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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 21:37:34
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Using the logic that Karsus was a Wizard from the Realms and he fathered the Karsites who's favoured class in Binder, along with the fact that on his death Karsus became a Vestige. I think it is fair to assume that Binders exist in the Realms if not originate from them. 
So is there any Realms specific information about this Class?
And has anyone tried to intergrate the binder societies into the Realms setting?
What sites, cities and nations make good bases for binder societies?
Need some npc's the pc's won't be able to predict 
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Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 22:31:30
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Ah binders...
A very interesting scroll (mostly attributed to M. de Bie's comments on the matter) has been started a while back based on my attempt to incorporate the binders in the realms.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11873
As I recall, Karsus's fate as a vestige is NOT fr canon. I based most of my binders in Cormyr. It is viewed as an act of heresy, therefore illegal and hunted by the order of Seropaenes, a regroupment of lawful fayths. I found no fr-canon info on binders at all, but I use them alot (though I think the binder class is weak,I tweaked it up a bit... alot). So I made up about everything, but the order of seropaenes and the hidden librairy (which I located in the mountains of Cormyr, "thunderpeaks" I think it was called). I've got to check my notes. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 00:00:48
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Or you can check out the official binders in FR as posted in the Class Chronicles archive at WotC.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718 |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 09:36:00
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Karsus is part of Realms canon, yeah?, so is it just his vestige that isn't canon?
I have looked at the WotC bnder info but it is not very specific. I was hoping to put my binders also in Cormyr so do you have any suggestions?
Also why did you need to tweak the binder? Is it weak compared to base classes? The forums generally seem quite positive.
Will now go and check out old thread you suggested.  |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 16:07:01
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| yeah ... the vestige (and race) aren't canon ... Karsus him self is very much canon |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 18:02:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
And has anyone tried to intergrate the binder societies into the Realms setting?
I like the Binder class (in general Tome of Magic is a great book). However, I'm not sure fully fledged binder societies would work in the Realms, mostly because I tend to think of binders as solitary types. I see binders as being failed wizard apprentices, since their key ability isn't Intelligence. They probably really wanted to learn but just couldn't master the spells, they may even have a few levels in Wizard but reached a point where their training was discontinued.
In any respect, binders make for characters with very interesting backgrounds since certain vestiges have racial connections.
After their arcane training was abandoned, or shortly before, they discovered pact magic. Perhaps from a botched Summon spell.
As for the Realms I can see binders working in any location as loners, or powerful individuals who keep their binder abilities hidden.
I don't really buy the clerics hate binders story. It's too much like the witch burnings of the Middle Ages. Some clergies no doubt hate them but most clerics, I should imagine, are more bothered about increasing the number of their deity's worshippers. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 18:27:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
And has anyone tried to intergrate the binder societies into the Realms setting?
I like the Binder class (in general Tome of Magic is a great book). However, I'm not sure fully fledged binder societies would work in the Realms, mostly because I tend to think of binders as solitary types. I see binders as being failed wizard apprentices, since their key ability isn't Intelligence. They probably really wanted to learn but just couldn't master the spells, they may even have a few levels in Wizard but reached a point where their training was discontinued.
In any respect, binders make for characters with very interesting backgrounds since certain vestiges have racial connections.
I still want to use the book to create a small group of binders (and shadowcasters, and Truenamers) who worship Tenebrous* as god of undeath and shadows. And the Truenamer? he just wants to unearth the secret of the Last Word...  I figure that Tenebrous must fit into the Realms.
quote:
I don't really buy the clerics hate binders story. It's too much like the witch burnings of the Middle Ages.
Which actually happened more during the Renassaince/Age of Enlightenment (in Europe; other societies kept up the merry old tradition down to present day in some cases). Sorry, I know it's OT.
But I otherwise agree with your words, madame. I can't be the only person tired of lawful -- lawful good at that! -- clerics and paladins being constantly shown as tyrannical bigots for no real reason whatever.
* -- For those unaware of the history: first there was Orcus, demon lord of the undead. Then he got whacked by Kiaransalee, the Vengeful Banshee, drow goddess of undeath and vengeance. She usurped his throne but meanwhile Orcus 'came back' as Tenebrous, an actual god. He used something called 'the Last Word' to kill and mug other deities for their powers and goodies (was Orcus a powergamer in life?), and eventually came back to 'life' as Orcus, bigger and meaner than ever. |
Edited by - Ardashir on 12 Feb 2009 18:30:27 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 19:09:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
I don't really buy the clerics hate binders story. It's too much like the witch burnings of the Middle Ages.
Which actually happened more during the Renassaince/Age of Enlightenment (in Europe; other societies kept up the merry old tradition down to present day in some cases). Sorry, I know it's OT.
But I otherwise agree with your words, madame. I can't be the only person tired of lawful -- lawful good at that! -- clerics and paladins being constantly shown as tyrannical bigots for no real reason whatever.
I must disagree with you here. I think that being lawful means trying to keep a certain order. Tyranny is a lawful concept, but it does not mean that being lawful makes you a tyrant.
Here is my definition of a vestige*. When you die, you either:
1- Go the the afterlife with your god
2- Go straight to hell/abyss because you sold your soul at some point (it might be on the fugue plane)
3- Dissolve in the wall of the faithless for having not worshiped any gods
4- Get punished for being a fake, so by having wronged your god in some way
Might be more that I forget, anyway.
A vestige falls in the fourth type (not all of them), and this punishment is to be stuck between the plane, powerless and unable to communicate with anyone. Or are they? Binders found a way to not only communicate with these lost souls, but also to gain powers from them. Would it surprise you if the gods were mad at this? (mostly the lawful ones, some chaotic gods might find it funny)
By becoming a binder, you endanger the balance, because you encourage something over which the gods have no control. You have the power to undo a god's decision. I'm not saying it is evil, but I think it is highly chaotic, so not surprisingly viewed as heresy.
Some binders might think this god's behavior unfair, and that no soul deserves such a punishment. Some might find it so unfair that they will fight against any church, or they will wish to help their vestige to redeem themselves. Some won't care, they just want the power. In any case, binder cannot be religious people, nor can they be easily accepted by religious groups (if at all).
I agree that most of them are loners. But some of them understand that to accomplish certain deeds, you need allies. Hence the groups of binders, some might ironically call those "cults" (since cultists are generally religious people).
*Now, this post is the way I understand and use the binders and the vestiges. I'm not saying any of this is canon, or that everyone should understand it this way. Sadly, not nearly enough info on pact magic came out, so I've got to make stuff up. But guess what, I love making stuff up. 
Edit: grammar |
Edited by - Kilvan on 12 Feb 2009 22:00:48 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 19:16:52
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I had a campaign entirely centered on a single vestige, a follower of Bane who discovered that his god was in fact Iyatchu Xvim*. Because he knew too much, Xvim had him killed and called him a fake. He thought he silenced him for good until one of the pc found the pentacle and incantation needed to communicate with him. They made a pact, in exchange for his powers, he must spread the truth. Unknown to both Bane and the PC, the pentacle and the incantation had been planted by Cyric himself for the PC to find. I have about 10 others vestiges, all have been denied afterlife by the god they followed.
The PC is CG, and highly mad at all gods for their harsh punishment on people who were once such devoted spirits. Everyone can make mistakes, and the gods should not be so rigid about it. He doesn't wish to kill the gods (because alot of binders do) but he wish to make them understand his point of view, and to make them forgive these souls.
*I expressed a few times my theory about Xvim having secretly taken the place of his now-dead father to grow in popularity. |
Edited by - Kilvan on 12 Feb 2009 22:03:49 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 21:56:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
I don't really buy the clerics hate binders story. It's too much like the witch burnings of the Middle Ages. Some clergies no doubt hate them but most clerics, I should imagine, are more bothered about increasing the number of their deity's worshippers.
Those who gain power from vestiges could teach their practices to others until the spread of binders starts drawing worship away from the gods... why supplicate and worship a diety when you can strike a bargain with a non-divine entity to grant you powers?
Wizards and psions, while gaining power akin to clerics in their own right, still often worship gods and aren't gaining their powers from them... they don't challenge the gods' influence in mortal affairs unless they actively work against the gods, but the binders' pact magic seems almost like a blasphemy compared to cleric magic. And even if there are gods who might be tolerant of such practices, I don't see the mortal worshippers being so open-minded. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 15:22:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
I still want to use the book to create a small group of binders (and shadowcasters, and Truenamers) who worship Tenebrous* as god of undeath and shadows. And the Truenamer? he just wants to unearth the secret of the Last Word... I figure that Tenebrous must fit into the Realms.
* -- For those unaware of the history: first there was Orcus, demon lord of the undead. Then he got whacked by Kiaransalee, the Vengeful Banshee, drow goddess of undeath and vengeance. She usurped his throne but meanwhile Orcus 'came back' as Tenebrous, an actual god. He used something called 'the Last Word' to kill and mug other deities for their powers and goodies (was Orcus a powergamer in life?), and eventually came back to 'life' as Orcus, bigger and meaner than ever.
I figure Tenebrous fits into the Realms too. It would make an interesting story if Tenebrous and Orcus were/are separate beings. (And Yes, god-killers can only ever be power-gamers.)
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
I don't really buy the clerics hate binders story. It's too much like the witch burnings of the Middle Ages.
Which actually happened more during the Renassaince/Age of Enlightenment (in Europe; other societies kept up the merry old tradition down to present day in some cases). Sorry, I know it's OT.
But I otherwise agree with your words, madame. I can't be the only person tired of lawful -- lawful good at that! -- clerics and paladins being constantly shown as tyrannical bigots for no real reason whatever.
With regard to the witch burnings, I have the words "Mittel Alte" stuck in my head and directly translated. I'm sure witch burnings happened before Cromwell and the Puritans and afterwards too.
To get back on topic, if binders begin to promote the use/knowledge/awareness of a certain vestige isn't that akin to a cleric/paladin talking about their deity. I can see how that action could annoy clergies since it's promoting another faith. However, I suspect most binders keep their status and the source of their power secret.
Taking things a step further, it could be that vestiges want to be seen as gods, given their origin, and it could be that some part of their influence on binders is to make them proselytise. Perhaps with a sufficient number of worshippers a vestige attains divine rank 0.
It's fun to speculate. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Binders of the Realms
