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Jaysen Darclyght
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Oct 2004 : 13:37:11
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Yeah, a Gnome commitee would be some kinda hell.
But since my last post I have become far more well read on the subject. And my technophilia has somewhat abated. However, its still there. For instance, in my campaign, the current setting is comparable to Earth c. 1870's, plus magic. So you have soldiers with rifles and repeaters, and less armor, but armor still exists. The main reason for this is that even with technology, magic still exists. For me, both magic and tech advanced and now the world has factories, and steamships, but like has been suggested here, magical telegraphs and lightning rails like from Eberon (God those are so cool). The reason for this is mainly because I saw a documenatary on the era on the History channel and I was intrigued at the possiblities.
But thats my world. And its about to go through a whole lotta fun...
As for Faerun, Since I bought the campaign setting, and gawked for endless hours over the Geography section, I have come to the realization that tech isn't so bad as it is now, and really isn't important in the whole scheme of things.
I mean when the Amnians invaded Maztica, they had conquistidor-esque equipment, minus guns, and they did alright. Had they guns, they would have done better, but when an entire city turns into monsters and attacks you, well. Guns or no guns, "You gonna die!". As for hte Gondish things, those aren't described as that advanced. They are, after all, mostly mechanical devices that are relatively simple in operation (by our standards at least). And from revalations about the Cleric Quintet from a friend of mine, much that comes out of Lantan, especially, the Gondish Priests, aren't much liked on the mainland Faerun.
But, at Crecy, the English had bombards, and that was the 1300's (i think). In the Legacy of the Drow, a pirate ship had one too.
I think that tech will improve in the realms as WOTC or whoever is ultimately in charge (aside from Ed Greenwood) of its DND aspects decides it.
But we can all learn a lesson from Return of the King...
6000 Men on horseback with spears galloping towards an army of nearly 200000 orcs with pikes and bows is so beautiful, i teared up when i watched. (brings tears to my eyes even now.)
So Tech isn't really needed in the Realms. Mainly its less glorious until its later days anyway. So...keep the tech progression slow, and long live beautiful cavalry charges! |
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Forlorn
Seeker
59 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 23:10:55
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I always thought that weave is very weak in earh so magic was not strong and common as it is in Fearun and I imagined that ones who master magic has incredible power according to normal peasants. And since they are the smartest population of their race they didn't need to advance in tech and they didn't want that too because tech allows standart peasant to be as lethal and sometimes more than wizards. But that's my thinking which matters nothing.
I don't like the idea of tech in realms because that will ruin all the mediavel concept. But I find the idea of never advancing tech stupid.
Thus I offer a point to compromise;
There are no enough saltpeter, oil or plutoniom in realms. There are some but it is not adequte to arm tens of generations all over the Fearun.
There are some but it is too expensive to mine or get in means of chemistry. Mages use them and they know there are not infinite sources so they keep those to themselves. And the level of education in realms is much worse than Bengaldesh. The ones who know how to read eventhough they are interested in physics and genuies like Newton, are unable to find a place to sharpen their intersts.
But of course there are people who are bright, wealthy and not consumed by magic and power. They look to the stars, inverstigate the movements of the planets, experiment with various elements and understand physics and chemistry. But how can they achieve anytinhg when their whole life practice and work can become meaningless in a few minutes when the royal mage finishes his spell of clarvoyancy or creates a lethal fireball.
To conclude, I believe Fearun is differnt then our world in many aspects and there are not enough saltpeter as well as many other materials in Fearun like there are not any metal in the realm of Dark Sun but if a crazy adventurer finds a place where saltpeter is like grass on the plains his patron would be a powerful enemy to anyone if he finds out how to use that material. But that resource would be limited and magic would be like infinite. Thus, for economical reasons wizards wielding fireball wands would be more benefitial than an army of masketeers. Therefor technology of fire arms will not be improved.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 06:09:41
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In order for saltpeter or petrolium to be rare, you have to change a lot of things about the environment. Saltpeter shows up in places of high nitrification. It's rock salt! How can you not have rock salt? As for petrolium, that's a geological process acting on organics in areas of marsh or swamp over millions of years. In order not to have petrolium, you would need either no marshes, or no marshes until recent history, or a level of geological shake-up that would preclude the survival of any sort of "normal" life.
As for your comment about the Weave being weak on Earth, I'd go a bit farther and say it doesn't exist there. Or anywhere but Toril.  The "Weave" is a formalized, ordered structure that makes up magic in this setting. It doesn't just mean "magic." |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 06:46:48
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Look, the only options we have here is to either admit the realms has a limited lifespan as we know them, and eventually technology will proceed much as it did on earth, and just adapt it, play in the past, or move on with the times. Or, we use any of a number of heavy handed illogical methods to keep them at the level of technology, of them, saying "because a god says so" seems to be as good as any other.
it's like just shrugging and saying "a wizard did it" whenever you see something weird, but hey, it works. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 07:46:28
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Technological change will happen the way it does with Eberron. Mystra will encourage this, most likely, since it's what her predecessor was doing, spreading magic around so it isn't just in the hands of an elite few the way it was in Netheril. (Frankly, I like that as a reason why magic items seem to be all over the place waiting for an adventuring party comes along.)
You also have to consider, though, that unless we have constant RSEs this won't happen quickly. Many people (including the Harpers) are conservative, and I don't mean the political term. It's people like that who outlawed smokepowder, citing how dangerous it is and how easily it destroys even by accident. Many people simply don't trust the new and different, not because they can't change but because they have no experience with it. Also, unlike Eberron, the Realms is somewhat chaotic. Eberron had a large kingdom, with a stable-ish society, to build the magic "railroad." The Realms can't support anything like the lightning rail as it stands, because brigands are too dangerous between cities and the lines too difficult to protect from sabotage. The same goes for the "wireless telegraph" idea I mentioned long ago on this same thread, which I noted would be easy to disrupt and/or tap into. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 10:12:22
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| Bookwyrms right there. Unless magic started dwindling like it did in the later dragonlance novels technology would have to start taking over. Or if there was a population boom of every race in faerun then gnomish inventions would take precendence over use of magic to cater to everyones needs. There would be limited resources and limited space which cannot be readily solved through the use of magic on a long-term basis and improvements in technology would be the only solution to the need of a growing population. |
“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!”
"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 12:19:03
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Indeed. Without the use of increasingly repetitive RSes, technology will rise eventually, it is just a matter of deciding how long we are willing to delay it. We could always put a hit out on Lantan and whack it Atlantis style... but that would slow down the progresss oftechnology to a fair degree... until it's secrets were recovered by successive generations of seekers.
In the end, tech will come to faerun, and personally, I want to see what the realms would look like in the Industrial, Information, and Fusion/Gravity ages.
Just not today. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Forlorn
Seeker
59 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 21:21:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
In order for saltpeter or petrolium to be rare, you have to change a lot of things about the environment. Saltpeter shows up in places of high nitrification. It's rock salt! How can you not have rock salt? As for petrolium, that's a geological process acting on organics in areas of marsh or swamp over millions of years. In order not to have petrolium, you would need either no marshes, or no marshes until recent history, or a level of geological shake-up that would preclude the survival of any sort of "normal" life.
As for your comment about the Weave being weak on Earth, I'd go a bit farther and say it doesn't exist there. Or anywhere but Toril. The "Weave" is a formalized, ordered structure that makes up magic in this setting. It doesn't just mean "magic."
I cannot agree you more, Bookwyrm about the phsical facts. But there are several kingdoms like Cormyr, Sembia and in a very short time Tethyr. I remind you that in USA I think after civil war inspite of the bandits the construction of the railroads continued. And even in most chaotic times of medieval times around 14th century, the Ottoman empire was using canons. And if I m not mistaken when the musketeers are used for infantry Europe was not a stable and pieceful continet.
My point is technology should have advanced in Toril to this day. It didn't for there is no place for tech in realms because of the concept of magic and swords. And it will not in the future. I don't want no firearms, tanks or nukes in realms and I don't want the idea of their being in the future. I wat to believe that realms is a differnt place than earth and I don't want it to become one.
There can be other words where tech and magic can embrace each other but Fearun is not the one.
We can argue about why tech didn't advance but we can't argue how it will. Maybe physic rules work differently there and saltpeper is not a material that can be found that easily. There can be as many reasons as man can imagine but I rather accept that the rules of physics work different in Fearun and that is the effect of the weave. Therefore tech will not advance and things will stay as they are. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 21:27:09
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That wasn't actually what I was saying.
On the one hand, as mentioned, war means progress, at least in a brute-force sense. World War I started out with the automobile as the toy of the rich. It ended with it as a weapon of war and on its way to being a common machine. For something like this to happen in the Realms, you need tons of RSEs and some very inventive people.
On the other, peace is needed for other things. As I said, you can't build a railroad, or a lightning rail, connecting Waterdeep and Silverymoon in the present-day Realms. You would need to first tame every stretch of land between the two cities, or your enemies would just sabotage it. It only takes a little section to toss a train moving at thirty miles an hour, whether you use a railroad or a lightning rail. Would it happen a lot? No, but the threat would keep people from using it at all, which means it's suddenly not cost-effective.
Now, on to the other thing you both seem to have missed. Magic isn't stagnant. It moves up and down, and there are many powerful spells that used to be known by Netheril that can't be used anymore. (I still maintain that epic spells are forbidden in the Realms, but that's another topic.) However, we also have a more codified system of magic now. It's still an Art, but it's also on the way to being, if not a science, then a craft.
Unless the gnomes outpace things, which is possible, then in the future it's not unlikely that magic will be further simplified. This would make way for cheaper magic items, so perhaps instead of modern pistols, you might have small rods (as anyone can use a rod) of a lesser orb-type spell, where you could fire single-shot orbs out of "magazines" made of some spell-storing crystal. When it's depleted, you stick in another crystal and go back to firing. For something like an AK-47, you could use one at caster level 5 (or less, if things get simpler that way too) to fire a three-orb burst. Full auto-fire can't be described under the current rules for D&D, but for that you just have to go to d20 Modern.
Then there are countless ways to make other conveniences we ourselves have today. Prestidigitation-enchanted items would make for just about any cleaning tool -- the equivalent of a vacuum cleaner, for instance, or a dish washing machine. Items enchanted with whispering wind would make for cell phones, especially if you have a central location to route calls -- which, handily, is what is used in the modern world. Or, perhaps, enchant crystals to be placed into a larger device using magic mouth -- stereos, anyone? Add silent image and you've got a televison.
Regardless of how fast the gnomes work, magic will be the first thing that anyone in the Realms will think of when they look for doing something an easier way. And with places like the Lady's College in Silverymoon, we'll be getting more wizards than we might have had since Netheril. Every wizard will want to cast a good old fireball, but where's the money in that? It's really only good on a battlefield, and you can't cast it in Silverymoon anyway, not without a token.
If you go to the Lady's College to learn a profession -- and while there are a lot of adventurers, especially the get-rich-quick crowd, there'll be plenty looking for stability rather than danger -- the best bet is in the service side of things. Scribing scrolls doesn't help much, but potions can be used by anyone -- that makes for a good business. (Selling potions of eagle's splendor to rich teenagers -- or adults -- would likely be a common thing. It's easier to get to work than tricking someone into drinking one of charm person.) Then there are other things -- as guards, for instance. A sixth-level wizard with Extend Spell can cast a 24-hour alarm spell and use arcane lock on a safe. Or in a support capacity -- imagine using enlarge person on multiple workers (or mass enlarge person, if at least seventh level), enabling them to load or unload a boat at the docks that much faster. And don't forget casting resist energy [fire]] on someone trying to clear out a burning building.
I could go on with more "normal" ways of using wizard spells, but you get the idea. And with more people using these in everyday life, the novelty will wear off and people will be expecting it all the time -- or, alternatively, there won't be enough wizards to go around. Either way, research will begin to create more spells -- either easier ones, ones that do more, or ones that use the same amount of energy to do something with a more narrow focus. As that goes on, you'll start getting into "magitech." Rather like Eberron. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Forlorn
Seeker
59 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 21:52:55
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That makes sense, Bookwyrm.
Magitech can be in realms to my likings but it is far away at least for two or three centuries.
And magitech is a much better term than technology in realms.
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 22:24:19
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| The deciding factor may not be the ability to produce or discover new technological methods, but if these methods will be cheaper/easier than those of magic. Should mages develop a more efficient means of crafting magical items, I doubt tech will increase much. If not, then some kind of co-existence will ensue, with tech being the tool of the common man and magic becoming used for more (not to be redundant) mystical things, such as healing, teleportation, and so on. I like the idea of technology that uses enchanted materials, and spelltech has some opportunities. Science could actually advance faster with the aid of mojo, forming a symbiotic relationship. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 23:13:56
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That's part of the premise of a book from Baen, called Tinker. (It's also on a Baen Free Library CD, so I can give a copy to anyone who wants to read an electronic version.) In that, Philadelphia of a few decads from now exists in Faerie for all but one day of the month, as a side effect of a device the Chinese put in orbit to transport ships to another star. The main character is a certified Science Genius Girl () who figured out ways to combine magic and normal technology.
Good book. Not Realmslore, of course, but it's an example of what you were talking about. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 23:15:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
That's part of the premise of a book from Baen, called Tinker. (It's also on a Baen Free Library CD, so I can give a copy to anyone who wants to read an electronic version.) In that, Philadelphia of a few decads from now exists in Faerie for all but one day of the month, as a side effect of a device the Chinese put in orbit to transport ships to another star. The main character is a certified Science Genius Girl () who figured out ways to combine magic and normal technology.
Good book. Not Realmslore, of course, but it's an example of what you were talking about.
I have seen that book at my nearby Barnes & Noble. Hehe, I will have to see if I can still find it. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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Jaysen Darclyght
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 01:52:48
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Bookwyrm, you said that because of the sociopolitical nature of the Realms things like the 'lightning rail' wouldn't work.
I agree, at least, as things stand now.
Faerun is in a state that seems to me to be very much like a mixture of the early Renaissance, (minus the science) and the dark ages. You have the enlightenment in regards to values and the political makeup of the realms is about as fractured as Europe in those times, maybe more when you add in magic and monsters.
So magitech like Ebberron would be cool for the realms but it can't happen yet, just like you said. But give it a few generations, and there may be enough people to just overwhelm the wilds and set the stage for a magical industrial revolution.
And as for magitech itself.. well..
Faerun already has golems, but they are expensive. What if a Lantanese engineer could make something like Da Vinci's mechanical man? That was more or less pulleys and gears. Cast a permanent animate object spell, and it can move. Now you have an automaton. Now there is no way for the realms for a long time to have these things be intelligent like droids or warforged. but you could have first generation warforged (as though their evolution did not come from weapons) as such a device with some kind of intelligence bound into a crystal or phylactery to allow the body sentient thought.
I was also reading into a Steampunk book i downloaded, and they have what they call an Analytical Machine, which is a mechanical computer that actually was designed by a guy named Babbage. Now, it can only think using punch cards, but with magic you could bypass that and give it true AI, maybe even make it small enough to fit on a ship or in a castle and it could control all of the defenses itself (but that leads to a whole new slew of problems).
But, even though our own railroads were built during a time of conflict, they survived. Just think for a moment of the cinematic power and irony you could have if you had lightning rail coaches from Waterdeep to Silverymoon, and on the way they are attacked by trolls or goblinoids. It would be like an Indian raid on a steam locomotive! Such things could cause the realms to leapfrog over Ebberron and have a kind of medieval wild west setting which could be cool, or it could take it all to hell. Hopefully it would be the former. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 02:10:17
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| Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog has machine type creations in the back of it. BUT, yes there is a BUT! One, both the 1e and 2e box sets say a lot of machines from Earth or based on Earth type of things will not work in FR because of magic. Two, the gods would restrict such things as would the clergy of said gods and so would mages. Like Khelben and smokepowder. Ed has also said repeatedly this is what the clergy does for diseases, etc, they give false info or spread info that is wrong.... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 02:14:45
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The reason why the railroad was pushed into the "Wild West" (by the way, the "cowboy" era lasted about thirty years in real life, and a fourth of them were blacks) was because it had already started in more civilized -- meaning cityfied -- areas.
In the Realms, we don't really have much of an important yet safe area for making a railroad. The Heartlands have some good spots -- especially in Cormyr -- but overall things aren't so good. I'd expect a real push for very smooth roads first, something like the asphalt roads we have today. Then cut those roads through hills -- less tiring on the horses if they don't have to go up and down. And then people will start thinking about other things. Perhaps actual railroads, but traveled by horse-drawn wagon. It requires standardization (or variable-guage axels, if you've got someone inventive), but it was used like that in our own history. Or, back on the roads, an industrial-strength Tenser's floating disk lifting the wagon, leaving the horse to only worry about forward momentum. (One would need a special fixed harness, of course, so that the wagon wouldn't bump into the horse when you stop.)
As for the statues, you can make intelligent items with only a few thousand gold. One thousand will give you the three mental ability scores (two at 12, one at 10) as well as vision and hearing and a maximum of one special power (paid for separately). Four thousand is the minimum to give speech.
These rules are normally for held items, but I don't see why they can't be used for other things. This is one way to make the level of magic rise, of course, as you normally have less than 1% of all magic items as intelligent. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 11:26:14
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Another possible scenario for technology creeping into the realms would be due to merchant enterprises. Imagine if a merchant came across a gnome who's inventions actually worked. With the right sales pitch there would be gnomish tin openers, fridges and ovens popping up all over the place. Plus the merchant would be rolling in money, eventhough he would be exploiting gnomes.
If the market is available for a product or service any businessman would be a fool to pass an opportunity to make money and gain power. For example, common people without any magical talents relying more on their own skills and technology than magic due to distrust/dislike of magic and mages. If improvements in technology came into the market then we could see things like better farming practices, new food products appearing in markets, more convenient and efficient ways of travelling large distances and transporting goods. |
“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!”
"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord |
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Technology in the Realms
