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Gabriel_theArch
Acolyte
Turkey
5 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Sep 2004 : 17:51:35
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Where can i find info about demons and devils
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Edited by - Gabriel_theArch on 13 Oct 2004 19:12:56
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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe
185 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2004 : 14:18:07
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| Well you could look at the manual of the planes it details their home and organization including some demon and devil descriptions. Plus the Book of Vile Darkness has info on many things including a list of the more interesting fiends. |
Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2004 : 15:39:09
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The original AD&D conceptions: 1977 Monster Manual; 1983 Monster Manual II
In the Realms: "The Nine Hells" (Dragon #75, 76, 91); Elminster in Hell; hundreds of sourcebook and novel references
In Planescape: Planes of Chaos; Planes of Law; Hellbound; etc.
In 3E: Various sources as stated above. Several third-party books. |
Edited by - Faraer on 15 Oct 2004 15:39:33 |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2004 : 17:40:58
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| If you can get your hands on a copy of the old Outer Planes appendix to the Monstrous Compendium (it's out of print) there's a good deal of interesting societal information on the denizens of the lower planes in the individual entries. The various incarnations of the Manual of the Planes are good, and so is the new Book of Vile Darkness. Monster Manual I and II are good, both the old and the new. |
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Dark_Lord
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 09:53:57
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| You should try with Fiend Folio also. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 13:27:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Gabriel_theArch
Where can i find info about demons and devils
Despite the sources provided already by the other scribes in this scroll, the single BEST tome you can purchase on all things Demon and Devil, is the 2e PS accessory, Faces of Evil: The Fiends. It's written by Colin McComb. It's also an all-fluff tome, so, there's virtually no "crunch"... 
The tome also provides some delicious information on both the yugoloths, and the gehreleths... the other fiendish races of the Outer Planes.
However, if you're looking for specific information, contact me privately... I will be able to help  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 16 Oct 2004 13:33:15 |
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rafa42
Acolyte
Poland
7 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 11:55:34
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| Can enyone tell how hight in demon hierarhy was demon with who drizzt fought-Ertu I think-and what is name of his kind,I know tanari it is name to all demons. |
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Taelohn
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 17:46:20
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Errtu was a balor.
For the devils of Hell, I would also suggest taking a look at The Gates of Hell - a recent PDF fan project with new and improved flavour (based on some of the Planescape stuff and other sources), and v.3.5 stats for everything (ones that give powerful devils - espically the Lords of the Nine - their proper due, unlike the Book of Vile Darkness). Chapters 7-9 (Dukes of Hell, Arch-Devils, and Lords of the Nine) are underway.  |
Edited by - Taelohn on 29 Oct 2004 17:49:23 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 15:02:16
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quote:
Originally posted by rafa42
Can enyone tell how hight in demon hierarhy was demon with who drizzt fought-Ertu I think-and what is name of his kind,I know tanari it is name to all demons.
There is no such concept as "a heirarchy of the Abyss"... at least, not in terms any mortal would understand.
The Abyssal Lords are the true heads of power in the Abyss... and that's as far as the power structure goes. Beyond that, are the Balor Nobles, and their personal power pyramids (at the top of which, is were they see themselves).
Survival of the fittest is the order of things in the Abyss. The balor that helps you gain an advantage against your enemy one day, may be the balor that needs to be eliminated the next when his very existence threatens your pursuit of power in the Abyss. The important point here is that every regarding the scope of power in the Abyss is always fluctuating. Planar sages are driven to the near brink of insanity trying to map the ways of the Tanar'ri lords.
To put it simply... a demon, is answerable to himself, and his desires only. Nothing else matters...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 16:51:08
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Sage is correct. It's nearly impossible to have a heirarchy for demons because then that would mean there is order among them. Demons are the most chaotic creatures in the world so there is no strict order or level for them.
This is also why they can't win the Blood War, because demons are too chaotic to put together create orderly and true battle formations. On the other hand, you would have a easier time finding a heirarchy for devils as they are of the lawful alignment. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 02:30:46
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
This is also why they can't win the Blood War, because demons are too chaotic to put together create orderly and true battle formations. On the other hand, you would have a easier time finding a heirarchy for devils as they are of the lawful alignment.
Theoretically, the Tanar'ri could triumph in the Blood War, rather satisfyingly actually. Order and strategy is just part of the problem when it comes to what the Tanar'ri laughingly call "battlefield tactics".
You see, any tanar'ri is just as likely to attack the demon standing next to him for some imagined slight three centuries ago in the heart of a battle, as they are to attack a group of guardinals posing as a patrol for a celestial caravan. Just as likely, a full-scale assault against one of the layers of the Nine Hells would definitely result in a dismal failure because, at some point, a large majority of those demons may start fighting amongst themselves in order to attain further power, or they may even leave the battlefield entirely and attempt to breach a 'loth stronghold in the Wastes. The point here, is that tanar'ri tactics are simply too chaotic to work successfully for any length of time in order to obtain any goals against an enemy. Add to that, the fact that any tanar'ri will attack any other creature not like itself (and this sometimes includes other tanar'ri, as mentioned above), even in the heat of battle, and this also illustrates why the hordes of demons have failed time and again to rid themselves of the devils and win the Blood War.
However, every celestial, and modron, and devil knows, that should the Blood War ever come down to a conflict of numbers... a war of attrition, the tanar'ri will always win... hands down  .
And that's, a rather frightening prospect, is it not? 
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 01 Nov 2004 02:35:25 |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 07:53:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And that's, a rather frightening prospect, is it not?
So, what about the layers of Baator, and the ways of promotion and individualism in the Nine Hells? How do the devils operate them?
Oh, and Alaundo, this is still on topic . Demons are fiends, as are devils . . .
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 08:36:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And that's, a rather frightening prospect, is it not?
So, what about the layers of Baator, and the ways of promotion and individualism in the Nine Hells? How do the devils operate them?
Oh, and Alaundo, this is still on topic . Demons are fiends, as are devils . . .
Well met
Ahh, welcome back, Lady Kazandra. I trust all is well
Oh worry ye not, i'm quite happy to read through such scrolls as this
::places staff of the irritated moderator + 5 close at hand, just in case::  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
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The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 14:40:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And that's, a rather frightening prospect, is it not?
So, what about the layers of Baator, and the ways of promotion and individualism in the Nine Hells? How do the devils operate them?
Oh, and Alaundo, this is still on topic . Demons are fiends, as are devils . . .
Tell me if this helps you to understand the Devils conception of things -
quote:
"Our kind prides itself on working as a team, as a unit, together. Imagine a great whole in cohesion, all parts smoothly operating in relation to eachother. That is the baatezu."
"Bah! Which is more important? 'We'? Or 'I'? What're you gonna say to that, Fahrlish?"
"Equally are they important, I say. 'We' is of more importance than 'I', while it is just as true that 'I' is of more importance than 'We'. One cannot exist without the other. Not in its perfection--as we are. Perfected, that is."
"That's contradiction you're spillin' there."
"It is? You must be mistaken. Everyone else considers it to be truth."
--One devil to another
That actually reminds me I read a while back, concerning a baatezu that had to do a truth-juggle, keeping all the different lies and deceits straight in her head, lest she succumb, too, to all of the propaganda spilled out by herself unto the rest of her kind. Which, in turn, reminds me of 1984, especially since I've retaken an interest in it lately.
"Call it double-think all you want, but I'm experiencing no cognitive dissonance here."
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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rafa42
Acolyte
Poland
7 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2004 : 10:21:51
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| Can you tell me how tanar'ri gain power,I know devils doing this by pain.I think there must be some spieces baset hierarchy in abbys,I know ertu was hight becowse he has midle level tanar'ri under him. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2004 : 16:13:03
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rafa, demons do the same thing as other races: kill, fight, backstab, steal; anything to get on top. You kill your rival and then take whatever he owned and do the same to others. Quite simple, really.
When Lolth first got banished to the Abyss, she basically killed any neighbour or rival that would dare attack her, and then the other weaker demons nearby would just pay tribute and swear alliegance to her. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2004 : 18:18:13
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quote:
Originally posted by rafa42
Can you tell me how tanar'ri gain power,I know devils doing this by pain.I think there must be some spieces baset hierarchy in abbys,I know ertu was hight becowse he has midle level tanar'ri under him.
well there is of course some hierarchy with the demons and devils but nothing completely detailing every single species in a step by step order of hierarchy. for ex. an erinyes is obviously lower than a pit fiend, but whos to say which is more powerful, a horned devil or an ice devil? it would be a matter of opinion would it not? |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Taelohn
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 01:38:22
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Demons are rather random, being creatures of Chaos. Devils are creatures of Law, though, and are rigidly structured in all they do.
If I remember correctly, it goes something like this (several of these are "dead-end" rankings, for devils not worthy of advancement):
Lemure -> Nupperibo* or Spinagon
Spinagon -> Hellcat, Barbazu, or Abashai
Abashai -> Erinyes, Hamatula, or Osyluth
Erinyes, Hamatula, or Osyluth -> Cornugon, Barregon**, Gelugon
Gelugon -> Pit Fiend
* Must be "demoted" to a lemure before being promoted to a spinagon.
** Must be "demoted" to a cornugon before being promoted to a gelugon.
Above these are the Dukes of Hell, the Arch-Devils, the Lords of the Nine, and Asmodeus, in that order. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 09:29:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Taelohn
Above these are the Dukes of Hell, the Arch-Devils, the Lords of the Nine, and Asmodeus, in that order.
I'll just add the one power-group missing in this comprehensive listing that was provided by Taelohn.
Between the 'Dukes of Hell' and the 'Arch-Devils', should be the 'Dark Eight'... the respective heads of each of the Nine Hells most important planar concerns.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 18:06:47
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| Sage, do you have any more information on the Dark Eight? Stats, maybe? I remember reading about how they were like the generals of the Nine Hells... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 05:21:12
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Sage, do you have any more information on the Dark Eight? Stats, maybe? I remember reading about how they were like the generals of the Nine Hells...
Nothing "official" unfortunately, as they've never been detailed beyond the point of their individual names, duties, and a little background.
A fellow PS online community devotee and myself worked on some basic details for several of the Dark Eight about two years ago on another forum. I can repost them here, or send them to you via ethereal mail if you'd like. However, I cannot remember whether Planewalker.com picked up our "conversions" for inclusion in the update for the PSCS3e. If that's the case, I will not be allowed to reproduce them here. You'll just have to wait until they're released.
Either way, I'll find out for certain, and then let you know . If I can't, I'll just provide a summary of the details from the relevant source material.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 17:03:42
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always helpful ay Sage? |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 15:00:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracandos the Spellsage
always helpful ay Sage?
Indeed . In fact, executing a search through the Candlekeep archives, I found that I've discussed the Dark Eight (briefly) before... around September last year.
Anyway, here's the basic details from that scroll -
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Cardinal, here's some 'juicy' information for you -
- BAALZEPHON, the Minister of Supply, is one of the two most ancient surviving members of the Eight, and the one who remains most free of entanglements with Baator's nobility. Baalzephon believes she most purely serves the purpose for which the Dark Eight were created, reducing the power of the Lords of the Nine.
- PEARZA is the Minister of Research.
The first Pearza is said to have been torn apart by maelephants, shortly after their creation. The second Pearza was shamed after he created the blood fiends, originally an attempt to create a disease that would wipe out the tanar'ri. The third Pearza was killed in an explosion in her workshop in Nessus, cause unknown. The fourth Pearza lives on, its mind held within a crystalline golem's body. The fifth Pearza, who had won fame as creator of a sweets factory in Minauros, was lost to the ice of Cania, led astray by the Lady Baalphegor.
- Perhaps the most ambitious of the Eight, the treacherous ZAEBOS is the Minster of Promotions. Zaebos appears as a stern-faced, humorless man; he is hairless, with skin of slate gray. He wears a formal suit, and keeps a crocodile as a pet. The crocodile is said to contain the spirit of his predecessor, the Sweet Soldier.
- ZAPAN, the minister of immortal relations, is as suave as Dagos is crude and intimidating. The original zapan is believed to have served no less than three Lords of the Nine before being recruited by Cantrum.
- DAGOS is probably the best known of all the Dark Eight, although he is also the least accessible. He does not appear publicly like Zimmimar does, but then again, he isn't replaced nearly as frequently. It would not do to replace the Marshall of the Pits, and the commander-in-chief of the Baatorian armies too often.
- CORIN, Spymaster. "Corin" is a name that few people would dare to speak aloud. Corin is the Watching Eye and the Alert Ear, He Who Never Sleeps, the Eavesdropping Shadow, and is still known by many names.
- FURCAS, Minister of Mortal Relations
- ZIMIMAR, Minister of Morale
That's all I have for basic information. There is more, but I think it would be best to just use ethereal mail...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2004 : 02:33:58
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| thanks for the info on The Dark Eight...so what are they exactly? are they devils themselves? |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
Edited by - Dracandos the Spellsage on 09 Nov 2004 02:36:50 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2004 : 14:08:43
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Yes.
Each member of the Dark Eight is really nothing more than a "glorified" Pit Fiend, who just happens to have the full support of the Arch-Devil who specifically selected each of these particular Pit Fiends because they happened to excel at whatever task they were assigned by their Lords. The current listing of the Dark Eight is not static, and there have been several changes to the listing over the millennia. Basically, each member holds their position at the whim of the Arch-Devil they serve. This unfortunately, leaves each and every member of the DE to regularly play the role of the "fall guy", should any baatezu plan go seriously awry...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2004 : 15:39:58
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| interesting, thank you for that final note |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2004 : 14:46:01
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Who said anything about that being "my final note"...?  I've got over 10GB of PS archives to look through before I've satisfied my search for all the "basic" information I have on the Dark Eight.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2004 : 22:06:53
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 damn 10 gigs just on ps? well id be interested to know any other interesting things you may find on the Eight |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2004 : 01:58:18
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In my search, I've found some particularly fascinating details about some of the more well-known members of the Dark Eight (I'd forgotten that I had this ). However, there's very little need for me to post it here since you're the only one looking for it, so I'll send it to you through PM  .
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Demons
