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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 17:01:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by see
A game setting is not a place for the designers' stories, it's a place for the gamers' stories.
It does seem to me, based on recent comments by designers (ie. Bruce Cordell's "We were running out of room to tell stories in"), that the focus of the Realms setting is now seen by said designers as mainly a place for them to tell their stories in. If that's the case, it's definitely a trend I don't care for...
That's a good point... Game-wise, it's always been about letting DMs tell their own stories. Fiction-wise, though, the trend with 3E has been to make changes with every other trilogy -- moving the story-telling away from the DMs and making it purely designer-driven.
And this parallels one of the things I didn't like with Dragonlance: with one big, overarching story, it seemed like there wasn't room for other stories. So now I can see the designers feeling that way... But it's so full of mistakes that I still can't condone it. It was the designers that decided to only tell bigger and bigger stories. If they ran out of room, it was their own fault!
And that's not to mention the fact that they seem oblivious to the fact that smaller stories can be told. I almost fell out of my chair when I read the complaints that if one author used an area in a story, no one else could. The mindset of only telling big stories is the only way that complaint even approaches something making sense... |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 18:31:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It was the designers that decided to only tell bigger and bigger stories. If they ran out of room, it was their own fault!
I completely agree. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 18:58:44
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I thought the Return of the Archwizards came about with the introduction of shadow magic? I will agree that their return was to large of an impact on the world.
I wasn't aware of the Rage of Dragons, and don't know much of anything about it.... but is it on par with the Flight of the Dragons that happened in the Dales? |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 19:51:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
I thought the Return of the Archwizards came about with the introduction of shadow magic? I will agree that their return was to large of an impact on the world.
The Shadow Weave was around before Shade returned, but only a handful of people knew about it. Shade's return gave prominence to not only the Shadow Weave but to all things shadowy. 
I expected -- and was excited about -- Shade's return being the event causing the transition between rulesets. And I think with a little more tweaking, it could have served that function quite well. However, Shade's return did not provide an in-game explanation for anything that changed with the ruleset. It happened to be the first trilogy released for the 3E setting, but it wasn't connected to the 3E transition. Officially, most of the changes with the 3E transition were "always that way -- just no one about it".
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
I wasn't aware of the Rage of Dragons, and don't know much of anything about it.... but is it on par with the Flight of the Dragons that happened in the Dales?
Kinda sorta. Same basic effect, except the dragons didn't really rage too far south, and that this Rage was going to be a different one -- had it not been stopped by the heroes of the Rogue Dragon trilogy, it would have never ended. The trilogy is actually an enjoyable read, though I had a quibble with the party composition. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Jan 2009 19:53:28 |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 20:42:13
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
With or without novels, there is surely a desire to move the setting forwards and keep sales up; this is not a bad thing, it's the designers' job for crying out loud.
My response would be, no, it's not the designers' job. A game setting is not a place for the designers' stories, it's a place for the gamers' stories. Detailing the setting is the designers' job, but metaplot is malpractice. The timeline of a published game setting should never advance outside of the individual campaigns of groups.
(Exception: If you want to move the setting ahead a generation or so each time the game edition changes, that's okay. Keep new editions down to a reasonably slow rate, like every decade or so, and never advance the timeline during an edition.)
When it comes to commercial necessities, you've got at least a whole planet to detail, and you'll never manage to fill all the details given a hundred years.
I partially agree and partially disagree with you. I don't think that the designers should take over the Realms and basically ignore those who are trying to run campaigns in it. However, I enjoy reading (some of) the novels. I tend to like the ones that have smallers stories about individuals, but there were a few "RSE's" that weren't bad. I have mixed feelings about the ToT. I don't agree with telling the designers to butt out completely, but I don't think they should tell DM's and players to butt out, either. As to moving the campaign forward a generation, I tend to dislike those changes, but I understand that they can be necessary-just not if they decide to kill everyone off in the process. I didn't really have a problem with the 3e setup of move the campaign forward two years per five years real time. To me that kept things fresh without causing any drastic changes in and of itself. However, when they had an RSE every few months, it started to bother me.
EDIT: grammar |
Edited by - ranger_of_the_unicorn_run on 16 Jan 2009 20:43:11 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 21:30:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Shadow Weave was around before Shade returned, but only a handful of people knew about it. Shade's return gave prominence to not only the Shadow Weave but to all things shadowy.
I expected -- and was excited about -- Shade's return being the event causing the transition between rulesets. And I think with a little more tweaking, it could have served that function quite well. However, Shade's return did not provide an in-game explanation for anything that changed with the ruleset. It happened to be the first trilogy released for the 3E setting, but it wasn't connected to the 3E transition. Officially, most of the changes with the 3E transition were "always that way -- just no one about it".
I was excited as well, but was disappointed with the extent that the third book went to affecting the overall world. When I play out (if I get the chance) the events in the third book will go very differently.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Kinda sorta. Same basic effect, except the dragons didn't really rage too far south, and that this Rage was going to be a different one -- had it not been stopped by the heroes of the Rogue Dragon trilogy, it would have never ended. The trilogy is actually an enjoyable read, though I had a quibble with the party composition.
I'll check out the series, and leave my final judgement on this being a RSE (IMO) until done with the series.
This sounds less shattering than the destruction of Zhentil Keep.
Writing this post I realized why I'm not concerned with the RSEs..... I'm not in a long standing campaign in a consistent world.
Most of the Realm games I've been in were done by a GM that doesn't keep up on the happenings within the realms. With each campaign we played, it was as if the previous campaign never happened. The one campaign that was ran by a GM that kept up to speed on events, rewrote them to fit his campaign idea. He rolled with the events that directly affected our region, incorporating them in some fashion.
I WANT (desperately) to be in a long lasting campaign that lives within the Realms. One that would be affected by RSEs.... =( I guess then I could have a different perspective. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 23:26:43
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| My point was that the Realms are the designer's job: something they make a living out of. How they do their job is another matter, but they do have the right to run a profitable business. We can't put our heads in the sand and pretend everything would be fine if they didn't publish novels; the Realms would still more forwards, for good or ill, and the setting would keep changing. That's the way you get new material to sell. (Well, maybe the setting wouldn't move forwards as drastically, I'll give you that.) I am challenging the logic that novels, in and of themselves and as an autonomous force, somehow doomed the setting. If I wanted to say the setting has been doomed, I'd much rather blame the designers or, say, commercial success. But I personally have no illusions about the real world of coin: Forgotten Realms would never have become as big as it is today if novels weren't a big part of the franchise. I'm willing to hazard a guess: the Realms would be a long-buried product, had it stayed in its original state and not been popularized. While it's perfectly understandable many people prefer the Realms of old, it's very likely that it'd be the only material they have on the Realms if the product hadn't evolved. Or maybe I'm wrong; speculative history isn't very reliable. It's anyone's guess what would've happened to the Realms, but there's nothing keeping the nostalgic parties from sticking with only the material they feel comfortable using. It's OK to remember the good old days, but it's quite pointless to argue things should and could be just like then. (And I'm not saying anyone in this thread is doing that, specifically, but that's the vibe I got from reading the comments in that blog.) |
Edited by - IronAngel on 16 Jan 2009 23:28:43 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 23:44:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And this parallels one of the things I didn't like with Dragonlance: with one big, overarching story, it seemed like there wasn't room for other stories.
I can't agree with you on that Wooly. There are plenty of other stories in DRAGONLANCE, even when the "big, overarching story" takes the center stage in the fiction for a short while. Over the last 20 years, we've had other books and short stories published that either tie into the main overarching plot, or have established new material entirely. It's actually a common misconception that DRAGONLANCE fiction focuses directly on the one big story to the exclusion of all else. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 16 Jan 2009 23:46:21 |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2009 : 03:02:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And this parallels one of the things I didn't like with Dragonlance: with one big, overarching story, it seemed like there wasn't room for other stories.
I can't agree with you on that Wooly. There are plenty of other stories in DRAGONLANCE, even when the "big, overarching story" takes the center stage in the fiction for a short while. Over the last 20 years, we've had other books and short stories published that either tie into the main overarching plot, or have established new material entirely. It's actually a common misconception that DRAGONLANCE fiction focuses directly on the one big story to the exclusion of all else.
I found that the point in the Dragonlance setting I was able to get up to before stopping in disgust pretty much was one big story with little room for other stories. I stopped reading around the Chaos War Series, specifically The Puppet King. Normally I like Douglas Niles's writing quite a lot, but that book was pretty much a reiteration of what had already been said, and I just couldn't take reading the same things over and over. I think that the reason why they had to keep repeating was because the story focused around the writing of Weis and Hickman, leaving very little room for other authors to add to the setting. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2009 : 03:59:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And this parallels one of the things I didn't like with Dragonlance: with one big, overarching story, it seemed like there wasn't room for other stories.
I can't agree with you on that Wooly. There are plenty of other stories in DRAGONLANCE, even when the "big, overarching story" takes the center stage in the fiction for a short while. Over the last 20 years, we've had other books and short stories published that either tie into the main overarching plot, or have established new material entirely. It's actually a common misconception that DRAGONLANCE fiction focuses directly on the one big story to the exclusion of all else.
Well, I was reading the Dragginglance books when they were still only a handful of trilogies. I paid attention for a while after that, but then gave up. During that time, nothing happened to move the timeline forward unless Weis & Hickman wrote it. Everyone else kept going either into the recent past ("Here's a book about the third draconian from the left in Xak Tsaroth! Here's another about Tasslehoff's uncle's roommate's cousin's ex-girlfriend! And here's a third book that covers the past of this Companion of the Lance, and don't pay attention to the fact that they never again mentioned what was really quite an extraordinary adventure!") or into the distant past ("Ooh, another book about the best friend of this hero that's been dead for a thousand years!").
It never moved forwards, only sideways or backwards... And some of the tales either didn't make sense (seriously, Sturm wouldn't have later brought up a trip to the moon?) or actively contradicted later stories (Raistlin casts multiple polymorph spells before the Chronicles, and then in the beginning of the Chronicles has problems with sleep and wizard lock?).
By the time they got out of that trend (and yes, I will admit that they did, several years later), I had long since bailed on the setting out of both boredom and disgust. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2009 : 04:02:15
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And this parallels one of the things I didn't like with Dragonlance: with one big, overarching story, it seemed like there wasn't room for other stories.
I can't agree with you on that Wooly. There are plenty of other stories in DRAGONLANCE, even when the "big, overarching story" takes the center stage in the fiction for a short while. Over the last 20 years, we've had other books and short stories published that either tie into the main overarching plot, or have established new material entirely. It's actually a common misconception that DRAGONLANCE fiction focuses directly on the one big story to the exclusion of all else.
I found that the point in the Dragonlance setting I was able to get up to before stopping in disgust pretty much was one big story with little room for other stories. I stopped reading around the Chaos War Series, specifically The Puppet King. Normally I like Douglas Niles's writing quite a lot, but that book was pretty much a reiteration of what had already been said, and I just couldn't take reading the same things over and over. I think that the reason why they had to keep repeating was because the story focused around the writing of Weis and Hickman, leaving very little room for other authors to add to the setting.
Again, I can't quite agree with that interpretation. Granted, the overall plot of the DL setting was particularly narrowed during the Chaos War, but there have been other authors besides Weis & Hickman who have seized on the opportunities presented and added their own elements into the setting. That's always been one of the strengths of DRAGONLANCE -- that it can accommodate the personal views of other authors, and easily weave them into the setting as a whole. And it's a trend that's continued, even today where we see novels published that attempt to explore new areas of Ansalon/Krynn and new stories that have never even been hinted at before.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 17 Jan 2009 04:03:39 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2009 : 04:33:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, I was reading the Dragginglance books when they were still only a handful of trilogies. I paid attention for a while after that, but then gave up. During that time, nothing happened to move the timeline forward unless Weis & Hickman wrote it.
That's not entirely true. Both Knaak and Niles were also allowed to explore their own token characters and settings outside what had previously been plotted by Weis & Hickman.
quote:
Everyone else kept going either into the recent past ("Here's a book about the third draconian from the left in Xak Tsaroth! Here's another about Tasslehoff's uncle's roommate's cousin's ex-girlfriend! And here's a third book that covers the past of this Companion of the Lance, and don't pay attention to the fact that they never again mentioned what was really quite an extraordinary adventure!") or into the distant past ("Ooh, another book about the best friend of this hero that's been dead for a thousand years!").
Again, I find that's a misconception. The type of stories you reference here were often only included in anthologies, while new stories would feature in actual novels. Such as those focusing on the Plainsfolk for example -- which later set the trend for authors to explore other lands/peoples outside of the latest stories being crafted by Weis & Hickman.
quote:
It never moved forwards, only sideways or backwards...
I can't agree with that. As someone who has read practically all the DL novels published, I find this interpretation somewhat faulty. At best, the setting did move forward, but only very, very slowly, with hints of new elements and stories and characters sometimes being added as the timeline progressed. Even before the end of the Chaos War and the publication of Dragons of Summer Flame, which led to Weis & Hickman exploring other publishing alternates outside of DL, new authors and new tales were starting to appear.
quote:
By the time they got out of that trend (and yes, I will admit that they did, several years later), I had long since bailed on the setting out of both boredom and disgust.
Fair enough. Though, I think that's unfortunate. You've missed a great deal.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2009 : 05:19:01
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| Even though this Dlance conversation is way off topic, I have to agree with Sage's posts about Dlance since I'm another who has read every Dlance novel published. Or at least, I have every Dlance novel that has been published even if six, or so, of them are sitting in my to be read stacks. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 02:44:29
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Well, I will grant that we'd still have had metaplot without the novels, because every non-defunct gaming property got stuck with metaplot starting in the 1980s. And it's possible to have novels without metaplot. But the two do seem to feed on each other.
As far as the profit, well, yes, the Realms minus the novels would have made less money for TSR. Given that lightning striking twice (first Dragonlance, then FR) only inspired TSR to launch even more combined game-novel lines, which in their proliferation then killed the company, I'm not sure whether that would have been a bad thing. |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2009 : 02:56:04
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| The Forgotten Realms probably wouldn't have lasted as a product line if it weren't for the money made off of novels, though. And I happen to like most FR novels. Just because there are a few bad ones doesn't mean that the entire series needs to be thrown out. Yes, commercial success will often lead to watered-down, sensationalistic stories, but without the commercial success, it may not be possible to get any stories or gaming material now. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 01:56:09
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I didn't really have a problem with the 3e setup of move the campaign forward two years per five years real time. To me that kept things fresh without causing any drastic changes in and of itself.
Over time I've decided I have a problem with it, because IMO it was a contributing factor to the problem I mentioned in my previous posts*.
Also, I don't think I need the setting to be "freshened up" by the people currently in charge of it. If I want to change something, I can change it to my own tastes--I don't need someone else doing that for me, especially not with RSEs.
*That is, the setting revolves around the stories the designers want to tell--its role as a setting for gamers/fans to tell their own stories in is secondary. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Jan 2009 01:59:44 |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 08:28:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
It does seem to me, based on recent comments by designers (ie. Bruce Cordell's "We were running out of room to tell stories in"), that the focus of the Realms setting is now seen by said designers as mainly a place for them to tell their stories in. If that's the case, it's definitely a trend I don't care for...
In this Rino and I could be twins. This was one of the reasons I decided against purchasing any novels set post-Spellplague. Both the Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy and Blades of the Moonsea trilogy are written by 4th Edition designers, and that makes up half of the current series of novels set in the (post-Spellplague) Realms. I would seem to lose out on Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep and The Wilds, but I can currently live with that. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 15:35:54
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Kyrene, I respect your choice, but if you can find a public library with copies of the "Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep" novels, I urge you to give them a chance. Thus far, they have all been superb, and (except for BLACKSTAFF TOWER, which is of course a sequel to BLACKSTAFF) are standalone one-shots. That of necessity keeps their stories small-scale and more tightly focused on a few characters, rather than pushing every book to be an RSE. I've liked what I've read so far that I'd like to see more stories "starring" the protagonists, and I know Ed is VERY pleased with them.
We discussed this very matter: those who don't want any part of the 4e Realms reading them or not reading them, and he told me he hopes people take a look at them, even if they rationalize it as being an "alternative Waterdeep on a parallel plane of existence, or something of the sort. They're just great READS, and one can never have too many of those."
So, please, take a look. You can always close the book if you don't like what you're reading - - and if it's a library copy, it costs you nothing (assuming you return them on time, or glance at them in the library).
And just to nudge this scroll back towards its root topic, I praise Ed Greenwood as one of the nicest, most generous men I have ever known, as well as one of the most versatile and talented designers, writers, editors, and voice-over people, too. He doesn't talk about all the assists he's given to others down the years, but a LOT of fantasy and sf writers, artists, editors, and game designers have been "aided by Ed" down the years . . . to say nothing of scribes here at Candlekeep.
love,
THO |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 19:58:51
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Well, I'd certainly be willing to give them a look, THO, at some point in the future. Sadly for me, like others have said, the number of RSEs, Chosen characters and generally the way a god sneezes and some far flung part of the Realms disintegrates have completely dampened any enjoyment I had in the realms. The Sword Never Sleeps will almost certainly be my last realms novel.
The gods have always played a strong part in the Realms' fiction but less so in the source materiel. The contradiction between players driving events in a campaign and gods (or their chosen) driving events in a novel has split the focus of the Fan crowd and the readership far outweight the RPG fans. As a result, FR has long sinced ceased to be driven by adventures the way a D&D setting should be. It's become driven by novel sales.
The simple fact is, good story has replaced good adventure. Those two concepts don't sound incompatable but in certain ways they are, at least in this context. In an adventure, the player should be making the decisions. In a story, the player is little other than a spectator. A person maybe entertained either way but they're different forms of entertainment and RPG enthusiasts typically prefer participation to spectatorship.
I guess at it's heart, the reason why so many players (as opposed to readers) feel disapointed with 4th edition is because, as the setting has become more and more novel centric, it's become more and more obvious that players have no impact on events.
RSEs unconciously always brought a subtle emphasis on to the powerlessness of the player in that 'event'. Over time, it's come to feel like a repeated rejection of players in favour of readers and 4th, with it's major changes despite promises of no more RSEs has come as the biggest rejection yet.
For all the designers good intentions, 4th edition has felt to a lot of players like a metaphorical slap in the face.
For that reason the Forgotten Realms has failed as an RPG. These days it belongs on the shelf next to Middle Earth or Westeros: a classic fantasy world but one that no longer belongs on the RPG shelf.
I think some of us have known that a long time but have always hoped otherwise.
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Edited by - BlackAce on 20 Jan 2009 20:09:09 |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 07:28:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Kyrene, I respect your choice, but if you can find a public library with copies of the "Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep" novels, I urge you to give them a chance.
Lovely THO,
Well for the record, the books in "the other two" series are all still on my wishlist at Take2 (one of our better South African online stores).quote:
Thus far, they have all been superb, and (except for BLACKSTAFF TOWER, which is of course a sequel to BLACKSTAFF) are standalone one-shots.
I did not like Blackstaff muchactually I'd say I almost disliked itso that's not really a selling point, but I do like the work of the other authors for that series. The Wilds is currently a dark horse for me, as I like James' work, but have never heard, not read Jenna.quote:
They're just great READS, and one can never have too many of those."
I would disagree, but leave it at that so as to prevent too much OT-ness.quote:
So, please, take a look. You can always close the book if you don't like what you're reading - - and if it's a library copy, it costs you nothing (assuming you return them on time, or glance at them in the library).
Slim hope there, unfortunately. In some things, South Africa is still very much a third world country. We have at most one public library per town/city, often ill funded, so the chances of finding any Realms novel in one are slim to none. Nonetheless, I will heed your adviceand that of others like Erik and Rinoand keep an open mind. As I said, they are on my wishlist. Time will tell if I open my wallet as wide as my mind...
We now return you to the Praise of Ed Greenwood... |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 15:43:53
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Kyrene,
Your signature on the spellplague is BRILLIANT.
Good job!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 15:51:18
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| I'll read the new Waterdeep novels, if for no other reason than Ed's seal of approval. |
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Ifthir
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 16:03:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Rage of Dragons was technically an RSE, and it affected a good-sized portion of the Realms... But really, what was the end result? A few less dragons.
We must have been reading different novels. I got a lot more out of that series than "A few less dragons". While I may not have been the biggest fan of the party that ran that series of novels, I absolutely loved some of the loose ends it tied up. That said, I concur that RSE's in the novels did to some degree adversely affect the realms. Call it the WoW affect, but when every book has to be bigger/badder than the last one, it stops being about the quality of content, and starts being about who can make their book the 'shiniest'. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 16:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ifthir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Rage of Dragons was technically an RSE, and it affected a good-sized portion of the Realms... But really, what was the end result? A few less dragons.
We must have been reading different novels. I got a lot more out of that series than "A few less dragons". While I may not have been the biggest fan of the party that ran that series of novels, I absolutely loved some of the loose ends it tied up.
Well, yeah, there was more of a result than that. But I'm talking about the total end result, as applied to all of the Realms. Most of the setting was untouched by the Rage -- though it should have caused problems everywhere, most of where things went bad was localized to a smaller area, and most of what happened didn't have a long-lasting effect. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 16:40:12
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| -The Realms of the Dragons I and II novel anthologies do a good job at demonstrating how the Rage of the Dragons impacted Dragons all across the planet. Remember, the Dracorage Mythal that caused the Rage of the Dragon was keyed to encompass all of Faerūn (and presumably, the rest of the planet). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 17:02:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-The Realms of the Dragons I and II novel anthologies do a good job at demonstrating how the Rage of the Dragons impacted Dragons all across the planet. Remember, the Dracorage Mythal that caused the Rage of the Dragon was keyed to encompass all of Faerūn (and presumably, the rest of the planet).
Even having read those, I still came away with the impression that outside of the Moonsea and Bloodstone area, the Rage didn't have much effect. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1727 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 19:12:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
And just to nudge this scroll back towards its root topic, I praise Ed Greenwood as one of the nicest, most generous men I have ever known, as well as one of the most versatile and talented designers, writers, editors, and voice-over people, too. He doesn't talk about all the assists he's given to others down the years, but a LOT of fantasy and sf writers, artists, editors, and game designers have been "aided by Ed" down the years . . . to say nothing of scribes here at Candlekeep.
love,
THO
What she said goes double for me. Other than my dearly missed grandfather, I can't think of a more patient man on this planet more dedicated to sharing his time and talents with others than Ed. I'm not being facetious when I call him one of my mentors, and I don't think I could ever have asked for a better one.
Steven
One of those aided over the years |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 19:55:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by see
A game setting is not a place for the designers' stories, it's a place for the gamers' stories.
It does seem to me, based on recent comments by designers (ie. Bruce Cordell's "We were running out of room to tell stories in"), that the focus of the Realms setting is now seen by said designers as mainly a place for them to tell their stories in. If that's the case, it's definitely a trend I don't care for...
That's a good point... Game-wise, it's always been about letting DMs tell their own stories. Fiction-wise, though, the trend with 3E has been to make changes with every other trilogy -- moving the story-telling away from the DMs and making it purely designer-driven.
And this parallels one of the things I didn't like with Dragonlance: with one big, overarching story, it seemed like there wasn't room for other stories. So now I can see the designers feeling that way... But it's so full of mistakes that I still can't condone it. It was the designers that decided to only tell bigger and bigger stories. If they ran out of room, it was their own fault!
And that's not to mention the fact that they seem oblivious to the fact that smaller stories can be told. I almost fell out of my chair when I read the complaints that if one author used an area in a story, no one else could. The mindset of only telling big stories is the only way that complaint even approaches something making sense...
Going to have to go along with this - and excellent point (as usual) Rinon.
I came to the Realms (kicking and screaming) from Greyhawk - I was gamer first, and didn't become a (D&D) novel-reader until years later.
I have to say, I started reading the novels just to get setting-lore... and pretty-much still do for that reason. 'Enjoyability' rarely enters into it (its a nice bonus when it happens, though).
I think the only thing that is worse then the comic-book 'Villain-of-the-month' style of prentation regarding RSEs, is the fact that very few of them really have any sort of lasting effects. Even the ToT, aside from US (as in, the players/DM/fans) knowing about gods who died, in what way did it realy impact the realms at all? 
I actually found it completely bizarre that everything went back to 'business as usual' immediately following the ToT. Where was the renewed 'religous fervor'? Where was the fallen churches of the dead gods? Why weren't any wars fought?
It just seems to me that the RSEs existed just to give 'BOOM!' to certain novels, because there really were no lasting effects... AT ALL. 
On the other hand, we have the sheer brilliance of Elaine Cunningham - her Liriel series was small in regards to the Realms. No RSE, and very few people were directly effected by the events surrounding the two main characters...
And yet it changed the Realms in a VERY dramatic way for all time. She managed to explain why Drow are walking around on the surface -something RAS never bothered to do - which in-itself should be an RSE... but WASN'T.
She probably made the single greatest cultural change to the Realms since Ed built them, and she managed to slip it completely under-the-radar.
Anyone can blow-up a moon, lay waste to a Kingdom, have gods fight, and bring back uber-baddies from a 'parallel dimension'... but it takes incredible talent to NOT do that and still have a lasting effect on the setting.
When the trials and tribulations of a lone girl and her barbarian companion have a much greater effect then gods, cities, and planets falling to earth (or Toril, in this case), we have to ask ourselves...
Was it the novels that ruined our Realms, or was it the quality of those novels?
I can probably think of maybe a dozen that actually contributed to my love of the setting, and thats just plain sad, considering how many I have read (or avoided).
BTW, I am not belittling any one author here (although you may read that by one of my examples - and he happens to be one of my favorite authors). The problem stems from every author trying to out 'Michael Bey' each other - they shouldn't feel the need for that, and yet I'm seeing quite a bit of that 'one-upmanship' that killed off other shared worlds, like the phenomenal Thieves World series. They (all) need to put less explosions and special-effects n their work, and concentrate more on GOOD story-telling.
By way of example - one of my favorite Drizzt stories centered around his relatinship with a Goblin! Its easy to write an entertaining story about a dragon - you'd have a hard time making it un-interesting - but when you can pull a reader into a story about a lowly Goblin, then THAT's the sign of a GREAT author.
And THAT's why I tend not to dis RAS, when everyone else does, because I know he has it in him to tell great stories... if only he could lose that Albatross of a Drow that hangs from his neck.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jan 2009 20:05:02 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 20:33:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Even having read those, I still came away with the impression that outside of the Moonsea and Bloodstone area, the Rage didn't have much effect.
-A trilogy focusing on a specific group of adventurers, and two short-story anthologies taking place all over Faerūn, in various times, can only do so much justice. The Rage of the Dragons certainly did take place all over the continent. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 21 Jan 2009 20:33:58 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 20:37:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Was it the novels that ruined our Realms, or was it the quality of those novels?
-Hey, don't forget. The Forgotten Realms, first and foremost, was a novel setting. 
-That said, it isn't necessarily the quality of various novels (in terms of technical writing prowess and such), but rather, as you allude to, a "Cold War build-up", in terms of the events and outcomes in major novel trilogies. Compare, say, the lasting effects of the Moonshae trilogy to the lasting effects of, say, the Last Mythal trilogy. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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In Praise of Ed Greenwood
