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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 15:43:28
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If you have a friend accusing you of lying, then he doesn't trust you, and without trust, there is no friendship.
What you have there is a person you know that you have fun hanging out with occassionally - nothing more.
Ask yourself - if you were stuck 50 miles from home in a Blizzard, and your car broke down, would that guy come and pick you up at 3:00 in the morning?
A friend would.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Feb 2009 15:43:56 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 15:46:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If you have a friend accusing you of lying, then he doesn't trust you, and without trust, there is no friendship.
What you have there is a person you know that you have fun hanging out with occassionally - nothing more.
Yes, that's more of less what I was getting at, only put more bluntly. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 15:47:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Just because someone is a friend it doesn't mean they are good to roleplay with 
*shrug* I still think that's a pretty weird way for a "friend" to act.
I agree with you 100%. A real friend would not treat you in such a way over a game (or over anything else for that matter). Pointing fingers, accusing of cheating, no way I would accept such a behaviour around my table, "friend" or not. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 16:11:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yes, that's more of less what I was getting at, only put more bluntly.
I was going to say "Blunt is my middle name", but considering the current slang useage for that term, I think my kids* would look at me funny. 
Edit: And by 'kids', I mean 21 and 18 year olds. The younger ones wouldn't 'get the joke'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Feb 2009 16:12:45 |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 17:07:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ask yourself - if you were stuck 50 miles from home in a Blizzard, and your car broke down, would that guy come and pick you up at 3:00 in the morning?
A friend would.
A real friend wouldn't drag you out in a blizzard at 3am when he could just dial 911 and get professional help. 
There's often two ways of looking at those situations. It's very possible that the guy (girl?) thinks that Wrigs is the one not being a good friend. Not that he's right, but he has his own point of view and we're just seeing it from one side. If Wrigs says that he's a good friend, I don't see any contradiction. It's not unusual for friends to have disputes over petty stuff, and games often bring out the worst in people. The big question is how to work through the dispute without destroying the friendship. As long as that's what Wrigs wants to do, I wouldn't encourage him to ditch the friend. I still say that communication, friend-to-friend rather than DM-to-player, is the key. Maybe in the end the solution will be that they can't game together, but it's possible they could get to that point in a way that would preserve the friendship.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 17:26:35
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If you dialed 911 because your car broke down, you would be breaking the law and receive a summons for mis-using the system.
That's the truth.
I was stuck, in a boat, AT SEA, about a mile off the LI shore, and I radioed the Coast Gaurd... and they said it wasn't their problem.
I then told them I had two small children onboard (which I did), and they mulled it over and finally said they would help, but they would be awhile.
We waited nearly an hour and a half, and they never showed! Another boat - a civilain - came out and finally towed us in, and I threw the guy 50 bucks.
It never ceases to amaze me how little this Gov't does for it's own people. 
True story - I swear to god.
The police wouldn't help you if you were stuck - its not their job - but they would gladly arrest the friend you called if he failed to get you, for Wrongful death. The laws are NOT designed to protect people; they are designed to punish offenders - and thats IT!
Its a common mis-conception.
Anyhow, I was in a situation once - I'll spare you the details - wherein I had a windfall when I was 18 and had a party with 1000 of my friends for my 19th birthday.
Two years later, when the money finally ran out and I had nowhere to live, only one friend was willing to let me stay with him, and one other would come by at least once a week and take me out and treat me.
Thats it - over a thousand people I thought were friends, and only two came through when I really needed them.
You only find out who your TRUE friends are when you REALLY need them - its one of life's harsher lessons.
Anyhow, we're drifting again, even though this relates to the topic.
If you really think the guys is a friend, you should sit down and talk with him, one-on-one. Explain to him that his distrust is hurtful to you, and the group as a whole. Only if he's selfish will he not try to change his ways. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Feb 2009 17:54:32 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 17:33:18
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-The Folding Steel Chair is starting to sound reasonable now! 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 19:30:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If you dialed 911 because your car broke down, you would be breaking the law and receive a summons for mis-using the system.
In a blizzard??
I live in Florida, so I don't know from blizzards. I just get to see the government spending taxpayer money to drag people out of flooded houses after hurricanes, because they were too stupid to evacuate when they were told. 
But just replace '911' with 'a tow truck', and we'll call it good. Seriously, I would never drag a friend out of bed and into a blizzard at 3am, if I had another option.
quote:
It never ceases to amaze me how little this Gov't does for it's own people.
It never ceases to amaze me how much it does to them. :)
quote:
Thats it - over a thousand people I thought were friends, and only two came through when I really needed them.
That's an old, old story. A painful lesson, but not surprising.
quote:
If you really think the guys is a friend, you should sit down and talk with him, one-on-one. Explain to him that his distrust is hurtful to you, and the group as a whole. Only if he's selfish will he not try to change his ways.
But also listen to what he's saying, and try to find something that you can do that will make him feel like you're meeting him half way.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
Edited by - ErskineF on 11 Feb 2009 19:31:42 |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 19:32:07
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It is all a matter of perspective really, my player thinks I am being unreasonable for not letting him do whatever he wants and for enforcing the rules as written rather than his interpretation of there actual meaning. This to his view of the world is me being petty, arbitary and inflexible. 
I think exotic weapons need exotic feats, fighters need use magic device to use wands and that a feral template neaderthal barbarian with a troll bloodline and charisma 6 would have a lot of difficulty playing in a campaign set in Arabel.
We all have opinions 
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Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 19:54:21
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-Yeah bring out the steel chair.
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 20:00:43
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I'm gonna bring a whole set of garden furniture!   |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 20:49:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
It is all a matter of perspective really, my player thinks I am being unreasonable for not letting him do whatever he wants and for enforcing the rules as written rather than his interpretation of there actual meaning. This to his view of the world is me being petty, arbitary and inflexible.
Then again, he may be objectively stupid. Some people are. I assumed he must have some redeeming qualities, though, or you wouldn't have been so emphatic about keeping him around.
quote:
I think exotic weapons need exotic feats, fighters need use magic device to use wands and that a feral template neaderthal barbarian with a troll bloodline and charisma 6 would have a lot of difficulty playing in a campaign set in Arabel.
I find myself in complete agreement with you.
Didn't you say in a previous thread that he had only played second edition before? It's weird, but I have encountered the following two ideas coexisting in players' brains:
1) Third edition sucks. I hate it, I hate it, I hate!
2) I want to create the most bizarre character that third edition rules will allow, and if you object I'm gonna pout.
I don't know if it was their way of protesting the rules, or what, but I had two of those guys at one time. I didn't kick them out of the group, because they were the group. I just left. Politely. We're still friends. (Well, one is my nephew, but I consider him a friend too.)
quote:
We all have opinions
Yes, they've been compared with a certain part of our anatomy in their universality and fecal content. I think it's fair to say that some are packed fuller and are somewhat stinkier though.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
Edited by - ErskineF on 11 Feb 2009 20:50:27 |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 21:17:16
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Sadly this player is one who has played 3rd ed before unlike the rest of the group, but at epic levels
And was also an advocate for using 3e over 2e rules, as long as he didn't DM 
And yes he does have many redeeming features, I just can't remember what they are for at least 48 hours after the session  |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 21:40:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
And yes he does have many redeeming features, I just can't remember what they are for at least 48 hours after the session
Well, good luck with him. Save the lawn chair barrage as a last resort.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 03:50:08
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Or you could hook a car battery to HIS chair, and give him a jolt every time he starts acting up.
Shock Therapy usually works wonders in behaviour modification, and if it doesn't in his case, at least the rest of you will finally be enjoying yourselves.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 04:05:12
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-What if he likes the Shock Therapy?
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 04:21:36
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-   That was a funny one!
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 09:29:23
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Can anyone recommend a good hardware store, electrical website and possibly a book on anatomy
Now where did I put those clamps ??? |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 13:50:31
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| I'd go with Battery Cables and splice in a moment swich - this way you can randomize the intervals and duration. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 22:17:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
It is all a matter of perspective really, my player thinks I am being unreasonable for not letting him do whatever he wants and for enforcing the rules as written rather than his interpretation of there actual meaning. This to his view of the world is me being petty, arbitary and inflexible.
It just hit me--the person in question is your frenemy. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 00:53:10
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Well pat of the problem appear upset with results about two days, however the nezt 5 days are ok. This infers playing once a week. Depending on how often the play occurs it clearly could become a greater or lessor effect.
All ready advised have been talked to the player, this appears not to be going well.
Expell player has been rejected as an option.
This tends to become a need for an aritar of the rules.
The player appears to have become a min/maxer and in is posible trying to impose playable races and/or classes that you did not expect.
Part of this clearly can be DM fault by not setting what source books can be used and specifing exceptions (races banned from use in Core and classes permitted from splat).
Though the biggest problem appears player does not trust your judgement or reading of the rules. Rules interpertation can be presented to a third party, or even a forum for interpertation of the rules. This clearly is an option that you should consider. Right now we have had heard one side of concern, so discussion at candlekeep might not be the best place to have an open discussion. The jury pool might be tainted, even if not the player might believe a decsion has already been made because you have more time to discuss your concerns. I do not believe it would be tainted should the player join this thread to better explain position, just a player might be concerned about the discussion that has already occured.
I do invite player to join cabdlekeep, however I would also advise that the dispite be discussed at a forum that appears to have balanced discussion or no prior discussion to avoid the appearance of one side or the other having picked sides.
ENWorld, pazio and I am sure many of other locations exist that a discussion about rules rulings can be held with both presenting their interpertations and saying why the rules permit/deny the interpertation.
Oh such a discussion could be done here, if the player believes many of us have not made a ruling agaist, just that we have hread one side of the issue.
You call the player friend most of the time, just get fustrated for a time after the game session.
Perhaps the player is in the same situation.
Ask player if asking others to look at disputes is something that would be considered. I would not use a poll on who is right and who is wrong. If such a discussion does take place at all it should be about rule interpertation. With side discussions about what a DN and player can and should do (Yes a DM can do anything, however should everything). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 14:44:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
A friend would.
So you're saying I'm a bad friend because I don't have a driver's license?
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There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 15:06:14
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I don't have one either - no, I don't drink... AT ALL - it has to do with none driving issues altogether, believe it or not. The Gov't decided to punish me for something completely unrelated to operating motor vehicles by revoking my license (and I don't want to get into it further).
Anyhow, I would still pick-up my friend.
I almost froze to death one night because I didn't have a ride - I was just 16, and I was afraid to call my parents, because they trusted me to stay out every weekend (I went to a local college to play RPGs all weekend). The deal was that I had to be reliable, and make sure I always caught the last train home of Sunday nights, otherwise I would not be allowed to go anymore.
When I missed the train, I refused to call my parents and get in trouble, and decided to wait for the next one, which would be coming along about 6 hours later (Sundays are always the worst).
It was January, and about 12 degrees out, and by 2 AM I could barely move. I did eventually call my parents - I had icicles in my hair by then - and I didn't get in trouble for missing the train, but I DID get in trouble for not calling them sooner.
Having been in that situation - by morning they would have found my stupid arse frozen to the bench - I would risk getting a ticket to go get someone I cared about.
I suppose it all depends on your definition of 'friend'. I once thought everyone I knew and hungout with occassionally was a friend, but now I know those people were all just aquiantences. In fact, except for my kids, I'd have to say nearly everyone I ever played D&D with was just an aquaintence.
Of course, at the time, I thought we were all friends.
Oh... and here's a weird little fact from my life experience - one of the very few people who ever came through for me when I really needed it I had considered an 'enemy' before that point. The guy himself I never really bothered with much, but the group he hung with were a bunch of A-holes of the worst kind imaginable (thugs, junkies, rapists, etc).
One night when I had no place to stay, and he heard about it, he allowed me to stay at his house for a few days... and I didn't even like the guy.
Most of my friends wouldn't let me stay with them... just goes to show you, you never know about people.
Edit Sorry if this seemed somewhat off-topic mods. There was a point to it all - I was just trying to relate to the OP that everyone you consider 'a friend' may not be, when time has a way of clarifying the situation.
And you also have to listen to Mr. Spock - "The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few".
What that means is that if a player is ruining it for everyone else, then you have to decide what's more important - their friendship, or the other people you are also friends with, and the game you are trying to run.
Also - friends don't go out of their way to disrupt a friend's game; especially if it involves not wanting the DM to keep in touch with other players outside of game-sessions. Thats a little weird, AND possessive. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2009 19:58:23 |
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Patapon
Acolyte
France
3 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 17:08:42
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Wow. I had pretty bad players with me, as a player or a master, because my friends and I always enjoyed bringing people to roleplaying if they didn't know anything about and were interested... but some of you guys seem to have seen a lot of hard times ^^.
I agree. You should discuss the matter with him, face to face, without any other players.
Talk to him honestly, and bring up any paper he might want to see to prove he is wrong.
If he's still paranoid after that... then I don't know.
Maybe he should stop gaming for a few weeks.
Just to breath a little. |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 19:34:47
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Cheers Patapon.
I have had my fair share of random players, but what would roleplay be without players that make you tear your hair out?
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Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2009 : 21:21:57
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This sounds sort of familiar to me, Wrigs. Not -exactly- the same, but somebody who was copping an attitude and making the sessions feel uncomfortable and confrontational.
It was really unpleasant, but I finally told him (after one really nasty incident and a few hours to cool down...in a diner with the rest of the group) that these arguments were detracting from everyone's fun, and we can do all sorts of things besides DnD.
This fellow actually is a very good guy who I consider a dear friend, but if things go too far outside the box, or his perception of how things SHOULD be, he tends to get a little bit panicked. Our first big connection was through DnD, but it also seems to be our only real point of contention.
I suggested that we simply do something else instead. Bowling, movie going, vidya games...in other words, "lets play something else for awhile, this isn't fun anymore."
I think it really got through to him, and while he still occasionally gets his feathers a little bit ruffled, he's kept from any further outbursts. Maybe it was really just a matter of him not understanding just how frustrated he was making people with his behavior, and I hope that it's a similar situation with your player, Wrigs. |
"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
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Trust me I'm a DM, honest.
