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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 04:02:48
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| I wouldn't say magic makes things simpler. Instead, it's just been around longer, developed more, and has spread farther. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Trafaldi
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 04:30:20
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| Hence the reason it is simpler |
Some believe there is something more after death, if you really want to find out... go kill yourself and stop pestering me. |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2003 : 13:54:16
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I would like to remind you Trafaldi. That Japan and other asain countries had single shot "riffles" back in the Dark Ages time. Not only did they but they seem to have found the same sort of items in other lands, such as germany, that suggest that they also had some similar device. So when you say "its more about that time". You also have to keep in mind that the gun your talking about is an Arcubus. As int he same type of "riffle" that I just noted upon. More midevil times true indeed, I just stated the "wrong" age. That is my bad, Not Dark Ages, Midevil. ... No puns on that either  |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Trafaldi
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 01:20:17
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the way the game is set up is a gun is the equivalent to a crossbow
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Some believe there is something more after death, if you really want to find out... go kill yourself and stop pestering me. |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 13:51:47
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| have you actually read about the arcubus? Its dose a D 10 on dmg. And if its a crit yes it deals X3 dmg, however it also goes up another d10 dmg, and if you roll max dmg on that said d10 once more, OH LOOK, you get to add another d10. Its half way set up like a cross bow for the inital dmg, however Im sorry to burst your bubble but a 1st level fighter with an arcubus can do up to 100 dmg in one shot. Set up like a cross bow... mmmm maybe.... Like a cross bow totally? Hell no. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Trafaldi
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2003 : 15:07:46
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| I never said that it is the total equal i said they are the equivalent, and no i have not looked up on the subject entirely i dont have my books in my dorm. i may sound like an idiot but DON'T insult my intelligence. all i am tryign to say is that there is the technology out there and that it has many equals and some are better in some way. |
Some believe there is something more after death, if you really want to find out... go kill yourself and stop pestering me. |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2003 : 14:24:19
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I was never attacking your int. All I was doing was pointing out that it might be set up kind of like a cross bow, but its indeed is -nothing- like a cross bow. Im sorry if you feel that you have to protect your int. Which, I was never attacking anyway so get over it.
Today im *rolls dice and drops* not happy to know you. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Trafaldi
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2003 : 17:19:28
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then i apologize for my outburst and mean you good will. thye do need to come up with a better system because there is a big reason armor-
if some one is shot in the chest with a gun they should have a bigger penalty than a crossbow because one you have more accuracy and two you arent shooting a pointed object you are shooting a ball and if they are wearing strong enough armor it shouldnt go through think of it as kevlar it can stop bullet from a .38 mag but a .22 round can get through because it is smaller. So in all actuallity a crossbow would be better becaus eof accuracy and size of projectile's tip.
and a again i apologize again from my outburst i meant nothing by it bad day at classes. |
Some believe there is something more after death, if you really want to find out... go kill yourself and stop pestering me. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2003 : 18:15:07
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Sorry to have to join this argument, but that's not true . . . .
The crossbow is more accurate than the arquebus, yes. Heck, I could probably hit a target with a baseball with about the same accuracy, and I'm not known for my arm. The arquebus didn't have sights or even a trigger. You had to just point it in the general direction, yank the cord, close your eyes so that you don't go blind from the stray, and very hot, powder, and basically hope that you hit. In fact, even when used against a massed target (like the formation known as the tercio, I think it was called) you counted yourself lucky if you actually hit anything at all.
However, I have to disagree on the amount of damage. Even the arquebus, one of the most primitive of gunpower weapons, the shot would be expelled with force greater than any one-man, muscle-drawn crossbow could match. Wasn't much compared to what it's like today, what with inovations like rifling, finer powder, and machined bullets. But it was better than a crossbow -- otherwise, why not use the crossbow? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2003 : 14:05:59
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| Well book. To let you know, the system for the ar, is held within the second ed book. Not the third. Third went right to lazer pistols and crap like that that dose like 12D12's of dmg. The ar, yes, is harder to hit things with, it takes three full turns to reload, its very hard to shoot, and yes, the dmg system dose really do that amount of dmg. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Jaysen Darclyght
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2003 : 18:44:39
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I have said this in the discussion on the Church of Gond and the Threats to Faerun, but i must say it again. I regularly attend meetings for TA (Techoholics anonymous)  I always try to be the person whose mind is oriented on things not arcane.
It has been said here that magic is simpler than technology. This is true, though only in FR. In the real world, its the other way around, in the perfect world, both would be equally complex and intriguing.
Powder weapons are more powerful than crossbows or anything created out of a realistic medieval world. Someone said that eventually Faerun would become a world of rapiers if guns became prevalent. Is this true?
In the Apocalypse series for Magic the Gathering (Forgive the crosssubject leap), the airship, the Weatherlight is equipped with Phyrexian Mana Cannons. From the descriptions provided in the book, they sound quite like AAA from modern wars. Though instead of flak, they shoot bolts of mana.
Why do guns have to become the mainstay weapons? Magic armor specially made to be good against firearms would appear eventually, forcing a return to melee and other forms of combat. In the Dune series Frank Herbert has everyone fighting with swords, even though it is 10000 years into the future. His advent of the forcefield made Lazguns dangerous, and forced a return to more primitive weapons to kill people.
What about steam engines eh? Friends have said that they are revolutions in 99.9% of my life, but thats beside the point. Archimedes made a steam engine. It was more of a toy, but who knows what could have come.
Though it may be blasphemy, the slow introdution of a transition to a more industrial society in the Realms might be quite entertaining and it may become a vital part in the evolution of FR.
Now, I need to go grease my mana cannons, fill the boiler in my steam engine, sharpen my rapier, and, stop talking. |
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2003 : 12:24:38
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No I don't want tech in fearun. What will be next inventing panzers and building nuclear powerplants. Magic is enough.
I don't want my safe haven become similar to the real world. |
Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
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Jaysen Darclyght
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2003 : 16:03:38
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Whats wrong with panzers? I mean, I know that an M-1 would destroy it, but tanks are our friends.
Ever heard of a monster that I am 99% sure is called a Juggernaut, its in the Monster Manual 2. All it is, is a magically animated block of stone that wanders around and crushes things. Take off the stone, leave animated treads, much like the dwarven tunnelers, and strap a heavy ballista on board. What do you have? A magical tank.
See, they are our friends.
And nuclear power plants are always fun. With their exhaust chimneys and extremely volatile interiors. They are definitively fun in a concrete box. But if you use magic to power things, who needs nuclear power? It would be nice to be able to drop nukes on invading armies of demons, but hey, thats my opinion.
Forgive me if my sarcasm insults you. If it does, feel free to jab back at me. Just don't try to verbally murder me. Thats not nice. |
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2003 : 21:41:43
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You are an absolute american Jaysen, you like nukes don't you and those nuclear power plants are not funny, they are dangereous. I don't think victims of Chernobil(if I spelled right) were not laughing after the explosion nor the incredible numbers of people affected by radiation because of accidents in those wicked places.
But I wasnot talking about how lethal is technology or spellcraft is
My simple opinion on this issue is if there is tech in realms where the part of fantasy is. I simply prefer a fireball instead of a bozooka.
Nevertheless as you said that creature was magical you cannot manufacture thousands of it to invade countries.
But I m not talking about piece, I m talking about the spirit. I don't want technology spoil that spirit. There are other campaign setting that you can use light sabres but this is Toril and do anything you want either mundane ways or magical, I don't care but I don't want the adventerers become unhappy factory workers on strike or marveolus hackers
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Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2003 : 05:27:39
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| I agree. This has nothing to do with whether technology is good or bad. It has everything to do with what fits the flavor you're looking for. If I were suddenly transported to Faerun, I'd be wanting to raise the technology level a bit. It wouldn't be as necessary, since magic fills many of the niches that would otherwise be gaping wide. But I'm not in Faerun. I'm outside, enjoying the story. And this story should really stick to a lower tech level. Certainly pre-gunpowder. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Jaysen Darclyght
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 12:48:21
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Your right. I am a red blooded American. And guess what? I'm proud to be a warmongering techiefreak SOB. Forgive me those who don't appreciate my vulgarity, it won't happen again. I too enjoy a fireball. But when my level 20 Sorcerer friend is casting meteor swarm and looses it to a failed concentration check against a very powerful enemy, I get annoyed. That is why technology should be in the realms to supplement the magic. Golems are cool right? Most constructs are. Golems are very ponderous, much like many scifi mechs. Strap ballistae to its arms, hollow out it back, and whaddya know, a magical mech. See, technology doesn't have to replace the magic in the realms, it can supplement it, support it, and a new era of fantasy scifi can arise!
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 18:34:29
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Nothing new about it. Go pick up Harry Turtledove's World At War quartet. It's WWII in a magical world, with everything reversed. The analogue for the Jews have blonde hair and blue eyes. The analogue for the Americans are olive-skinned, dark-haired, and have epicanthic eyefolds. No guns, tanks, bombers, fighters, or nukes. Instead, soldiers fight with magical weapons that shoot beams of light like a laser. They mount bigger versions on creatures that are the size of rhinos. They drop "eggs" from dragons. And nukes . . . well, let's just say it's a really powerful spell.
It's an interesting world, but not for those with short attention spanns. He really drags this out into a war of attrition. I got bored, myself. Might go back to it someday, though.
There's another serise I've heard of that uses an alternate Europe where soldiers have invisibility spells to blend into the background, have magical "radio," and other things like that. Don't know the name of it, but I'd like to try that one out.
In my own series, I have a new crystal that can store magical energy like a battery. It allows a wireless telegraph, for instance; it can only communicate between matched pairs of crystals, but is resistant to "jamming" and if it falls into the wrong hands, the enemy can't listen in.
I'll have other things, like a magical analogue of guns; or a magic-propelled tank or other armored vehicle. Griffins will rule in the sky as they drop grenades and battle each other with tooth, claw, and the repeating, spell-enhanced crossbows of their riders.
There's nothing wrong with it, as I've said time and again. It's all on what flavor you want. In the Realms, the favor doesn't have much room for what we call high technology. (Which is really just an American buzzword from the sixties. There's no definition for it.)
What people need to remember is that other people like other things. Just because you don't doesn't mean it isn't good!  I'm not pointing fingers, just pointing out that one can't really tell someone else what to enjoy.
And, just as an aside, the rapier had nothing to do with gunpowder. I did research on this for my fencing character, and I found that the rapier -- better known in those times as the "duelling sword" -- was caused by the rise of the middle class. Before, disputes were settled by lords and nobles; when people who weren't tied to the same lord, they needed an alternate method of settling things.
Impromptu duels were what came out of that. But, since one didn't want to carry around a lot of weight all day, armor usually wasn't worn in the city. Because of that, swords didn't need to be as heavy, and the reduced weight meant you could carry it around with you. It was primarily a weapon for stabbing, not slashing (whatever you see in the movies) and later on (when these things became more formalized) became only sharpened at the tip. A gentleman, after all, only fights to the first blood.
The rapier used in D&D looks more like a cutlass, if you look at the picture in the PHB. That's more in keeping with the setting; a lot of people have armor in D&D. The rapier wielded by the Duelist in S&F is more akin to a later age. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Bayne
Seeker
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 20:47:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Jander Sunstar
You are an absolute american Jaysen, you like nukes don't you and those nuclear power plants are not funny, they are dangereous.
I don't like how some people outside of the USA think that Americans are all the same. We aren't all stupid, nor are all of us violent, and I take offense each time someone makes that assumption, because I personally do not like being grouped into a category, as I am a human being and an individual.
Anyhow, I agree with the opinion that the technology in the realms is good at where it's at, or should even be reduced. |
Nindyn vel'uss kyorl nind ratha thalra elyhinn dal lil alust |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 20:58:07
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| Ok, modern day weapons in the FR would absolutly suck!!! Its a FANTACY world, y would u want modern stuff when that is what we have here??? Thats what makes the FR sooo great. And bottom line, people from the FR could take any modern day army man. |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Bayne
Seeker
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 22:48:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracandos the Spellsage
Ok, modern day weapons in the FR would absolutly suck!!! Its a FANTACY world, y would u want modern stuff when that is what we have here??? Thats what makes the FR sooo great. And bottom line, people from the FR could take any modern day army man.
I doubt that...I seriously do...Nukes would take care of Faerun, then there's strifing jets, grenadiers, foot soldiers with machine guns...I truly think that if there were a battle to occur between fr and this world, fr would have no chance...and that is sad indeed. |
Nindyn vel'uss kyorl nind ratha thalra elyhinn dal lil alust |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2003 : 05:20:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Bayne
[quote][i]I doubt that...I seriously do...Nukes would take care of Faerun, then there's strifing jets, grenadiers, foot soldiers with machine guns...I truly think that if there were a battle to occur between fr and this world, fr would have no chance...and that is sad indeed.
lol this always drives me nuts...Ok people always say that with all the guns we have, FR wouldnt have a chance. All u need is 1 person with an item of reflection, n guess what, all those bullets will shoot right back n kill whoever shot that bullet. BOOM! lots of dead people killed by their own guns, gunfire is the main way of fighting here so without that, they would really have no other main offense. |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2003 : 17:10:43
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| Actually, with the way the archmages are attempting to control smokepowder, I figure the technological advance of Faerun is pretty much stagnant. Not a good or bad thing but simply how you see it. Still, I wouldn't mind seeing a few steam based items or, even the smokepowder weapons is not too far of a stones throw for me, in faerun. Technology isn't the enigne of destruction many make it out to be. Neccesity is the mother of invention and War the Father, as an altered saying goes. As long as Faerun don't make a jump to modern times then there really isn't a problem yet. But Know this, the advancement of a world cannot behalted without the workings of great atrocity.... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Jaysen Darclyght
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2003 : 19:26:22
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Great atrocity eh?
Seems to me that the authors of the FR books keep getting closer and closer to such an event. I mean, Time of troubles anyone?
What happens if that happens again, for a long time? The mother and father of invention will be cranking out kids I think, as one nation blames another nation or their god, etc, and whaddya know, Toril wide chaos.
Sounds like my idea of a five star resort. |
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Nocturno
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2003 : 21:24:01
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In a world were magic takes place of tech there is no need for further improvement in tech that is one for logic no one powerful allows lesser people gain power usin tech.
Nevertheless I would never play in a technical advanced realms because of the fact that I love the myth and metaphysical incidents and powers as many are.
I love tech thus I play whitewolf and even star wars but I love realms and kryn because of a simple primal instinct to wield sword and belief of superstision of magic. I would like to live in a world like that one but I only imagine so its purity is priceless for me |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2003 : 20:24:44
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OK some of the older Sages will recognize this post from a previous discussion on Firearms:
I have a rating system in my campaigns, often behind the scenes that players are not necessarily aware of, it is just for my personal reference. I have a Magic Rating and a TECH rating. Worlds with very low tech ratings can not get past simple machines or medieval technology. I call the tech rating 3 for Forgotten Realms (my own use of course) This means that Firearms can never happen, because technology just will not work. The forgotten realms MAGIC level is a 10, becasue just about everything is possible. Another example is a star wars campaign I am trying to get off the ground. STAR WARS I consider to have a tech rating of 10 and a MAGIC rating of about 7 (the force). The ratings are more or less arbitrary and just a personal reference for me.
I also had a character one time Captain Goldblade that I kind of have an incarnation in EVERY campaign I run. He has a HUGE spaceship, with two drives... Tech drives (in any high tech rating world, it works as you would imagine, a regular spaceship) and then MAGIC DRIVES, A cluster of Staff of the Magi and other artifacts that acts as the ship engine in MAGIC strong worlds. Essentially the magic then provides all the power for his ship.
Though I do not have time to run the number of games I want, there is ONE game I have been DYING to do! I wanted to run a D20 Modern Age in the 21st century equivalent of the Forgotten Realms. It would be an alternate future world, where magic decreased and technology increased. The year would be about 2200 DR. SOme ideas I had were:
Waterdeep is THE Superpower, encompasing ALL of the North and Western Heartlands (including... the Candlekeep University). Cormyr is a CLOSE second in Power. Vaasa and Damara are united into another Superpower opposing Waterdeep, and SHOU LUNG is on the level of power of Cormyr. Modern Thay is to REAL THAY what Modern Egypt is to Ancient Egypt. ANd of course there would be more things like that.
I have been dying to do this for a long time. But I have no idea when I would get time.
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With all that said, I do allow some anachronistic technology in my realms. Clocks I allow (clockwork type), as well as Very advanced Warships (without the cannon). Sailing technology is on a level of about the period of the American Revolution (1792). I am far too into the Spanish Main to have a low sailing level. Too me forgotten realms is a world where magic is strong and technology is not. Possibly a mirror of our world, Technology is readily available but the masses do not necessarily understand it. in Faerun Magic is readily availsble but the masses do not understand it. We can get into an interesting debate about health care. Should the priests provide their healing for free? Or should only the rich benefit from healing? If you prefer a more American System, than only the rich should get healing, becasue health care would be a privelidge (Like it is in the UNited States) and not a right (like it is in Europe). Don't know why I went off on that tangent.
In my realms If I want a plague storyline it is not like the Black Plague which any good Cleric would wipe out. instead it is more like a magically engineered plague (I loved that NWN did THAT!) One of my players was arguing about a migical plague I set up, and then what gets released: NWN!!!)
Don't know why I went on that tangent either. Now I know why my students ask so many irrelevant questions... They know I go on Tangents.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2003 : 22:25:48
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Before we start, anyone that dubs the Realms as in the Dark Ages needs to look in a history book. THe Dark Ages, or more accurately the Early Middle Ages, begin with the Fall of the Roman Empire and end when stable nations begin to form (stable being a relative term of course) and people begin to communicate again. It's about 500 A.D. to 1000 A.D., and the Middle Ages do not end until about 1500 A.D., after the Crusades end. The Dark Ages are a period where communication between groups of people is all but non-existant and cities do not really exist in Europe. Technology is at a low point, as in people are largely employing iron and bronze. In general the Realms are Late Middle Ages, probably comparable to Post-Crusades Europe, just prior to the Renaissance.
Honestly, look at technology in the Realms. Production of iron for tools and weapons is all but unheard of in most areas, as the majority of equipment is produced out of steel, or even better materials (adamanite and mithral). The printing press exists, even though it is in limited quantities, it allows for the fast and economic production of books. Large urban areas, i.e. Silverymoon and Waterdeep, have incredibly high level of literacy. Crossbows, longbows, full plate, and seige weapons are also in common use, many of which were not at all common, or existant, during the Dark Ages. There are steam engines and waterclocks in use by several nations (several of which developed these implements independant of the Church of Gond or Gnomes). Politcally strong, unified nations are taking the place of independant city-states and promoting trade and interocnnectivity, as opposed to warfare and conquest.
Of course, it has taken the Realms a long time to get to this point. It took the Realm about ten thousand years to go from the Bronze Age to the Late Middle Ages, a trip which Earth took in about four thousand years, give or take. Honestly, because of the high magic availibility in the realm, technological advancement will always be incredibly slow in the Realms. Magic is easier to access and learn, and is heavily promoted by the Clergy of Mystra and the Goddess fo Magic who has been a fixtutre of the Realms far longer than Gond or any other technologically focused deities. Add to that the Realms have been widely chaotic through out most of it's history, and that prior to Netheril the only major civilizations were non-human, technology has lacked the ideal condition to develop. The two most technologically advanced civilizations in the Realms were probably Shou Lung and Mulhorand, and Mulhorand wnet through a Dark Ages style technological devolution, as it were.
Now, while the Realms probably will not be advancing far any time soon, realistically they are not far from a Renaissance period. With the increase in stable nations, the key element for a golden age of technology is not far away: peace. Historically long period of peace are the time when technology beginss to grow. With strong nations growing, opposing nations will be less inclined to go to war wiith one another simply because it would be far to costly to be desirable. Wars would become massive, expensive, bloody affairs, that would likely achieve very little. We have seen it recently in the Realms with the Shade business, no one came out on top, even the Shade Enclave. Cormyr, Sembia, Waterdeep, Evereska, and Shade all lost huge numbers of forces; Cormyr, Waterdeep, and Evereska all took a great deal of internal damage, and Shade lost many of it's chief wizards (I believe roughly eight or nine of the Shadow Princes were killed, maybe more). Granted, the Phaerimm kind of messed up everyone's plan, but the interference of non-unified, outside groups are not uncommon.
In any case, I personally would not mind some technological developments, but I agree the realms should not become a place of Colt M4A1 +2's and Masterwork F16s. It is a fantasy setting were the general theme should be swords and sorcery, but I see no harm in having non-magical gunpowder, it's not like it's easy to get. You sya anyone could go to their local alchemist to and get some made up, well sure, if that alchemist has the formulae, cna make it without blowing himself up, and you can pony up the obscene amount of cash needed to pay for it, sure it's easy, if that's easy. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2003 : 23:35:36
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I believe I've probably said this before, but hey, Mournblade repeated himself.  I hate the idea of arbitrary technology-can't-work "natural" laws. Unless you have some reason why it doesn't work (e.g., the gods get together and rule that Gond did wrong by introducing smokepowder, and so Gond is forced to make sure it isn't ever used again), then using physical laws to explain it just traps you.
Allow me to make an example of an otherwise wonderful series, called The Wizard in Rhyme. It describes an alternate Earth where things like chemicals don't work. Period. The hero (a guy from this Earth) tries to light a match, but it doesn't work until he uses a rhyme (magic). Latter, it is mentioned that telescopes don't work either; magic has to be used to do the same job.
For those who haven't gotten it already, I'll explain. If a matchhead (basically like gunpowder, though not quite) can't light, then the laws of thermodynamics are different to such a degree that any fire couldn't light. And if a telescope doesn't work, if light doesn't bend when it hits an angled surface, then how do people see? Our eyes work on the exact same principle. It's how we're able to see things larger than the diameter of our pupils.
Those are just two examples from that story. I could quote others, but it would be unnecessary. (I know, me refraining from quoting non-FR sources. Alaundo's going to delare a holiday or something.)
Suffice to say that while I think that gunpowder shouldn't be in the Realms, it also shouldn't be forbidden by laws of physics. In that story of my own creation that I mentioned above, every bit of technology is allowed, except complicated, unshielded electronics. Magic is energy, and if the electronics aren't properly shielded, it's like a low-level but constant EMP effect. Otherwise, everything goes.
The only reason why the good guys, helped along by the people from Earth, aren't using gunpowder weapons (which is known; it's barely at the 1600s level, though) is because it's too expensive for the infrastructure that exists to equip the military with enough in time for the war. If it weren't for magic, they'd be doing it anyway, but there is an infrastructure for creating magical weapons.
I far prefer such a universe, where technology (as we know it) hasn't progressed because magic is used. It's slower, but it's the only path they know about. And it doesn't actually have to be as slow as the pace in the Realms would have you think. There you've got disasters, invasions, and multiple intelligent species competing with each other. I'm sure that if it were just humans, like in the real world, things would have progressed a bit quicker. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 01:25:42
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Very well said Edain! Very well indeed!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 01:49:11
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Really, technological retardation because of magic is the only truely logical explaination. Beacause finding a wizard is a lot easier than creating new technology, most do not bother to create new technology, that's why it has taken the Realms more than twice the time to progress from primative metals to steel. In general, for the world to scientifically similar to Earth, you cannot arbitrarily alter the laws of physics, and it does not pay to either. I try not to be overly logical when playing fantasy, but I need some foundation in reality, most people do. So, that is in agreement with Bookwyrm.
One thing that is kinda hard to explain is how a high magic world like Faerun has not imported high-technology from more advanced worlds, whcih might be why the other (formerly) accredited worlds were lower technology as well. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2003 : 17:15:33
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| The Realms is a swords & sorcery secondary world, it wasn't worldbuilt scientifically. It works according to the laws of story, not of physics or history. There's absolutely no assumption that the Realms works as our world does/did unless stated otherwise. That's naive: we may picture it similar to a physical place, but it exists in the imagination. The Realms is a kaboodle of Middle Ages and Renaissance and other centuries before and after not because it's logical, but because Ed wanted it that way. It won't advance in technology, because that would be sim-history, not swords & sorcery. You can find logical explanations for this, but they're post hoc and quite beside the point. |
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Technology in the Realms
