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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 08:12:29
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| Kuje, Markustay - if you both could PM me about what you really think I'd be interested to read what you have to say. I would also treat your PMs as 'Strictly Confidential'. Thanks. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 15:03:28
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Oh, what the H. I think I know where Kuje and MT are going with this (and I agree with them), but go ahead and PM me as well.  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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frapast1981
Acolyte
Italy
29 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 15:10:48
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Please, Kuje and Markustay, PM me as well. (Kuje do you remember me? :) )
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 18:08:57
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I do. :) And to the three of you, I'll send my PM's shortly. :)
quote:
Originally posted by frapast1981
Please, Kuje and Markustay, PM me as well. (Kuje do you remember me? :) )
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 18:37:29
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I'm fairly certain Kuje and I are on the same page here (along with other CK scribes I've spoken to over the past year).
So my PMing anyone would probably be redundant.
But I'll just check with Kuje and see. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 18:48:21
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Well, I know I'm on the same page as Kuje, so if you're on the same page as him, you're on the same page as me.
We need more paper. This page is getting crowded. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 19:11:52
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LOL - not entirely on the same page, but my ideas fold neatly into his.
It all boils down to what I - and others - have said for months now - by all apearances, it seems as if the designers were all running in different directions when it came to 4e.
It almost seems as if each one of them was just nodding his head while listening to the others, and then ran off and did his own thing.
Don't want to name details and specifics - but if you just go through Rich Bakers replies about 4e over at WotC - before it was released - it shows you jusy how 'out-of-the-loop' one of the main designers were.
About half his answers turned out wrong. 
He even seemed surprised by some of the 4eFRCG entries.
How the hell can something like that happen? And the fact the 'nut-job' in charge of their digital developments was never double-checked for an entire year? To the point where he was plagerizing material from other sites? And NO ONE bothered to address that?
I would say someone was alseep at the wheel, but it looks more like a case of mass hysteria from where I'm sitting.
Or "too many chiefs and not enough Indians".
Whatever... whats done is done, for better or worse.
Edit: Disclaimer: This is all opinion and conjecture, and I'm only stating how it appears to me - take it with a grain of salt.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2009 19:15:09 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 21:55:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
'Unification of product lines' appears to be the new corporate buzzwords these days, unfortunately. 
Why sell half the people peanut Butter, and the other Half Chocolate, when you can just sell everyone Reeses Peanut Butter Cups?
While good on their own and I wouldn't mind Reese's Peanut Butter Cups dribbled over my ice cream, I most definitely do not want a Reeses Peanut Butter Cups & jelly sandwich.  |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 05:05:41
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Well, the idea there would be to extract the peanut butter from the cup, using several cups, while throwing out the unused chocolate, thus selling far more product.
I see it everywhere, not just in RPG stuff. I was annoyed recently when I went to buy a new charger for my son's Gameboy - it seems they no longer sell chargers at Wallmart that work with just one handheld (that would require too much shelf space), so instead they sell you a universal charger (with lots of adapter-pins you can lose) that cost about twice the price.
Its the same everywhere - sell you more then you need, and then you pick out what you need. Its easier on inventory, and they force everyone to buy the same package, even if you want diffeent things from it.
They no longer WANT FR fans... they want D&D fans. Ones who will make their parents go out and buy this year 'shiney new setting'. Quality no longer matters, because of 'planned obsolescence'. They don't need to worry weather something will hold someone's interst for very long - in fact, they don't want THAT at all. They WANT you to get bored with this year's game setting so you'll buy the next one.
The 'heart' has gone out of D&D, thats all I can say. I just hope smaller companies can keep the dream alive. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2009 20:08:09 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 16:37:33
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Kuje, you can PM me with your thoughts if you want (and, so can anyone else who wants to share their opinion).
EDIT: Thanks Kuje--I received the PM and will read through it later. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 06 Feb 2009 20:41:15 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 23:08:05
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| I just wish they'd let the Realms officially die rather than try so hard at killing it with mediocrity while pretending to try keeping it alive. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 23:24:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
I just wish they'd let the Realms officially die rather than try so hard at killing it with mediocrity while pretending to try keeping it alive.
Well, in some sense the RPG aspect of it has died since they won't be putting out anymore supplemental books in this edition. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 12:43:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I'm not sure and I'd rather not give a public opinion on what I think happened. If anyone wants to hear what I think, there's ways to contact me, privately. :)
Time to step out of the shadows for a bit.
I am a bit late, but this got me curious; could you drop me a PM about this? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 19:28:42
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Its nothing really that hasn't been said a hundred times over around here a few months back, when tempers were flaring over the Misbegotten Realms. 
Kuje and I weren't on exaclty the same wavelength (I found it strange I acreditted them with slightly more... clandestine... motives), but the jist was the same. It boils down to the fact that the Realms were NOT change for the fans, it was changed for the guys in charge, whatever reasons you may want to assign them.
And like I said, it's nothing that hasn't been said before.
And they can't even deny the veracity of my statement - which isn't conjecture for once - they SAID they changed the Realms to attract new fans, and were well aware there was going to be a backlash amongst the 'old gaurd'.
Ergo, they can't possibly EVER claim is was for the fans, since the only 'fans' they appear to be trying to please were the theoretical ones (read: non-existant at the time the decisions were made) they were hoping to attract.
So they were catering to a group that didn't exist? I don't think so....
For better or worse, whats done is done, whatever their real reasons may have been. All I can say is that I hope for their sake the numbers work for them - Corporations don't take too kindly to people who destroy valuable IPs. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2009 18:17:55 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 20:23:50
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| I kinda hope the numbers don't work for them. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 23:57:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And they can't even deny the veracity of my statement - which isn't conjecture for once - they SAID they changed the Realms to attract new fans, and were well aware there was going to be a backlash amongst the 'old gaurd'.
They want to attract a wide as possible tranche of new buyers, but it's against their financial interest to create new fans of the Realms as a roleplaying setting, since they're producing a few basic books for lots of settings, not lots of detailed books for a few. quote:
. . . Corporations don't take too kindly to people who destroy valuable IPs.
I'm sure Wizards' management are quite aware that they're harming the longer-term value of their setting properties (in a kind of slash-and-burn agriculture) by reducing them to 'skins' for the game and 'core brand' of D&D. |
Edited by - Faraer on 08 Feb 2009 23:59:42 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 18:38:49
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"Skins" 
I like that... A LOT. Its very appropriate.
The fact that certain classes will only appear in certain PG's is indication that someone needs to purchase at least that much each year, just to have the 'complete rules'. As an example, on a recent 'dip' into the Eberron Boards (what can I say... I go 'slumming' sometimes  ), I noted that many of the 4e players had purchased the FRPG just for the Swordmage class. Interesting... it appears their evil plans are working...
<did I just hear some 'evil-villain' laughter off on the distance?>
They're taking the same approach with races - having them only appear in certain CG's, but that is less an issue for players, I would think, and thats pretty-much always been the case anyway. As a DM, I always bought ALL the setting guides, even for worlds I never planned to run, just to gleen the monsters/races from them.
Anyway, with most of the game rules appearing in the yearly setting books, that seems to be the only way (as of right now) for people to get 'expansion material' in printed form, so I can believe that we are moving well-away from setting-fans and more toward "D&D fans" as time goes on.
Are there ANY core splatbooks planned? That would almost seem counter-productive to their current model....
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
I kinda hope the numbers don't work for them.
I understand the sentiment...
But I keep thinking, if 4eFR tanks, something even worse may happen to it.
I'm not talking about IP-death - I could stand to see FR be 'retired' as an active setting. What would be even worse is for Hasbro to 'deconstruct' it even further, turning it into a line of toys (the miniatures probably make more then the books).
I could just see a set of 'action figures', and an Adventures of Drizzt cartoon.
Oh yes... there are worse things then death....
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2009 03:53:19 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 18:58:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Are there ANY core splatbooks planned? That would almost seem counter-productive to their current model....
Those would be the 'Power' books they are publishing. The first was Martial Power and I think it will be followed up by Arcane Power (4/2009), Divine Power (7/2009) and Primal Power (10/2009) in the coming year.
Edit: Added dates. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 10 Feb 2009 19:02:29 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 03:57:33
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Ahhh, I see...
So 'Power' has replaced the over-used and rather innacurate 'Complete' now.
Gives a whole new meaning to Power of Faerűn.
I can just see the ads... "Now you're playing with POWER!". <retch> |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2009 13:51:22 |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 04:02:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I could just see a set of 'action figures', and an Adventures of Drizzt cartoon.
Oh sure, like you wouldn't run out and buy all seven of the Seven Sisters.
Hell, Markus that's actually a good idea! They'd have to go back to the 2e look though. That 3e Storm is just pathetic. 
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 13:33:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ahhh, I see...
So 'Power' has replaced the over-used and rather innacurate 'Complete' now.
Gives a whole new meaning to Power of Faerűn now.
I can just see the ads... "Now you're playing with POWER!". <retch>
these truly are no different then the too numerous complete, races, or environmental setting books for 3E. I still come across PRC's that I had either forgotten about or never saw. I have almost all of the 3 and 3.5 setting core and FR sourcebooks. I imagine 4E will run a similar course providing expanded options for players and DM's alike. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 13:55:35
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Oh, by the way. If you go to Wizard's Consolidated Lists page, you can look up all the 3.0/3.5 published items below.
- Invocations - 126
- Monsters - 2678
- Spells - 1606
- Feats - 3304
- Classes - 175
- Prestige Classes - 782
Granted, there are a lot of duplicates since it lists an item each time it's published (Purple Knight were published 3 times, Complete Warrior, FRCS and PGtF), but that's still a lot of stuff.
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I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 14:36:47
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I could just see a set of 'action figures', and an Adventures of Drizzt cartoon.
Oh sure, like you wouldn't run out and buy all seven of the Seven Sisters.
Hell, Markus that's actually a good idea! They'd have to go back to the 2e look though. That 3e Storm is just pathetic.
Yes, I probably would buy the whole set...
But only if it was 'anatomically correct'.
I'd also watch the Drizzt cartoon... and probably hate myself for it.
===================================================
And as for it being a good idea - I actually was going to write Hasbro a letter once, explaining to them a MUCH better way to market their miniatures.
I have small children who just LOVE to play with all the minis, and 'playsets' featuring scenes from the novels (like Companions of the Hall vs Shimmergloom), along the lines of the ones that micromachines used to do for Star Wars (and I have all of them), would appeal to kids (of appropriate age, of course - small parts and all..)
You market them under the 'Forgotten Realms' logo, NOT the D&D logo - believe it or not, some parents will sill avoid anything with those words on it - and then include a set of D&D stat cards inside the box, with a set of 'Basic Starter Rules' for the 'Advanced Game'.
What you now have is a bunch of parents unknowingly going out and buying their kids D&D 'toys', and slipping a tantalizing tease into the box for the regular game.
You market them in toy stores, right where they used to sell the micromachines Star Wars crap and the MIghty Max playsets - both around the same size and niche I'm picturing - and you sell a bazillion of them around the Holidays - serepticiously implanting the idea of a 'bigger, better game' somewhere out there.
You also mention the 'booster packs' - most of which will only be available in the 'speciality shops' (LGS), and you include one of those small catalogue-thingies to get the kids drooling over the stuff they don't have yet.
You get 'the masses' of unwashed children both interested in D&D and get them to drag their parents to game stores to buy more 'booster packs'... just as they did when they wanted Pokémon cards.
I have four boys; I KNOW this would work, and it would probably save D&D from crashing and burning within the next few years (thanks to video games), but since I'm no longer interested in saving the hobby for HASBRO, I never wrote the letter...
But it WOULD work.
Edit: And unfortunately, turn the game into exactly what I detest, and what 4e is all about - combat encounters. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2009 14:41:52 |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 15:19:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes, I probably would buy the whole set...
But only if it was 'anatomically correct'.
And life size?
quote:
I'd also watch the Drizzt cartoon... and probably hate myself for it.
I have the old D&D cartoon in the Netflix queue "for the kids."
quote:
I have four boys; I KNOW this would work,
Oh, heck yes it would work. My seven yr old already saves up his pitiful $3/wk allowance to buy their miniatures.
quote:
Edit: And unfortunately, turn the game into exactly what I detest, and what 4e is all about - combat encounters.
That's what it was in the beginning, and that's what the kids want. They can grow out of it given the chance, but you're not going to get ten yr old boys interested by marketing it as tea parties with orcs.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 15:26:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I could just see a set of 'action figures', and an Adventures of Drizzt cartoon.
Oh sure, like you wouldn't run out and buy all seven of the Seven Sisters.
Hell, Markus that's actually a good idea! They'd have to go back to the 2e look though. That 3e Storm is just pathetic.
Yes, I probably would buy the whole set...
But only if it was 'anatomically correct'.
I'd also watch the Drizzt cartoon... and probably hate myself for it.
===================================================
And as for it being a good idea - I actually was going to write Hasbro a letter once, explaining to them a MUCH better way to market their miniatures.
I have small children who just LOVE to play with all the minis, and 'playsets' featuring scenes from the novels (like Companions of the Hall vs Shimmergloom), along the lines of the ones that micromachines used to do for Star Wars (and I have all of them), would appeal to kids (of appropriate age, of course - small parts and all..)
You market them under the 'Forgotten Realms' logo, NOT the D&D logo - believe it or not, some parents will sill avoid anything with those words on it - and then include a set of D&D stat cards inside the box, with a set of 'Basic Starter Rules' for the 'Advanced Game'.
What you now have is a bunch of parents unknowingly going out and buying their kids D&D 'toys', and slipping a tantalizing tease into the box for the regular game.
You market them in toy stores, right where they used to sell the micromachines Star Wars crap and the MIghty Max playsets - both around the same size and niche I'm picturing - and you sell a bazillion of them around the Holidays - serepticiously implanting the idea of a 'bigger, better game' somewhere out there.
You also mention the 'booster packs' - most of which will only be available in the 'speciality shops' (LGS), and you include one of those small catalogue-thingies to get the kids drooling over the stuff they don't have yet.
You get 'the masses' of unwashed children both interested in D&D and get them to drag their parents to game stores to buy more 'booster packs'... just as they did when they wanted Pokémon cards.
I have four boys; I KNOW this would work, and it would probably save D&D from crashing and burning within the next few years (thanks to video games), but since I'm no longer interested in saving the hobby for HASBRO, I never wrote the letter...
But it WOULD work.
Edit: And unfortunately, turn the game into exactly what I detest, and what 4e is all about - combat encounters.
That wouldn't work -- it's intelligent marketing. And thus they would never allow it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 15:27:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'd also watch the Drizzt cartoon... and probably hate myself for it.
Dude, I watched the BattleTech cartoon. And then they made it CANON. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 15:44:03
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| One of these days I will have to find out what BattleTech actually is, as the theme comes up regularly in these pages. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 15:48:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'd also watch the Drizzt cartoon... and probably hate myself for it.
Dude, I watched the BattleTech cartoon. And then they made it CANON.
I loved that cartoon... It was bad, but I loved it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 15:49:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
One of these days I will have to find out what BattleTech actually is, as the theme comes up regularly in these pages.
It's another setting that isn't what it was. They blew it up with an event called the Jihad which, in my opinion, is even more nonsensical than the Sellplague. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 17:07:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
One of these days I will have to find out what BattleTech actually is, as the theme comes up regularly in these pages.
It's another setting that isn't what it was. They blew it up with an event called the Jihad which, in my opinion, is even more nonsensical than the Sellplague.
That's very true, but the nice thing about BattleTech is that the game itself relies very little on canon since it's mostly a wargame*. Ironically, whenever I play, I seem to develop a very bad Scottish accent which has led to death by 'friendly fire' on occasion. Read too many Gray Death Legion and Northwind Highlander novels...
*Yes, there is a RPG set in the universe, but when you can stomp around in 100 ton mechs, why do you want to emote your feelings? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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I tried I really did
