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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 10:30:35
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This is not Realms specific, and I have checked out the Save My Game Articles on the WotC Site, but I still need some advice or at least a objective perspective.
What do you do if one of your players doesn't trust you? Is convinced you have the rules wrong? Thinks you are allowing another player to cheat either by incompetance or favoritism? How do you get them to belive you are being fair when they believe you are being arbitary when you use the rules as written? I think I am being fair over the balance of the campaign and it seems only by biasing the game towards this player will they believe I am not biased! It appears to be getting worse and real paranoia has set in with finger pointing at other players who dare to e-mail or phone me to talk about their characters and get rules clarifications.
I really need some help.
And no I can't and won't get rid of this player, so I need a workable solution for dealing with.
So wise Sages what shoud I do?
Any advice?
Please.
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Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 11:51:47
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I think the main thing Wrigs 13 is to talk to the player involved. Ask him/her what their problems are, where they think you have interpreted the rules incorectly, why they think you have interpreted the rules incorectly. Do they have personal issues with any of the other players? Do they have problems outside the game that they are bringing to the table?
That's really all I can sugest. Oh, and when I say talk, I mean talk privately. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 12:37:24
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there is two rules that a player should always remember
#1- The DM is always right
#2- If the DM is wrong, read rule #1 again
That's all I can say, I'm not a rule-god, far from it, but if a pc asks me for a rule, my answer will be the the way I think it should be (in my very humble opinion). I may look like a tyrant now (praise Bane) but it never happened that a player was mad about my way of playing.
Isn't it the second or third time that you complain about your players Wrig13? Maybe you should consider flushing some of them, it's your call. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 13:33:56
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The best advice I can suggest is talk to the player, then talk to all the players. If you're doing your best and you believe you are treating everyone fairly then it's good to check what the others think too.
If the player feels his or her character isn't getting on, maybe it's a situation the whole group can role-play. It could be a campaign issue whereby currently the plot favours certain classes.
However, in this case, I think the best thing to do is talk to all concerned. A good, clear-the-air talk helps. And I agree with you that asking the player to leave won't help because eventually you'll face this sort of issue again.
Finally, with regards to the rules, they change the minute you start using them.
I hope it all sorts itself out OK. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 14:00:30
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-Give them a taste of their own medicine. Let them DM and be a total *** about everything.   Or you could go with the folding steel chair upside the head technique.   I cannot stand that type of attitude from a player.   I hope this helps. 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 14:07:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Isn't it the second or third time that you complain about your players Wrig13? Maybe you should consider flushing some of them, it's your call.
Well yeah second time I suppose and not complain so much as technical roleplay interaction issues Oh and is the same player
I don't think I have any persoanl issues with this or any other players, and I first started DMing when I bought an Old Grey Box many years ago, and this is the first time I have had this issue.
Cheers everyone for the advice, I will try once again to 'talk' to my player.
You know how roleplayers love that touchy feely stuff
Any other suggestions welcome. |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 14:18:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
And no I can't and won't get rid of this player, so I need a workable solution for dealing with.
Too bad, because in my opinion that'd be the quickest and most efficient way to solve your problem. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 14:29:45
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Sometimes you have to bite the bullet. You'll probably going to wind up spending more one on one time with this player than the others. Remember that, no matter what, you are all there to have fun. If he isn't having fun with the game as it's being run, bring it up in your talk with him.
Another side note, this from personal experience. Don't do the rules discussion in the game. If he has a problem with a certain rule and how you handled it, make note of it and tell him you can discuss it at the next break, at the end of the session or some other time during the down-time from the game. You won't be able to go back and ret-con if you're in the wrong, but he'll be happy that you're willing to work with him on it and you'll learn a little something more. And if you're in the right, then he learns a bit and feels better about the situation. Either way, by doing this during downtime it minimizes the hard feelings that may occur when you're just trying to get through the story. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 15:31:02
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We had that problem in our group once. There were two players who did not trust the DM, because they thought he applied the rules too capriciously. It's true that he liked to allow himself the freedom to tell a good story, and didn't always stay within the strict letter of the rules. I trusted that "telling a good story" wouldn't include killing me off, but I had a good relationship with him. One of the untrusting players had a character killed under what he thought was a questionable interpretation of the rules, though, and he spread the distrust to another player, who was his roommate. Eventually, they both left the group.
I think the main problem was that the only communication they had was DM to player. There was no alternate path on which they could talk. The players only heard him as an authority figure delivering pronouncements, and he only heard them as disaffected whiners. So my suggestion, if you really can't ditch this person, is to try to establish a relationship with him outside the game, and use that relationship to discuss the problem from a more neutral point of view, not as his DM but as a friend.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 15:41:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Give them a taste of their own medicine. Let them DM and be a total *** about everything. Or you could go with the folding steel chair upside the head technique. I cannot stand that type of attitude from a player. I hope this helps.
BRIMSTONE
I love your simplistic view of the world, it would be great to lay a smackdown on him with a folding ladder Oh for simpler times... |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 16:00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
I think the main problem was that the only communication they had was DM to player. There was no alternate path on which they could talk. The players only heard him as an authority figure delivering pronouncements, and he only heard them as disaffected whiners. So my suggestion, if you really can't ditch this person, is to try to establish a relationship with him outside the game, and use that relationship to discuss the problem from a more neutral point of view, not as his DM but as a friend.
That sounds like great advice. And says much more clearly what I was struggling to say. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 19:44:57
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really depends on what kinda rules thats the problem
if its noncritical rules which doesn't have a severe impact on how the game runs (ie. its not those purely technical "how to combat" rules) they're free to be winged and tweaked to GM's content
at least in the groups i've been its a good thing if you have at least one other than the GM which knows the rules inside out, preferly not GM's bunkmate (ie. roommate, family, decade old friend, lover etc) ... and then have a ironclad houserule, that unless its critical rules talk are to be held down till next convinient break ... at the moment i'm serving for my two GM's as the rulenerd, and there's yet to be an issue of any kind which we can't wing or get a clear understanding of |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 21:14:53
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There are various rules issues from how weapons work to how skills function, but the main one appears to be the fact that one of the other players is playing a race with a level adjust. For some reason he has become convinced that I have misunderstood how level adjusts work or that I am simply letting the other player cheat. No matter how many times level adjust races have been discussed he always leaves believing something dodgy is going on. If anything I have imposed harsher rules, like those associated with the savage species book, and the powers granted by the race have been given out proportionatly with level advancement, rather than all at level 1.
I will however take your advice and create an official 'rulesnerd' who I can then blame for how the rules are written.  |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 22:39:27
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My personal guidelines for DMing:
1. Remember and remind players of Rule 0
2. If you are making something up on the spot, its your right (especially if it helps speed play along and you can't find the rule you need).
3. If a player wants to challenge a specific ruling, be open to it. If the issue can be resolved quickly and it wouldn't hurt to compromise, don't be afraid to admit you were wrong and why.
4. If its too much of a problem to resolve quickly, suspend debate until play ends and make a decision for the duration. That ruling stands as you make it, move on with the game. The next day, take the time to consult with people online or other gamers outside your circle to get an unbiased perspective. If you think your decision should stand, stick to it and explain why.
5. If you come to agree with the player who challenged your ruling, see if you can resolve the difference between your original ruling and the way things are supposed to be. Sometimes this is easy and it doesn't hurt to retcon the decision... if the point of contention makes too big of a deal to just reverse it (say a pivotal ruling caused someone's death), then use the time before your next session to come up with an alternative explanation for why what happened happened in spite of the rules working against it (maybe an unknown factor gets revealed to be the cause of whatever the problem was), but explain that this is a special circumstance and from now on you'll be using the correct ruling in the same situations (unless you want to house rule the different ruling as the new rule covering that situation). If a player character died as a result of the ruling made, I would most likely grant some sort of boon to the character at another time to make up for the issue... call it a blessing of the gods or what have you.
6. If you're going to permanently house rule something after such a disagreement, discuss it with everyone and make sure they're okay with it too. If they're not okay, be open to suggestions and be willing to compromise.
Not every good DM is 100% on the rules... and I daresay not every DM who is 100% clear on the rules is a good DM. If your players don't trust you DMing, I don't know what to say after that except take Brimstone's advice and let them DM for a change and be sure to give them equal hassle. I'd reserve that as a last ditch effort, though. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 23:03:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
And no I can't and won't get rid of this player, so I need a workable solution for dealing with.
Too bad, because in my opinion that'd be the quickest and most efficient way to solve your problem.
Thing is, most of us play DnD with our friends. It's all well and good to be able to get mad at your friends and stay friends (my best friend is the most mercurial young woman alive), but doing something like kicking them out of the game is a little over the line. If this guy were just an acquaintance, a friend of another player, it would be less of an issue. Then, however, you chance sparking problems among multiple people, which can get out of hand and ruin the group.
I'm a fan of the "dropping the hammer" approach, wherein I'm absolutely objective for a couple of sessions. Generally, if the players play their characters really well and have a vested interest in the game, I tend to pull punches. Not severely; there's always the danger of character death or what have you, but I like my players and their PCs. When we get into accusations of favoritism, though, I'm a complete jerk for a couple of sessions. People die.
So, Wriggy, I agree with the not-kicking-him-out finality. Be mean for a couple of games, show him and the other players that there's no favoritism to be had. Hopefully they'll warm back up and you won't have to do it for the rest of the campaign.
All the best.
...and realizing I've referred to the player as a 'he' this whole time, even though you never made the gender clear. Sexist much, Wolfie? |
Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 23:31:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Give them a taste of their own medicine. Let them DM and be a total *** about everything. Or you could go with the folding steel chair upside the head technique. I cannot stand that type of attitude from a player. I hope this helps.
BRIMSTONE
I love your simplistic view of the world, it would be great to lay a smackdown on him with a folding ladder Oh for simpler times...
-You know my post was in jest.  There are times I would love to lay the smack down on ***hat players. I posted Tomfoolery because you gat a lot of great advice from the other scribes...so I got to post the silly post!  Just talk to them, or kick him in the kneecap. 
BRIMSTONE
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 09:25:18
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So do I talk then kick? or kick then talk?
Maybe I should take a vote on this.
Only joking I promise to talk first, I will save the kicking for later.
On a serious note thanks everyone for the advice. |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 16:23:43
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| Kicking a friend out of the group is not fun. I still feel bad about the last player we had to remove, even though he wasn't a particularly close friend. I used to see him at social gatherings before we kicked him out, but I haven't seen him since. I know he must think I hate him, but I don't. I just couldn't game with him anymore. :( |
--
Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 18:05:36
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THIS -
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
It appears to be getting worse and real paranoia has set in with finger pointing at other players who dare to e-mail or phone me to talk about their characters and get rules clarifications.
Scares me.
The player is taking game-issues out of the game.
I realize you've already stated you WON'T take the player out of your game, but did you ever think that this might be the best thing for everyone involved?
I've seen game-grudges get taken off the table, and even spill into other games (being played by the same group) get affected. Hell, I saw a guy go balls-to-the-wall 'Blitzkrieg-mode' in RISK against a certain player, because the day before, the other guy won the 'die toss' to get a magical ring out from a chest.
When you have a player that can't seperate his/her personal feelings from that of his/her character, then you have a loose canon on your hands.
One that could 'go off' in a VERY bad way sooner or later. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 18:18:47
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| Geee, what kind of friends do you guys have? Seriously, anger management SHOULD NOT be an issue when playing a GAME with FRIENDS. It scares me too. |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 19:05:34
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| Well sometimes people have friends that take things a little too seriously. It's just a particular kind of personality type where someone is extremely competetive and feels wronged if they don't "win." I hope for Wrigs's sake that he doesn't have this kind of player at his table. And it's still possible to be friends with that kind of person, it can just be hard to play with them knowing that they will take it personally every time they think you "beat" them. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 19:47:20
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In our case, the guy wasn't angry or over-competitive, he just couldn't keep his mouth shut for five minutes at a time. If he couldn't think of anything else to blather about he would recite portions from Andrew Dice Clay's stand up routine. I don't know how many times I had to listen to "Little Miss Muffet sat on a tuffet..." etc, etc, add nausea. The DM was constantly having to tell him to shut up. I put up with it for several years, but when he and another player got into a tiff, and the other player was going to stop gaming with us, I told the DM I couldn't take it any longer. If it was one or the other, I wanted the one who wasn't going to drive me nuts.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 20:12:34
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Wow I am so glad my player only think I am lying, cheating and playing favourites, as some of you guys play with real nutters
Just in case anyone is interested the rules arguements that have occured have not been arbitary decisions on vague rule mechanics. They are pretty simple things such as the DC for using skills, the size of weapons, etc. |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 20:13:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
What's the level adjust and the level of the characters?
3rd level characters with a +1 LA, so 2nd +1 to make them equal.
Should this be a big issue? |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 20:41:46
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| tell him that raping flies is against animal laws |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 20:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
tell him that raping flies is against animal laws
So you have met him |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 23:57:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
What's the level adjust and the level of the characters?
3rd level characters with a +1 LA, so 2nd +1 to make them equal.
Should this be a big issue?
Not at all. I was afraid that it might be something worse, like a group of 3rd level characters and the LA was +5 or worse. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 01:18:08
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quote:
Originally posted by GoCeraf
Thing is, most of us play DnD with our friends.
I'm aware of that (I play the game with my friends, too), but the person described in the OP doesn't sound to me like much of a friend:
quote:
It appears to be getting worse and real paranoia has set in with finger pointing at other players who dare to e-mail or phone me to talk about their characters and get rules clarifications.
As always, though, that's just how I see it--if the OP still considers this person a friend, that's up to him.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Feb 2009 01:36:15 |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 09:18:34
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| Just because someone is a friend it doesn't mean they are good to roleplay with |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 15:36:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Just because someone is a friend it doesn't mean they are good to roleplay with
*shrug* I still think that's a pretty weird way for a "friend" to act. I believe a real friend could be straight with people they consider friends rather than being paranoid, pointing fingers, etc.
Again, that's just my take on this--I'm explaining what makes me think this person doesn't sound like much of an actual friend. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Feb 2009 15:40:15 |
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Trust me I'm a DM, honest.
