Not, strictly speaking, true. It began as Ed's SHORT STORY setting, for narrow-focus stories about the travelling merchant Mirt the Moneylender, NOT for novels (which of necessity tell larger stories, and "change things" more in doing so). Yet your point about the ruination and "arms race" fiction creep stands, and I don't deny it. love, THO
Going to have to go along with this - and excellent point (as usual) Rinon.
Thank you.
quote:Was it the novels that ruined our Realms, or was it the quality of those novels?
I would actually reword the question. The problem with the novels, as I see it, was that they were used (not in all cases, but in many cases) as a way to change the setting--I'm talking big changes, here--and "move the timeline forward" rather than just as a way of telling fun stories about the Realms (which is really all *I* want from them). To put it bluntly, I see it as a case of putting the cart before the horse.
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time)
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 21 Jan 2009 21:18:51
Quality isn't the issue. You can have a well written RSE, or a poorly written small story. The issue for DMs is how the story affects his campaign. Novels, or even game material events, that wipe out years of work developing an area of the Realms are highly irritating. A DM who had a long-running second edition campaign based in Tilverton had to be extremely aggravated by the city of Shade suddenly popping into the Realms, and for no apparent reason, reducing Tilverton to a pile of rubble. Every NPC, every business, and every plothook that he had developed over the years were wiped out in an instant.
True, there probably weren't a huge number of DMs affected by the loss of Tilverton. Maybe it's the one city that a majority of Realms DMs would have voted off the continent. But when you multiply such events by all the RSEs that have occurred in the Realms, you end up with a lot of aggravated DMs. Yes, they can ignore the events. What happens, though, when they are ignoring so much that the current version of the Realms has nothing to do with their campaign? We're going to find out.
Not, strictly speaking, true. It began as Ed's SHORT STORY setting, for narrow-focus stories about the travelling merchant Mirt the Moneylender, NOT for novels (which of necessity tell larger stories, and "change things" more in doing so). Yet your point about the ruination and "arms race" fiction creep stands, and I don't deny it. love, THO
-Novels isn't the proper term, true. Literature. Stories. The Forgotten Realms, first and foremost, was a story-telling setting, which is ultimately the point I was making with my last post.
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
-The Realms of the Dragons I and II novel anthologies do a good job at demonstrating how the Rage of the Dragons impacted Dragons all across the planet. Remember, the Dracorage Mythal that caused the Rage of the Dragon was keyed to encompass all of Faerûn (and presumably, the rest of the planet).
The Dragons of Faerûn tome would seem to suggest much the same.
Not, strictly speaking, true. It began as Ed's SHORT STORY setting, for narrow-focus stories about the travelling merchant Mirt the Moneylender, NOT for novels (which of necessity tell larger stories, and "change things" more in doing so).
Indeed. And Ed has touched on this several times in his replies about the origin of the Realms, and its eventual shift into a TSR-based campaign setting. Well worth the read for anyone interested in those early days of Realmslore.
As for the rest of the Realms and 4E in general, what's the status of things, in your humble opinions? I haven't been on these boards for a while now, hanging around on the Paizo side, and I am curious about that... my FLGS tells me 4E ain't selling as much as they thought.
What about the rest of North America, and the world beyond, for that matter?
Still no idea on the sales of 4E. I do notice that the PDF's top DriveThruRPG's bestsellers list for two or three weeks after release, then drop down the list.
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Most people here wouldn't have any idea as to the statistics of how well 4E is selling.
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time)
Only indication I've seen is Swedish RPG-magazine Fenix saying that "Wizard of the Coast's steamroller launch of 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons continues apace."
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist. Terry Pratchett
Well, well, well... This is interesting. Open Grave was released last week on DriveThruRPG at #1, but it's already dropped to #3 this week. This is the quickest drop I've seen on the site for 4E yet. Doesn't mean anything at all regarding overall sales, but thought I'd mention it.
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
As for the rest of the Realms and 4E in general, what's the status of things, in your humble opinions? I haven't been on these boards for a while now, hanging around on the Paizo side, and I am curious about that... my FLGS tells me 4E ain't selling as much as they thought.
What about the rest of North America, and the world beyond, for that matter?
To be honest, I don't know how well $E is selling. My main sources of information are Amazon and carefully worded Google searches, which more often than not send me to EN World.
Monte Cook's blog is always worth a read. He writes a few entries about the passing of d20.
The Amazon stat's are as follows:
Amazon.co.uk Sales Rank: 125,274 in Books Popular in these categories: #5 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Authors, A-Z > G > Greenwood, Ed #42 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Gaming > Dungeons & Dragons
Amazon.com Sales Rank: #20,971 in Books #1 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Authors, A-Z > ( G ) > Greenwood, Ed #12 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Gaming > Dungeons & Dragons #34 in Books > Entertainment > Puzzles & Games > Role Playing & Fantasy
Amazon.de Verkaufsrang: #30,158 in Englische Bücher Beliebt in diesen Kategorien: #4 in Englische Bücher > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Authors, A-Z > ( G ) > Greenwood, Ed #47 in Englische Bücher > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Gaming #92 in Englische Bücher > Entertainment > Puzzles & Games > Role Playing & Fantasy
The popularity may not be based on overall sales, but I think that the sales rank probably is.
It would be nice to know how well $E is doing. However, finding an unbiased source and one which gives the exact figures, plus valid comparisons is proving difficult.
As a point of interest with the Amazon figures, it's interesting to see that $E gets a lower ranking then its 3E predecessor. Of course, bitter critics are more likely to vent their spleen and internet access is much greater now then it was.
Personally I think the issue of how well 4E (or the 4E Realms) is selling is a red herring. If I don't like something, it doesn't really matter to me how popular it might happen to be with others. I'm not going to rush out and buy something just because "everybody else" is.
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time)
Personally I think the issue of how well 4E (or the 4E Realms) is selling is a red herring. If I don't like something, it doesn't really matter to me how popular it might happen to be with others. I'm not going to rush out and buy something just because "everybody else" is.
I don't think anyone is advocating making a purchase based on popularity... I think people have a real desire to know how it's selling. After all, 4E has caused a lot of changes, both to the game and to our favorite setting. It'd be nice to know if it's looking like a success or looking like a failure.
Personally I think the issue of how well 4E (or the 4E Realms) is selling is a red herring. If I don't like something, it doesn't really matter to me how popular it might happen to be with others. I'm not going to rush out and buy something just because "everybody else" is.
I have a tendency of of avoiding popular things since they tend to be fads and don't have longevity. Plus there's something nice about having something that most people don't know about. I suspect most scribes don't rush out and buy something because everyone else is.
However, the sales figures are, to me, interesting for a number of reasons. If the figures are dire then that spells real trouble for our favoured setting since WotC may abandon the whole venture. If the figures are very good then that suggests that the Sellplague gamble worked and old timers like me have to make a real decision on the "adapt or die" question. If the figures are below expectation or average then that offers hope that a votre-face might be attempted in a way to boost sales.
Mostly though it'd be nice to see how other people outside of Candlekeep view the new edition. And the best indicator of that is the sales figures. Of course, I could visit the WotC boards but a popular song by Nirvana always begins sounding in my head when I do.
Here are some of the main common and divergent points:
-- both are influenced by largely the same group of mid-20th-century fantasy authors, with Fritz Leiber as a particular shared reference, and other independently arrived common points such as Vanceian magic and an underground setting which made the Realms and D&D easy fits for each other -- the Realms follows quite closely what Maliszewski calls Gygaxian naturalism (as it happens, I think that label's dubious because though Gary did partly think that way, he also gravitated to whimsical Zagygian zaniness and wargamism) -- emphasis on player-driven freewheeling adventurous joyful fun unencumbered by heavy rules -- the emergence of their worlds through D&D play, expanding from Greyhawk City/Castle on the one hand, and Waterdeep/Undermountain and Shadowdale/Myth Drannor on the other
-- Ed, a generation younger than Gary, is also influenced by some later high fantasy writers as well as more by Tolkien, is from a different country and doesn't share his religion or politics, so the societies he writes are different -- Ed has a joy for world-building for its own sake that Gary didn't (yet this shouldn't be overstated: Gary meant to publish Greyhawk regional sourcebooks, Epic of Ærth is a world-building feast, and there are whole expository pages in the Gord novels)
I don't think anyone is advocating making a purchase based on popularity... I think people have a real desire to know how it's selling. After all, 4E has caused a lot of changes, both to the game and to our favorite setting. It'd be nice to know if it's looking like a success or looking like a failure.
That's a good point--one that I overlooked when I wrote my post.
Faraer, thanks for sharing your thoughts on the blog post in question.
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time)
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 28 Jan 2009 16:24:51
Personally I think the issue of how well 4E (or the 4E Realms) is selling is a red herring. If I don't like something, it doesn't really matter to me how popular it might happen to be with others. I'm not going to rush out and buy something just because "everybody else" is.
I have a tendency of of avoiding popular things since they tend to be fads and don't have longevity. Plus there's something nice about having something that most people don't know about. I suspect most scribes don't rush out and buy something because everyone else is.
However, the sales figures are, to me, interesting for a number of reasons. If the figures are dire then that spells real trouble for our favoured setting since WotC may abandon the whole venture. If the figures are very good then that suggests that the Sellplague gamble worked and old timers like me have to make a real decision on the "adapt or die" question. If the figures are below expectation or average then that offers hope that a votre-face might be attempted in a way to boost sales.
Mostly though it'd be nice to see how other people outside of Candlekeep view the new edition. And the best indicator of that is the sales figures. Of course, I could visit the WotC boards but a popular song by Nirvana always begins sounding in my head when I do.
WOTC boards are pretty awful if you are not a 4th edition fanboy/girl.
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
WOTC boards are pretty awful if you are not a 4th edition fanboy/girl.
The general boards, probably, but the Forgotten Realms boards are pretty edition-neutral in both intent and practice.
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time)
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 29 Jan 2009 14:41:50
WOTC boards are pretty awful if you are not a 4th edition fanboy/girl.
The general boards, probably, but the Forgotten Realms boards are pretty edition-neutral in both intent and practice.
For the most part (i.e. 99.9%), anyway. There still occurs the occasional flame-up between parties, but it usually does not last long, then dies down again so we can discuss things civilly.
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
I find that when no-one - of either 'faction' - goes off about how great 'their' edition is, arguments NEVER flair-up. Pro-pre4e people are glad to help any 4e fans anyway they can when they ask questions... as long as they don't go on and on about how much 'better' FR is now.
Thats when things tend to get a little 'hot'.
I'm willing to help someone any way I can, but not when they are rubbing my nose in it.
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
quote:Originally posted by Markustay Pro-pre4e people are glad to help any 4e fans anyway they can when they ask questions... as long as they don't go on and on about how much 'better' FR is now.
I agree, I've noticed the same thing.
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time)
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 30 Jan 2009 16:44:56
Great blog entry from the old school blog 'Grognardia', all about how the Forgotten Realms of the Old Grey Box is really a fabulous, old school setting.
Good read, and I figured I'd post something positive here for once.
Cool Uzzy! I have so much love for The Old Grey Box. Thanks for the link
John
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
In Praise of Ed Greenwood
Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 21:09:38
