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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 21:03:05
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Hello, my friends! I have refrained from speaking out about the fourth edition disaster, err, I mean Realms... After reading a few of the novels and glancing through the manuals in the store (I refuse to buy them) my summation of the "Shattered Realms" is as follows; Total, Utter, un-mitigated CRAP! There, I had to get that off my chest, thanks! I read Mistshore and enjoyed it by pretending it was some other, new fantasy world. Waterdeep, with its harbor wrecked, the merfolk gone and all the other changes, is ridiculous. I have loved the Realms since the old Grey Box and Douglas Niles first novel set in the Moonshae Isles. This is atrocious...
The Grand History of the Realms is close to the best Forgotten Realms accessory put out; reminiscent of the glory days of 2nd edition!
One more thing and then I will dissappear back into the shadows from whence I came; Does anyone remember that series of novels where the world was destroyed and separated into its elemental parts? One of the heroes was a man whose people were trapped in a huge maze and it was their life's quest to escape? I cannot remember author or title... That series is what the new Realms reminds me of. The "New Realms" are truly forgotten by me, I shall dwell in the Pre-Spell-Plague world of Faerun! |
ShadowJack |
Edited by - ShadowJack on 29 Jan 2009 21:07:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36787 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 21:19:44
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Holy Mother of Lurue! I've not seen you in a long time, ShadowJack! You still working on the minotaur city-state?
The series you're talking about -- and quite a good one, I might add -- is the Death's Gate Cycle, by Weis & Hickman, of Darksword and Dragginglance fame. Haplo was the one who had escaped from the Labyrinth. And I loved the interplay between Zifnab and his dragon... "I could have gone somewhere that I'd be appreciated! Pern, for example!" |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 21:43:57
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| Is it just the 4e Realms that is broken, or is it the whole 4e system? |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 21:52:03
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| Its both. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 21:59:15
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I shall stay in 3e Realms then and leave 4e to the pretenders  |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 22:01:21
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Holy Mother of Lurue! I've not seen you in a long time, ShadowJack! You still working on the minotaur city-state?
Sorry, who is building a minotaur nation? I was planning to make one and need some suggestions  |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36787 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 22:18:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Holy Mother of Lurue! I've not seen you in a long time, ShadowJack! You still working on the minotaur city-state?
Sorry, who is building a minotaur nation? I was planning to make one and need some suggestions
It's a thing ShadowJack started about three years back. As I recall, it started as a simple question about minotaurs, and then, by the time the thread petered out, we'd created a city-state and partial history for it. Here's the thread:
Minotaur Cultures in the Realms? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 22:58:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I applaud you for using the guide books like a salad bar (to use Egg-Shen's analogy).
Take what you want and leave the rest. :)
I'd second this.
I've found quite a few things in 4e lore and mechanics I like, so I'm going with them, but I'm still not liking 90% of it.
Still... no reason to chuck-it all out when I love to cannibalize every setting I can get my hands on (including non-RPG ones, like those in vid-games, film, and novels).
And I, too, have come to start using the word 'Exarch' - it just so much... cleaner. We used to have a dozen or so terms for basically the same thing, and its nice to have one umbrella term for the whole grouping.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2009 23:10:17 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 23:02:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Holy Mother of Lurue! I've not seen you in a long time, ShadowJack! You still working on the minotaur city-state?
Sorry, who is building a minotaur nation? I was planning to make one and need some suggestions
It's a thing ShadowJack started about three years back. As I recall, it started as a simple question about minotaurs, and then, by the time the thread petered out, we'd created a city-state and partial history for it. Here's the thread:
Minotaur Cultures in the Realms?
Indeed. I wouldn't mind an update either. I've been tinkering with a few ideas that Shadowjack and I discussed in that scroll since his last posting. But I won't bring them up until I know exactly what he's done with the material. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 23:05:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Most of the timeline entries refer specifically to the pre-4e Realms. There's really only about a page worth of entries for the events that occur up to and just after the Spellplague itself.
I would have to respectfully disagree with this.
In particular, the word 'most'.
As far as I know, 4th edition began as of 1479 DR. 3rd edition ended as of 1385 DR, ergo EVERYTHING in the GHotR is 3rd edition.
Weather you chose to use the last page as canon or not in your games is up to you. 
And I, too, cannot possibly recommend this tome enough. You may not like the way they wrapped-up that final decade, or that last page at all, but the book is all 3e and all Golden.
Aside for the re-used artwork and the desire for more maps (one on every page! ), I have ZERO compalints... and I do so love to complain.
And I have two different versions of the pdf, and yet I'm still thinking about buying a SECOND copy of the GHotR just to keep pristine. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2009 23:11:28 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 23:10:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Most of the timeline entries refer specifically to the pre-4e Realms. There's really only about a page worth of entries for the events that occur up to and just after the Spellplague itself.
I would have to respectfully disagree with this.
In particular, the word 'most'.
As far as I know, 4th edition began as of 1479 DR. 3rd edition ended as of 1385 DR, ergo EVERYTHING in the GHotR is 3rd edition.
Weather you chose to use the last page as canon or not in your games is up to you.
Well, that's most of the material in the book, isn't it? Except for the one page that outlines the set-up for the Spellplague... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 23:19:24
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Ahhh.. but the 'set-up' for the Spellplague still takes place in 3e, technically.
Strangely, the period covering 1386 to 1478 DR is not part of any edition, although it is considered post-Spellplague.
The only reason why I'm arguiing the point (although not really arguiing) is because on another site we had planned on building one of those 'alternate FR' timelines to allow folks to continue in 3e, but we had a hard time nailing-down a starting point. I personally wanted EVERYTHING in the GHotR to be canon, while others wanted to go back to 1375 DR or earlier.
MY point of contention was that the GHotR came out during 3e - 4e wasn't even here yet, and therefore we should respect the final pieces of canon lore we were given for the edition we love.
Now, what happened the Day After the Spellplague can all be changed as much as we want, as far as I'm concerned. I'm all for bringing back Mystra, or someone new, or even rebuilding the Weave or whatever.
Anyhow, aside from the disagreements on what should be canon and what should be tossed-out, I opted out of that project for one simple reason - since we do indeed have lore going up to 1385 DR, and the game world moves along (IIRC) at the rate of 2½ years of real time = one year of game time, and the last year we were in was 1375, that means we should be able to theoretically play in the 3e Realms for another 25 years!
Starting last year, of course. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2009 23:48:06 |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 00:37:39
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
One more thing and then I will dissappear back into the shadows from whence I came; Does anyone remember that series of novels where the world was destroyed and separated into its elemental parts? One of the heroes was a man whose people were trapped in a huge maze and it was their life's quest to escape? I cannot remember author or title... That series is what the new Realms reminds me of. The "New Realms" are truly forgotten by me, I shall dwell in the Pre-Spell-Plague world of Faerun!
You're talking about the Deathgate Cycle by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman. I loved every part of that series up until the very end. |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 00:42:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And I, too, cannot possibly recommend this tome enough. You may not like the way they wrapped-up that final decade, or that last page at all, but the book is all 3e and all Golden.
I actually looked at the last page or so of it a few months ago because I had been hearing all kinds of crazy things about what they had done to the Realms. When I read those pages it made me quite sad. I think the earlier reference to a roadside shrine about sums up how I felt after reading that. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 00:50:40
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The DeathGate Cycle!!! That's it!!! The Darksowrd trilogy! I have not heard about it for a long time! I loved that trilogy. I did not care for how it ended, but it was Excellent up until then!!!
I must confess I got very busy with life and my Graduate studies and only recently got re-interested in fleshing out the Minotaur City-State (Ketorn). (I must admit, I was also very disgusted with the turn WotC has taken the Realms)I actually went on to the site today to check out some of the ideas we had come up with in the thread...
Sage, I would like to hear your ideas. Time to play cleric and resurrect an old, dead thread! |
ShadowJack |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36787 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 01:12:11
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
The DeathGate Cycle!!! That's it!!! The Darksowrd trilogy! I have not heard about it for a long time! I loved that trilogy. I did not care for how it ended, but it was Excellent up until then!!!
There's actually a fourth Darksword book out now, too. Well, there's actually five... But Darksword Adventures is a combo of an anthology, a world guide, and a bit of a Player's Guide to Thimhallan. Legacy of the Darksword is an awesome continuation to the Darksword trilogy, though. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 02:11:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
The DeathGate Cycle!!! That's it!!! The Darksowrd trilogy! I have not heard about it for a long time! I loved that trilogy. I did not care for how it ended, but it was Excellent up until then!!!
There's actually a fourth Darksword book out now, too. Well, there's actually five... But Darksword Adventures is a combo of an anthology, a world guide, and a bit of a Player's Guide to Thimhallan. Legacy of the Darksword is an awesome continuation to the Darksword trilogy, though.
Heh. I didn't even know there was a fourth "Darksword" book. I'll have to look into that.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 02:13:58
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Sage, I would like to hear your ideas. Time to play cleric and resurrect an old, dead thread!
Great! I'll organise them into a format that other scribes, besides myself, can understand, and email them over to you.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 30 Jan 2009 02:14:28 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36787 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 03:39:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
The DeathGate Cycle!!! That's it!!! The Darksowrd trilogy! I have not heard about it for a long time! I loved that trilogy. I did not care for how it ended, but it was Excellent up until then!!!
There's actually a fourth Darksword book out now, too. Well, there's actually five... But Darksword Adventures is a combo of an anthology, a world guide, and a bit of a Player's Guide to Thimhallan. Legacy of the Darksword is an awesome continuation to the Darksword trilogy, though.
Heh. I didn't even know there was a fourth "Darksword" book. I'll have to look into that.
I stumbled across it entirely by chance a few years back... Much the same as I did with the Death's Gate Cycle and the Rose of the Prophet trilogy. Weis & Hickman are among the few that can sell me a book by putting their names on it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 04:18:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Its both.
-I gotta ask this. Did You ever play 4E? Just wondering.
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 05:46:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Its both.
-I gotta ask this. Did You ever play 4E? Just wondering.
BRIMSTONE
I did. I wasn't impressed.
But, personally, I don't think it's unreasonable to dislike the new edition without playing it. It's not a judgment about the rules. It's a judgment about WotC's notion that all they have to do is to tweak the rules a little, and we'll run out and buy a whole new set of books. Within reach of my arm I have $600 worth of 3e books that are now obsolte. There's at least another $400 on the shelf behind me. Then there are all the hundreds of dollars of 2e books and box sets on the shelf that are now even more obsolete thanks to the spellplague and the 100 yr time shift.
To hell with it. It's become too ridiculous, and I'm not going to participate in it anymore.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 05:59:58
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-I can respect that.
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 09:08:15
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[/quote]
I did. I wasn't impressed.
But, personally, I don't think it's unreasonable to dislike the new edition without playing it. It's not a judgment about the rules. It's a judgment about WotC's notion that all they have to do is to tweak the rules a little, and we'll run out and buy a whole new set of books. Within reach of my arm I have $600 worth of 3e books that are now obsolte. There's at least another $400 on the shelf behind me. Then there are all the hundreds of dollars of 2e books and box sets on the shelf that are now even more obsolete thanks to the spellplague and the 100 yr time shift.
[/quote]
I have to agree, I have the Old Grey Box, I built years of campaigns in 2Ed AD&D Realms, and was happy to accept the new world order of 3rd Ed and v3.5. I have built nations and npcs, and he pcs have molded there world and beome important npcs when they retire. So for all that has come before to be dismissed on whim and fancy by moving the game world forward beyond natural life spans of humans is just ridiculous.
It is much like the enjoyment I got from Alien and Aliens being rendered meaningless by everyone getting wiped out in the opening credits of Alien3.
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Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 09:36:27
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's a thing ShadowJack started about three years back. As I recall, it started as a simple question about minotaurs, and then, by the time the thread petered out, we'd created a city-state and partial history for it.
Cheers Wooly |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 13:28:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
The DeathGate Cycle!!! That's it!!! The Darksowrd trilogy! I have not heard about it for a long time! I loved that trilogy. I did not care for how it ended, but it was Excellent up until then!!!
There's actually a fourth Darksword book out now, too. Well, there's actually five... But Darksword Adventures is a combo of an anthology, a world guide, and a bit of a Player's Guide to Thimhallan. Legacy of the Darksword is an awesome continuation to the Darksword trilogy, though.
Heh. I didn't even know there was a fourth "Darksword" book. I'll have to look into that.
I stumbled across it entirely by chance a few years back... Much the same as I did with the Death's Gate Cycle and the Rose of the Prophet trilogy. Weis & Hickman are among the few that can sell me a book by putting their names on it.
Yeah, I stumbled upon the first two books of the Deathgate cycle in my local library, came home, and my dad told me that he already owned the first three. He gave me his copies too, because he said he could never get into them. That series was one of my favorite fantasy reads ever, up until the end. It kinda made me sad that I read a seven-book series, only to have it come to a bad ending. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 14:39:30
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| The Death Gate struck me as being a unique setting. I enjoyed all seven of the books, although I found the book set in the stone world to be very claustrophobic. Perhaps that was deliberate, if so it worked well. It's been a long time since I read them (10 years as a guess). The main thing which I didn't like was the appearance of Fizban (Zifnab), that seemed incongruous. Haplo and his dog, hmm perhaps I should read them again when my current to-read pile is diminished. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 16:53:13
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
But, personally, I don't think it's unreasonable to dislike the new edition without playing it.
I agree (and I actually like 4E). The reason I agree is because the argument never seems to apply to people who like 4E (or anything, really) without having tried it, or before it was even released. Then there is the "shifting of the goalposts" issue--first you aren't allowed to dislike something (4E, 4E Realms) until the first books for it are actually published, then you can't dislike it until a few more books have come out, then you can't dislike it until you've tried it, then you can't dislike it until you've tried it more than once, and on and on it goes. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 18:17:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I agree (and I actually like 4E).
It had a few good things about it. The things I liked, though, could be house-ruled into a third edition campaign easily. WotC could have come out with an Optional Rules supplement that would have sold like hot cakes without breaking anyone's campaign. They could have produced a FR-1470 campaign setting that would have sold well, too. They didn't need to shut down two popular product lines in the process. I don't wish it on them, but I believe they've made a bad decision and will suffer for it.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 20:08:57
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You don't have to try 4e to call judgement on it. You SHOULD look at the rules though, as homogenized and flavourless as they are.
I had some high hopes for the game, then I realized they are catering to the video game crowd, and playing grind after grind of combat got old quickly.
Problem is my game store may want me to run it for D&D game day. I can deal with it enough to run the game for people and keep my bias out of it (so the store can sell copies). If the packaged adventure they want run is anything like Keep on the Shadowfell, I might as well drink salt. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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I tried I really did
