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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 17:10:46
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SO I attempted to run 4th edition realms, so that I could at least give it an assessment (after reading it, I wanted to throw it in the ocean... but I still tried to see if I could make it work.
My realms has a very tolkeinesque and medieval feel (minus the disadvantages like bad teeth). Three sessions.
We just could not do it.
Waterdeep? The world power becomes a ship graveyard? Please.
homogenized gods, homogenized flavour. If I wanted the Harry Potter type fantasy I would have run Eberron (nothing wrong with it in context).
With that said I WAS sad. However, I am no longer sad, because I received new inspiration. We decided to go back to shadowdale and play that out. WHen we are done with Anauroch, I will then write the adventure where the PC's Aid Mystra in stopping her demise.
Now the 4th ed realm supplements are not total bunk for me. I am using exarchs.
In my campaign a Ranger killed Malar. That ranger is now going to be an exarch, but I have not decided whether or not to bring back Malar.
Talos who was just a face of Gruumsh will have his storm portfolio taken over by THOR whom Tyr has brought over from his other aspect's home.
THere are little nuggets you can glean, though the campaign guide is generally bunk.
This is not a well thought out thread so I apologize, but I recently just reached the decision to continue realms completely independent of support which has renewed my enthusiasm.
4th edition did not destroy the realms. Thankfully 4th edition is so easy to ignore.
It is slightly liberating. Seeing 4th edition books and feeling NO DESIRE to even open it up anymore.
I will take the formalized system of skill challenges out of fourth, and never give the rules system another glance. I have plenty of wargames I can play, I do not need a board game disguised as D&D.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 17:35:56
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I applaud you for using the guide books like a salad bar (to use Egg-Shen's analogy).
Take what you want and leave the rest. :) |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 21:46:29
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I refused to buy the 4e Realms books based on everything I'd heard and read leading up to their release and was glad I did. A friend bought them and allowed me to review them thoroughly for a couple days, and I was able to talk him into burning them by telling him what I thought.
They didn't provide much warmth in the long run, though. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
Edited by - Nerfed2Hell on 18 Jan 2009 21:49:57 |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 22:11:38
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| I have considered buying the GHotR just because of all of the consolidated lore, but I don't really want to give WotC money for butchering the realms, so I probably won't. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 22:33:45
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I have considered buying the GHotR just because of all of the consolidated lore, but I don't really want to give WotC money for butchering the realms, so I probably won't.
Except for the last couple of pages, it's all lore from before 4E -- and in some cases, there is new lore presented. I hate the Shattered Realms as much as anyone, but I cannot recommend the Grand History highly enough.
In fact, I feel partially responsible for its publication. I was one of the first people -- possibly even the first person -- to find the original pdf and start linking to it on the WotC forums. And it was after word of it spread there that WotC noticed it and thought it would be worth having. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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danbuter
Seeker
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 22:50:27
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| GHotR is worth getting. But I agree with many of your points in the OP. |
Nothing beats the gray box!
Dan |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 23:27:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In fact, I feel partially responsible for its publication. I was one of the first people -- possibly even the first person -- to find the original pdf and start linking to it on the WotC forums.
Well, I thank you for that, because one of the players in my game saw the link on the WotC forums and I downloaded it... so I don't have to contribute to the corporate evil that is WotC. Maybe more has been added to the official publication, but I settle for it as it was. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 00:07:36
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I have considered buying the GHotR just because of all of the consolidated lore, but I don't really want to give WotC money for butchering the realms, so I probably won't.
Most of the timeline entries refer specifically to the pre-4e Realms. There's really only about a page worth of entries for the events that occur up to and just after the Spellplague itself.
Aside from the timelines, are the particularly well-crafted vignettes on particular historical aspects of the Realms. Not to mention the lineage charts for most of the monarchies in FR, and a collection of historically-relevant maps too.
'Tis indeed well worth the purchase.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 00:10:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In fact, I feel partially responsible for its publication. I was one of the first people -- possibly even the first person -- to find the original pdf and start linking to it on the WotC forums. And it was after word of it spread there that WotC noticed it and thought it would be worth having.
You and me both. I posted that link so often, I had it as a short-cut link on my desktop. I even recall semi-frequently posting the original link for the Grand History PDF stored on Brian's website both here and at WotC. And, also, on a number of other frequently-travelled RPG and wargaming sites that I sometimes visited. That link, especially, got brought up a lot on the CBT boards, where a great many FR fans reside.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 19 Jan 2009 00:12:14 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 06:09:18
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quote:
Originally posted by danbuter
GHotR is worth getting.
I ... uh ... second that. The GHotR is a must have for everyone interested in Forgotten Realms Lore, and its only the last few entries which foreshadow the advent of the 4e realms. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 06:24:54
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I agree, GHotR is easily one of my most-used references for the Realms. And getting the PDF version is nice as well since you can do a Search on the pdf.
I've chosen to ignore everything from 1376 on in the books, since I do SOOOOOO like the idea of Eilistraee killing Vhaerun and absorbing his portfolio and NOT being killed by Lolth, thereby giving drow a true choice. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Gang Falconhand
Seeker
United Kingdom
85 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 11:12:20
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| Absolutely get GHotR. It's usefulness fantastically outweighs the snarky feelings you'll get over the last few entries. |
"If you have a quality let it define you." |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 13:47:15
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| Thanks for your review, Mournblade. Kudos to you for trying the system out. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 02:16:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
THere are little nuggets you can glean, though the campaign guide is generally bunk.
"It's generally bunk" is pretty much my opinion on the 4E Realms, yes.
quote:
It is slightly liberating.
I think it is liberating. The new 4E novels are coming out, and I will read only a few of them, not each one as it comes out. I don't feel like I have to relearn the setting or keep up with everything that gets done to it. I can keep my Realms however I want, and that is liberating.
I agree with the others, GHotR is definitely worth the purchase. As always, keep what you like and disregard what you don't. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Jan 2009 02:18:50 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 07:00:22
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-Great another lets bash 4e thread. These are getting so old. 
-Thank you for at least trying the 4E Realms. Sorry it didn't work for you. Play what makes you and your game group happy.
-AGHotR is a must have, in my opinion. 
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 16:12:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Great another lets bash 4e thread.
Wrong. It's about the 4E Realms setting, and there's no mandate to quietly refrain from criticism about it.
Obviously, you aren't tired enough of these threads to refrain from commenting in them. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Jan 2009 16:13:31 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 16:28:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Great another lets bash 4e thread. These are getting so old.
-Thank you for at least trying the 4E Realms. Sorry it didn't work for you. Play what makes you and your game group happy.
-AGHotR is a must have, in my opinion.
BRIMSTONE
I can understand why one does not want any criticism to 4th edition, but WOTC made an unneeded change to D&D and then completely rebooted the Forgotten realms into a shade of its former self, just to fit the new paradigm.
Unfortunately people do not always fall in line, and will criticise that with which they do not agree, even if it is against the majority.
4th edition is a new shiny. It is a new game.
It might work for Dark Sun or Eberron, but the new realms supplement is proof it could not work for the Realms.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 18:01:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Great another lets bash 4e thread. These are getting so old.
It doesn't look like $E bashing to me. Mournblade was telling us he or she didn't like it after giving it a try. Maybe he or she approached it with some bias but he or she still give it a go.
That said, it's been a fair number of months since I last visited and it does seem that the scribes of Candlekeep are still mourning the death of a much-loved friend.
Actually, it's more the madness of a friend, isn't it? It's as if a close friend has decided to cross-dress very badly, giggles girlishly in weird bars and sports several tattoos - all of which are spelt wrong and one of which is a Chinese character, which they assure us means 'dragon' but actually means 'prostitute.' |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 20 Jan 2009 18:02:34 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 20:10:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
That said, it's been a fair number of months since I last visited and it does seem that the scribes of Candlekeep are still mourning the death of a much-loved friend.
Actually, it's more the madness of a friend, isn't it? It's as if a close friend has decided to cross-dress very badly, giggles girlishly in weird bars and sports several tattoos - all of which are spelt wrong and one of which is a Chinese character, which they assure us means 'dragon' but actually means 'prostitute.'
That is quite the amusing word picture. And, for me at least, it is mourning. That very mourning is why I have not touched the 4e RPG system or any of the 4e Realms novels. Not because they are bad, but because the are a brutal reminder of what has happened to what I considered very close friend. To continue your word picture, that friend is now completely different because of a mental disorder, and WotC is the team of doctors that did the testing that caused the disorder. So my hostility is actually directed at WotC, not the 4e Realms. The 4e Realms is just my irrevocably changed friend who I cannot relate to anymore and instead end up reliving fond memories of in my head. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 20:36:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Great another lets bash 4e thread. These are getting so old.
It doesn't look like $E bashing to me. Mournblade was telling us he or she didn't like it after giving it a try. Maybe he or she approached it with some bias but he or she still give it a go.
That said, it's been a fair number of months since I last visited and it does seem that the scribes of Candlekeep are still mourning the death of a much-loved friend.
Actually, it's more the madness of a friend, isn't it? It's as if a close friend has decided to cross-dress very badly, giggles girlishly in weird bars and sports several tattoos - all of which are spelt wrong and one of which is a Chinese character, which they assure us means 'dragon' but actually means 'prostitute.'
Hmmmm... I could not of illustrated this better:)
Absolutely true. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 23:03:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Actually, it's more the madness of a friend, isn't it? It's as if a close friend has decided to cross-dress very badly, giggles girlishly in weird bars and sports several tattoos - all of which are spelt wrong and one of which is a Chinese character, which they assure us means 'dragon' but actually means 'prostitute.'
Have we met in a bar somewhere? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 13:59:12
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GHotR is one of the best books published for the Forgotten Realms.
It is the equivalent of one of those road side crosses, showing where a cherished love one died due to a drunk driver. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 23:34:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
GHotR is one of the best books published for the Forgotten Realms.
It is the equivalent of one of those road side crosses, showing where a cherished love one died due to a drunk driver.
Most poinant comparison I've read. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2009 : 17:54:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Waterdeep? The world power becomes a ship graveyard? Please.
My view of 4th ed W'deep is a little skewed from yours. What are you referencing? |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 03:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Waterdeep? The world power becomes a ship graveyard? Please.
My view of 4th ed W'deep is a little skewed from yours. What are you referencing?
in reading the blackstaff tower I did not get this impression at all. Now when I move onto mistshore, I expect to read more on this ward of waterdeep, but still would not characterize waterdeep as a Ship graveyard. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 07:28:15
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Waterdeep? The world power becomes a ship graveyard? Please.
My view of 4th ed W'deep is a little skewed from yours. What are you referencing?
in reading the blackstaff tower I did not get this impression at all. Now when I move onto mistshore, I expect to read more on this ward of waterdeep, but still would not characterize waterdeep as a Ship graveyard.
It may not be a ship graveyard, but it does seem illogical that a city of trade, built around and because of its harbor, would allow its harbor to fall to such a state. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 07:37:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Waterdeep? The world power becomes a ship graveyard? Please.
My view of 4th ed W'deep is a little skewed from yours. What are you referencing?
in reading the blackstaff tower I did not get this impression at all. Now when I move onto mistshore, I expect to read more on this ward of waterdeep, but still would not characterize waterdeep as a Ship graveyard.
It may not be a ship graveyard, but it does seem illogical that a city of trade, built around and because of its harbor, would allow its harbor to fall to such a state.
*whispers* "Da plague, dude, it wuz all da plague..."
From the novel I was actually under the impression that Mistshore was only a certain part of Waterdeep´s harbour, a ways removed and cut off from the rest. But I´m not at all sure. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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sneakypetev
Acolyte
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 07:49:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Great another lets bash 4e thread. These are getting so old.
It doesn't look like $E bashing to me. Mournblade was telling us he or she didn't like it after giving it a try. Maybe he or she approached it with some bias but he or she still give it a go.
That said, it's been a fair number of months since I last visited and it does seem that the scribes of Candlekeep are still mourning the death of a much-loved friend.
Actually, it's more the madness of a friend, isn't it? It's as if a close friend has decided to cross-dress very badly, giggles girlishly in weird bars and sports several tattoos - all of which are spelt wrong and one of which is a Chinese character, which they assure us means 'dragon' but actually means 'prostitute.'
Hmmmm... I could not of illustrated this better:)
Absolutely true.
Ditto. |
"Go for the eyes boo,go for the eyes!"- Minsc |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 14:14:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dart Ambermoon
From the novel I was actually under the impression that Mistshore was only a certain part of Waterdeep´s harbour, a ways removed and cut off from the rest. But I´m not at all sure.
Even so, I don't see a trading center that depends on its harbor willingly allowing its harbor to effectively become smaller. I'm also curious as to why the merfolk that once lived there appear to have left. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 16:08:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Waterdeep? The world power becomes a ship graveyard? Please.
My view of 4th ed W'deep is a little skewed from yours. What are you referencing?
Waterdeep entry of the FRCG. No it does not say ship graveyard but... ummm... THE naval power 100 years ago needs ANOTHER navy to protect it?
It allows these sunken ships in its harbour? Its economy RELIED on the harbour. Lets NOT consider economy while designing the needlessly altered waterdeep.
THe concept works great as a new world's city.. not for an established world.
The designers I think lost credibility with FRCG.
I have stopped reading FR novels, and I would not include them in criticism of 4e realms. 4th edition realms is LAUGHABLE.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2009 : 16:38:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It may not be a ship graveyard, but it does seem illogical that a city of trade, built around and because of its harbor, would allow its harbor to fall to such a state.
I agree--at least, it would definitely leave the impression of negligence on the part of the city leaders. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 23 Jan 2009 16:38:32 |
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I tried I really did
