| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 22:20:29
|
Great blog entry from the old school blog 'Grognardia', all about how the Forgotten Realms of the Old Grey Box is really a fabulous, old school setting.
Good read, and I figured I'd post something positive here for once. 
|
|
|
Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 22:43:55
|
| Forgive my ignorance, but what are the characteristics of a product that would be considered "old school" in this case. Reading the article it is not at all clear to me. If you'll forgive my saying so, the article makes the author and seem like a reactionary, rpg Luddite. What is the rpg tradition that s/he seeks to protect? |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 07 Jan 2009 22:44:32 |
 |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 22:53:14
|
Interesting.
I second the blog author's recommendation that all those still not sure about Ed should go back and read his earliest DRAGON articles [if they can find them]. 'Tis some of the best RPG material I've ever had the pleasure of reading.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 02:04:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
Forgive my ignorance, but what are the characteristics of a product that would be considered "old school" in this case. Reading the article it is not at all clear to me. If you'll forgive my saying so, the article makes the author and seem like a reactionary, rpg Luddite. What is the rpg tradition that s/he seeks to protect?
Well, from what I gathered from reading some of his links interspersed through the article, he's a believer in the Gygax minimalist detail. In other words, a rich lore and history in the background, but lots of breathing room for a DM to make the world his own.
At least that's what I took away from his blog. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 03:28:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
Forgive my ignorance, but what are the characteristics of a product that would be considered "old school" in this case. [...] What is the rpg tradition that s/he seeks to protect?
Well, from what I gathered from reading some of his links interspersed through the article, he's a believer in the Gygax minimalist detail. In other words, a rich lore and history in the background, but lots of breathing room for a DM to make the world his own.
At least that's what I took away from his blog.
Thanks Ashe, that helps. I went back and had a look at some of the links you mentioned. It would seem that the author considers the golden Age of D&D to be pre-1980s when, among other things, the pursuit of physical realism in the rules (Gygaxian Naturalism) and the absence of pre-existing "stories" (the Hickman Revolution) in modules and campaign settings was the norm. |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 08 Jan 2009 04:04:19 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 23:00:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
Forgive my ignorance, but what are the characteristics of a product that would be considered "old school" in this case. Reading the article it is not at all clear to me. If you'll forgive my saying so, the article makes the author and seem like a reactionary, rpg Luddite. What is the rpg tradition that s/he seeks to protect?
As I read the article I found myself wondering the same thing.
I do agree with his general comments on Ed Greenwood, though. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
silverwizard
Seeker
Greece
76 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 23:53:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Interesting.
I second the blog author's recommendation that all those still not sure about Ed should go back and read his earliest DRAGON articles [if they can find them]. 'Tis some of the best RPG material I've ever had the pleasure of reading.
Would you be so kind as to give us the numbers of the magazines you're referring to? Now let me try to remember where I put that DRAGON Magazine Archive CD-ROM... |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2009 : 00:05:31
|
The easiest way for me to identify the relevant issues is to simply direct you to the DragonDex here, which includes a listing of all Ed's DRAGON articles [just scroll down to Greenwood, Ed]. There you'll find every article written by the Great Bearded One. His earliest Realms articles are included in the early issues, such as "The Merry Month of . . .Mirtul?" in #47 and "Down-To-Earth Divinity" in #54, for example.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2009 : 12:00:05
|
| James's blog is certainly worth reading. The actual details of what he says are much more insightful than trying to read them into the stereotype that his blog's title is a gentle mockery of. |
|
|
|
silverwizard
Seeker
Greece
76 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2009 : 16:21:22
|
| Thank you Sage, that index is indeed very useful (_bookmarked_) |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2009 : 18:16:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
James's blog is certainly worth reading. The actual details of what he says are much more insightful than trying to read them into the stereotype that his blog's title is a gentle mockery of.
I agree...I found myself spending an hour or two last night reading this blog. His ideas on what D&D "really is"/"should be" aren't all necessarily my own, but I do think a lot of the articles make for insightful reading. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 08:08:59
|
-Thanks for the link. 
I found this comment very interesting: The success of the Realms novels, starting with The Crystal Shard in 1988, more or less doomed the setting to its current state, but Ed is hardly to blame for that. That is what I came to believe awhile back. I like the novels, but I think that they ruined the setting. That and TSR/WotC's need to make money. Not downing them, they are/were a business after all. 
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 22:41:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Thanks for the link.
I found this comment very interesting: The success of the Realms novels, starting with The Crystal Shard in 1988, more or less doomed the setting to its current state, but Ed is hardly to blame for that. That is what I came to believe awhile back. I like the novels, but I think that they ruined the setting. That and TSR/WotC's need to make money. Not downing them, they are/were a business after all.
If the novels really did "ruin the setting", then it was a certain type of novel (the "big plot" novels) that did that. Also, I've read several blog entries, and the author believes (and gives evidence for said belief) that the novel-based/advancing timeline setting trend really began with the Dragonlance setting, not the Realms setting. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Jan 2009 22:43:40 |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
|
|
danbuter
Seeker
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 17:49:38
|
| I'd say the novels really screwed over the setting in certain instances, especially the Time of Troubles. Not as much as Dark Sun was ruined, but they didn't help it at all. |
Nothing beats the gray box!
Dan |
|
|
|
IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 18:22:36
|
| I doubt one can expect "conclusive evidence" on a matter of preference, you know. I disagree that the novels doomed the setting, but then I'm a younger generation fan, introduced to the setting via novels and getting my first game experience online with Neverwinter Nights. I'm a fan of the diversity and the amount of information, not simplicity. Novels both bring the setting alive and move it forwards in an interesting, immediate way. It is much more interesting to read the events that lead to, say, Kymil Nimesin's attack on Evermeet and the destruction of the Towers, in a novel than simply as a footnote in a game product. With or without novels, there is surely a desire to move the setting forwards and keep sales up; this is not a bad thing, it's the designers' job for crying out loud. Sometimes the changes are good, sometimes they're horrible, but them being detailed in novels (or not) has little to do with it. If novels weren't published, the product line probably wouldn't be profitable. Though to be honest, I couldn't help but grimace at some of the events that took place in Last Mythal. |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 18:25:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
I doubt one can expect "conclusive evidence" on a matter of preference, you know.
-Exactly. It's a common trope that it flung around with far too much certainty. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerűn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerűn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 15 Jan 2009 18:26:12 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 18:29:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Yeah, I am still waiting for some conclusive evidence that the "novels ruined the setting". 
Ditto -- especially considering how many people -- myself included! -- came to the setting after reading the novels. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 20:59:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Yeah, I am still waiting for some conclusive evidence that the "novels ruined the setting".
Ditto -- especially considering how many people -- myself included! -- came to the setting after reading the novels.
I am also on that list, which is a large reason why I don't like 4e; it destroys, drastically alters (not in good ways IMO), or otherwise invalidates places and people in my favorite novels. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 23:20:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by danbuter
I'd say the novels really screwed over the setting in certain instances, especially the Time of Troubles.
The Time of Troubles wasn't exclusively a novel-specific event though. So I'm not sure how you can claim this. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 23:32:48
|
Are there any RSEs that didn't involve a change in the rules? I don't think these situations are Chicken or the Egg. I feel that the rule change was coming, we just got a novel to explain the event in game.
Though some are counting things like the death of King Azoun as an RSE. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
|
|
|
ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 23:46:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Exactly. It's a common trope that it flung around with far too much certainty.
But all it needs is the addition of "for me" at the end in order to be an unassailable truth. From WotC's point of view, though, they've probably gained far more adherents for the setting than they've lost, and meanwhile, they've raked in the money from the novels.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The Time of Troubles wasn't exclusively a novel-specific event though.
All I would ask is that they publish an adventure for every RSE in the novels, so that the players can be involved in the events. That's my main beef with the way things have been done. The setting moves forward, yes, but it steamrolls home campaigns, and leaves the DM feeling like an extraneous part of the setting. He's like the actor who walks onstage and tells the audience all about the wonderful, exciting things that are happening offstage. Sure, he's free to try to work the events into his setting, but it should be the game designers' job to support him by giving him the materials to do that. Otherwise there's no incentive for the DM to follow them forward, if he's got to do all the work anyway.
|
--
Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 03:12:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
Are there any RSEs that didn't involve a change in the rules?
Yeah, all but two of them. The Time of Troubles was for the 1E to 2E transition. The Sellplague was for the 3.5E to 4E transition. The only other rule changes were from 2E to 3E and from 3E to 3.5E -- and the latter was too small to merit an RSE, thinks I. Of course, so was the 1E/2E transition, in my opinion, but that doesn't mean I have anything against that particular RSE. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 03:43:43
|
quote:
Yeah, all but two of them.
What are the other RSEs then?
What constitutes a RSE?
|
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
|
|
|
Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 06:04:07
|
| The Return of the Archwizards and the Rage of Dragons were two RSEs without any changes rule-wise. Only two examples. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 07:18:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
quote:
Yeah, all but two of them.
What are the other RSEs then?
What constitutes a RSE?
Realms-Shaking Event. An major event that effects a large portion of the Realms. As Ayunken noted, the Rage of Dragons and the Return of the Archwizards are excellent examples. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
sneakypetev
Acolyte
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 09:49:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
I doubt one can expect "conclusive evidence" on a matter of preference, you know. I disagree that the novels doomed the setting, but then I'm a younger generation fan, introduced to the setting via novels and getting my first game experience online with Neverwinter Nights. I'm a fan of the diversity and the amount of information, not simplicity. Novels both bring the setting alive and move it forwards in an interesting, immediate way. It is much more interesting to read the events that lead to, say, Kymil Nimesin's attack on Evermeet and the destruction of the Towers, in a novel than simply as a footnote in a game product. With or without novels, there is surely a desire to move the setting forwards and keep sales up; this is not a bad thing, it's the designers' job for crying out loud. Sometimes the changes are good, sometimes they're horrible, but them being detailed in novels (or not) has little to do with it. If novels weren't published, the product line probably wouldn't be profitable. Though to be honest, I couldn't help but grimace at some of the events that took place in Last Mythal.
I was going to post but you covered the way I feel and I am an oder generation FR fan. |
"Go for the eyes boo,go for the eyes!"- Minsc |
|
|
|
see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 13:51:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
With or without novels, there is surely a desire to move the setting forwards and keep sales up; this is not a bad thing, it's the designers' job for crying out loud.
My response would be, no, it's not the designers' job. A game setting is not a place for the designers' stories, it's a place for the gamers' stories. Detailing the setting is the designers' job, but metaplot is malpractice. The timeline of a published game setting should never advance outside of the individual campaigns of groups.
(Exception: If you want to move the setting ahead a generation or so each time the game edition changes, that's okay. Keep new editions down to a reasonably slow rate, like every decade or so, and never advance the timeline during an edition.)
When it comes to commercial necessities, you've got at least a whole planet to detail, and you'll never manage to fill all the details given a hundred years. |
|
|
|
ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 15:26:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Realms-Shaking Event.
I thought it was Realms-Shattering...
quote:
An major event that effects a large portion of the Realms.
That's the definition, but I think many people consider any event that makes a major change to the area where their campaign is centered to be an RSE. Perhaps a better term would be Campaign-Shattering Event. That would sum up why people don't like them.
|
--
Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 16:10:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Realms-Shaking Event.
I thought it was Realms-Shattering...
Yeah, that one works, too, but Shaking is the one I see most oft.
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
An major event that effects a large portion of the Realms.
That's the definition, but I think many people consider any event that makes a major change to the area where their campaign is centered to be an RSE. Perhaps a better term would be Campaign-Shattering Event. That would sum up why people don't like them.
I don't like them because a lot of the recent ones have either been pointless or haven't really affected the Realms at large. The Rage of Dragons was technically an RSE, and it affected a good-sized portion of the Realms... But really, what was the end result? A few less dragons.
The other reason I don't like them is because they remind me of super-hero comic books. In super-hero comics, every other issue has some massive threat that could end all of existence... It's kind of a "villain of the week" thing. And since comic book time advances so slowly, for the characters, it's basically two or three times a week that they have to go save the universe.
The end result is that all of these things kinda blur together, and they lose their impact. A new villain every month or an RSE every 6 months: it has the same result. You keep seeing variations on the theme of "save the world", and after a while, they lose their impact. It's hard to get excited about something or even concerned about it when you know something similar is just around the corner, and that there's a line of them after that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 16:19:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by see
A game setting is not a place for the designers' stories, it's a place for the gamers' stories.
It does seem to me, based on recent comments by designers (ie. Bruce Cordell's "We were running out of room to tell stories in"), that the focus of the Realms setting is now seen by said designers as mainly a place for them to tell their stories in. If that's the case, it's definitely a trend I don't care for... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Jan 2009 16:21:08 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
In Praise of Ed Greenwood
