for people does. It blocks out things that simply cannot possibly exist as well. Magic really has NO BASIS, as to why it actually works in the realms. The only basis is that gods say it does. What also happens if people pop techno crap out their yin-yangs and forget about their gods in search of science? Would that mean that, magic no longer exists? OMG NOOO! I dont want to loose magic magic is more freedom then science ARGGGH! Look what you have me started on! *Sets loose his zombie terminators lol*
Anyway in the long run you have to juggle the ideas. If you do not believe in it. What happens to it? Science does in many ways prove that magic does not exist. Gods be damned. Science is over powering even them. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2003 : 00:50:58
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::hands Cult Leader a top hat and a pipe:: 
For a very long time, no one could figure out how or why the stars (and especially our sun) kept shining for thousands of years. That doesn't mean that science disproved its existance -- just that no one figured it out yet.
In the same way, no experiment in the Realms could prove magic didn't exist, because it would be obvious that it did. All that would happen would be that people would have to say "I dunno." |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2003 : 06:52:14
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| The who and the what? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2003 : 08:01:09
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'Prestige Races' were a concept introduced in the Oathbound campaign setting, and expanded upon in Dragon Magazine #304.
Basically, a PC can expend XP to alter it's form and gain new abilities using a pre-designed list of feats that provide these benefits to the character.
All PC's must first select the 'Sculpt Self' feat in order prepare themselves for the other feats they will eventually select from the different feat-pathways available (and detailed in that DM issue). The changes can be as subtle as an increased INT ability score, or rather obvious, like the growth of a pair of wings.
The 'Prestige Race' feat-pathways, or as the magazine says 'foci' are 'Mineral/Earth', 'Flame', 'Wave', 'Wind', 'Gear', and 'Soul'. Each foci has roughly three feats in them, and they provide progressively differing levels of alterations for your PC.
The 'Gear' focus sees a PC follow the path of technology rather than magic, using gears, pulleys, psitons, and levers to implement physical change.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2003 : 14:08:14
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| Yes that very very wrong. Thats making you a mutant. If you want to have your form twisted in many new ways then just become a chaos mage and go out with a large bang. Uber power baby yeah. So what if in the path of stone your lungs and body turn into a statue or the snake path you become a snake and and and ... I hate top hats they look ugly to me. *puts on a nice fed* mmm style.. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2003 : 17:32:31
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Nah, a top hat would look better with that avatar. A fedora would make it look like Cult the Demon 'Unta -- crik-ay, moit! (Sincere appologies to Sage, Lina, Bluntman, and all other non-annoying Australians.)
Of course, fedoras are cool anyways. Both my active characters wear them. For the first, I wanted a "different" look for a half-elven wizard. For the second . . . well, you almost have to have a fedora with a swashbuckler-like character!  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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RogueAssassin
Learned Scribe
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2003 : 21:07:42
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personally i think smoke powder in the realms is not all that bad. Pistols and flinltlock rifles seem simple when compared to the magics of the elves and the enginuity of the gnomes. I mean whats a pistol got againts a fireball or a experianced swing of the axe or sword? i can understand a low lvl character using a weapon like this but 1d10 points of damage isnt that great when compared to a lvl 5 wizards fireball or lightining bolt. I do think however that damage for ranged weapons should be somehow changed, though i like the simplicity of it. A well placed arrow can drop anyone. there should be a option or feat like power attack for ranged weapons where you can take from your ac or lose your next turn to maximize damage.
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"Spirit. Its a Heros strength, a mothers resiliance, and the poor mans armor. It cannot be broken and it cannot be taken away. This i must belive"---Drizzt Do'Urden |
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2003 : 23:32:47
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I simply sat that fearun is a land of sword and magic.
However that path can be changed
For many tears wise and smart people learned and tought magic to their succesors but after the invention of gunpowder they may thing that improved arms could be a better use in battle.
However if we look to our own world we can easily see a certain competion between two rivals (as SSUR and USA) and thousands years of collected knowlage of the most inteligent and wisest man the world
If we accept the certain terms of physics and the materials existed in fearun many of the inventions can be real
BUT where is the big competion and the forsaken magic.
Well, competion is everywhere as it was as in or worls over thousandes of years. But nearly geniuses to make change use magic and they wont give that power so easily. It will need many years for scholars to focus on tech instead of other issues. Therefore everything is possible After that it will be imposible for civilized societise to make high level fighter(tops 5th level)
But there needs to be lots of changes that includes many centuries.
Those are only because of a simle reason that fearun and such worlds are not created for that reason. We can simply spoil what we have and love or we can improve it |
Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
Edited by - Jander Sunstar on 13 Dec 2003 00:25:51 |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2003 : 04:46:48
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The unfortunate thing here, is we are all constricted by the term "laws of physics" when refereing to basic concepts like gravity and fire. Honestly, the parallels between the real world and a fantasy world do not have to be many, Planescape is a good example. However, certain basic parallels must exist. Really, only hte most basic of things are necessary, like breathing air, and even that can be throw out the window with suffciant cause. However, there should always be an anchor. Even a basic one.
Also, I top hats, but only if I am wearing a bowtie. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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sabre
Acolyte
Turkey
47 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2003 : 10:15:48
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I dont say that hightech should involve in Toril but in my own campaign some nations have already found smokepowder,steam engine and firearms as cannons(they could not make more complex weapons such as muskets yet).and a railroad is a question of time.I didnt decide where to build it but some of my npcs found the exact technology.
I think that a little technology such as rilroad,steam engine ships or cannons will spice up games a little.Think about it a horde of barbarian orcs are assaulting a well armed with canons and muskets regulars of say such as cormyrian...
If you remember about arcanum it was fun. |
sabre |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2003 : 12:46:07
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Some good points Edain .
You said -
quote:
...However, certain basic parallels must exist. Really, only hte most basic of things are necessary, like breathing air, and even that can be throw out the window with suffciant cause...
I'm glad you added the 'even that can be throw out the window with suffciant cause', because as we both know, there are some outer planes without any breathable (oxygen) atmospheres whatsoever.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 14 Dec 2003 12:46:50 |
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2003 : 22:51:17
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Everything is possible among planes. Nevertheless there are planets with different atmospheres as Sage said and it is discussed if there can be intelegent species that are adapted to other atmospheres. It is known that there is a bug kind of thing living in about 3000 degrees celsius.
But in Toril physic laws seem to be the same as the earth. However if it is not what differences there are, it must be clear. Simply if it is like as it seems every technological improvement is possible in a acceptable period of time and those change the whole Toril.
I think the atomic theory or the basics of chemistry and mechanics are not different than ours so everything is possible.
I also think gunpowder(an example of modern tech) is normal to be found in Kara-Tur cause Chines invented it a long time ago but that knowlage in fearun is not a very good idea it is lethal and it can be improved very fast in this very compatitive region just as after the gun powder discovered by the western civilization.
I want to say laws of physics is not a problem in Toril maybe in planscape(I don't know anything about it) and other planes but Toril is very alike to our world(it is not nesecery but after those books my impresion is that way) and the advanced science is optional depending on social balances, existing knowlage and needs of governing and simple people.
Possible scenerio battle between gods destroys the half of the world and many gods. Ao stands still as he was everytime. The faith starts to fade because of that destruction and people start to think the gods as powerful wizards of some sort.Because of that they turn agains wizardy and hunt them some hide, some die, some flee. After several centuries in a time of no magic and no gods tech starts to be discovered to help people's needs
I like Toril this way and we are smart people and capable of evaluating the status of toril.Sth have to be adjusted to keep that logical.I can play a mediaval campaign or 18th century campaing as well as starwars campaign.I like all of them and I won't to see no changes in any that spoil the basics
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Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 17:25:55
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That senario reminds me of the one in that of-quoted story of mine. (I know I mention it too much, but it's such a good example -- and hey, I'm an expert on this particular world.  ) Except that after the Great War, even high technology is seen as dangerous. That doesn't mean that people destroy mundane stuff that they've lived with; it means that the current level becomes stagnant. If it's new and different, it's not good. (Sort of the opposite of modern America, no?)
For example, a guy in what would be Switzerland in our world invented the steam engine for pretty much the same reason that it was developed in Scotland in the real world. However, the locals decided that the inventor had summoned a demon (or other spirit, if they were feeling charitable) into the Cold Iron prison of the machine. (Hey, it was smoking and chuffing.) They lynched him and pushed the machine over a cliff.
As for gunpowder, it's known, as I said. It's considered highly dangerous in Europe for much the same reasons as in the Realms, but some countries do have arquebus units; and gunpowder is easy to make, if you know how, so it's hard to stamp out anyway.
In Asia, it's the dominant form of warfare, filling in where there isn't enough magic to go around. The Cantonese (Chinese) and Nipponese (Japanese) are duking it out like France and England, and with such a large front (each have colonies stretching to Australia, and Nippon is close to finding New Zealand) gunpowder is filling a very large power vacuum.
Now we come to the issue of the Realms. I don't think that smokepowder weapons will ever be useful there until a situation like in my story arises. That is, until magic is no longer enough to fill the needs of a nation's military goals.
It's simple enough. Just like it's proving hard to develop alternative energy sources here, due to how cheap gasoline is to supply (in comparison to the cost of R&D over the next decade or so, plus development of the necessary infrastructure), smokepowder won't be a common tool of war in the Realms until supply and demand for battle magic becomes radically different.
Smokepowder is barely up to the way it was used in The Lord of the Rings. It's essentially a volatile (al)chemical powder that has no use but to blow things up. As far as I know, most people don't know about gunpowder weapons in the Realms, though rifles exist.
Which is stupid. The first use of gunpowder weapons as a projectile would be either as a rocket or a cannon. The first is easier to make, the second more destructive at a low tech base. Hand-cannons wouldn't be around for some time. It's been what, less than a decade since Gond taught Faerunians about smokepowder? There's no way that hand-cannons should be in use in that short a time. Grenades, sure. Not personal weapons. It's just a matter of logic. Unless Gond taught them how to make them as well, no one will think about it for a while. It took the Chinese a lot longer to go from simple gunpowder to rockets, and Europeans to go to cannon and then guns (shorter than the first stage, sure, but longer than a decade).
Okay, so anyone can use rifles, whereas few people can use wands. But do you actually understand what it is? It's something that has a high likelyhood of blowing your face off. Faced with that, grenades are more likely as an acceptable adventurer's weapon, and even then only in certain situations. It's most certainly not a "Hey, this could be cool to use" tool. It's probably more cost-effective to hire a mage if you really need the firepower.
As for other industrial tools . . . sure, railroads and such would be useful. But magical propulsion would be the first thing a Faerunian would think of, not steam power. The basic physics of the world have to be about the same as Earth -- this I maintain. But with the extra variable of magic, you need to remember that if it's not powered by magic, muscles, wind, or water, then it's going to take a true "out-of-the-box" thinker to come up with it.
I think that it's far more likely to think of a "technological" Faerun as based on magic, not electricity like ours. Think, for instance, of a connection between important cities (say, Waterdeep and Silverymoon) where "pulses" are registered at each end in a sequence. It's a magical telegraph, folks, and without any pesky wires. Perhaps a few booster stations (like signal towers) would be needed, but it would be harder to knock out than real telegraphs were. (No lines to knock down in a storm, and the stations would surely be guarded.)
Only a very low caster level would be needed for this; it's akin to bursts of static. No need for reproduction of voices (though that would still be possible for important messages), so the power requirement would be very low. It would be easier to tap into than telegraphs were; it would be as easy as tapping into an unscrambled cell call today. Even so, non-sensitive information would travel very quickly. This would be very useful for the Lord's Alliance, don't you think?
But I doubt that many DMs would want this. Something like this is pretty small, but it opens the way for other advances. It begins, in essance, to destroy the setting. Not as much as "normal" technology would, of course, but it starts to change it. Mages would have pretty assured jobs in the future, of course, though they'd probably have to go get degrees in order to get them. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2003 : 21:29:33
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You are absolutely right about even small technological changes will encourage others. This is I agree and this is the most normal thing, for instance population is increasing thus there will be much more consumption and will be needed more production. This is a very acceptible logic.However as you said it will destroy the whole setting.
But the one thing I disagree is people will advance faster than you said especially in weaponary. Gond thought people how to make gunpowder, but people are smart enough to improve that to make hand cannons. If that was in a very isolated and lesser compatetive region such as Kara_Tur(like china) that wouldn't be a great deal but it is known in Heartlands and I believe in north.Imagine if one crazy man invented a more easily and effective used arquebus and one nation gets that info and starts to make more to make an army, wouldn't that info encourages other nations to steal or improve that tech. Gunpowder in far east hasn't been improved for maybe a 1000 year but it took only a couple of centuries to make panzers.
Some small magic bound techs would spice up the game though, such as simpler crystalballs for comunacation or grenedes made by explosives(they both are used).The thing I m unconfortable is a big change or illogical stability.Tech should be bound to magic to keep it all going well.
The only thing is keeping the balance or setting will be a mess
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Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2003 : 08:41:41
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I've been thinking of a particular granade-like weapon my brother made for one of his first books. It was . . . highly effective in clearing the walls of the Hermit's Peak fortress during a seige.
I also thought that it would be possible to make a magical version of a walkie-talkie. Very expensive, of course, but perhaps not as much as it would seem at first.
Perhaps now that I've got some more free time I can sit down and work up some specs for those. I'll have to add a warning (Think Before Use) to that second one, though. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2003 : 23:03:01
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walkie-talkies are great players cannot kill a guard and go on easily then.I thought telepathical ring for that purpose but I thouht those kind of rings are very rare and I gave up
AmI wrong can these telepathy rings be with every patrol team captain? maybe in only a very important castle or a vip's domain captains may have those? |
Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
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Jaysen Darclyght
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2004 : 02:59:44
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Well, i haven't been here for a while, but, i haven't been sitting on my rear either.
Over the last few months I have seen various documentaries about some of the simple gear driven devices of the ancient Greeks. Namely the Antikythera (SP?) device. A current theory is that it could track the location of planets, the moon, the day, time, and date. THE GREEKS MADE THIS!! Not some nineteenth century swiss man!
Even if Faerun is at a Medieval tech level, it is concievable, and totally logical for such devices to have existed or to exist today.
Mournblade referenced how in his campaigns, his ships are advanced (Clippers w/o guns). Do some of you realize the math and science that are necessary for such a complex arrangement of canvas? You might notice that before gunpowder, ships were small, slow, and blocky, and also downright ugly. It was the need for speed that accompanied the advanced weapons that evolved ships to their modern state, so without guns, how might you have clipper ships eh? Where would the physics and math originate from? In a magic world like Toril, they can't! You'd have to rely on magic sails for extra speed.
Bookwyrm mentioned how technology could be stagnated by the many species in FR, but wouldn't conflicts advance it? With a 10000 year history, and a conflict ridden history, it is amazing that they still are in the middle ages, magic or no magic!
Someone mentioned how peace propagates technological development, true, to an extent. War is really what invigorates science, not healthy peaceful science, mind you, but science none the less. It is the peace after the war where technology grows by leaps and bounds, and in periods of cold war technology grows faster due to the arms races and such.
This was the longest winded thing i've said for some time.
But one more thing.
I'm sorry ahead of time for bringing up a totally different genre, but in the recent Star Wars books, the New Jedi order, they have killed off Chewbacca   and Anakin Solo (Han and Leia's third kid, after the twins, Jacen and Jaina). How did they do this, BY COMMITEE!
Perhaps that is why Toril is advancing, albiet slowly, the authors aren't making it up, a COMMITEE IS! THE HUMANITY!
Ciao.
-Jaysen Darclyght-
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2004 : 11:26:51
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Hey, just be glad it's not a gnome committee, those things can take years to determine a course of action . . .
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Technology in the Realms
